Dating etiquette at 40

[mesmerized]

I would definitely reccomend NOT having sex on the first date (25% of Americans have an std, despite their pretending to be Victorian moralists they sure don't keep their genitals clean like one!) not only does this keep YOU safe but it builds anticipation in your partner and forces him to weigh you on an intellectual level first (and that helps your mission in finding a co parent. You do NOT want to pick the father of your kid based on how well he ****s! It's his patience, anbition, compassion and virtue that matters.

 

There is a reason they are hated by most of the world, and unlike what they like to think, it's not because they are just so great.

[wheream_i]

or should I say "dating sex etiquette at 40"?

 

I feel quite pathetic asking this question. but here it goes... if you're in your 20s you probably won't relate to what goes on at my age, so I prefer people closer to my age answer. thanks!

 

Edgygirl, I really like your post and where you're coming from. 34 year old male here but I come with lots of experience.

 

The only thing I can contribute here is that you seem conflicted (obviously) almost like you are your own worst enemy. You want something but you can't have it without you getting in the way of yourself. First off, you shouldn't apologize one bit for your sexuality. I rarely read several pages of posts on a particular thread but I did with this one. It doesn't seem like any of the responses could relate to the way you approach sex and dating. Only thing I can suggest is using your vast well of knowledge and drawing from your experience to get what you're after. You already seem to know how American men operate - on a less evolved level, as you put it. That's fine if that's the way you see it. I won't argue with that. If that's the case and you are still coming up short or at least dissatisfied, then the change has to come from you. I don't think you're going to find the answer here because it's already come down to men and women arguing about what's promiscuous and what's not.

[wheream_i]

For instance I had to explain I am not willing to date an economic conservative or religious fundamentalist because as an atheist Marxist I do not respect such folks on an intellectual basis.

 

I think that's great! Some people need to be told that!

[dasein]

Does she still have to wait months to have sex or just not have sex cause insecure people like you said so?

 

Thoroughly dishonest, as no one has suggested waiting -months-, this thread is about sex on very early dates, in OP's stated context, the FIRST DATE.

 

What if a woman has a chance to sleep with a really really attractive guy that she does not meet often?

 

Again, dishonest, and outside the thread's context. Or how many times do I have to repost that few men will judge a woman negatively for having a normal sex life, which may include some NSA sex. Stop spinning straw. The thread is specifically about judgments men may make in the U.S. about women who make it a regular practice to sleep with strangers on first dates.

 

Are all judgments correct? No. Are certain judgments generally reasonable? Yes. I had a woman order a second entree on my tab to take home with her on a first date. Does that necessarily mean she is selfish and mercenary? No. Did I judge her as such? Yes. Was my judgment and decision not to see her again reasonable? Yes. It's not necessary for every judgment made in early dating to be 100% accurate to be reasonable. THOUSANDS of threads made by female posters here on this or that marginally bad behavior on a date prove this. People have a right to make reasonable assessments of behavior from early dates, including sexual behavior, and to continue dating or not as they see fit, regardless of whether those judgments are 100% accurate. 70-80% accuracy is enough for most people. BS false double standards don't invalidate the validity of those judgments.

 

In all these cases you would advise a man to just go for it and "live life" but advise a woman to suppress her very natural desires.

 

No. If the man were one of the few who have the same sexual opportunities most all women do, my advice to him would be the exact same as my advice to women. Do what you want, but don't get upset and pitch an irrational "they did it too" fit if you are judged negatively as impulsive based on such behavior.

 

It's not irrevalent in the slightest. The way gay men behave sexually for the most part shows how straight men would behave in case women were accepting like men.

 

Gay men dealing with other men aren't straight men dealing with women. And now to repost to the point of redundancy, any person who has control over when or how they will accept sex, male or female, gay or straight, may be judged as impulsive if they indulge in all or most opportunities that come their way. The fact remains, though, that average straight men don't have the same level of sexual opportunity as almost all women do.

 

Sorry but men like you make me laugh. You complain that women want to have their traditional powers and also the modern equality whereas you are exactly the same. It doesn't take much intelligence to see your obvious hypocrisy and agenda.

 

Identifying a false double standard, one many women rely on as a panacea for their own bad choices in life has nothing to do with "traditional powers." Traditionally, ALL people would be judged harshly in the community for ANY extramarital sex, and you will never see me supporting such traditional notions here or anywhere.

 

It DOES come from jealousy and being terrified of having less power. You demonstrated this in many posts of yours about different things, you even think men should have a say in abortion. Again, power dynamics is what scares you. You're not alone in this and it's common a human trait, but the fact that you don't acknowledge it make you sound not so bright.

 

I do get jealous from time to time, not about this issue though. Pondering the statement "ignorance is bliss" makes me jealous in certain ways.

 

So advocating equal rights in abortion makes me jealous? Does that apply to all people who advocate a POV? Are they just "being jealous?" :lmao:Moronic. Every statement, POV or position someone takes is not necessarily motivated by baser emotions, in -my- world anyway. No idea about -your- world. Spare further of your foamy-mouthed delusions about me, my being scared or terrified, or my life generally.

[dasein]

That's a lot of words for "men do this/women do that" which still isn't true regardless of how much you stomp around about it.

 

Offering reasoning and examples isn't "stomping around," your conclusory posts that contain neither of those things are though.

[DC4]

Offering reasoning and examples isn't "stomping around," your conclusory posts that contain neither of those things are though.

 

Nothing you have said is any sort of proof, it's all generalizations based on your opinion and one off examples. That is most definitely "stomping around."

 

What I do have proof of, however, is your hatred of women as someone already pointed out. Man, you just need to lock yourself up so you never have to see one again. Yikes, who hurt you dasein?

[xxoo]

On the other hand, why wouldn't it be a red flag TO ME that he wants to have sex in the first or second date? See? Double standards for men vs. women always, right?

 

That is a red flag to many women.

 

The playing ground is fair: if you have early sex, you (man or woman) run the risk of being taken less seriously for a relationship.

 

The difference is that women are more likely to be desiring a relationship early on, whereas, with many encounters, the men are primarily interested in sex early on.

 

If the man has sex before a desire for a relationship has developed, it may decrease the chance of that desire developing. If he already has a desire for a relationship on the first date, early sex probably won't hurt the chances--but how often in that true, and what role does age play? I'd be willing to bet that men tend to get more emotionally guarded with age, and less likely to be swept up with desire for a relationship early on.

[xxoo]

I am pro sexual gluttony in both sides - men and women. In my view, having sex too soon doesn't make me want a man less. That's my point. It does make men want the woman less. This is less evolved in my opinion. In what sense? Probably evolutionary / maturity level..

 

Is it less evolved to only want sex? Maybe there was never more interest than that in the first place.

[dasein]

Nothing you have said is any sort of proof, it's all generalizations based on your opinion and one off examples. That is most definitely "stomping around."

 

I see, so despite your posting -nothing- in the way of meaningful, reasoned refutation to what I post, I'm the one stomping around irrationally? Nice reasoning that. BTW, this isn't a geometry class and I am not beholden to "prove" anything to you or anyone else.

 

What I do have proof of, however, is your hatred of women as someone already pointed out. Man, you just need to lock yourself up so you never have to see one again. Yikes, who hurt you dasein?

 

So let's be real clear about the above and what you are doing. I state a POV about certain types of female behavior being reasonable for men to judge negatively. I also state that men, self included, do not judge women for a normal sex life. That POV is accompanied by logic, examples and reasoning developed in several posts. You have -nothing- in the way of rational response, so you attempt to dismiss my POV via shaming and personal insults?

 

And again, I'm the one stomping around? Your reasoning capacity couldn't possibly be that atrophied, leading me to believe you find this lazy, petulant, spoiled discussion tactic actually works to shout down POVs you don't agree with somewhere out in the bad ole real world. Sorry, this isn't a demonstration or a women's studies class. Your posts actually have to make sense here.

[Ruby Slippers]

I don't think most men would wait more than 2 dates and still stick around.

 

Maybe is the big big city I live in. There are so many options here.

 

I know, you guys will say if he doesn't stick around he's not worth it. but, is it true? not sure.

I live in a big city, too, and that is a factor. But relationship-minded people won't be distracted by all the bodies everywhere.

 

Do you really think a guy who likes a woman wouldn't go on more than 2 dates to get to know her before having sex? Or are you worried that you can't hold a man's interest unless you have sex with him fast?

 

I think you really need to work on your self-esteem and realize that you have a lot more to offer than your vagina.

[edgygirl]

Thank you. I can tell you relate to my situation and it was great to read your post. I am pretty clear though in my profile that I am looking for ltr/marriage... but still I get guys looking to get laid, as well as ones that seem to want a relationship but end up not knowing how to deal with me live, how to get to know me... I know, I must be irresistible haha! As this last guy who I talked for 2 months before meeting who seemed to have all the qualities in a father that you described, he even talked about wanting to become a father but oh well... seems the fact I did have sex with him hindered the whole thing :/ I guess I should do as you say. No sex on early dates, no matter what. I am not sure I know how to date this way and keep someone interested, but I'll have to develop this side of me somehow.

 

I'm an immigrant to America too and I know EXACTLY what you mean by difference in the sexual ethics.

[edgygirl]

Thanks. I know, the answer is probably within me. I just don't know how to behave anymore on dating as if I were 13 again, going on innocent dates and getting to know someone. Specially because as someone pointed out here, man will always try no matter what and if I like the guy already, it's hard for me. Let's see if I can develop a strategy for dating like that, holding myself and still get someone I like interested.

 

Edgygirl, I really like your post and where you're coming from. 34 year old male here but I come with lots of experience.

 

The only thing I can contribute here is that you seem conflicted (obviously) almost like you are your own worst enemy. You want something but you can't have it without you getting in the way of yourself. First off, you shouldn't apologize one bit for your sexuality. I rarely read several pages of posts on a particular thread but I did with this one. It doesn't seem like any of the responses could relate to the way you approach sex and dating. Only thing I can suggest is using your vast well of knowledge and drawing from your experience to get what you're after. You already seem to know how American men operate - on a less evolved level, as you put it. That's fine if that's the way you see it. I won't argue with that. If that's the case and you are still coming up short or at least dissatisfied, then the change has to come from you. I don't think you're going to find the answer here because it's already come down to men and women arguing about what's promiscuous and what's not.

[edgygirl]

No, I meant it is less evolved of men to start finding the woman to be less interesting after they had sex... only because they got it early on. (which seems to be the case most of the times in the US)

 

We girls don't get "turned off" after we have sex with men on early dates. Only if the sex was awful.

 

Is it less evolved to only want sex? Maybe there was never more interest than that in the first place.

Edited December 7, 2012 by edgygirl

[edgygirl]

Yes I would just say this - men are definitely better in bed down in my country I come from two countries actually, both very sexual liberated... it is VERY frustrating for me to deal with sexuality in America as people seem to be hypocrites and always turn to be conservative for sexual purposes no matter how liberal they seem initially. Ugh I don't feel like saying the country names as someone I know might recognize me (I am the only person I know who comes from both these coutries) but the one I was referring to earlier is a big one in South America, hehe.

 

I was surprised with this last American guy I was with because he was quite impressive in bed. He knew what to do to please me and really seemed to care about my pleasure and willing to do things to please ME (VERY rare with American men IMHO!) and not only to get off himself like the jerks I usually meet here. Maybe that's why I got so sad after... it was quite good, that's hard to find that and I wanted more, haha.

 

Just curious, what countries are you girls from where men are not insecure hypocrites? I bet the men are amazing lovers too!

[Tafita]

This is a GREAT thread.

 

OP, I've had the exact same problem. EXCEPT, I never slept with someone on the first date and expected it to turn into a relationship. My last LTR of 6 years, we waited three months. And, just recently, a guy I dated we slept together on the 4th date (somewhere around 1.5-2 months in).

 

Part of my issue, is that I am a highly complex individual and while I appear bubbly on the surface, I can come off very aloof emotionally. The common denominator in my failed relationships, is me. Granted, it takes two for a relationship to form, whether it be platonic; sexual; emotional, etc.

 

I am learning to tone down my carefree nature, which makes me a bit sad, because it's like a little piece of me has been removed but I'm trying to reconcile with that. The problem for me, is I usually go from one extreme to the other and have difficulty finding a middle ground. Now I feel SO closed off emotionally from wanting to forge a bond with anyone and I am struggling to change that. It got so bad that I had ZERO interest in dating ANYONE, anytime a guy approached me showed interest I'd deflect it. There was a cute guy that approached me the other day and I could tell he wanted to get to know me better, but, I then deferred him off onto my female friend.

 

I don't have much advice to offer, just wanted to say you're not alone.

[Under The Radar]

I don't think most men would wait more than 2 dates and still stick around.

 

Maybe is the big big city I live in. There are so many options here.

 

I know, you guys will say if he doesn't stick around he's not worth it. but, is it true? not sure.

 

 

Any guy who bails on a woman after two dates because sex hasn't occured is, quite simply, an *******. I can understand if there are other incompatibility issues or "red flags", but for only sex?

 

There are guys (I'm one of them) that desire an emotional connection to a woman before having sex. I'm not a prude, but personally I don't kiss on the first date and have never been "friend zoned" because I chose to takes things slowly. This idea that all guys are "sex crazed maniacs" is patently false.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Training Revelations

[todreaminblue]

Is it less evolved to only want sex? Maybe there was never more interest than that in the first place.

 

 

to only want sex to me equates to mechanical servicing....you want the physical without the emotional .......to me having emotional detachment is less evolved......no strings sex......hookers do it every day...they are the true mechanics of sex....they dont get attached to the people they drive or fix...and they charge you for service.....and it actually is damaging emotionally for professionals...unless they have no heart...

 

 

being evolved i think is when you are in sync with your heart and your body and you hold that desire in check.....i also feel and agree sex for the sake of sex, is inhibited as eternal sunshine said...only when your heart is in tune with your body can you let yourself go and have the ride of your life....you have to know how that car your riding in works and moves and feels to drive to be absolutely satisfied with performance...that in my opinion is evolved...deb

[edgygirl]

In my city, even the guys who state they want a relationship in their profile, even the ones who state they want marriage... have issues doing just that. Keeping their pants on and trying to get to know me as a person. Sad but true.

 

I used to think my self esteem was quite good. But these guys keep crushing it and how can I have a good one if my relationships and mainly with the guys I am interested on usually fail? Is it all about holding it and getting to know the guy to be able to tell if he's really into getting to know someone and having a relationship? I have the impression it won't happen. I won't find someone like that... I have tried and it just doesn't happen.

 

And I am good looking (people tell me that all the time), have a profession that sounds fancy, I am fun and friendly. WTH does a girl has to do these days to find a decent guy with the same stats as them who really wants a relationship? I think most men my age are deadly afraid of having a real relationship although they seem to crave it as much as we do. Or maybe they just want a 25 yo who will wait for years for them to be sure what they want.

 

Is it tested and tried? If you hold on to sex, does it work better with American guys? hmm somehow I think they will just go find it somewhere else.

 

I live in a big city, too, and that is a factor. But relationship-minded people won't be distracted by all the bodies everywhere.

 

Do you really think a guy who likes a woman wouldn't go on more than 2 dates to get to know her before having sex? Or are you worried that you can't hold a man's interest unless you have sex with him fast?

 

I think you really need to work on your self-esteem and realize that you have a lot more to offer than your vagina.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Very few men can even be impulsively promiscuous. Almost all women can.

 

Really? Well, whether they "can" or not doesn't mean they are, I guess. There are many reports and studies that say that men have, on average, many more sexual partners than women - in every country where such a study was done. I didn't even find one that states that women have more than men - not to say that if you google hard enough, you won't find one.

 

I see, so men holding women accountable for what equates to sexual gluttony in their impulsivity, and judge impulsive women negatively as relationship prospects are somehow less evolved?

 

 

I don't know about "less evolved," but less … realistic? Intelligent? Reasonable, maybe?

 

Frankly, that's a crazy point of view.

 

"Men" don't "hold women accountable" for anything, dude. My own husband doesn't "hold me accountable" for things. Being accountable is MY responsibility, as it is for all adults. It's nobody's place to be holding other people accountable, especially one entire gender over another.

[edgygirl]

Well you obviously don't live in my city

 

The only guys who didn't try it with me are the ones who never called again. Sad but true.

 

Any guy who bails on a woman after two dates because sex hasn't occured is, quite simply, an *******. I can understand if there are other incompatibility issues or "red flags", but for only sex?

 

There are guys (I'm one of them) that desire an emotional connection to a woman before having sex. I'm not a prude, but personally I don't kiss on the first date and have never been "friend zoned" because I chose to takes things slowly. This idea that all guys are "sex crazed maniacs" is patently false.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Is it tested and tried? If you hold on to sex, does it work better with American guys? hmm somehow I think they will just go find it somewhere else.

 

I don't think it is. BUT - if YOU feel interested in pursuing a relationship with a particular guy, there is nothing wrong with waiting.

 

Even though you seem comfortable with your own sexuality and you don't mind having casual sex for fun, you also seem to be unhappy when you find out that one of your sex partners who you happen to like "that way" doesn't feel the same way about you. So it's worthwhile to spend enough time with guys you really do like before having sex - to see if they are on the same page as you are in that regard.

 

And, you're right, by the way - Americans are still mired in the puritanism of the founding fathers when it comes to sex.

[Ruby Slippers]

He knew what to do to please me and really seemed to care about my pleasure and willing to do things to please ME (VERY rare with American men IMHO!) and not only to get off himself like the jerks I usually meet here.

Hey, watch it, sister. Don't diss my countrymen I'm sure your attitude is a factor here. I'm American, most of my relationships have been with American men, and I've found that they are VERY generous, sensual, and good in bed.

 

I hear what you're saying about specifying what you want in your profile - but you need to realize that your attitude comes through in all kinds of ways you might not be aware of. If you think you don't have enough going on to attract a man to stick around for more than a few dates without sex, you've definitely got weak self-esteem that needs to be strengthened.

 

I promise you that when you love yourself and treat yourself like the lovely woman you are, many good guys will notice and want to do the same

[edgygirl]

Thank you! Gotta love this forum. I think you guys are starting to make me feel less weirdo. Ha!

 

I get exactly what you're saying because I think my self-imposed celibacy in the last 7 months probably came from not wanting to try and find a relationship. I just got sick of it all and was really afraid to date and fall for someone and behave and do things I didn't want and screw it all.

 

I have to evolve as you are trying to do, and find my common denominator and work on dating without expectations and this passion I have inside that is hard to tame. I guess I am afraid as you are, to tame my passion, because it's one of the greatest qualities in me It's a shame it hinders my relationships!

 

This is a GREAT thread.

 

OP, I've had the exact same problem. EXCEPT, I never slept with someone on the first date and expected it to turn into a relationship. My last LTR of 6 years, we waited three months. And, just recently, a guy I dated we slept together on the 4th date (somewhere around 1.5-2 months in).

 

Part of my issue, is that I am a highly complex individual and while I appear bubbly on the surface, I can come off very aloof emotionally. The common denominator in my failed relationships, is me. Granted, it takes two for a relationship to form, whether it be platonic; sexual; emotional, etc.

 

I am learning to tone down my carefree nature, which makes me a bit sad, because it's like a little piece of me has been removed but I'm trying to reconcile with that. The problem for me, is I usually go from one extreme to the other and have difficulty finding a middle ground. Now I feel SO closed off emotionally from wanting to forge a bond with anyone and I am struggling to change that. It got so bad that I had ZERO interest in dating ANYONE, anytime a guy approached me showed interest I'd deflect it. There was a cute guy that approached me the other day and I could tell he wanted to get to know me better, but, I then deferred him off onto my female friend.

 

I don't have much advice to offer, just wanted to say you're not alone.

[It's Just Me]

I didn't read through all the pages, EdgyGirl, but here's what I think, based on your first post.

 

To quote Albert Einstein, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting a different result." Therefore, if you want to see a change in your universe, start by changing YOU and your approach to these situations. If this means keeping your pants on in the early days of dating, so be it. How long have you been living in North America? Stop blaming cultural differences, please - it didn't work while you were in South America, either.

 

Yes, there are some men that only want sex, but that's easy to spot at a hundred paces, if you're smart. And those are the men who can spot the women who will jump into bed easily.

 

Another quote? "Be the change that you wish to see." (Ghandi). Good luck!

[edgygirl]

Hehe. I might have been unlucky. Had two relationships with American guys, first one was younger than me so maybe that's why he didn't really know to please me that well consistently, and the second one was okay but we were probably not a match. The others were all one night stands and I guess it's harder to judge performance in this case. Although this last guy was great no doubt about it.

 

Yes my attitude in real life must be showing otherwise, that I only want immediate fun or so, I have to become more aware of that and work on it. As per self esteem... I don't feel that great about my life so yes should probably work on that too. But mainly it's past relationships and the annoyance of "dating" that makes me feel like it's hard to keep a guy interested. See, in my country we don't date. We meet people through friends or in bars and it's very organic how things develop. Maybe that's why I have problems adapting here to this "dating" thing.

 

Hey, watch it, sister. Don't diss my countrymen I'm sure your attitude is a factor here. I'm American, most of my relationships have been with American men, and I've found that they are VERY generous, sensual, and good in bed.

 

I hear what you're saying about specifying what you want in your profile - but you need to realize that your attitude comes through in all kinds of ways you might not be aware of. If you think you don't have enough going on to attract a man to stick around for more than a few dates without sex, you've definitely got weak self-esteem that needs to be strengthened.

 

I promise you that when you love yourself and treat yourself like the lovely woman you are, many good guys will notice and want to do the same