Can a BS cause a WS to cheat?

[JamesM]

James - I sure hope that you are sitting on the jury when I am tried for killing my WH "because he had an affair". Good to know that I will have some support for my position that he "caused" his own death!!

 

And I will persuade the rest of the jury. Hopefully, there will be no other WSs on the jury!

[flattened]

I can't tell if you are referring to yourself here or to your wife (or ex-wife). Did she not know how to communicate or did you not know how to or did both of you not know? Perhaps you are saying it wasn't easy for either one of you to communicate effectively.

 

On the topic of this thread, do you think your wife caused you to have an A and deceive her?

 

I guess it seemed clear when I wrote it. Let me try again. We both found it difficult to communicate effectively. That caused the rift between us to open up more.

 

I believe I tried much harder than my wife to understand how she was feeling and try to meet her needs than vice versa (before the affair). Not because she's bad or anything, that's just how it is. We went through pretty tough times, mostly very difficult for her, and I tried to be supportive. She just didn't clue in that I needed support too.

 

So, do I believe she caused me to have an affair? Well, my original point was that "cause" describes something unemotional and is so wrapped up with "blame" that it makes no sense in this context. Of course her behaviour contributed significantly to me being in a bad place emotionally. Of course if I wasn't there, I wouldn't have got involved with someone. Even in the state I was in, without circumstances being what they were, I wouldn't have got involved with someone - I wasn't looking for it.

 

It seems to me this discussion is really about putting blame on someone for what happened. You're either in the BS camp or the WS camp. And the other side is the enemy. In reality (in my case at least, but I suspect it's true in many if not most cases), it's really about human emotions, which are not subject to rational analysis. It's also about a terrible confluence of circumstances that lead to bad outcomes for everyone.

[BetrayedH]

Identifying a cause will help both the WS and the BS understand why the WS chose as he or she did.

 

The WS chose as he or she did because he or she was missing the character to decide otherwise. Absent the lack of character, the affair doesn't happen. The lack of character IS what needs to be understood.

[Furious]

The WS chose as he or she did because he or she was missing the character to decide otherwise. Absent the lack of character, the affair doesn't happen. The lack of character IS what needs to be understood.

 

 

It's ironic that many Betrayed spouses have also been tempted to cheat, or had an attraction to someone other than their spouse and in the end chose NOT to cheat.

 

All marriages at any given time are vulnerable, whether we know it or not.

There were times in my marriage when I felt neglected or there was stress from everyday responsibilities. Did my husband make me happy every single day, did I make my husband happy every single day....no.

 

Yes, it takes character to navigate both the good and rough times in a marriage, it takes character to have integrity, it takes character to be as honest as possible, and it takes character to not blame or say that one spouse is the cause of another spouse choosing to cheat.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Furious

[carhill]

It takes character to own one's responsibility for what they cause in a relationship. Their words, their actions. No one person owns all of that responsibility in a relationship. Both do, for what they each cause.

[BetrayedH]

It takes character to own one's responsibility for what they cause in a relationship. Their words, their actions. No one person owns all of that responsibility in a relationship. Both do, for what they each cause.

 

I am plenty man enough to accept that my actions influenced my wife's happiness and/or lack thereof. As with many (all?) BSs, I am painfully aware of my shortcomings. That isn't what's missing. Regardless of my influence, my wife didn't have to cheat. Short of a situation where I shove the OM's penis into her vagina, I didn't make that choice; she did. What's commonly missing is the WS having the courage to face the fact that nobody made that choice for them and that no one caused them to cheat. They should take a good hard look at themselves to determine why they chose to do that.

[Furious]

It takes character to own one's responsibility for what they cause in a relationship. Their words, their actions. No one person owns all of that responsibility in a relationship. Both do, for what they each cause.

 

Character is what you say and do when no one is looking.

 

It's childish to say anyone is the cause for anyone else's bad choices.

[carhill]

So you're calling names now, eh?

 

How about we discuss the topic in a mature fashion?

 

Character indeed is what you say and do, all the time. You are responsible for all of it.

[Spark1111]

When emotions are involved, logic goes out the window. I was really unhappy but I didn't really understand why. I had this sense that my marriage was not working. My wife and I are not the best communicators, so we didn't talk it through.

 

My wife was wrapped up in her job and the day-to-day activities in the house. She had no inclination to discuss the fact that we weren't really doing anything together anymore. She didn't even notice that I was depressed and unhappy.

 

I ended up involved with someone else, and that was the catalyst for me to understand how messed up my relationship with my wife had become. By then, of course, it was too late.

 

So, while my wife can't be a mind-reader, she certainly should have noticed that things were going off the rails. Even after I started discussing with her that I was really unhappy, and things weren't going well, she didn't clue in to how serious it was. She didn't make much effort to re-connect.

 

On the other hand, it's on me for what I did. Not making any excuses there, or pointing fingers at anyone else. All I can say is that I got into a place where I was completely lost and out of my depth emotionally, and, as luck would have it, someone turned up at just that moment.

 

That's my point - it's easy to criticize at an intellectual level, and when you're removed from the situation emotionally, but not so straightforward to function appropriately at the time.

 

I think I understand this. people who are depressed are the worst communicators in that the become so wrapped up in their mental state, they cannot believe no one else is noticing the extent of their sadness.

 

They resent that, and suppressed resentment makes it all worse somehow; even poorer communication of their unmet needs.

 

did you seek counseling for your unhappiness prior to running into someone else?

[Spark1111]

So you're calling names now, eh?

 

How about we discuss the topic in a mature fashion?

 

Character indeed is what you say and do, all the time. You are responsible for all of it.

 

I actually think there is agreement here, though it is hard to discern for the semantics and hair-splitting.

 

there is cause and effect just as there is the sun, the moon and the stars.

 

the second conversation, winding around that, is accountability and personal choice.

 

Did I cause my fWS to cheat? Maybe. Could be. Did he have a choice not to cheat? Sure he did.

 

is he responsible for his choice to cheat? Most definitely.

[Furious]

So you're calling names now, eh?

 

How about we discuss the topic in a mature fashion?

 

Character indeed is what you say and do, all the time. You are responsible for all of it.

 

 

You misunderstood my comment.

 

And yes, in general it is childish for anyone to blame or say that someone else is the cause of their poor actions, such as cheating.

 

How many parents have heard children play the blame game with their siblings, "he made me do it, it's her fault I hit little Debbie with my toy truck."

 

It's easy to claim good character, but the test of good character is when no one is looking and they practice what they preach.

[Spark1111]

Right. A person cheats because they lack character and we know they lack character because they cheat.

 

you are smarter than this.

 

I get the cause and effect argument, I really do, but it does not adequately explain those intoxic, abusive and sexless, loveless marriages who do not cheat.

 

It does not explain those in boring, complacent marriages who choose not to cheat.

 

It does not explain those in happy sexual marriages who choose to cheat.

 

There is a HUGE assumption being made by many of the debaters that unhappiness, caused by a spouse, precipitated the choice to cheat.

 

Sometimes it does, but sometimes it does not.

 

Sometimes, just sometimes, the cause to cheat lies solely within the cheater.

[nofool4u]

Sure, a BS, or potential BS, could be seen as "causing" a WS, or potential WS's reaction.

 

It comes down to choice. If the marriage isn't all that great, some will cheat, some will not. The difference between the people that will and the people that won't?.......character.

[flattened]

I think I understand this. people who are depressed are the worst communicators in that the become so wrapped up in their mental state, they cannot believe no one else is noticing the extent of their sadness.

 

They resent that, and suppressed resentment makes it all worse somehow; even poorer communication of their unmet needs.

 

did you seek counseling for your unhappiness prior to running into someone else?

 

No, I didn't seek counseling. I didn't know to do that. I certainly learned the hard way that it would have been better to have done that. I had no resentment towards anyone or the situation. I was just wildly out of comfort zone. Yes, looking back I wish that someone had noticed where I was at, and helped me get some help.

 

But they didn't. Instead someone else came into my life (a colleague, to make matters worse).

 

So, avoid a t/j, back to the question. Do I consider that my wife was the cause? Or was it just me having a poor character? Neither. It's back to my original statement, when human emotions are involved, all logic and rational explanations go out the window.

[flattened]

Two things I wanted to add. I own the fact that I had an affair. I caused a lot of pain for everyone around me (me included), and the pain isn't close to being done yet.

 

At the same time, if you as a spouse are not attentive enough to notice that your partner is going through a rough time, you're at extreme risk for something unpleasant to happen. Don't take this as placing blame, because it isn't. It's just a fact of life.

[Spark1111]

No, I didn't seek counseling. I didn't know to do that. I certainly learned the hard way that it would have been better to have done that. I had no resentment towards anyone or the situation. I was just wildly out of comfort zone. Yes, looking back I wish that someone had noticed where I was at, and helped me get some help.

 

But they didn't. Instead someone else came into my life (a colleague, to make matters worse).

 

So, avoid a t/j, back to the question. Do I consider that my wife was the cause? Or was it just me having a poor character? Neither. It's back to my original statement, when human emotions are involved, all logic and rational explanations go out the window.

 

Yes, I get that. It is very similar to my sitch and my fWS, his depression,his work colleague who knew NOTHING of his past and who chose to believe she could save him where I could not.

 

I have dealt with it all an no longer blame anyone, not even myself.

 

My mother had bouts of depression and chose to pray to G-d, delve deeply into her addiction of religion, and never sought professional help either.

 

I am saying this in the kindest way possible although your post is triggering me a bit: YOU and you alone are responsible for seeking help for your depression and your ability to communicate your feelings to your spouse in the kindest, most clear and concise way possible to your spouse.

 

She is, was not your mother. it was not her job to make you better or help you through it without you exhausting every means possible to cure it on your own. She could lend her support, but she did not cause it, and short of a profession psychiatric degree, could not help nor cure it. Only YOU could have done that.

 

if she was diagnosed with cancer but then claimed she did not know to seek,epically help, spiraled into a depression, blamed you and then had an affair with a colleague who needed to save her because of their own insecure pathology, would YOU be here saying emotions are what they are?

 

OF COURSE NOT! depression is a clinical diagnosis,one that requires the seeking of medical help.

 

to blame your wife and your marriage for not knowing to seek professional help is a major cop out. I lived it in my childhood and in my mArriage.

 

You have major work to do! Get going, because wherever you go, the illness, untreated will follow. Your AP was a balm, an aspirin, for what is ailing you.

 

depression pushes loved ones away. it scares them, they feel helpless, and pushes them into hyperdrive to protect the children and keep things sunny and normal for the family, your children!

 

you recognized you were depressed. That's huge! blaming your wife for it makes as much sense as she blaming your for breat cancer. Without professional help and medical treatment being obtained? An affair to boot? You are deflecting blame, not accepting accountability and just wallowing in it.

 

You will not see your role in the demise of your marriage until you treat yourself.

 

That's my opinion based on years of therapy and a lifetime of nonsense from untreated depression of loved ones.

[flattened]

to blame your wife and your marriage for not knowing to seek professional help is a major cop out. I lived it in my childhood and in my mArriage.

 

Wow. Where did I say I blame anyone for what happened? I don't. I started by explaining that given the appropriate set of circumstances, things can get out of hand, and trying to assign blame or impugn people's character makes no sense. Because it's about human emotions, not rational thought processes.

 

I can look back now and know I was at least partly depressed. I didn't know it then, and it doesn't change the fact that conditions in my marriage, and in both me and my wife, contributed to my unhappiness. It's just a fact, and despite a lot of water passing under the bridge, and a much better understanding of myself and my issues, that hasn't changed.

 

Just btw, the OW was certainly not looking to rescue me, and certainly didn't. She dumped me when I started to get too serious about leaving my marriage and trying to work on a relationship with her. So I lost both her and my marriage. You can consider it just desserts if you like.

 

Finally, one can't express a complicated situation in a few sentences. I put in just a few details to avoid sidetracking the discussion. You shouldn't jump to conclusions based on incomplete information, because they're incorrect.

 

Bottom line, things went bad in our marriage, communication was a big problem, inattention to the issues was a big problem, and sheer dumb luck was a big problem. Compound that with the whole situation being about human emotions, and that's where I come with my conclusion - trying to find cause and assign blame makes no sense.

[BetrayedH]

If you as a spouse are not attentive enough to notice that your partner is going through a rough time, you're at extreme risk for something unpleasant to happen.

 

This ^^^ sure sounds like blameshifting to me. Sounds to me like your spouse should have been a mind reader. Where is your accountability? Add to this,

 

You can't explain emotions

Things can get out of hand

We had marital problems

Sheer dumb luck

 

and it sure sounds like you have excused yourself entirely for decisions that you made consciously all on your own.

 

Perhaps you actually should sit down and try to figure out why those emotions just caused you to act in the way that you did. If you don't understand it, how will you avoid these inexplicable emotions controlling your every decision in future relationships?

[Spark1111]

I would NEVER consider it just desserts when someone realizes in hindsight that they were sad and depressed, and in that state, made some poor decisions because they just wanted to feel better about themselves.

 

I lived that scenario and in time, I reconciled with him, but he had to take many, many self-advocating steps, before I would even consider it.

 

I implore you to do the same. Only you can make you happy, healthy and whole.

[waterwoman]

 

At the same time, if you as a spouse are not attentive enough to notice that your partner is going through a rough time, you're at extreme risk for something unpleasant to happen. Don't take this as placing blame, because it isn't. It's just a fact of life.

 

Yep. H could tell you that the unpleasantness in the partner might well be suicidal ideation. But if you don't notice that your W is at her lowest ebb ever that might be because you have your head so deep in the f**cking affair fog that you can't find your ar*e with your hand let alone notice that your life partner is contemplating junmping off a bridge into speeding traffic... <mutter>

 

btw How is your w supposed to cope with your depression unless you OWN it. Men are often crap at telling people what they want and need and unless she is familiar with depression she can't know what to do. No excuse to self-medicate with an affair.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I believe that people in a relationship "cause" the environment of the relationship, but no one can "cause" ME to do anything. They might cause me to FEEL like doing something, and I might FEEL like blaming them for my choices, but ultimately MY actions are up to ME and I am completely responsible for them, as long as I'm mentally sound.

[flattened]

This ^^^ sure sounds like blameshifting to me. Sounds to me like your spouse should have been a mind reader. Where is your accountability?

 

Way to cherry pick the quote. Why not include the very next sentence where I explicitly said I wasn't placing any blame at all? For those who have jumped to the conclusion that I was depressed and I used an affair to feel better about myself, well you're just plain wrong. For BH, if you think I am excusing myself for decisions I made, you're just plain wrong too.

 

At the same time, if you choose to just view what happens in these circumstances in simple black and white terms of bad/ignorant/selfish/broken person behaving badly you're also plain wrong. From my point of view, the only value to having a discussion like this is to gain insight to prevent it from happening again, or happening to someone else.

 

I can assure you that the whole experience was a nightmare from beginning to end and afterwards, for me as well as all those I hurt.

 

I guess it wasn't wise of me to try and put a different perspective on things, because y'all just feel that you have to blame someone. Ok, that's your perspective. Feel free to think of me as an evil blame-shifting person who won't accept responsibility for my decisions.

 

As it turns out, real life is holding me real accountable.

[Spark1111]

we are not trying to flatten you Flattened.

 

We are all trying to get to a better place, a place of healing and understanding.

 

We are hoping to approach all our future relationships, whether single, divorced, or reconciled with some assurances we will not be so damn blind and trusting again, not be decimated by the pain of betrayal, yet with hope in our hearts to have happy and fulfilling relationships.

 

I doubt the TRUE blame shifters are trying to figure anything out on an internet forum.

 

I think you got some good advice here! Take what you need and leave the rest.

[BetrayedH]

Way to cherry pick the quote. Why not include the very next sentence where I explicitly said I wasn't placing any blame at all? For those who have jumped to the conclusion that I was depressed and I used an affair to feel better about myself, well you're just plain wrong. For BH, if you think I am excusing myself for decisions I made, you're just plain wrong too.

 

At the same time, if you choose to just view what happens in these circumstances in simple black and white terms of bad/ignorant/selfish/broken person behaving badly you're also plain wrong. From my point of view, the only value to having a discussion like this is to gain insight to prevent it from happening again, or happening to someone else.

 

I can assure you that the whole experience was a nightmare from beginning to end and afterwards, for me as well as all those I hurt.

 

I guess it wasn't wise of me to try and put a different perspective on things, because y'all just feel that you have to blame someone. Ok, that's your perspective. Feel free to think of me as an evil blame-shifting person who won't accept responsibility for my decisions.

 

As it turns out, real life is holding me real accountable.

 

It appears that you are able to cherry pick quotes as well. You managed to leave out the other passages where blameless emotions just carry us on the winds.

 

You can also feel free to call me bitter if you like. Guilty as charged. Not to worry; real life is also holding me accountable for my wife's emotions. I sure feel for the poor wayward victims. I'll spend some time thinking about how accountable she is being held on Christmas morning this year while I sit alone in my apartment and she is with my kids in my home.

[flattened]

It appears that you are able to cherry pick quotes as well. You managed to leave out the other passages where blameless emotions just carry us on the winds.

 

You can also feel free to call me bitter if you like. Guilty as charged. Not to worry; real life is also holding me accountable for my wife's emotions. I sure feel for the poor wayward victims. I'll spend some time thinking about how accountable she is being held on Christmas morning this year while I sit alone in my apartment and she is with my kids in my home.

 

I thought I addressed that. I'll try again. It takes a combination of marital issues and appropriate circumstances for something bad to happen. In most cases. Of course there are selfish philandering people, and there's nothing anyone can do to stop them from doing what they're going to do. I just don't believe that's the situation in the majority of cases.

 

In my case, there were some rough patches previously, and we made it through. Of course, we didn't address the real issues, so I guess the risk of something bad happening remained. But nonetheless, I didn't go looking outside my marriage for feel-goods.

 

Similarly, the person I ended up getting involved with was someone I worked with for 4 years before. We were friendly, but never ever crossed any boundaries. Because we were both married. We chatted during that time, but not a single conversation that I wouldn't have been completely comfortable having in front of my wife. We talked about general stuff, our kids, etc. Nothing ever about our personal lives.

 

So what happened? Just when I was in a vulnerable state (on me, not blaming anyone else, taking complete responsibility here, put the flamethrowers away), so was she. I'm pretty sure nothing would have happened without that confluence of circumstances. Regardless of the other stuff going on in my life. You can choose to believe this or not, I know what I believe.

 

Does any of this make any difference, or shift blame? No, I'm just trying to get across that by and large, the whole situation is much more complicated and grey than cause/blame/character defect/whatever can explain. And really, what actually matters is recognizing when things are starting to head in a direction where everybody is going to get hurt, and try head it off. Pointing fingers or making people defensive is unlikely to help in that regard. (And BTW, I know you will find this even harder to believe, but we didn't have sex. Not because we didn't want to, but because we felt it was wrong. Ha. Talk about crazy complicated emotional thinking)

 

I'm sorry for your situation. That sucks for sure. But how would it have been different if your wife had just said one day she didn't want to be married to you anymore? You'd still be in the situation, just having arrived by a different route. Sorry, this last piece is probably completely off-topic.