teach me stuff

[fortyninethousand322]

So I've decided that I've reached a point in my life where I'm sufficiently dissatisfied enough to want to give this dating thing a relatively honest try. I'm still a pessimist, but at least if I try hard enough I can have more evidence to bolster my case for pessimism.

 

As background for people unaware (not likely but anyway): I'm am almost 25 years old and I've never kissed a girl, etc. The last date I went on was February 2011. Every girl I've been interested in has ended up running for the hills as soon as I expressed that interest. No one has ever reciprocated interest or expressed interest in me without my reciprocation.

 

So, questions (for the purposes of this thread, pretend I'm a martian who has never been to earth and explain things in detail to me in ways I can understand):

 

-where does one meet women? And, once in such a place where women are present what exactly does one do?

 

-what is the normal level of escalation? A kiss on the first date? Can you hold hands (if so how)? What level of physical proximity is usually appropriate if both parties are receptive?

 

-how does one become "exclusive"? Does an awkward conversation ensue or is it automatic after a certain time period?

 

-what are good ideas for first dates?

 

-if one must use online dating, what is the appropriate process? Ask them out after 2 messages? 3? How exactly is OLD supposed to work?

 

Maybe I'll think of more but these are good to start. Obviously some of these may be subjective but I want to hear subjective answers alongside the objective ones. I want information and wisdom.

[Necris]

 

As background for people unaware (not likely but anyway): I'm am almost 25 years old and I've never kissed a girl, etc. The last date I went on was February 2011. Every girl I've been interested in has ended up running for the hills as soon as I expressed that interest. No one has ever reciprocated interest or expressed interest in me without my reciprocation.

 

Reminds me of myself, unfortunately I'm just as clueless.

 

I've experienced the running to the hills thing as well, I noticed girls can seem cool with me but if I express interest all of a sudden everything gets awkward as they avoid me afterwards.

[Meeks7]

49, how is your social life? Seriously, the better social life you have, more likely your chances increase... just because you're sharpening your social skills and working on what it means to be a good friend.

 

I met my SO through a guy friend. Honestly, that's probably the most common way people hook up these days, other than online dating. It's through a friend introducing them.

 

And what does one do?

 

Be charming... be confident. Sorry there's no fixed formula. Just be you. When the timing is right, it'll happen. But for some people it just takes longer.

[fortyninethousand322]

Reminds me of myself, unfortunately I'm just as clueless.

 

I've experienced the running to the hills thing as well, I noticed girls can seem cool with me but if I express interest all of a sudden everything gets awkward as they avoid me afterwards.

 

Indeed. Now, to me either I'm/we're cursed. Or, this is a problem that can be fixed. My inclinations are to believe the former, but the rational person within me wants to prove it.

[fortyninethousand322]

49, how is your social life? Seriously, the better social life you have, more likely your chances increase... just because you're sharpening your social skills and working on what it means to be a good friend.

 

I met my SO through a guy friend. Honestly, that's probably the most common way people hook up these days, other than online dating. It's through a friend introducing them.

 

And what does one do?

 

Be charming... be confident. Sorry there's no fixed formula. Just be you. When the timing is right, it'll happen. But for some people it just takes longer.

 

I don't know. For a while I had a pretty active one. Then I got a little depressed about life, dating, etc. last winter and kind of went into hibernation and only saw people on a few occasions (a couple of ballgames, some pickup basketball).

 

But, even in my heyday (and this was during college mind you) I had only a handful of interactions with women. All of them were from classes I took none were from my circle of friends and acquaintances. Most of the women my friends know are married or in relationships. Hence this thread on how to meet women and what to actually say/do once you do meet them.

[Necris]

Indeed. Now, to me either I'm/we're cursed. Or, this is a problem that can be fixed. My inclinations are to believe the former, but the rational person within me wants to prove it.

 

This maybe just a wild theory but perhaps they at first are comfortable with you in the beginning because they feel like you are the "safe" non-sexual/asexual/etc. but then when you express interest they are almost disturbed by your interest in them and now want to avoid you or something crazy like that.

[fortyninethousand322]

This maybe just a wild theory but perhaps they at first are comfortable with you in the beginning because they feel like you are the "safe" non-sexual/asexual/etc. but then when you express interest they are almost disturbed by your interest in them and now want to avoid you or something crazy like that.

 

Oh I totally buy that theory. I just want to prove it.

[Necris]

I met my SO through a guy friend. Honestly, that's probably the most common way people hook up these days, other than online dating. It's through a friend introducing them.

 

I find that odd that you say that, I hear about people being introduced to their SO through friends but in real-life I haven't seen nor experienced this my friends have never even remotely tried to help me out like this, its always been understood this is something you are alone in.

[somedude81]

Oh I totally buy that theory. I just want to prove it.

Want to prove it? Then you need to try something different.

 

Go out of your way to show interest from the start.

[fortyninethousand322]

This isn't just about getting dates by the way. This is also about a bunch of other things. Which is why I wrote all those questions.

[dasein]

Would love to see you succeed in dating, and feel you are capable of it. 49 you've been around here awhile, there are hundreds of threads on this stuff here. Are you really wanting to rehash them? If you were a newb here, would type out my standard repetitive spiel. Will spare the thread that for now.

[Necris]

Want to prove it? Then you need to try something different.

 

Go out of your way to show interest from the start.

 

That's a good way to get immediately rejected but at least you won't be confused as the asexual guy and you already aren't getting any luck anyway, but you'll have to probably find someone outside your social circle because if my theory is true all the girls who know you in your social circle may think you are the asexual guy.

[fortyninethousand322]

Would love to see you succeed in dating, and feel you are capable of it. 49 you've been around here awhile, there are hundreds of threads on this stuff here. Are you really wanting to rehash them? If you were a newb here, would type out my standard repetitive spiel. Will spare the thread that for now.

 

Eh, I understand what you're saying. But I'd like some helpful tips because honestly if any of this stuff is covered on this forum it's amidst a bunch of threads about FWBs that won't commit, players, cheats, how women/men/whatever are bad, etc.

 

I also understand this isn't exactly the best place for learning about this stuff. But I'd rather not go to PUA sites and dating coaches usually don't work pro bono.

 

It sure beats reading about other topics ad nauseum.

[fortyninethousand322]

For example, let's say I'm in the grocery store and I see a girl I might like. Do I go and talk to her? What would I say? Or is the "meet cute" at the grocery store just a movie myth?

[dasein]

I wouldn't start with cold approaches during the day. Would start with a social network and getting out in groups of people who may have single friends. If that's not an option, start going out at night with a wingman or even solo. Find one or two night places where women you want to meet go, and they are not likely going to be the types of sports bar places you would normally go yourself, but more trendy, upscale places. Dress well. Sit at the bar and talk to everyone around, male female old young. Order one drink and nurse it. People will come and go, people will come in and talk to the people around you. Get comfortable talking to those people, and some will be women. Keep going to those places and in time you should meet enough single women to start asking for phone numbers. Your end goal is to be a regular in the places that attract heavy female ratio, then those places will be your night places. Once you have a few of those places and a night routine, you can move onto other methods.

[ThaWholigan]

-where does one meet women? And, once in such a place where women are present what exactly does one do?

 

I go to places that I don't normally go to. Seminars, libraries, short classes/courses that guys don't take usually. I network at parties & clubs. When breaking ice, there really is no best way, you can ask her about something related to the scenario you're in i.e. mention something that is happening in the room, ask her about the subject, tips on a similar book etc whatever. If meeting at a shop/store, it's slightly different, you might want to ask her about the food/item she's buying or you can go straight and say something complimentary (not too supplicating but something that is genuine).

 

Regarding how one continues conversation, that's where flirting comes in. Being effective at it depends on your conversational style and what she responds to. I see you as having a particularly dry kind of humor so I would think that your flirting/banter should reflect that (a little subtle too).

 

-what is the normal level of escalation? A kiss on the first date? Can you hold hands (if so how)? What level of physical proximity is usually appropriate if both parties are receptive?

 

Well, I'm not one to really talk about this because I've had one proper date (next one is tomorrow afternoon to watch Arsenal match ), but the other two ended in sex so that is not normal level of escalation. It really depends on the context leading up to the 1st date. A little hug or a handshake might be a little awkward but I prefer to go straight for the former and sneak a little peck on the cheek in there to establish a physical connection from the beginning. So far this has worked. A little light touching while talking or telling a story or joke etc. It really depends on her proximity to you, but try to establish as close a proximity as she will allow without encroaching. She will communicate that to you involuntarily, so it's up to you to read that. A kiss on the first date will vary depending on the girl. Excluding the 1st two, the one proper date didn't end with a kiss, but the way it started (hug and kiss on cheek), but we were more physical during hug.

 

It really will vary, and it depends on how much she likes you, what kind of girl she is and how relaxed you are.

 

-how does one become "exclusive"? Does an awkward conversation ensue or is it automatic after a certain time period?

 

Can't help you here, but again, it helps to relax during these awkward conversations.

-what are good ideas for first dates?

 

Dinner or cinema are overdone to an extent. One can start off with a coffee date, but some girls won't be into that. A good neutral way to hit it off is to take them to an activity. I took one girl to the snooker club and played her at pool. There are more than one activity that you can do with her that she may enjoy. It just takes a bit of creativity. Even take her to a sporting event, or you can combine dinner/drinks with an entertainment setting i.e. live gig/comedy etc.

 

The important thing regarding the venue of date is that it has to counteract with the way you two are connecting. The energy has to be right for it to happen, both having fun and conversation/flirting/banter is easy and flows between you two.

 

-if one must use online dating, what is the appropriate process? Ask them out after 2 messages? 3? How exactly is OLD supposed to work?

 

OLD is a different world. Your profile has to be on point, as do your messages. You have to be in a continual communication when messaging, for at least a couple of days until you think she may be receptive to meeting you, then you get another contact detail (phone #, email, instant message etc). Try to phone her rather than texting, which can be a bit of a dead-end sometimes.

 

Have a first message that is intriguing enough that she just has to answer back. Something related to her profile, but that leads into something that isn't on there, so she's not just repeating something she's already written.

 

 

To add on top, there are obviously the prerequisites of the dating i.e. Your body (attractiveness), posture/body language, grooming and all that. Also, try to gauge how you sound when you talk. When relaxed, your voice flows better, expresses itself broadly, and you don't sound anxious which is key. Also, have a slightly broad range of interests, but having special interests may benefit you if you are able to convey your passion for them in a way that endears you if she already likes you.

 

I hope this helped, I interrupted a very good conversation () to see if I could help man . I truly genuinely hope that you (and anyone else reading) can get something out of this. I believe in you.

[ThaWholigan]

I wouldn't start with cold approaches during the day. Would start with a social network and getting out in groups of people who may have single friends. If that's not an option, start going out at night with a wingman or even solo. Find one or two night places where women you want to meet go, and they are not likely going to be the types of sports bar places you would normally go yourself, but more trendy, upscale places. Dress well. Sit at the bar and talk to everyone around, male female old young. Order one drink and nurse it. People will come and go, people will come in and talk to the people around you. Get comfortable talking to those people, and some will be women. Keep going to those places and in time you should meet enough single women to start asking for phone numbers. Your end goal is to be a regular in the places that attract heavy female ratio, then those places will be your night places. Once you have a few of those places and a night routine, you can move onto other methods.

Agree with all of this aswell. There are things that can help you develop a well-rounded social circle aswell, you can find those materials at a Barnes & Nobles or you can go out and try it for yourself . It helps to be genuinely interested in people, they tend to gravitate to you more if you can make them feel good about themselves.

[Eternal Sunshine]

Cold approaches are advanced stuff. I would leave them for now. They can be creepy and rarely work.

 

I met guys through friends, in bars and clubs and through OLD.

 

The problem is, if you are socially awkward, girls just won't be attracted. I would start by exposing yourself to more social situations. Accept every invite to go out with friends. Hell, invite yourself. Even if you would rather stay home, push yourself.

 

If you do the things that make you uncomfortable, they will become natural to you later on. Push yourself out of your comfort zone.

[fortyninethousand322]

What is meant by "social awkwardness". Is that the same thing as being shy?

[somedude81]

That's a good way to get immediately rejected

It's still much better than getting rejected months down the line. In my experiences, taking longer to ask a girl out will not increase your odds of success, and may actually lower them instead. Once you approach a certain level of familiarity with her that's when to strike. Maybe even sooner?

What is meant by "social awkwardness". Is that the same thing as being shy?

Definitely not.

 

Women see a guy as being social awkward when he isn't really smooth.

[Meeks7]

What is meant by "social awkwardness". Is that the same thing as being shy?

 

Definitely not. One can be shy, but still charming. Believe me, I've seen beautiful women fall for shy guys all the time. However, being socially awkward in any given situation is rarely if ever charming, lol. It's a major turn off for girls... especially if you're socially awkward in MOST social situations. Remember, girls like to feel like they've got a good man. If their man is constantly "looking weak" in various situations, then that's not a "good man" and she won't be content.

 

 

It's still much better than getting rejected months down the line. In my experiences, taking longer to ask a girl out will not increase your odds of success, and may actually lower them instead. Once you approach a certain level of familiarity with her that's when to strike. Maybe even sooner?

 

Women see a guy as being social awkward when he isn't really smooth.

 

You seem to have a level head on you in other people's threads. Your advice is actually quite sound here, and in many other threads I've read that other posters have started.

 

Why can't you take your own advice?

[fortyninethousand322]

It's still much better than getting rejected months down the line. In my experiences, taking longer to ask a girl out will not increase your odds of success, and may actually lower them instead. Once you approach a certain level of familiarity with her that's when to strike. Maybe even sooner?

 

Right. I agree with this. I've never really had this problem. I'm usually a guy to "piss or get off the pot", so to speak. I don't linger around.

 

The lone exception to this was the last girl I "dated", who would always hint at us being an exclusive couple, but whenever I tried anything (not even sexual mind you) she'd keep me at the figurative arm's length. That kind of push-pull drove me nuts.

[fortyninethousand322]

Definitely not. One can be shy, but still charming. Believe me, I've seen beautiful women fall for shy guys all the time. However, being socially awkward in any given situation is rarely if ever charming, lol. It's a major turn off for girls... especially if you're socially awkward in MOST social situations. Remember, girls like to feel like they've got a good man. If their man is constantly "looking weak" in various situations, then that's not a "good man" and she won't be content.

 

Ok, so what is an example of being "socially awkward" as opposed to "being shy"? What is "looking weak"? I'm not trying to be snarky or anything, I just would like a bit of clarification.

[Meeks7]

Ok, so what is an example of being "socially awkward" as opposed to "being shy"? What is "looking weak"? I'm not trying to be snarky or anything, I just would like a bit of clarification.

 

Being weak is basically looking like a chump. You know, like a guy who shows up to a formal wear party in jeans and a tee. That is going to play out badly.

 

It comes in a variety of packages, and is too elaborate to fully explain. It's not about if you can only lift 50 pounds. Looking weak can come in the form of picking up the tab at a get-together OR NOT (everytime), organizing a Christmas party, or even playing host. If you can't competently "take care of things," then you may come across as looking like a weak man. And no woman dreams of being with a weak, incompetent man.

 

In fact, that's perfect -- think of looking weak the same as "looking incompetent." Just not knowing WHAT to do, or HOW to do something. Could be anything.

 

Basically, more life experience you have, more educated and skilled you are, more healthy friends you have, the better off you will be. Nothing is worst than a socially awkward, incompetent guy who has no friends.

[normal person]

I'm certainly no expert but I might be able to shed some light on this.

 

 

-where does one meet women? And, once in such a place where women are present what exactly does one do?

 

This shouldn't be as hard as you're making it out to be. You can meet girls at school, at work, at a bar, any place where people of similar ages come into contact with each other. Bars are probably your best bet as most people go there with the specific intention of interacting with others, unlike work or a grocery store.

 

If you're interested in attracting a girl, you've got to ask yourself why she'd be attracted to you, or at the very least, why she might notice you. Being good-looking might get you a foot in the door, but if you have nothing interesting to say you run the risk of boring her pretty quickly. So be interesting, charming, and gregarious if you can. The best advice I can give is to just build on your genuine interest in her. People love to talk about themselves, so let them. Ask a girl basic things ("where are you from?") and then find some aspect of the answer that interests you and ask another regarding it ("how do you like living here compared to there?"). Don't seem hesitant or like you're willing yourself to do it just to talk to a girl--actually be interested in the person like you would anyone else and it should all fall into place. If she's not responding a lot and/or not reciprocating your questions, she simply might not be interested, so just say something like "cool, well it was nice to meet you" and cut your losses.

 

 

-what is the normal level of escalation? A kiss on the first date? Can you hold hands (if so how)? What level of physical proximity is usually appropriate if both parties are receptive?

 

There is no definitive timetable. If you can sense a real mutual attraction and you can tell she wants to, maybe kiss her the first time you hang out. It might be moderate risk/moderate reward. If not, there's certainly nothing wrong with waiting a little while. But if you start hanging out a lot and you wait too long before kissing she might start wondering why you haven't done it yet. She might think you're not confident, weak, scared, you don't like her, etc. That's bad news for you.

 

As for holding hands--I'd argue that most of the time this is more intimate than kissing. Kissing some girl you just met at a bar can be a one-off thing, but holding hands is probably more intimate than you think, it's not really a primal, sexual, sort of thing. Few people go to the bar, get drunk, and just hold hands. If you have to ask yourself if it's too soon to do it, it is. Otherwise it'd just be very weird. When you're at that point, you'll know. Although I can imagine a few instances where drunken hand holding might be a precursor to kissing, like if you're at a bar and you've already established a connection with a girl and you're all leaving and walking to another bar. So I can think of two kinds of holding hands:

 

1). The we-both-really-care-about-each-other-and-are-sober kind (I'm assuming this is the kind you're talking about)

2). The we're-both-drunk-walking-to-another-bar-and-will-probably-make-out-very-soon kind

 

Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong.

 

-how does one become "exclusive"? Does an awkward conversation ensue or is it automatic after a certain time period?

You have to talk about it, but don't assume it will be an awkward conversation, and certainly don't make it one. Everyone will have different circumstances and you just have to be honest and upfront. Act like an adult.

 

-what are good ideas for first dates?

 

That depends, what does she like to do? Figure it out and do something at least tangentially related to it where you'll have the opportunity to talk a lot. Restaurants should always work. And if you asked her out, please don't then say "So... what do you want to do for our first date?" If you asked her, it's your responsibility to figure it out and do the leg work. If you ask her out and then defer to her to plan because you don't know what to do, you've already lost. Be decisive. Make a firm suggestion (start with something like "I'm going to take you to..." and not "what would you think if we went to...?") and if she hates the idea she might just say so and you can suggest something else. I'd imagine being decisive and having a sub-par plan is better than being indecisive and having no plan.

 

-if one must use online dating, what is the appropriate process? Ask them out after 2 messages? 3? How exactly is OLD supposed to work?

 

I'm not really sure how all that works but 3 messages or so seems appropriate if she's answering in relative depth and asking you questions too. It probably means she's not necessarily opposed to the idea of going out with you.

 

Good luck.

Edited December 1, 2012 by normal person