it's all your fault!

[j'adore]

just reading some of the responses on here really goes to show just how twisted affairs really are...

 

the feelings around them seem to chnage depending on who you talk to and what's going on...

 

the wayward husband, who may have had a truck load of "explanations" while the affair was going on that made his behavior seem okay to the other woman ( honestly, who would want to have much to do with someone who said " there's no real reason for me treating my spouse like a jerk , so he has to "explain' to his other woman and also to himself), but when the affair ends, his "explanation" that he gives to his spouse may suddenly becone very differnet than that which he gave his other woman...

 

I sometimes wonder what the differences in the story would be if the other woman and wife were to compare notes after the affair...what "explanations' would have been made, and who would the wayward spous have "blamed" for the affair?

 

So it was a rhetorical question, seems you think you already know the answer.

[KathyM]

People blame shift in order to absolve themselves of guilt. If they blame the BS for the unhappy state of the marriage, they feel vindicated in having the affair. If the OW blames the MM for pursuing her, she feels less guilty over damaging the marriage. If the MM blames the OW for coming onto him and seducing him, he feels absolved from having any intent to cheat, and was only a victim of his natural manly impulses. People blame shift in order to absolve their own guilt so they can live with themselves without feeling the reality about themselves. When they can blame their behavior on someone else, they can feel better about themselves and don't have to admit something so negative about themselves.

[Summer Breeze]

People blame shift in order to absolve themselves of guilt. If they blame the BS for the unhappy state of the marriage, they feel vindicated in having the affair. If the OW blames the MM for pursuing her, she feels less guilty over damaging the marriage. If the MM blames the OW for coming onto him and seducing him, he feels absolved from having any intent to cheat, and was only a victim of his natural manly impulses. People blame shift in order to absolve their own guilt so they can live with themselves without feeling the reality about themselves. When they can blame their behavior on someone else, they can feel better about themselves and don't have to admit something so negative about themselves.

 

And sometimes a person can't believe someone who was meant to protect them above all others and always have their best interest at heart would cheat on them. It's much easier to blame an AP because there isn't the desire to not want to face what the WS did to you. Blame shifting is often about fear.

[carhill]

I can see if a married person lies to the other man/woman and says they are not married that they aren't really, in effect, responsible for their actions, as they made their decisions based on a complete lie

 

My first and defining experience as an OM was like that. However, after the deception period ran, when there was disclosure, any actions or feelings subsequent were entirely my responsibility and choice. That experience would color my interactions with women for many years and still does, to some extent. I'm very suspicious of relationship status disclosures.

 

I'm wondering what the reason is for this? Is it shifting the blame out of guilt over what happened, is it naivety, or is it that some people are just more easily influenced than others? Maybe a combination of the three?

 

For some, guilt; for others, fear. Fear of looking straight into the mirror. MC helped me separate out responsibility from fault and spend more time poking the finger into the mirror and working on that person. Other people have their own paths.

 

TBH, since my divorce, looking around at what goes on locally, I'm happy to be single and alone. The mirror is smiling back now for the first time in a very long time. I'm good with that.

[Decorative]

And sometimes a person can't believe someone who was meant to protect them above all others and always have their best interest at heart would cheat on them. It's much easier to blame an AP because there isn't the desire to not want to face what the WS did to you. Blame shifting is often about fear.

 

I blame my spouse the most. He chose to harm me. He did. No one made him, forced him, or trickes him. He has never for a second said anything other than that. But I also blame OW- once she learned of me. And made her choices.

 

That's not a blameshift- and in most betrayed spouses i have come across, they see it that way.

[frozensprouts]

but this thread isn't just about how any one particular person (wayward spouse, other man/woman, betrayed spouse) blames everyone else...really when it comes right down to it, often they all do...

 

this has kind of been in my mind for a while, but I read a post on here not too log ago this gist of which was how a married guy should feel responsible for his other woman having "baggage" if she ends her marriage because of the affair...

 

seems to me that it pretty unfair...the other woman has 'baggage" ( don't like that term at all, but anyway) because of decisions she made about her life...

 

this isn't to say that she deserves to have been hurt, or that it's okay that she feels bad...rather, if someone is gong to make adult decisions about their life, then they have to accept the fallout and not try and shift the blame...( funny thing is that it wasn't her blaming him, it was someone else...blamed the married man for 'ruining her life'), Most people don't do that, but some do...

it's like when a betrayed spouse is blamed for "making" a wayward spouse cheat...that seems pretty silly. They cheat because, for whatever reason, they wanted to, and didn't really have that much of a problem doing it.

[waterwoman]

I have got tired of finding someone to blame. Pointless. It happened. All that is left is to deal with it. I get mad at times because I don't see that I deserved all this pain and confusion. But so what...my dad didn't deserve heart disease, late-FIL didn't deserve cancer.

 

These are the cards I've been dealt. H has some pretty crappy ones as well and I don't imagine OW is exactly whooping over her hand right now.

 

I just want to be happy and secure again with my life. That is what matters. I want H to be happy and secure. I don't want to see or think about OW again. Enough with the anger and the blame. Too damned tired.

[woinlove]

Why are you screaming? Are you still this upset years after the EMR? Have you seen a counselor?

 

To me, your post comes across as a personal putdown, but I didn't see Spark's post as directed at you. The post was illustrating some examples of what the OP is about. It was clear the statements were absurd. The type that would often be followed by WTF??!!

 

On the topic of the OP, and not directed to any poster, I think more happiness comes in accepting responsibilities for one's actions and choices. And by that, I don't mean, I am this way because I have a problem (like bad childhood, split-self or whatever), although certainly identifying any problems affecting oneself is useful. I mean accepting, yes, I behave this way and I am happy with it (where if it is behavior that hurts others, then one should expect others to criticize your behavior and find it selfish, uncaring, mean-spirited, hateful, or whatever) OR accepting, yes, I have behaved this way and I can see it hurts others and/or brings dishonesty into my life, and I am working to change that so that I can life a more honest, authentic life which also respects others.

 

In the former case, the individual usually doesn't care what others think, so I think when one is saying they are fine with their behavior and yet wants positive reinforcement on it, or prickles at the idea that it is bad behavior, they actually are not completely comfortable with their behavior and there might be some opening for change. I think one can see this sometimes in WS/AP, and they may later come to see things more along the second line (working to change or having changed).

[woinlove]

And sometimes a person can't believe someone who was meant to protect them above all others and always have their best interest at heart would cheat on them. It's much easier to blame an AP because there isn't the desire to not want to face what the WS did to you. Blame shifting is often about fear.

 

I don't think this is what the thread is about, since the OP is about those knowingly in affairs, so they knowingly involve themselves in the deceit of the BS. Perhaps there are things the BS has done that he or she should accept responsibility for, but the status of being a BS in itself is not something that one needs to accept blame for. As to blame between the WS and AP, they can both be held responsible, each for their own behavior. The blame is not the same, it is not equal, but each can be held responsible for their role in a deceptive affair. So, I don't see how your example, or others who want to focus on blame of the BS, addresses the OP.

[KathyM]

And sometimes a person can't believe someone who was meant to protect them above all others and always have their best interest at heart would cheat on them. It's much easier to blame an AP because there isn't the desire to not want to face what the WS did to you. Blame shifting is often about fear.

True, for those who consider the OM/OW totally at fault for seducing their spouse, and they envision their spouse as a victim of an evil person. There ARE those who will only blame the AP, rather than their own WS. Both participants are to blame for the affair (WS and AP), because both have crossed boundaries and damaged a marriage, and without either participant, there would be no infidelity. The BS and the WS can both take the blame for the unhealthy state of their marriage, although in some marriages where the WS is just an entitled narcissist with no boundaries or respect for his marriage or his spouse, sometimes there is only one spouse to blame for the unhealthy state of the marriage.

[Furious]

I've had the opportunity throughout my entire marriage to be either a WS or an OW. It's not rocket science. All one needs to do is not take responsibility for either fixing the problems in the marriage or amicably divorcing.

 

Cheaters will do neither, they don't seriously attempt to fix the problem or separate, and instead invite a willing third party into their life, as if that is the only option.

 

That third party must be very insecure to accept such a situation. The man they love is a coward who cannot make a decision, a proven liar, but the lying coward is not to blame, he is a martyr, he deserves a wife and a girlfriend, he deserves to be papa to his children, he is deserves to live in the family home and on holidays slice that turkey and pose with his loving family for pictures, and the OW will celebrate that holiday alone, she won't mind.

 

No, the WS is not at fault, he is the victim of him unmet needs, and there are other women who are more than happy to support and love such a man and more than willing to be invited into such a situation.

 

On D-day that happy little bubble bursts, darn the betrayed spouse for ruining such a perfect arrangement. She is to blame once again.

[MissBee]

That's a twisted way to look at the split-self MM. The split self model provides an explanation which the MM can use to empower himself, understand himself and thereby bring about changes. Therapists use it to provide counseling for this end. For OW it may help them to understand their MM and thereby be able to determine whether they see any progress or not with the MM dealing with his issues and thus can decide whether they want to remain in the relationship or not.

 

Actually the EMR provides an opportunity for the MM to deal with his problems. They surface.

 

I haven't personally met any split-self MM...but the ones I hear about on LS don't seem to be dealing with anything but seem to be in the same position as ever. In an A, married, never leaving and why? Because of xyz thing that they have still not overcome.

 

I haven't heard anyone bring up split self and then show how this MM has grown and overcome it and is making better, empowering choices. Most often it is employed by the OW to explain why he can never leave.

 

But I haven't seen any cases where it has been brought up where an OW or BS is talking about how through his split-self nature and EMR he then grew and stopped the A and worked on his M or left his M and moved on....it almost always seems to be a case of "He can't/isn't leaving and I accept it because he is split-self". This particular stance is what seems codependent. If a man/woman is split-self or whatever his issue...what does that have to do with your choice to ride that rollercoaster with them? I don't see the two as elated. My ex had an attachment disorder...I had to bow out of that eventually, after being caught up in explaining him and his issues to everyone. He did have a problem...but that didn't mean that I had to be treated unfairly because of it.

Edited November 30, 2012 by MissBee

[MissBee]

Yes! Someone who searches books, the internet, etc. trying to find some "ism" that their partner might be supposedly afflicted with so they can justify to themselves why they continue to accept the unacceptable is, IMO, such a person. In these instances they are focusing solely on the broken partner. They need a reason to feel their "poor helpless" partner does these things beyond their control in order to make more palatable the fact that they are accepting less than should be expected in a R. Very sad indeed.

 

I am proud to say I've recovered from that!

 

I got a PhD in his issues...and sometimes BSs and OW do this as well.

 

Yet, the point is, and I agree with trinity on it, is that everyone needs to focus on their own life and not take on the burden of loving some broken person into treating them well or explaining away their behavior by saying but he is split-self or whatever other thing.

[MissBee]

A question re: people who get involved in affairs...

 

I think I'm just trying to understand that mindset a bit more...for people like her, why is everything always someone else's fault?

 

 

In looking up different types of denial or shunning responsibility. I thought this was an interesting breakdown of the types of denial and why people do it, as many times in As, or other scenarios, people will draw for either or all of them.

 

Denial of responsibility

 

This form of denial involves avoiding personal responsibility by:

 

• blaming: a direct statement shifting culpability and may overlap with denial of fact
  
• minimizing: an attempt to make the effects or results of an action appear to be less harmful than they may actually be, or
  
• justifying: when someone takes a choice and attempts to make that choice look okay due to their perception of what is "right" in a situation.
  

Someone using denial of responsibility is usually attempting to avoid potential harm or pain by shifting attention away from themselves.

 

 

Denial of impact

 

Denial of impact involves a person's avoiding thinking about or understanding the harms of his or her behavior has caused to self or others, i.e. denial of the consequences. Doing this enables that person to avoid feeling a sense of guilt and it can prevent him or her from developing remorse or empathy for others. Denial of impact reduces or eliminates a sense of pain or harm from poor decisions.

Denial of awareness

 

This type of denial is best discussed by looking at the concept of state dependent learning.[5] People using this type of denial will avoid pain and harm by stating they were in a different state of awareness (such as alcohol or drug intoxication or on occasion mental health related). This type of denial often overlaps with denial of responsibility.

Denial of cycle

 

Many who use this type of denial will say things such as, "it just happened". Denial of cycle is where a person avoids looking at their decisions leading up to an event or does not consider their pattern of decision making and how harmful behavior is repeated. The pain and harm being avoided by this type of denial is more of the effort needed to change the focus from a singular event to looking at preceding events. It can also serve as a way to blame or justify behavior (see above).

Denial of denial

 

This can be a difficult concept for many people to identify with in themselves, but is a major barrier to changing hurtful behaviors. Denial of denial involves thoughts, actions and behaviors which bolster confidence that nothing needs to be changed in one's personal behavior. This form of denial typically overlaps with all of the other forms of denial, but involves more self-delusion. Denial at this level can have significant consequences both personally and at a societal level.[6]

 

 

The denial of denial bit is a bit funny but also the most dangerous...and speaks to my earlier point that my dad for example, or some OW, deny anything wrong with As at all and seem to have ZERO concept of how this behavior is problematic. Whereas, at least other forms of denial seem to be temporary or shallow or some don't deny, this type is on another level.

[Spark1111]

It was a sincere question raised out of concern for Spark. It is something I have been noticing a long time with her posts. I am worried for her, so I wondered whether she had seen a counselor or not as it is always a good move for everybody.

 

Oh, thanks for the concern.

 

We did IC and MC for quite a long time.

 

Today he suffers more than I do regarding his past actions. I have come full circle to my intital reaction: His affair had nothing to do with me.

 

His affair partner was in many ways, as broken and damaged as he was at the time.

 

They needed to villify me and her xH as some sort of weird bonding justification of their actions.

 

He blames no one but himself, for what he did.

 

She still blames me, and to a lesser degree, him, and forever, her mean xH, who by all intents and puposes, has happily remarried and moved on.

 

But then she is the perpetual victim.

 

I am here to empower people who are not only in the pain I was once in, but also women, who should demand and expect more from their men, whether married or single.

[Spark1111]

In looking up different types of denial or shunning responsibility. I thought this was an interesting breakdown of the types of denial and why people do it, as many times in As, or other scenarios, people will draw for either or all of them.

 

 

 

 

The denial of denial bit is a bit funny but also the most dangerous...and speaks to my earlier point that my dad for example, or some OW, deny anything wrong with As at all and seem to have ZERO concept of how this behavior is problematic. Whereas, at least other forms of denial seem to be temporary or shallow or some don't deny, this type is on another level.

 

Great find Miss Bee!

 

My H actually exhbited all these post-DDay, and then we explored these in MC and he in IC.

 

His describes his thinking as very warped at that time. I concur!

[frozensprouts]

seems like some people are almost afraid to make decision for themselves. They want to have someone else make the decision for them, then they feel they can absolve themselves of the responsibility...

 

my husband was a bit like that. his parents were very overbearing and abusive, so as an adult, he was left with very little confidence in his ability to make decisions and just as little experience in accepting responsibility...

 

he got a lot of counseling and psychological help, and it's made a big difference...he's better at decision making, and i'm better and letting some things go, as i know now he'll be able to accept responsibility

for his choices...

 

I think he'd always known he'd had problem in this are and wanted to chnage, but didn't know how ( and was also a it afraid to)... he learned that wishing you were different and saying so doesn't really chnage anything..you have to actually do something about it...

[woinlove]

One word has a negative charge, the other a positive.

 

Yes, one could be talking about being responsible for saving millions of lives and that would be a positive. But here we are talking about deceptive affairs. For those who think deceptive affairs are a positive, they obviously will want to take credit for doing good. If they think they are neutral, they probably don't care either way. Most think the deception is wrong and negative and that is the issue being discussed. So there is a reason the words fault and blame are used, as well as responsible, but we are not talking about being responsible for some wonderful act.

[Spark1111]

One word has a negative charge, the other a positive.

 

True...and that is completely self-perception, which word one chooses to describe their own feelings.

maybe I'm an anomaly.

 

I understood developing feelings for another. It can and DOES happen. But I have always loved him enough to let him go, and told him so often.

 

He didn't have to lie to me; not for money, status, children....NEVER, yet he and she discussed all the worst ramifications of me finding out and colluded for almost two years to keep it secret.

 

I'm not sure why or how he convinced himself that was necessary to do. He still blames himself and he still feels guilty for that.

 

I do not think he will ever think that was a good, positive or just thing to do to me. It can't be reconciled by him. He blamed me, he lied to me....and he really could have left anytime he wanted to.

 

So for some, it is ownership and accountability. For others, if their actions during the affair were totally against who they are, it's guilt, shame and remorse.

 

I can't unring that bell, but it sdoesn't bother me anymore. He may never forgive himself.

[MissBee]

I'm glad you got help through IC and MC, Spark.

 

 

 

Am I the only one reacting to the use of the word "blame" in this thread? I see blaming yourself as something negative, something that results in negative emotions like guilt, and guilt prevents you from taking positive sincere action. "Taking responsibility for" is a positive step IMO. I'd much rather talk about responsibility than blame.

 

Guilt does not necessarily prevent you from taking positive action...in fact, most times guilt prompts you to take positive action because you feel badly about a situation.

 

There is healthy guilt and unhealthy guilt. Certainly, feeling guilt for causing hurt and pain or deceiving/betraying someone is a healthy kind of it. Versus, say feeling guilty for having one's own opinions.

 

 

 

Guilt is an emotional warning sign that most people learn through their normal childhood social development. Its purpose is to let us know when we’ve done something wrong, to help us develop a better sense of our behavior and how it affects ourselves and others. It prompts us to re-examine our behavior so that we don’t end up making the same mistake twice.

 

Guilt works best to help us grow and mature when our behavior has been offensive or hurtful to others or ourselves. If we feel guilty for saying something offensive to another person, or for focusing on our careers with an 80-hour work-week over our family, that’s a warning sign with a purpose: change your behavior or else lose your friends or family. We can still choose to ignore our guilt then, but then we do so at our own risk. This is known as “healthy” or “appropriate” guilt because it serves a purpose in trying to help redirect our moral or behavioral compass.

 

I think definitely in the case of a MM who feels guilty for his A, like Spark's husband, that is a healthy guilt that will probably keep him from making the same mistakes and losing his family. Versus if he felt no such guilt and learned no lessons (like the case of serial cheaters whose guilt compasses seem broken). Avoiding feeling guilty might be a problem in fact...a means of trying to make one's self feel good about bad behavior by saying you don't need to feel badly about it. Which probably goes back to the "denial of impact".

Edited November 30, 2012 by MissBee

[KathyM]

What would this world be like if everybody just did what they wanted and never felt any guilt about hurting others? If people never had boundaries or never felt regret for violating boundaries? Guilt over hurting others is a good thing, because it means we care about others and not just ourselves. A person who has no guilt over hurting others is not mentally healthy, and it is usually associated with a personality disorder, such as narcissistic personality disorder or antisocial personality disorder.

[TheCollector]

UGH?? I didn't lie, I got divorced!!!

 

And if i had not fallen out of love, I would not have fallen in love, it is not an excuse it is a fact.

 

I'm not attacking here but may I ask did you fall in love while still married? Were you intimate with this person while still married? And if you fell out of love with your spouse why didn't you leave before persuing someone else?

 

Am I understanding your situation correctly?

[KathyM]

I think experiencing guilt when you've harmed someone shows you have a conscience. I think guilt helps us to make better choices in the future. If people felt no guilt or remorse, they would just keep making the same hurtful mistakes with no regrets. Like a serial cheater who feels no remorse. For some people who cheat or enable a cheater, they feel guilt and that guilt helps to control their impulses in the future so that that they won't make the same mistakes again. For those that don't feel guilt, they are inclined to continue the same destructive behavior in the future. Shifting blame onto others for infidelity is done to protect one's own ego or self concept and to absolve oneself of guilt, and it prevents the person from examining his own motives and choices. It prevents him from taking responsibility for his own actions and the damage that it does.

[frozensprouts]

guilt isn't a bad thing..it let's you know when you're doing something you probably shouldn't...if you know your feelings and are honest with yourself, then guilt is not a bad thing at all...it's pretty easy to alleviate...just stop whatever it is that makes you feel guilty.

 

i have to say that I really find it interesting how some people can feel justified in doing just about anything , as long as you stick the word "love" in front of it, they're good to go, no matter what dishonesty is involved...I often wonder if they would feel the same way about other behavior that's hurtful to other people...are they also okay with that as well? Can they walk by an injured person and feel okay about not helping "since I'm not the one that hurt them"...would they be okay if the same treatment was given to them?

what on earth could have happened to them to make them so callous towards another? most everyone's been through a rough patch in their lives, many through some pretty horrible things that I can't begin to understand...yet those people don't take that out on others or become devoid of compassion, kindness and empathy. Funny thing is that I can actually understand that a little bt more that I can someone who is every selective about who they have empathy for..how can they just ignore it or selectively shut it off like that?

[Summer Breeze]

I blame my spouse the most. He chose to harm me. He did. No one made him, forced him, or trickes him. He has never for a second said anything other than that. But I also blame OW- once she learned of me. And made her choices.

 

That's not a blameshift- and in most betrayed spouses i have come across, they see it that way.

 

That's fine Decorative. I wasn't saying people didn't have the right to feel as they do. I was pointing out that blameshifting is done as a result of fear as often as it is of guilt.