Not such a simple question

[Sparkle88]

Hi there...I've been reading many of the posts in this forum and have a question. Does anyone have a story where the OW ended up with the MM? Or the MW and MM ended up together?

[Pierre]

Hi there...I've been reading many of the posts in this forum and have a question. Does anyone have a story where the OW ended up with the MM? Or the MW and MM ended up together?

 

There are a few. Mostly the MM was on an exit affair. Meaning he was getting out no matter what. There is only one known study that sort of looked at this and the odds of success are only 3% even when both sides end up getting a divorce. Most people in the forum have failed.

[canuckprincess]

I think there are alot of factors to figure in. How long the affair has been going on, if there's kids involved, money plays a huge factor. Also if the ow and om are ok with just being the ow or om then often the mm or mw have no reason to leave. They can sit on the fence and enjoy the best of both worlds.

 

Betrayed spouses want to believe that their WS would never leave them, and often a WS is guilted into staying. The bs will threaten to take the kids or take them to the cleaners. Some even threaten to kill themselves. It is truly sad, if the person you love isn't happy or satisfied why would you force them to stay.

 

If they never leave why is divorce rate over 50% in Canada and the US?????

[MissBee]

Hi there...I've been reading many of the posts in this forum and have a question. Does anyone have a story where the OW ended up with the MM? Or the MW and MM ended up together?

 

Yep there are a few stories like that here.

 

However, as you probably expect (as you wouldn't ask if it was something you didn't find hard to find) they're not the super common stories. But it does happen.

 

You haven't said anything about your own story; but, I imagine you're looking for some hope for your situation. That's really going to depend.

[woinlove]

If they never leave why is divorce rate over 50% in Canada and the US?????

 

Actually, the divorce rate in the US and Canada has fallen over the last couple decades as education levels for women have risen. The latest percentages I've seen are 46% (US) and 40% (Canada). This includes all marriages, including 2nd, 3rd, etc, so noticeably more than 54% of married couple in the US will never divorce, as some people will go through divorce multiple times. Women file for approximately 2/3 of divorces and it is estimated that approximately 50% of them were abused in the marriage. High divorce rates correlate with poverty and low education. Higher education for women has a big effect on divorce rate, which drops to around 20% (US) for college educated women marrying in their 20's or later.

 

And a MM divorcing is no guarantee of ending up with the OW. In my case, I ended the R when MM divorced. One might include him in a divorce statistic involving infidelity, but not in one involving the OW and MM continuing as a couple beyond the divorce.

[canuckprincess]

Actually, the divorce rate in the US and Canada has fallen over the last couple decades as education levels for women have risen. The latest percentages I've seen are 46% (US) and 40% (Canada). This includes all marriages, including 2nd, 3rd, etc, so noticeably more than 54% of married couple in the US will never divorce, as some people will go through divorce multiple times. Women file for approximately 2/3 of divorces and it is estimated that approximately 50% of them were abused in the marriage. High divorce rates correlate with poverty and low education. Higher education for women has a big effect on divorce rate, which drops to around 20% (US) for college educated women marrying in their 20's or later.

 

And a MM divorcing is no guarantee of ending up with the OW. In my case, I ended the R when MM divorced. One might include him in a divorce statistic involving infidelity, but not in one involving the OW and MM continuing as a couple beyond the divorce.

 

Thank you for your post, very enlightening. I am divorced because I married the wrong man. We had nothing in common and it took me 10 years to figure that out. As for the 3 % that is mentioned on this site and other infidelity sites I believe they are unfounded stats. If our mm or mw left the marriage for the ap we wouldn't be on here posting we would be living our life and building new memories.

[woinlove]

As for the 3 % that is mentioned on this site and other infidelity sites I believe they are unfounded stats.

 

If I recall correctly, the 3% comes from a specific group - successful businessmen, i.e. well-off financially. These men may be more likely to marry the kind of wife they want and they may be more likely to feel entitled to a wife and an OW (or several OW). On the latter point, I recall some less formal study came to that conclusion for successful, wealthy men and a couple self-described serial cheaters who post here seem to fall into that category.

[Summer Breeze]

Hi there...I've been reading many of the posts in this forum and have a question. Does anyone have a story where the OW ended up with the MM? Or the MW and MM ended up together?

 

Yes it does happen and I'm going through it myself right now. I ended things about 4 years ago with DMM. About this time last year he moved out and he filed for divorce not long after. I didn't know till part way through the summer and we didn't see each other till after the D was final. He was a MM who said from the start he would never leave home. I ended the R when it wasn't enough for me.

 

I also think the stats are pretty skewed. I know quite a few couples who are together in LTRs now that it started from As. Some I knew in the midst of it and some I found out as our friendships developed.

 

I wouldn't count on it though. Although I don't regret a moment of my R with DMM I don't recommend anyone to get into an A.

[Pierre]

Yes it does happen and I'm going through it myself right now. I ended things about 4 years ago with DMM. About this time last year he moved out and he filed for divorce not long after. I didn't know till part way through the summer and we didn't see each other till after the D was final. He was a MM who said from the start he would never leave home. I ended the R when it wasn't enough for me.

 

I also think the stats are pretty skewed. I know quite a few couples who are together in LTRs now that it started from As. Some I knew in the midst of it and some I found out as our friendships developed.

 

I wouldn't count on it though. Although I don't regret a moment of my R with DMM I don't recommend anyone to get into an A.

 

When someone mentions the the chances for lovers in EMRs to have along term successful relationship is low everybody questions the sources and the published study that mentioned 3% at best.

 

When someone else posts that the rate of success of EMRs is quite high (because they know some people who did it) no one demands published data or expert opinion on the subject.

 

It is called rationalization.

[Henni]

Actually, the divorce rate in the US and Canada has fallen over the last couple decades as education levels for women have risen. The latest percentages I've seen are 46% (US) and 40% (Canada). This includes all marriages, including 2nd, 3rd, etc, so noticeably more than 54% of married couple in the US will never divorce, as some people will go through divorce multiple times. Women file for approximately 2/3 of divorces and it is estimated that approximately 50% of them were abused in the marriage. High divorce rates correlate with poverty and low education. Higher education for women has a big effect on divorce rate, which drops to around 20% (US) for college educated women marrying in their 20's or later.

 

And a MM divorcing is no guarantee of ending up with the OW. In my case, I ended the R when MM divorced. One might include him in a divorce statistic involving infidelity, but not in one involving the OW and MM continuing as a couple beyond the divorce.

 

I was reading up on falling divorce rates recently, and it seems that the biggest factor is a drop in the number of people actually getting married, that's correlated with education too, in that educated women and men are either marrying later, or not at all. Divorce rates are highest for those that marry under 25, and lowest for those marrying after 30.

 

I don't trust any statistics on how many relationships that start in A end up as LTR / M / SO. The reason is that I don't think people who start their relationship in affairs are going to want to advertise that. There has to be a large bias in the results. I wouldn't want anyone knowing that about me, anyway. I don't see the point if a marriage is going to end, why add salt to the wound? Better to let loved ones come to terms with it then being open about the relationship when people are less likely to get hurt by it. Even years after D, it would be hurtful to most people, I think, to find out their SO was in an A during the M. Most of these statistics come from asking people in therapy about their A anyway. So, there's an inbuilt bias too - those people are in therapy - and hence probably not representative of those who are not in therapy.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Henni

[Decorative]

If I recall correctly, the 3% comes from a specific group - successful businessmen, i.e. well-off financially. These men may be more likely to marry the kind of wife they want and they may be more likely to feel entitled to a wife and an OW (or several OW). On the latter point, I recall some less formal study came to that conclusion for successful, wealthy men and a couple self-described serial cheaters who post here seem to fall into that category.

 

Yes. You are correct. Halper's study is the source of 3%, and there are other studies that move it down a little, and up a little. Based on a discussion the other day- I researched it looking to see a possible debunking of that stat, or the others. None of them are perfect studies- but they all trend in the same low percentage of success direction . I tried to find an exception that would exclude a correlation , and did not find one.

 

To the OP- I suggest reading Frank Pittman's work on affairs, and Shirley Glass.

 

They are easily accessible through Amazon.

 

You'll see what the obstacles are, and why affair relationships very rarely withstand reality testing. There are many reasons for this, but if you are involved in an affair- it's best to know what is ahead of you.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Decorative

[Decorative]

When someone mentions the the chances for lovers in EMRs to have along term successful relationship is low everybody questions the sources and the published study that mentioned 3% at best.

 

When someone else posts that the rate of success of EMRs is quite high (because they know some people who did it) no one demands published data or expert opinion on the subject.

 

It is called rationalization.

 

Yes, yes it is. LOL!!!

 

Anecdotes do not data make. / nerdgirlforever

[Henni]

Yes, yes it is. LOL!!!

 

Anecdotes do not data make. / nerdgirlforever

 

Interesting article in Journal of Family Issues; Nov2012, Vol. 33 Issue 11, p1477-1493, 17p, Elizabeth S. Allen, David C. Atkins, suggest that 'more than half of men and women who engage in Extra Marital Sex also separate or divorce from their spouse'

 

14% of married women and 23% of married men, who were not selected based on participation in therapy or online help groups, had participated in extra marital sex. The sample group was 16,090 american spouses, 9,401 women. Each survey involves a national, cross-sectional sample of noninstitutionalized, English-speaking individuals 18 years of age or older in the continental United States.

 

Of those men who had had an affair, between 41% and 62% divorced or separated from that marriage. For women who had had an affair, between 48% and 67% divorced or separated from that marriage.

 

Women had half the odds of reporting A to their spouse compared with men.

 

Here's a quote from the discussion section:

'With few exceptions, past research using small or nonrepresentative samples has found that the majority of couples who have experienced infidelity do not divorce in the time period assessed. In contrast, and contrary to hypotheses, the current data from a large representative U.S. community sample indicate that more than half of individuals who engage in EMS do, in fact, divorce or separate from their spouse. Most of the previous research relies on clinical or help-seeking samples, whereas the GSS has no such restrictions. As such, the current findings based on the GSS better represent rates of divorce given own EMS in the population in general.'

 

This doesn't say whether they ended up with the person they had had an affair with, but all the calls of 'WM/WW don't leave their BS' seems like BS, statistically.

 

I am also a complete nerd. I teach statistics. Can supply the full article somehow if you want, it's not open access.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Henni

[alexandria35]

Of those men who had had an affair, between 41% and 62% divorced or separated from that marriage. For women who had had an affair, between 48% and 67% divorced or separated from that marriage.

 

Women initiate divorce more than men do. I'll bet a good number of the men in the above quoted statistic only got divorced becaue their wives got tired of their cheating asses and divorced them.

[Henni]

Women initiate divorce more than men do. I'll bet a good number of the men in the above quoted statistic only got divorced becaue their wives got tired of their cheating asses and divorced them.

 

I think it's probably more properly explained by this:

'Women had half the odds of reporting A to their spouse compared with men.'

[Decorative]

Women initiate divorce more than men do. I'll bet a good number of the men in the above quoted statistic only got divorced becaue their wives got tired of their cheating asses and divorced them.

 

Yes.

 

And a divorce does not mean that the affair partners end up together. I realize that is stating the obvious, but I am a stickler for details.

[Henni]

Sorry, I meant

 

I'll also bet a lot of the women who initiated divorce fell hard for a MM and thought the MM would follow their lead if they got divorced.

 

The stats cited only refer to a person's own extramarital sex and whether they themselves divorced, it doesn't report the marital status of the person they were having an affair with.

[Henni]

Yes.

 

And a divorce does not mean that the affair partners end up together. I realize that is stating the obvious, but I am a stickler for details.

 

Yes I stated that in my first posting of the research, I too am a stickler for details and despise sloppy here-say type reporting and abuse of statistics. It does however mean it's completely untrue that married men and women who have affairs don't divorce. More than half of them do.

 

My reason for posting this is to show that the stats quoted elsewhere and here of 3% bla bla are from studies that break the most important rule of statistics: measuring a representative sample. This study cites all those others, and quite rightly points out the bias inherent in the sample that lead to results not representative. In short, those studies are rubbish.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Henni

[Henni]

Also stating the obvious is that you can in fact skew statistics to make them reflect anything you want.

 

Most people's relationships fail if you want to play numbers games.

 

If you date 20 people over the course of your life and you end up with 1, you have a 5% success rate or a 95% failure rate.

 

The thing about affairs is that it's hard to collect relevant data and then it's presented in whatever light people want it to be.

It's hard to determine how many people are cheated on, how many cheat and how many end up together after cheating. Marriages or affairs. People don't necessarily want to share those details, so it's hard to collect accurate data.

 

Statistics are abused everywhere, that's why I went looking for a peer reviewed scientific journal, where sloppy statistics will not be published, and a study that tested a much larger cohort of a truly representative sample. I've also thoroughly checked out their analysis methods and they seem reasonable to me. So many studies just correlate, which means nothing whatsoever. It's not even inferential, anything will correlate with anything if you collect enough data. Just....rubbish. All the other studies cited here and in other threads prior to this had biased sampling, by using a small number of people engaged in therapy or seeking help online as representative of actual national population. The study I cited is sound, statistically. Numbers don't lie, people do. Dammit, I hate when people rattle off numbers like that. Good stats brought us all medical and scientific cures and medicines. Applied correctly with proper sampling, they do tell the truth.

 

...nerd-rant over...sorry...

Edited December 3, 2012 by Henni

[Pierre]

Also stating the obvious is that you can in fact skew statistics to make them reflect anything you want.

 

Most people's relationships fail if you want to play numbers games.

 

If you date 20 people over the course of your life and you end up with 1, you have a 5% success rate or a 95% failure rate.

 

The thing about affairs is that it's hard to collect relevant data and then it's presented in whatever light people want it to be.

It's hard to determine how many people are cheated on, how many cheat and how many end up together after cheating. Marriages or affairs. People don't necessarily want to share those details, so it's hard to collect accurate data.

 

Perhaps the abysmal rate of failure reflected in the forum has to do with selection bias.

 

In other words the countless happy OWs that are married with their guy never bothered to post in these forums and hence we have a false picture of reality.

[MourningLosses]

Whichever statistics are right, why are we hoping the odds are "better" that the marriage breaks up related to an affair? Does it make us feel better or validate we were somehow so much more loved than her that we busted up her marriage? I think we do. It's probably not nice but I hope they divorce even if he doesn't want to and I hope they divorce even of he doesn'Ht end up with me.

 

I used to tell him I didn't want him to leave "for me". Who was I kidding? Of course I did. I wanted him to love me more than her and break up their marriage. She begged him back and he kept me going awhile before he suddenly dumped me. I guess she won. I still think they will fall apart- either because of their prior issues or that she will never forgive him for the betrayal, I know I wouldn't.

 

I realize now I didn't really want him to leave her but not for me. I didn't really mean it when I wished their marriage healed after he recommitted to her. I hate that he's probably got a happier marriage than before because she's making more effort. I think honestly quoting these statistics is just like that. You want marriages to fail as a result of an A so that you can argue his M should bust up because "the odds are so bad".

 

To be honest I was so goddamn jealous of her happy marriage I wanted it for myself. I am still goddamn jealous she has that M despite the A. I don't know how it could have survived. He told me he'd told her everything and I just can't believe that. Any self respecting woman would have kicked his ass for betraying her as much as he did with me.

It is probably selfish but I hope he ends up divorced, I would feel less as about being dumped if he was suffering and she was too. Right now I'm the only one suffering an they have each other.

 

My understanding of the 3% was that was the group who ended up happily long term with their AP. The divorce stats are kind of unrelated. It necessary but way off enough for him to get divorced.

Edited December 3, 2012 by MourningLosses

[Summer Breeze]

When someone mentions the the chances for lovers in EMRs to have along term successful relationship is low everybody questions the sources and the published study that mentioned 3% at best.

 

When someone else posts that the rate of success of EMRs is quite high (because they know some people who did it) no one demands published data or expert opinion on the subject.

 

It is called rationalization.

 

No, actually it's called participating in a thread on a forum and mentioning things that I see in my day to day life. I didn't demand published data because I know the people and it'd be a little silly to ask them to put into writing don't you think?

[Summer Breeze]

Yes, yes it is. LOL!!!

 

Anecdotes do not data make. / nerdgirlforever

 

Neither does 1 study that reached out to 1 very specific, and small, grouping of people. I believe it was 2,000 people and they were all very successful businessmen. Sorry but that doesn't really marry up to my day to day dealings. I don't doubt in the least the percentage is small but no one knows the full 'whys' as to why it's small. Could it be they left and tried but the R didn't last? Maybe they left and there were issues of work and travel that got into the mix that didn't work out. Maybe they went back to their previous partner. Who knows? I tend to look at things on a personal level and take my information from there. Some people hold onto that 3% like it's some sort of security blanket and they're welcome to do that as well. To me the way that one study is tossed around is more rationalization than someone quoting what they know to be fact with people they are involved in personally.

[Summer Breeze]

I've just read down through the rest of the thread rather than continue commenting on each post.

 

Interesting study Henni. Thanks for sharing that.

 

Comments about who initiated divorce. You have no more idea that the BS initiated or the WS did than I do or anyone else does. Those comments always make me laugh because they are meant to be so digging and I think they're probably having the exact opposite effect. An awful lot of BS end up staying and not choosing to D. I was shocked when I started reading forums because I couldn't believe how many people actually don't have the reaction of divorcing their sorry azzes.

[Furious]

Stats are unreliable, it seems that there's a stat available for anyone who is biased in their opinion.

 

There's even a stat I found on betrayed spouses who become the OW/OM, which I found to be interesting.

 

At the end of the day, the only stat that matters is your own life experience.