Long term affairs

[frozensprouts]

Ditto.

 

I find it bizarre when someone says their MM is split-self or has some other behavioral/communication problem where he avoids conflict, but make it seem like somehow a new woman will change this. No a new woman won't. If your problem is behavioral or how you deal with conflict...then you'll do it no matter who you're with, as it's about you and not another person.

 

Falling in love is hardly the point. It's evident that falling in love is the easy part; however, making a relationship work which is where those skills of communication, being self-aware, not having a "split" that hinders your responses to life etc. come in. Falling in love takes no skills...having a decent relationship that's sustainable does though

 

an analogy to that ( albeit a weird one) is when someone has a chronic health issue that causes pain and takes pain meds, for it..

.

I take pain meds. for my back..they provide temporary relief, but they really don't change anything, and once they've worn off, the pain comes back, as the underlying problem is still there. There may be a surgery that could fix the problem, but it's painful, complicated, difficult and the recuperation is really long...

 

relationships are kind of like that...the new relationship is like the pain meds.- they provide temporary relief, but change nothing. Making a permanent chnage is possible, but it can be a long, difficult and painful process that many don't wish to undertake...as long as they don't, the underlying isue is still there, and the next time it "flares up" they be seeking more "pain relief" ( falling back into bad habits)

[MissBee]

But who says they won't communicate in the second relationship?

 

Chances are, if they have a communication problem, it is not about the relationship but them...so no matter who, same thing.

 

That's the mistake people make...believing they have the power to change this person, or their relationship will change this person's behavioral patterns. I guess that's what a lot of OW do...they believe that it is the BS's fault, the marriages fault and don't stop to think, maybe it's just this person.

 

My mom for example, KNEW my dad's history of infidelity, married him anyway and thought he would be different in their relationship. He wasn't. Big surprise there . She too held on to delusional hopes that their relationship would be different, and what evidence did she have? None...just thinking ohh I'm different, he loves me, he'll just be different. No. He learned these behaviors, he has his own issues and he has never addressed them so has not changed. Likewise, each OW he gets, esp this last one, tried to tell my mom all about how good of a man he was and it was because she didn't appreciate him etc...LMAOOOO . It's normal I guess to always believe your relationship is special...but it's also foolish to believe that people spontaneously change behaviors without any serious work and effort...they just switch partners and voila!

[Decorative]

It is actually quite comforting to have a handle on the facts.

 

It is a relief, in so many different ways.

[j'adore]

Well it is pointless arguing with smugness and indifference, I guess your h had the same problems

[BetrayedH]

Well it is pointless arguing with smugness and indifference' date=' I guess your h had the same problems[/quote']

 

Don't forget that we are also bitter.

[j'adore]

Don't forget that we are also bitter.

Thank you for the insight, I get it now.

[j'adore]

People have ingrained patterns, that are very difficult to change.

 

Chances are IF you end up with this mm, you will have the same problems with him that his wife did, the same crap that drives her nuts, will drive you nuts and don't forget he has illustrated that cheating is his way of handling a relationship when it's not going to suit him. Also if you end up with him, the things about his wife that drove him crazy, will likely be the same things that you will do to, but yet.........a lot of ow, who end up married to the mm, have an impossible standard of trying to be completely different than what they thought the wife was like. Some ow's turn out to lose themselves completely trying to be something they are not, just trying to hang on to a man, that if they had looked at it smartly wouldn't have wanted in the first place. Also you'll always wonder if he will cheat on you. Not a good way to live.

 

You assume that it is only WS who are responsible for reaching out for APs, but what if all I said were true, that she never discussed any problems, I truly believe this happened. You have to communicate, and yes it takes two.

 

Whether you believe it or not, neither me nor MM are EVER going to go through this again,...... I am sure of it, it has been a life changing experience never to be repeated, I am sure there are others who go on to their next one, but not us, whether we end up together or not NO WAY. i will get another cat and he said he would rather go paragliding LOL.

[j'adore]

Unless one works harder to overcome flaws, habitual processes are always easier than working. What you saw as a child played a roll in what you did as an adult...habits can be a biotch.

Actually I am an intelligent woman, really conscious of my parents' mistakes and work hard not to repeat them

[j'adore]

Some MW won't divorce either because they would rather suck their poor husbands dry of resources than leave. All the same excuses as the MM.

 

I am not sure you are being sarcastic but I am sure that is true, as long as the money keeps rolling in and appearances can be kept.

[seren]

A very good friend of mine had an A for over 20 years with a MM, she was single. They met through union stuff and would spend weekends during conferences together, meet up for lunch during the week, spend the odd night together and she adored him. Knowing my view of A's she would explain it by saying his wife only had one kidney (I kid you not) and that she was so ill, was hanging on by the skin of her teeth and that he couldn't leave her as he took care of her (he was a male nurse). His daughter was in high school, he would leave once she was settled. My friend made all sorts of plans for the future, her life was spent waiting for him to have time to see her, making excuses for him not turning up etc.

 

During the 20 years she had many times when he let her down, his wife being the excuse, he was caring for her, her kidney was failing and once actually said, 'not long now'. In the last 2 years of their A she watched her 2 yr old grandson die with heart disease, she really needed him at the funeral - he never showed. Her Dad died, she really needed him - he never showed, he was supposed to go to her daughter's wedding with her - he never showed. I tried to tell her she was wasting her life, why didn't he leave - his sick wife, daughter and then grandson.

 

I was in his local town, saw him and his 'sick' wife, said Hi to him asked how she was, they had just booked a cruise for their anniversary and she sure looked well and they sure looked happy. I told my friend, she made another excuse, his daughter left home, had a baby, he couldn't leave he was now a Grandad. Then he said the day for leaving would be when he retired, well he retired and he and his wife sold up and moved into another house, one he and my friend had viewed for them. His wife had two fully functioning kidney's, it just helped the A to continue.

 

The person I felt for was my friend, she was a lovely person, dammed strong assertive woman, but he was her weakness and he exploited it for his own ends. The funeral of her grandson opened her eyes she told his wife and he worked his butt off to say my friend was a crazy stalker. 20 bloody years!! I never understood it, how can anyone know the person they love is going home to another life, sharing the day to day, intimate stuff with another baffles me. He just dropped off the radar when he retired and she didn't contact him, she stopped looking after herself and was so bloody beaten down by it. This lovely assertive woman changed and I so wish she hadn't. Yes she knew he was married, yes she enabled him to hurt his wife, but as my friend I wanted more for her. I will never understand A's, I certainly cannot get my head around long term A's at all.

[cocorico]

A very good friend of mine had an A for over 20 years with a MM, she was single. They met through union stuff and would spend weekends during conferences together, meet up for lunch during the week, spend the odd night together and she adored him. Knowing my view of A's she would explain it by saying his wife only had one kidney (I kid you not) and that she was so ill, was hanging on by the skin of her teeth and that he couldn't leave her as he took care of her (he was a male nurse). His daughter was in high school, he would leave once she was settled. My friend made all sorts of plans for the future, her life was spent waiting for him to have time to see her, making excuses for him not turning up etc.

 

During the 20 years she had many times when he let her down, his wife being the excuse, he was caring for her, her kidney was failing and once actually said, 'not long now'. In the last 2 years of their A she watched her 2 yr old grandson die with heart disease, she really needed him at the funeral - he never showed. Her Dad died, she really needed him - he never showed, he was supposed to go to her daughter's wedding with her - he never showed. I tried to tell her she was wasting her life, why didn't he leave - his sick wife, daughter and then grandson.

 

I was in his local town, saw him and his 'sick' wife, said Hi to him asked how she was, they had just booked a cruise for their anniversary and she sure looked well and they sure looked happy. I told my friend, she made another excuse, his daughter left home, had a baby, he couldn't leave he was now a Grandad. Then he said the day for leaving would be when he retired, well he retired and he and his wife sold up and moved into another house, one he and my friend had viewed for them. His wife had two fully functioning kidney's, it just helped the A to continue.

 

The person I felt for was my friend, she was a lovely person, dammed strong assertive woman, but he was her weakness and he exploited it for his own ends. The funeral of her grandson opened her eyes she told his wife and he worked his butt off to say my friend was a crazy stalker. 20 bloody years!! I never understood it, how can anyone know the person they love is going home to another life, sharing the day to day, intimate stuff with another baffles me. He just dropped off the radar when he retired and she didn't contact him, she stopped looking after herself and was so bloody beaten down by it. This lovely assertive woman changed and I so wish she hadn't. Yes she knew he was married, yes she enabled him to hurt his wife, but as my friend I wanted more for her. I will never understand A's, I certainly cannot get my head around long term A's at all.

 

I agree that this is a very sad scenario. Clearly the OW wanted more, and was led to believe she would get it. I consider an R based on dishonesty like that to be exploitative and would certainly never recommend such a situation to anyone.

 

However, not all LTAs are based on unrequited longing and hope. I have a friend who has been in an A for 12? 15? 18? years. For at least some of the A she was M herself, but for most of it she's been S, out of choice. She has two sons, one from each of her Ms, and did not ever have a child-free weekend. She works full-time, has numerous cultural pursuits demanding her time and also volunteers for several worthy causes, so had no interest in a FTR. Her MM OTOH had an open M where he was "allowed" to have sex outside of his M (his W did too) and this suited my friend very well, having him on call when she wanted him, but him not being in her face when she didn't. Subsequently however the BW decided that she was bored with the arrangement and demanded that her H stopped seeing my friend; he refused and continues to see her covertly, while his BW insists to everyone that the A is now over and they are fully monogamous. But the A continues to work well for my friend, and she has no wish to change the arrangement even though her MM has indicated that he would be willing to D his W should she want a FTR.

[frozensprouts]

A very good friend of mine had an A for over 20 years with a MM, she was single. They met through union stuff and would spend weekends during conferences together, meet up for lunch during the week, spend the odd night together and she adored him. Knowing my view of A's she would explain it by saying his wife only had one kidney (I kid you not) and that she was so ill, was hanging on by the skin of her teeth and that he couldn't leave her as he took care of her (he was a male nurse). His daughter was in high school, he would leave once she was settled. My friend made all sorts of plans for the future, her life was spent waiting for him to have time to see her, making excuses for him not turning up etc.

 

During the 20 years she had many times when he let her down, his wife being the excuse, he was caring for her, her kidney was failing and once actually said, 'not long now'. In the last 2 years of their A she watched her 2 yr old grandson die with heart disease, she really needed him at the funeral - he never showed. Her Dad died, she really needed him - he never showed, he was supposed to go to her daughter's wedding with her - he never showed. I tried to tell her she was wasting her life, why didn't he leave - his sick wife, daughter and then grandson.

 

I was in his local town, saw him and his 'sick' wife, said Hi to him asked how she was, they had just booked a cruise for their anniversary and she sure looked well and they sure looked happy. I told my friend, she made another excuse, his daughter left home, had a baby, he couldn't leave he was now a Grandad. Then he said the day for leaving would be when he retired, well he retired and he and his wife sold up and moved into another house, one he and my friend had viewed for them. His wife had two fully functioning kidney's, it just helped the A to continue.

 

The person I felt for was my friend, she was a lovely person, dammed strong assertive woman, but he was her weakness and he exploited it for his own ends. The funeral of her grandson opened her eyes she told his wife and he worked his butt off to say my friend was a crazy stalker. 20 bloody years!! I never understood it, how can anyone know the person they love is going home to another life, sharing the day to day, intimate stuff with another baffles me. He just dropped off the radar when he retired and she didn't contact him, she stopped looking after herself and was so bloody beaten down by it. This lovely assertive woman changed and I so wish she hadn't. Yes she knew he was married, yes she enabled him to hurt his wife, but as my friend I wanted more for her. I will never understand A's, I certainly cannot get my head around long term A's at all.

 

I don't want to sound horrible, but I guess I don't understand how someone would allow that to to continue for so long....why was she willing to accept being treated so badly for 20 years? Why didn't she think she deserved any better?

[cocorico]

:laugh:

Somehow I think if he was actually called to the table, the wife would suddenly develop some terminal illness.

 

Your friend should test it out and tell him she wants him to get a divorce. I think deep down she knows what would happen.

 

She knows the W. We all do. They have no kids, their M is primarily a working partnership, so I can understand them staying together to facilitate that bit beyond it they do lead pretty separate lives. I'm sure he would D, he's very smitten, but she's less invested as she has so much else going on in her life and really couldn't be bothered. So it works for her.

 

But for an OW hoping he'll leave, wanting more and getting strung along with empty promises and false hope - not so much.

[MissBee]

A very good friend of mine had an A for over 20 years with a MM, she was single. They met through union stuff and would spend weekends during conferences together, meet up for lunch during the week, spend the odd night together and she adored him. Knowing my view of A's she would explain it by saying his wife only had one kidney (I kid you not) and that she was so ill, was hanging on by the skin of her teeth and that he couldn't leave her as he took care of her (he was a male nurse). His daughter was in high school, he would leave once she was settled. My friend made all sorts of plans for the future, her life was spent waiting for him to have time to see her, making excuses for him not turning up etc.

 

During the 20 years she had many times when he let her down, his wife being the excuse, he was caring for her, her kidney was failing and once actually said, 'not long now'. In the last 2 years of their A she watched her 2 yr old grandson die with heart disease, she really needed him at the funeral - he never showed. Her Dad died, she really needed him - he never showed, he was supposed to go to her daughter's wedding with her - he never showed. I tried to tell her she was wasting her life, why didn't he leave - his sick wife, daughter and then grandson.

 

I was in his local town, saw him and his 'sick' wife, said Hi to him asked how she was, they had just booked a cruise for their anniversary and she sure looked well and they sure looked happy. I told my friend, she made another excuse, his daughter left home, had a baby, he couldn't leave he was now a Grandad. Then he said the day for leaving would be when he retired, well he retired and he and his wife sold up and moved into another house, one he and my friend had viewed for them. His wife had two fully functioning kidney's, it just helped the A to continue.

 

The person I felt for was my friend, she was a lovely person, dammed strong assertive woman, but he was her weakness and he exploited it for his own ends. The funeral of her grandson opened her eyes she told his wife and he worked his butt off to say my friend was a crazy stalker. 20 bloody years!! I never understood it, how can anyone know the person they love is going home to another life, sharing the day to day, intimate stuff with another baffles me. He just dropped off the radar when he retired and she didn't contact him, she stopped looking after herself and was so bloody beaten down by it. This lovely assertive woman changed and I so wish she hadn't. Yes she knew he was married, yes she enabled him to hurt his wife, but as my friend I wanted more for her. I will never understand A's, I certainly cannot get my head around long term A's at all.

 

This is so sad. I'm afraid for a friend of mine who has been in a 5 year A...still waiting and hoping, because she sounds a bit like your friend.

 

She is a brilliant woman, she's a doctoral student, she counsels other people often, she's older than I am and she is a genuinely sweet, caring, warm, kind-hearted person...but this situation is her weakness too. Based on what I know of her dating past, she has always had a penchant for being in questionable relationships but she doesn't see this one as questionable..when it's just as questionable. I also think she has daddy issues and this MM could be her dad!

 

Last year she kept talking about wanting to have babies and her wedding....(she was planning all of this with the MM who has not asked for a divorce, who has not even said he wants to marry her). I thought it was a bit crazy to be planning your babies and wedding with a man you're not even engaged to, who you're not even in a FULLY open relationship with. I mean she was really discussing it in the way that a woman who is currently engaged, ring and all or currently in a regular relationship where she and her partner both already planned it would. Yet, they had not and this was no ordinary situation and it certainly DID NOT have the same options. She said she hoped to be married by this year (to this MM). Well, needless to say, she is NOT married, engaged or anything and he is very much still married with a 6 year old child and excuses up to his eyeballs. My friend keeps saying his wife knows and he can't leave his child yet etc. But like many OW...her frustration and reality slaps comes in cycles. Some days she is frustrated and furious and argues with him about it. At one point it even came down to her saying his wife asked for a divorce and he is the one who won't sign the papers... Whaaat??! So if his wife wants to divorce him and he is choosing not to do so..what's really going on here? She will go from an ultimatum to not being able to live without him and bargaining to be his "second wife"....yes...she has resorted to saying that she is willing to be in a polygamous relationship (mind you, he is not polygamous, so I have no idea why SHE is the one making these suggestions). But she has gone to the depths of the absurd to still have this man. I despise him a lot frankly, every time I see him I have to feign being nice to him, as I feel he is manipulative and full of shiiit! He has a wife and my friend and is living his life...and he lets her know she is "his" and so she fully faithful to him, yet Lord knows I'd not be surprised if he had an OOW.

 

All in all it is very sad for me to witness as she deserves a lot more. She is by no means stupid, but there is a lot going on with anyone allowing such a situation, esp. for an extended period of time. I don't think, as much as she can see things in other people, that she fully understands how she got here. I hope every single day that he will dump her so she can hurt and move on or that she will wake up. As clearly, no logic, no warnings of loved ones helps when one is caught up. She is kind of the mother hen of our friends, and older than me by about 8 or so years, and it would be sad if all her younger friends are marrying and being in legitimate relationships and having babies some years from now and she is still waiting and planning a fantasy life that isn't coming to fruition.

Edited December 7, 2012 by MissBee

[MissBee]

Something I have noticed on the ow forum re: women who have been in long term affairs, not all but a lot of them. Their posts really disturb me, it's like their thinking and the way they view that relationship and other relationships are really foreign and skewed to me. I think these long term affairs do a lot of damage and maybe it's damage that can never been repaired. I guess any thing that you do long term eventually becomes normal. In some cases that certainly is not a good thing.

 

I agree...

 

What I can almost always bet on, is a history of either abuse or cheating by parents or previous relationship partners in a lot of the LTAs where the rationale is beyond me. There's no fire without smoke usually and a lot of the ones brought to LS, as the story unfolds or you read other posts you get a sense that what is normal for this person is very tumultuous situations. For some, compared to previous experiences, a MM who I guess is half-way decent, in that he may not be a drug addict, or alcohol abuser or physically abusive, is better than nothing or certainly better than what they experienced before. His "other problems" especially those of a behavioral nature, like a split-self issue etc. is more appealing than other options. Which I do understand. However, those situations reinforce to me the almost inherent unhealthy nature of most As, esp ones that go on forever

 

I agree with jj, that if you don't know what healthy relationships look like, then usually you repeat different kinds of unhealthy ones. Lots of OW on LS seemed to have "graduated" or "upgraded" from abusive spouses to married men. On one hand I get how it's seen as an "upgrade" but in reality, it's just the opposite side of the same coin of gravitating towards unhealthy situations. I'm not exempt, I realized some years ago how I'd gravitate towards unhealthy situations too. Mine might not have been as blatantly messed up as some (and come on, if you compare yourself to those worse off, you'll always not be "that bad") but it certainly was its own mess!

Edited December 7, 2012 by MissBee

[seren]

I don't want to sound horrible, but I guess I don't understand how someone would allow that to to continue for so long....why was she willing to accept being treated so badly for 20 years? Why didn't she think she deserved any better?

 

 

I guess she loved him, in fact it is fair to say she adored him, he gave every appearance of feeling the same way. I actually thought he would leave his wife, I believed they would be together after his divorce, but then when she really needed him, he wasn't there and that was when I started to think he was lying. He just didn't turn up for the bad times, the times she needed him the most and I began to watch more closely - she was my assistant and my friend and a dammed fiesty woman. Helped anyone and everyone and it was like watching a train crash waiting to happen, but she believed in him and believed in them.

 

I don't suppose the trusting and believing someone you love is any different for any of us, that she settled for being the OW always was a bone of contention between us, but my role as her friend was to catch her when she fell and she fell hard and never really got up again properly afterwards.

The lies he told, the ease with which he said the things she needed to hear were awful, Afterwards she ended up with an old man and stopped looking after herself, she became a very different woman. Sad, truly very sad.