Can a BS cause a WS to cheat?

[aed]

When you miss something in your marriage like sex, affection. Telling this to your spouse is showing character. When things don't work out and ending it is showing character. Because you don't what you will get (risk taking)

 

Cheating is a short-term non-risktaking intervention, because you chose for a status quo in your marraige (but deciving your spouse). Non

[woinlove]

I was in that situation and chose not to cheat. I will sit in judgment of those that decide an affair is the only option because it isn't the only option. James, with all due respect, you cannot see the forest for the trees as you are too close to your own situation. You have done far too much pre-affair rationalizing. I did the same thing. If you cheat, it's on you and no one else. Not happy? Fix it or leave. Decide to cheat instead? Own it.

 

I agree with this.

 

I don't see the "I had to be dishonest because ... [insert blame on another person]...". So, so much more to be gained by recognizing "I chose to be dishonest because...[insert reason internal to self]...". The power to choose honesty and integrity is all within ourselves. Grab it, because it is priceless.

[nofool4u]

It's quite possible that some aspect of my behavior contributed to her decision to cheat, that's absolutely correct. (Recognizing that doesn't remove her ethical/moral responsibility for her choices though.) She herself didn't attribute her cheating to anything I did, but that's subjective. I accept as a given that two people in a social unit as close as a marital or SO relationship can't avoid constantly influencing each other's behavior any more than the Earth and Moon can avoid each other's gravitational pull.

 

But did your behavior CAUSE her to cheat?

 

 

Like everything else it's a sword with two edges. If you don't think you have any influence over your partner's behavior for the ill, then what makes you believe you have any influence over them for the good?

 

Never said a BS's behavior doesn't have an "effect" on the WS. We are talking about "cause" here, are we not? And according to you and James, the BS did "cause" the WS to cheat.

 

No BS in here is going to deny that the state of the marriage is affected by both their behavior and that of their spouse. Just ask any of them.

 

This, again, is about "cause" which you are arguing that the BS "causes" the WS to cheat (although disclaiming it by saying thats not the same thing as "blame")

[nofool4u]

She's your ex for a reason.

 

The lack of sex and attention from her, and her cheating, are all related.

 

Yup, and because of that, her cheating "caused" me to file for divorce.

 

And because her OM at the time realized she is a cheater, her character CAUSED him to punch her in the eye.

 

Enough "cause" to go around I suppose.

[woinlove]

It's interesting that it's obvious enough you see the causal connection between what she did and your filing for divorce but don't want to admit any causation between what preceded it.

 

Actually he had "cause" in quotes. But my view is that there's no lack of integrity in filing for divorce. I don't think anyone can cause someone else to behave unethically. If the person is determined to behave ethically, nothing anyone else does will change that. On the other hand, if they lack integrity, they may behave unethically, no matter what anyone does, even if they convince themselves they are only acting unethically because of x, y or z.

[frozensprouts]

the was a point raised that a spouse may withhold sex because of "power"....

 

i think that some cheating is also an expression of "power"...from what i understand, some spouses begin to view their husband or wife as a pseudo parent, and choose to "rebel" by cheating ( not saying this is a conscious choice, but it seems that it happens)...

 

also, like i said before...different people assign different values to things in a marriage...sex may be very important for some, for others it's other things...maybe those things are lacking in a marriage...does that somehow "cause" someone else to cheat?

 

as for the idea that a woman should make the guy she's marrying aware of any of her sexual proclivities/dislikes before they get married...um, please explain how a woman is somehow supposed to predict how she'll feel in ten years, twenty, thirty?

seems pretty unfair that she is expected to stay the same, yet completely be okay with whatever changes her husband makes to his sexual interests...what he develops an interest during the marriage that she finds a total turnoff...they are still having sex, yet maybe not doing whatever it is that he now finds stimulating...should her lack of interest now be considered a fair "cause" for him to cheat? what if he wants to have sex several times a day and she doesn't...is she still unfairly denying him sex and causing him to cheat...( and before i get the usual " that's an exaggeration...no it isn't. that can and does happen)

 

i think it's pretty unfair and a real clouding of the issue to try and make it seem like (almost) every affair boils down to a man ( or wife) not getting enough sex..

 

there are lots and lots and lots of women on here who were having plenty of sex with their husbands, yet their husbands still cheated. A few times a week was okay to him before, but suddenly it's not enough so he cheats? his wife develops an interest in something her husband finds repulsive, so she cheats?

 

it's pretty disingenuous to try and make every woman or man who says "not tonight" every once in a while, or who is willing to have sex but just not a particular kind of sex sound like a "sex denier" ( is that even word?)...it seems that there is some kind of a standard being set that an awful lot of loving, normal and sexual healthy woman and men just can't meet...where does one draw the line? when is it okay for a woman or man to say " not tonight" every once in a while and not be considered the "cause" of their spouse's affair?

 

if we are going to talk about "sex denying power tripping spouses", then lets talk about the opposite...husbands ( and wives) who will use any excuse to cheat...and there are lots of those out there...no matter how much sex they have with their spouse, it will never, ever be enough...did they tell their spouse that when they got married? did they say "sorry honey, i love you, but in ten years i'm going to chat on you, so be ready"? of course not... that's silly...how cold they know that? by the same token, ho can every person know how they are going to view sex in ten years?

 

i know that some will say I'm exaggerating or citing extreme examples, but the opposite is also true...yes, there are some spouses who completely cut off sex to their spouses, but there are also many , many , many times where an affair happens even though there is lots of sex going on...in that situation, perhaps sex is not the cause of the affair, and there is a whole lot more going on

[BetrayedH]

The 'need' for sex is really a want to feel desired and desirable (to be externally validated). For some people, they are so insecure that no amount of external validation is enough. They need MORE and make the decision to go get it. Drives me crazy. It seems nothing is enough for anyone anymore. Doesn't matter that there is a perfectly good spouse at home, great parent, frequent and loving spouse and perfectly interested in sex with them but it's not the way I would REALLY like it. The validation I would get from yet another person would be OH so much more validating. And suddenly it that the OP really "gets me," unlike my spouse. Give me a break. When is the love of one person ever going to be enough? Sad state of the world.

[JamesM]

I was in that situation and chose not to cheat. I will sit in judgment of those that decide an affair is the only option because it isn't the only option. James, with all due respect, you cannot see the forest for the trees as you are too close to your own situation. You have done far too much pre-affair rationalizing. I did the same thing. If you cheat, it's on you and no one else. Not happy? Fix it or leave. Decide to cheat instead? Own it.

 

And having been in a similar situation, I have not chosen the affair. I will not sit in judgment against anyone. I will sit next to them and tell them why what they did was not only hurtful and stupid but the wrong thing for their life.

 

Affairs are not the only option and probably the worst possible option.

 

Rationalizing and understanding are two different things. I can understand why someone would cheat. but I cannot justify it. I can certainly rationalize how the option of an affair was attractive to someone who felt cornered for whatever reason.

 

I can see how one person can cause another to make either a good or bad decision. I can how one person can be faced with choosing something because of one or more decisions another person made.

 

This is not "pre-affair" rationalizing. It is simply understanding another human being.

 

Just because you or I have not made the decision another person made does not mean that if in their position we may have made a different decision than they made.

 

As for me personally, I responded to Snowflower about those same "allegations." I am not preparing the way for a future affair or a current one or a past one. I am simply explaining my understanding of someone who may be faced with what I have been faced with.

 

I agree that sometimes i don't see above the trees. It is the same as expecting someone who is a BS to see why a WS may have chosen an affair. It is the same as expecting one who has been hurt to the core to examine how the WS actually might have had a reason for the decision.

 

The cheating would be on me, but the decision to cheat would have been based on circumstances around me.

 

My decision WAS different. I chose to start over and see how I could fix my own situation...and so far things have improved greatly. I guess having sexual intimacy (if this is a good barometer) five out of the past six weeks when that is as much sex as we have had over the past two years....is a good start.

[woinlove]

I don't think this is a correct way to frame the question.

 

First you have to examine whether we think it is possible for one person to influence another person's behavior in a way that might have ethical implications.

 

Whether or not the specific circumstance results in an "ethical" or "unethical" result is subjective (depending on the circumstances and one's definition of what is "ethical").

 

If we didn't think it was possible to influence another person in the ethical realm by our own word & deed, then we wouldn't worry too much about how we raise our children or what they are exposed to outside the home.

 

It is possible to influence others both for good and for bad, even if one may not realize it at the time.

 

The influences may be subtle but they do have an effect and it's actually kind of self-denigrating for a BS to believe they are such a non-influence in their own lives.

 

Since we all want to take control of our lives, that of necessity requires acknowleding that we may have had some influence on what our spouse's actions were, regardless of whether they were good or bad actions.

 

Or is it that we think the BS is so weak-minded that only the WS can influence and "manipulate" the BS, but never the other way around?

 

Does that make a lot of sense? That manipulation and influence in a relationship can only go one way? That just doesn't seem correct to me.

 

Children are brought up a lot in a thread about cheating. I suppose a broken person can revert to a child-like state, but people who choose to have an affair are adults, maybe broken or weak or dishonest adults, but adults, nonetheless. Children obviously are still forming their own values and the guidance and support and love they receive is critical to that formation. But, not sure what that has to do with this thread, unless one thinks those who choose to cheat are acting out something from their childhood. Maybe some are. Maybe most are.

 

I said a person determined to behave ethically. Clearly, anyone who cheats is not such a person - they may be determined to have a secret affair, but they are not determined to behave ethically. Often they are looking for excuses to behave unethically, some of which have been mentioned in this thread.

 

We clearly differ on this. I think adults influence each other, but the choice to act against one's ethics and values comes from something internal, not external. For those who see nothing wrong with the deception and betrayal, they are not acting against their own ethics and obviously don't need any excuse to act dishonestly if they see nothing wrong with it.

[woinlove]

The cheating would be on me, but the decision to cheat would have been based on circumstances around me.

 

The point is what you call circumstances around you will be different for everyone. Some will cheat if they don't have sex for a month, some will cheat if they don't have sex for a year, some will cheat if their spouse becomes pregnant, some will cheat if their spouse becomes ill, some will cheat if a parent dies, some will cheat if they lose their job, some will cheat if their spouse cheats first, some will cheat when they feel they are getting old, some will cheat if they have the opportunity, independent of any other circumstances.

 

Each is making a decision to have an A while hiding from their spouse the fact that they are having an A. The real "why" and "reason" and "cause" lies in why did they decide to pursue an affair when there was no sex, an illness, a pregnancy, a job loss, a death, betrayal, aging, an opportunity. Why did they choose an A and not digging deeper in themselves or get professional counselling on how to weather, or change if possible, a job loss, an illness, aging, lack of sex, betrayal, pregnancy, seeing an attractive, available person, etc.?

 

Millions of people under the same circumstances choose ethical alternatives and come out better, everyone treated with respect. Why do those who cheat make the bad and unethical decision? The answer lies within, not without. Looking without will only delay the person from learning and changing -- assuming they don't want to spend their whole lives cheating, and if they do, any old excuse will do, the BS is a convenient one, or they could blame it on their colleagues or friends who cheat, on the parent who cheated, or on the AP who seduced them, or whatever/whomever they think "causes" them to cheat.

Edited December 18, 2012 by woinlove

[JamesM]

The point is what you call circumstances around you will be different for everyone. Some will cheat if they don't have sex for a month, some will cheat if they don't have sex for a year, some will cheat if their spouse becomes pregnant, some will cheat if their spouse becomes ill, some will cheat if a parent dies, some will cheat if they lose their job, some will cheat if their spouse cheats first, some will cheat when they feel they are getting old, some will cheat if they have the opportunity, independent of any other circumstances.

 

I agree. And the cause does not take away the responsibility, nor does it justify the choice.

 

This thread simply asked if a BS can cause a WS to cheat. IMO the answer is yes.

 

Each is making a decision to have an A while hiding from their spouse the fact that they are having an A. The real "why" and "reason" and "cause" lies in why did they decide to pursue an affair when there was no sex, an illness, a pregnancy, a job loss, a death, betrayal, aging, an opportunity. Why did they choose an A and not digging deeper in themselves or get professional counselling on how to weather, or change if possible, a job loss, an illness, aging, lack of sex, betrayal, pregnancy, seeing an attractive, available person, etc.?

 

I don't know. In some cases, they no longer cared. In others, they had tried many other options short of divorce that did not work. And the affair was simply an escape from a seemingly impossible situation.

 

Millions of people under the same circumstances choose ethical alternatives and come out better, everyone treated with respect. Why do those who cheat make the bad and unethical decision? The answer lies within, not without.

 

Yes, it does and it doesn't. The question then is...would the ones that cheat have done so if there was never a reason? Many who have done so would say no.

 

Looking without will only delay the person from learning and changing -- assuming they don't want to spend their whole lives cheating, and if they do, any old excuse will do,

 

Agree.

 

the BS is a convenient one, or they could blame it on their colleagues or friends who cheat, on the parent who cheated, or on the AP who seduced them, or whatever/whomever they think "causes" them to cheat.

 

Everyone can find a reason for the situation they are in and the choices they make. A WS can blame the BS or he/she can take responsibility for his actions. Just because something caused him to make that choice when others would have made a more honest choice, does not give him the right to blame someone else and justify his choice. Instead, it should help him understand what caused him to be faced with the decision, and help him prepare to make a better choice when faced with the same situation. Growing involves both looking inward and looking outward. This applies to the BS as well.

[woinlove]

It is not really possible to separate cause and responsibility. The definitions are used interchangeably for a reason:

 

cause

a. The producer of an effect, result, or consequence.

b. The one, such as a person, event, or condition, that is responsible for an action or result.

 

If one is the producer of a result, then one is responsible for that result. I think some here are using influence, which may just be a contributing factor, not necessarily even the most important one, interchangeably with cause, but they are distinct.

 

I still maintain, when one is talking about an individual's personal values and ethics, then a breach of those values and ethics by the individual, rests solely with the individual, unless they acted against their will under serious threat or acted in temporary insanity or a similar altered state. An "act of passion" might fall under the latter category, but having an A that lasts more than a few minutes and is not immediately confessed to, can not really fall into that category.

[JamesM]

It is not really possible to separate cause and responsibility. The definitions are used interchangeably for a reason:

 

 

Go back a page or two for a post of mine, or look in the Merriam website. Cause can also mean motive or reason.

 

And then we can see that cause does not always mean a mindless effect.

 

You are right. We cannot separate our responsibility of our decisions just because they were influenced by something or someone else.

 

And yet this thread asks if one person can cause another person to make a decision.

 

Yes.

 

It does not ask if that takes away all blame or responsibility for that decision...and it doesn't.

[nofool4u]

It's interesting that it's obvious enough you see the causal connection between what she did and your filing for divorce but don't want to admit any causation between what preceded it.

 

Already told you, I will go ahead and buy into your idea that the BS caused the WS to cheat.

 

So I'm just using your logic now. And I like it. It works both ways.

[nofool4u]

What red flags did you miss with your W? Or did you cause her to cheat on you?

 

Yes, he did cause her to cheat on him.

[carhill]

The WS's alleged lack of integrity, situational ethics and choices are not relevant to cause in this case, but could be relevant to overall causality. They are a separate subject. Bringing inflammatory content into such discourse serves to obfuscate the germ of the discussion and IMO it only serves to achieve an agenda of disruption and is purely self-serving.

[JamesM]

So it takes an additional thing for the cheating to happen. A lack of character. Apparently you have some. Others - not so much.

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Of course, it always takes something else. I don't think I have said differently. Just because we have a motive or reason or cause to do something, we do have a free will to choose how we respond. There is not an automatic response to every cause.

 

But that's not the whole answer, otherwise every single MP would handle every single issue the same. An A would be EVERYONE's solution to the same issue.

 

So, again, it takes something else. A lack of integrity.

 

You are misunderstanding the word "cause" in the sense that it is being used me thinks.

 

If cause means motive or reason, then everyone will not respond or choose the same direction. Just as a loving gesture can incline someone to choose a response that is loving...but it doesn't necessarily mean that it will, so an unloving gesture can illicit an unloving response...but it doesn't necessarily mean that it will.

 

Every person will not respond the same. We know that every person has a free will to respond. While one person may choose to respond to a sexless marriage by choosing divorce (wrongly), another may respond by seeking out an answer to change the sexlessness into "sexfulness." And yes another will (wrongly) seek out an affair.

 

We all respond differently because of our life's experiences, training, attitudes, or behavior. However, our decisions are not chosen in a vacuum but usually in response to someone else's actions or lack thereof.

 

Saying that a person is to blame for his or her decisions without taking responsibility for our actions or words that may give him cause for his or her decisions is no different than the person who blames his or her choice of an affair on the one whom was betrayed.

 

Someone can give another motive to cheat, but everyone has a free will to choose how he or she will respond.

[nofool4u]

The WS's alleged lack of integrity, situational ethics and choices are not relevant to cause in this case, but could be relevant to overall causality. They are a separate subject. Bringing inflammatory content into such discourse serves to obfuscate the germ of the discussion and IMO it only serves to achieve an agenda of disruption and is purely self-serving.

 

The idea that the BS "caused" the WS to cheat itself is self-serving and inflammatory.

 

Or are you only wanting that from the BS to be seen as self-serving and inflammatory?

[carhill]

You're being off-topic. Want to have a go?

 

I'm itching for it.

[nofool4u]

You're being off-topic. Want to have a go?

 

I'm itching for it.

 

If I'm off topic for addressing your post, then so are you. So itch all you want.

[JamesM]

Providing cause does not imply total blame. However, saying there is not cause implies there is no blame.

 

If I slapped someone across the face and they responded with a slap back, then I provided a cause for them to respond in like back. And yet that does not mean everyone will respond with a slap. Some may slug me, and others may simply walk away.

 

While they are responsible for their action, this does not take away the responsibility that I have for my action.

 

Two people are in a marriage, and one withholds sex or emotional support to the point that the other feels "starved." The response of one person in that situation will not be the same as another person or another person. There can be many responses. Each is responsible for the decision each makes. The person who withheld is still responsible for his or her actions just as the other is responsible for his or her actions.

 

Each carries a burden of blame. While one may carry more blame for the subsequent fall out, neither is blameless.

[drifter777]

The 'need' for sex is really a want to feel desired and desirable (to be externally validated). For some people, they are so insecure that no amount of external validation is enough. They need MORE and make the decision to go get it. Drives me crazy. It seems nothing is enough for anyone anymore. Doesn't matter that there is a perfectly good spouse at home, great parent, frequent and loving spouse and perfectly interested in sex with them but it's not the way I would REALLY like it. The validation I would get from yet another person would be OH so much more validating. And suddenly it that the OP really "gets me," unlike my spouse. Give me a break. When is the love of one person ever going to be enough? Sad state of the world.

 

 

 

 

 

We tend to overlook the very real possibility that our WS has real psychiatric problems. There is a recognized personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder - that is characterized by:

• Exhibitionist behaviors
  
• Constant seeking of reassurance or approval
  
• Inappropriately seductive appearance or behavior
  
• A need to be the center of attention
  
• Tendency to believe that relationships are more intimate than they actually are
  

If your wife/husband exhibits a number of these characteristics they are going to cheat and I don't think the marriage is going to survive no matter what the couple do to try to make things work. The WS is sick with an illness that has no cure. Under some circumstances a histrionic person can change their behavior to some point, but it's doubtful they could ever have a "normal" relationship.

[carhill]

I've read the thread. I also know the posting patterns of nearly all the obfuscaters in the thread, and some of their duplicate usernames. It's simply, and cleverly, as is their pattern, shifting the focus of discussion to their agenda, and is done in nearly every thread they post in.

 

It's the tone of the 'explanations', not the content. The unwillingness to see both sides, which is typical; so typical, it's a broken record around here.

 

It simply does not require any choice by a WS for a BS to 'cause' an environment in a marriage, no more nor less than the WS can 'cause' an environment in a marriage to create an environment which the BS responds to. It's equal. Both parties behave. Their behaviors 'cause' dynamics to exist. Choices are made on those dynamics. The thread is NOT about the healthiness, appropriateness or legality of those choices. It's simply about cause. Not effect; cause.

[nofool4u]

Providing cause does not imply total blame. However, saying there is not cause implies there is no blame.

 

Exactly, because there is no blame when one spouse decides to have an affair. Thats what this thread is about, CAUSING the WS to have an AFFAIR.

 

There is plenty of blame to go around on BOTH sides for the state of their marriage. Blame can be assigned to both spouses in that regard. It cannot be assigned to the BS as blaming them for their spouse's infidelity.

 

Each carries a burden of blame. While one may carry more blame for the subsequent fall out, neither is blameless.

 

Correct, each carries that burden for the health of their MARRIAGE, not one spouse's infidelity.

[carhill]

If I'm off topic for addressing your post, then so are you. So itch all you want.

No, I'm going to scratch. I hope it works out for you. We'll see 'cause' in action.