Even playing field?

November 21, 2012

I love JAP's posts!

I have known many men in my life that behave exactly like she described! Most of these men act like this because of how they were raised by their FOO.(male chauvinists )

Many older men were raised to expect women to wait on them.(even if the wife has a full time job and children) And they pout like little kids when they don't get their way.

Other younger men were raised in the me generation where they expect instant gratification and are quite selfish.

Just because you personally have not experienced men like this in your life, does not mean her point is not valid. That is the beauty of LS, the many different views on a wide variety of subjects!

November 21, 2012

interestingly enough, the posts from other women who seem to put down all betrayed wives as being overweight, not interested in sex, lazy, don't take care of their husband's, are mean and controlling, etc., are in their own way quite misogynistic. There almost seems to be a hatred of other women hidden in them behind a pretty thin veil

not sure if this is because of jealousy, sadness at their own situation, misplaced anger or whatever...

honestly, most people are not terrible, they are jst trying to live their lives

November 21, 2012

I don't know who had posted something about evening the playing field?

Basically saying if the OW would announce hello I'm so and so and I fancy your husband and I plan to make him mine?

It is interesting that many OW do not acknowledge the importance of keeping the BS in the dark and wish to discuss other matters. I think knowing the truth about the most important R in your life, one that may impact on your children, is a big deal.

Occasionally an OW will want to tell the BW the truth when the A is over, often it seems out of pain, sometimes for revenge, sometimes in an attempt to end the A for sure, sometimes to try to set things right if they see the deception as wrong. More rarely they will want to tell the BW the truth while the A is going on, but not usually until the MM has made a lot of statements that suggest there is a possibility he might divorce.

Keeping that secret from the BW, does afford some kind advantage and one can't really have a level playing field no matter whose legs are shaved and whose nails are painted. If the MM lies to the OW about being married, probably there is more of a level playing field in that case. But those cases are quite different and I think the BW and deceived OW often have more empathy for each other in those cases. More typically, the OW knows MM is married, knows he is not telling his W about the A, and that fact alone creates an uneven playing field as stated by the OP.

November 21, 2012

I love JAP's posts!

I have known many men in my life that behave exactly like she described! Most of these men act like this because of how they were raised by their FOO.(male chauvinists )

Many older men were raised to expect women to wait on them.(even if the wife has a full time job and children) And they pout like little kids when they don't get their way.

Other younger men were raised in the me generation where they expect instant gratification and are quite selfish.

Just because you personally have not experienced men like this in your life, does not mean her point is not valid. That is the beauty of LS, the many different views on a wide variety of subjects!

Another life frustrated woman who hates all men... My advice don't get married please (your husbands will never be good enough for you...)... I have been always against dr. Harvey books where somehow the cheated party get blamed for the betrayal... but when I read posts like this one and the one for JAP... Gosh I would also cheat on you if I see how much hate and disrespect you have for men ....I don't even want to think the way your treated your husbands...

Stop generalizing, all men are not evil... No is not always like this, some of us like to help at home, and take care of or wives/gf's. You've got one bad one, even two or ten, I don't care... maybe you have a poor choice capacity for men.. but please don't generalize!

November 21, 2012

meandmyself,

I know you don't know me personally but I am nothing like you described.

I am recently retired from a successful career with grown kids and grandkids.

I am in a very long term happy marriage with my only H.

I am pretty, popular, very funny and have lots of friends and family.

I adore and love men, always have!

November 21, 2012

meandmyself,

I know you don't know me personally but I am nothing like you described.

I am recently retired from a successful career with grown kids and grandkids.

I am in a very long term happy marriage with my only H.

I am pretty, popular, very funny and have lots of friends and family.

I adore and love men, always have!

Then why the post about men being wrongly educated, selfish, etc??? I am sorry but you are getting me confused.

I would not like to be unfair to you so I immediately retire everything I have said if you didn't mean what you said in your post of support to JAP... but I am very sensible against generalization and I can't stand when someone is speaking about men in a general disrespectful way probably in the same way you would not like it if I say all women are sluts... first because is untruth and second because as you say I don't know you nor may other women in the world so what give me the right to say they are something if I don't know them? Same thing when you say all men are selfish... so please DON"T

November 21, 2012

Well if it was important to you, and he always USED to do that because it appealed to you then by all means, you certainly SHOULD! And then he should do it.

And for the record, I think men should work out and take you places and iron his shirt and bring you something he might think you'd like just the way he did when you were dating.

I agree with you on this point, LFH, and it's something I've often said on the marriage forum. Never stop treating each other like boyfriend and girlfriend.

It's not always easy, but it takes more awareness and appreciation than it does effort. It is more of a mental challenge than a physical one.

And it seems like it is very often a huge part of reconciliation after an affair. Which does make me wonder---was if really so impossible to manage before the affair, if it is manageable after?

But gratitude is a two-way street. Neither partner will keep it up indefinitely if it isn't returned.

November 21, 2012

And it seems like it is very often a huge part of reconciliation after an affair. Which does make me wonder---was if really so impossible to manage before the affair, if it is manageable after?

Hmmm.... well that goes for the WS as well. I am more than prepared to hold my hand up to my part in the state of our marriage prior to his affair. Thankfully so is H. In fact he refuses to accept that I did anything wrong.

So much feeds into the initial failure of communication - it's becomes a negative feedback loop. And no matter how many times one or the other makes an effort to stop it, it simply doesn't work because the two people aren't really communicating in the same language. D-Day creates such a huge disruption that NEITHER spouse can fail to see the issues that need to be addressed, and if they truly want to reconcile they both work damned hard to address those issues.

Do you deny that genuine reconconciliation can happen?

November 21, 2012

interestingly enough, the posts from other women who seem to put down all betrayed wives as being overweight, not interested in sex, lazy, don't take care of their husband's, are mean and controlling, etc., are in their own way quite misogynistic. There almost seems to be a hatred of other women hidden in them behind a pretty thin veil

not sure if this is because of jealousy, sadness at their own situation, misplaced anger or whatever...

honestly, most people are not terrible, they are jst trying to live their lives

!!!!!

I was going to say...I know too many women like this. Women who hate other women. I think lots of OW often fall into this category. Where they will go above and beyond to defend a cheating man so they can compete with another woman or put down another women.

November 21, 2012

A lot of the OW are in the same situation as the BSs regarding workload both at work and at home, the only difference being they don't have a husband who can do any chore at all. Yet they manage to satisfy the needs of their MM.

LOL

Anyway, the major difference as stated is, an OW is someone who does not live with the MM daily, therefore her relationship with him, especially in long distance As, is going to be more akin to the extra effort people take in new, dating scenarios than it will be in marriage.

It is not usually because an OW is so much more naturally attentive and skillful, she can be attentive because of the situation. But have her be his day to day wife and that's when you will see if the playing field is even!

The playing field between an OW and BS is uneven....period. Because a wife and a gf or mistress are very different things. Some situations tip in favor of the OW (excitement factor, novelty factor etc) and some in favor of the BS. Knowing who is the "best woman" would be comparing a man dating two women he is not married to, who know about each other. Two of them with kids and responsibilities, and then seeing who "satisfies his needs" (I can' even say this with a straight face ) best! But so long as one woman is a woman he is not married to, hasn't known or been with as long as the other etc. there is NO comparison.

Just like my dad as an everyday husband, who my mom has been with for 20 something years...she knows him like the back of her hand and he does not go out of his way to be charming, romantic, helpful or satisfy any needs. Yet, his myriad of OW who just met him, think he is so wonderful. He buys presents etc and puts in effort into this new situation. Why? Because it's new! He did that for my mom too initially. Once you stay his OW and a bit out of reach and a novelty on the side, it will take more effort, but sure enough if he were to marry any of them and tack on 20 years, believe...it would be the same thing! It's really like how people often bring out the fine china and their best face for strangers and acquaintances but are snappy and don't put the effort for family, as they're accustomed to them. However, once those house guests become regular live-in family members, that's when the playing field is even!

So really...an OW and BS are not on an even playing field until the OW becomes the wife or main woman, then you have a real comparison. But if you're someone he sees outside of his regular life, or sees you every now and again or even every day but for less time and less years than his wife...you're still "new" and that has not been tested and for the OW she will of course go out of her way...let's also see how she fares with this "prince" when she is his everyday wife and not his secret gf. She may find herself sympathizing with the former BS and seeing the man the BS got to see and not the prince she got to see who could put on his best behavior when he is stepping out of the comfort of his everyday life.

Edited November 21, 2012 by MissBee

November 21, 2012

!!!!!

I was going to say...I know too many women like this. Women who hate other women. I think lots of OW often fall into this category. Where they will go above and beyond to defend a cheating man so they can compete with another woman or put down another women.

Yes. Sadly I have come across a few. Not many, but a few. Who seem to only gain validation from men finding them attractive. And think that any woman whose entire focus isn't on the male of the species is somehow lacking. I simply don't understand why.

November 21, 2012

LOL

Anyway, the major difference as stated is, an OW is someone who does not live with the MM daily, therefore her relationship with him, especially in long distance As, is going to be more akin to the extra effort people take in new, dating scenarios than it will be in marriage.

It is not usually because an OW is so much more naturally attentive and skillful, she can be attentive because of the situation. But have her be his day to day wife and that's when you will see if the playing field is even!

The playing field between an OW and BS is uneven....period. Because a wife and a gf or mistress are very different things. Some situations tip in favor of the OW (excitement factor, novelty factor etc) and some in favor of the BS. Knowing who is the "best woman" would be comparing a man dating two women he is not married to, who know about each other. Two of them with kids and responsibilities, and then seeing who "satisfies his needs" (I can' even say this with a straight face ) best! But so long as one woman is a woman he is not married to, hasn't known or been with as long as the other etc. there is NO comparison.

Just like my dad as an everyday husband, who my mom has been with for 20 something years...she knows him like the back of her hand and he does not go out of his way to be charming, romantic, helpful or satisfy any needs. Yet, his myriad of OW who just met him, think he is so wonderful. He buys presents etc and puts in effort into this new situation. Why? Because it's new! He did that for my mom too initially. Once you stay his OW and a bit out of reach and a novelty on the side, it will take more effort, but sure enough if he were to marry any of them and tack on 20 years, believe...it would be the same thing! It's really like how people often bring out the fine china and their best face for strangers and acquaintances but are snappy and don't put the effort for family, as they're accustomed to them. However, once those house guests become regular live-in family members, that's when the playing field is even!

So really...an OW and BS are not on an even playing field until the OW becomes the wife or main woman, then you have a real comparison. But if you're someone he sees outside of his regular life, or sees you every now and again or even every day but for less time and less years than his wife...you're still "new" and that has not been tested and for the OW she will of course go out of her way...let's also see how she fares with this "prince" when she is his everyday wife and not his secret gf. She may find herself sympathizing with the former BS and seeing the man the BS got to see and not the prince she got to see who could put on his best behavior when he is stepping out of the comfort of his everyday life.

Whistle,whistle, stomp,stomp, clap and clap!!

Perfectly stated.

November 21, 2012

!!!!!

I was going to say...I know too many women like this. Women who hate other women. I think lots of OW often fall into this category. Where they will go above and beyond to defend a cheating man so they can compete with another woman or put down another women.

Yes. I became friends with a woman who I later found out had cheated multiple times. And when we first became friends, she would lament on and on about how she had no true female friends.

It did not take long to figure out why. She dislikes women. I am not sure how that works in your head, exactly, but she really really was negative on women in a way that blew me away.

We did not stay friends.

November 21, 2012

Do you deny that genuine reconconciliation can happen?

No, of course not.

It's just that, when I read of genuine reconciliation, it sounds a lot like the kind of marriage LFH is talking about--a relationship where both people make an effort to make the other feel important and appreciated. The genuinely reconciled couples exemplify the kind of marriage LFH values.

And that makes me question the reasons people give for not doing so before the affair. Was it really so impossible because of work and family demands? Or were the priorities off?

Sometimes, of course, a spouse can be loving and attentive and still be betrayed...but that's another scenario.

November 21, 2012

Miss Bee, I agree with everything in your post about how the OW and BW are not on a level playing field. But I would also add the role of the deception of the BW to your comments. I think keeping the BW in the dark about the existence of the OW is a big component of not having a level playing field. No matter what else, when one person of the triangle is purposely deceived about the fact that there is even a triangle, that person is not on a level playing field.

November 21, 2012

It's valid advice. I don't care WHO you take it from... but if more people did it, treated each other as if they WERE in fact their everything, like they treated them when they were dating... then more couples would stay happy.

This is the part I was "liking".

But gratitude is a two-way street. Neither partner will keep it up indefinitely if it isn't returned.

I agree in part with what you are saying. I don't treat my husband exactly the way we did when we were dating. We were 16! lol We have grown and evolved and continue to do so. Dating was fun, but I wouldn't want to feel like my marriage was a lifelong date.

(I hope that makes sense, I thought I had a good point to make but it won't come out written the way it feels in my head) lol

Edited November 24, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

November 21, 2012

My Xh was ill/hospitalized/transplant/recovering and I worked non-stop teaching on-line, 3 classes at a time, through all of it. I drove 60 miles each way every day while he was in the hospital one stretch, going home and taking care of our dogs, working until the wee hours and driving back. I moved with him to a temporary place in order for him to be close enough to be eligible for transplant. I gave him shots, cleaned up the mess he made (couldn't help himself), started and ran I.V.s, cleaned, cooked and let me tell you, I loved him and I was happy to do it. We were married for 22 years and he had already cheated on me once (at least). I got up very early and worked all freaking day until I went to bed, except for meals that I cooked and cleaning.

He found an old gf on facebook and the rest is history. He did not end up with her - she was married and was not willing to lose her family. I saw what he wrote to her and I also had long written conversations with her after the affair. He told her that I ignored him (I was working all of the time), that I yelled at him constantly - so not true - and that I yelled at him in front of the drs. and nurses. Please, really? He made it sound like he had been through everything alone. No sex? He COULD NOT DO IT. I tried, he was unable to with all of the medications.

My point? He lied his azz off, all to get her to feel sorry for him, to fall for him, to get her, to make me sound bad. Was I perfect? NO, NO, NO! But, I was not like he portrayed me. When the chips were down, he did not want out, but it was too late for me. Anyone who would do this to me did not deserve me. He immediately found another woman and he gave her the same lines. She fell for it and she can have him. He lies to get what he wants. What kind of person is like that? Who wants a liar? Who wants a cheater? What exactly do you win if you have a relationship with someone's spouse? You have a relationship with their spouse, not yours. if that is enough, then that is fine. That may be all you want in life, and if that is so, well good for you.

At the end of the day, you have precious little you can offer someone for certain (not wealth, not health for sure). You have yourself. I want the people I love to know they have my honesty along with my love.

I don't care what you may do and if you are with someone's spouse and it is ok with you, why would I care? But don't tell me that all these cheaters have bad, lazy, stupid spouses. I am not picking up what you are putting down.

Edited November 24, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

November 21, 2012

And that makes me question the reasons people give for not doing so before the affair. Was it really so impossible because of work and family demands? Or were the priorities off?.

Yes and yes. My life was manically busy. I was run into the ground with work/kids/chores. I also suffered from depression and we have a 9yr old with learning difficulties. It would have been hard enough if H had been taking half the burden but he didn't. H has only ever taken a diletante interest in housework .

And our priorities were almost certainly 'off'. My priority was keeping my head above water. Not sure what H's was but I think it was himself rather than me... As I said earlier the situation becomes utterly circular and futile. And there is simply no way to break out of it. We both tried again and again but it was like trying to fight our way out of a whirlpool. I often thought that we should divorce but didn't have the energy to get on and do it, and the horrible fact was that I loved the selfish bastard more than life itself - and I knew he loved me as much, we had had the perfect marriage/relationship for many years - but we had reached a point where that didn't seem to help. I never never want to be there again.

Since D-day H is stepping up to the plate. He is doing more, taking more responsibility. He has made me feel more loved and treasured than he has for years. And in return I do the same. We reset the meter. But to do that from the throes of the chaos was not possible.

But the question I return to again and again on here is why, if we were both feeling neglected, did only one party resort to infidelity?

"Sometimes, of course, a spouse can be loving and attentive and still be betrayed...but that's another scenario.

I think that is by far the most common scenario. I think that the lazy stupid selfish complacent wife/husband is fairly rare. It just hurts so much to see people making assumptions about BS bringing it all on their own heads when I can imagine them feeling as I did 5 months ago and then being told it was their own fault for not being perfect all the time. That just stinks. It really does.

PS. Apologies for the hybrid metaphors. I think they have been cross-breeding when I turn the light out..

November 21, 2012

[quote=Steen719;4404435

My Xh was ill/hospitalized/transplant/recovering and I worked non-stop teaching on-line, 3 classes at a time, through all of it. I drove 60 miles each way every day while he was in the hospital one stretch, going home and taking care of our dogs, working until the wee hours and driving back. I moved with him to a temporary place in order for him to be close enough to be eligible for transplant. I gave him shots, cleaned up the mess he made (couldn't help himself), started and ran I.V.s, cleaned, cooked and let me tell you, I loved him and I was happy to do it. We were married for 22 years and he had already cheated on me once (at least). I got up very early and worked all freaking day until I went to bed, except for meals that I cooked and cleaning.

.

Ah but Steen, you weren't making him feel appreciated. That's where you went wrong

I do something wonder with H if part of the reason for the affair was because he felt I was too good for him. He has always says he was punching above his weight with me. That he couldn't beleive his luck. Maybe he felt insecure. Add that to the mid-life crisis thing and the crappy childhood he had and maybe it was inevitable. His ow was quite needy and unhappy - I guess he liked being the kisa. Who knows..... but I do know I didn't deserve it. He tells me day in day out that I didn't deserve it. So f*cked up.

November 21, 2012

It's valid advice. I don't care WHO you take it from... but if more people did it, treated each other as if they WERE in fact their everything, like they treated them when they were dating... then more couples would stay happy.

The thing is, it applies to both people in a relationship.

Many WS might not be where they are if they had followed this advice from the start. The BS might not be the one who disregarded the advice.

November 21, 2012

The thing is, it applies to both people in a relationship.

Many WS might not be where they are if they had followed this advice from the start. The BS might not be the one who disregarded the advice.

Yay!!! Precisely.

November 22, 2012

Anyway, the major difference as stated is, an OW is someone who does not live with the MM daily, therefore her relationship with him, especially in long distance As, is going to be more akin to the extra effort people take in new, dating scenarios than it will be in marriage.

It is not usually because an OW is so much more naturally attentive and skillful, she can be attentive because of the situation. But have her be his day to day wife and that's when you will see if the playing field is even!

The playing field between an OW and BS is uneven....period. Because a wife and a gf or mistress are very different things. Some situations tip in favor of the OW (excitement factor, novelty factor etc) and some in favor of the BS. Knowing who is the "best woman" would be comparing a man dating two women he is not married to, who know about each other. Two of them with kids and responsibilities, and then seeing who "satisfies his needs" (I can' even say this with a straight face ) best! But so long as one woman is a woman he is not married to, hasn't known or been with as long as the other etc. there is NO comparison.

So really...an OW and BS are not on an even playing field until the OW becomes the wife or main woman, then you have a real comparison. But if you're someone he sees outside of his regular life, or sees you every now and again or even every day but for less time and less years than his wife...you're still "new" and that has not been tested and for the OW she will of course go out of her way...let's also see how she fares with this "prince" when she is his everyday wife and not his secret gf. She may find herself sympathizing with the former BS and seeing the man the BS got to see and not the prince she got to see who could put on his best behavior when he is stepping out of the comfort of his everyday life.

.... Or not.

As someone in the position you describe, who now lives everyday with her "prince" I can attest that my views as OW were spot on WRT who carried the load in their M, how easy he is to live with, etc. and, guess what, living with him everyday makes it no more of a chore to make an effort with him, just as he makes no less effort for me even though we are together 24X7. So I'm afraid all of those assumptions are simply wrong.

I can't speak for those whose As we're based on superficialities like "excitement factor or novelty factor" but for those whose As we're real Rs, there is no difference between being the OW or the W when it comes to the nature of your R as a couple. The love, respect, affection, attention, etc does not vanish simply because you put rings on each others fingers. It only vanishes if you choose to neglect each other and to allow deprioritisation to happen.

November 22, 2012

Cocorico, can I ask how long you and your H have been married? I ask, not to poke holes in how happy you are or how attentive you both still are, as someone who has been in a relationship for 27 years. I can say hand on heart, that the first 22 yrs were wonderful, we had the poster marriage and were still lovers as well as married folk. The months before H's A were like living with a stranger and no amount of attentiveness worked, and even if I were not attentive an A is sure no way to fix what is broken. 5 years on from D Day we are as we always were, with changes of course, but we do not take our love for granted, even when the crappy times call. Personally, I think the true strength of a relationship is when crappy times happen and think that no A can have the same dynamics as a marriage or the added responsibility that family, life, and all that goes with it has.

The even playing field is on D Day when all are in the know and I am glad you and your H are happy and it worked out for you, I hope it continues.

November 22, 2012

Yes. I became friends with a woman who I later found out had cheated multiple times. And when we first became friends, she would lament on and on about how she had no true female friends.

It did not take long to figure out why. She dislikes women. I am not sure how that works in your head, exactly, but she really really was negative on women in a way that blew me away.

We did not stay friends.

Or sometimes women do not like her! Beware of the woman who has few female friends......huge red flag.

November 22, 2012

Ah but Steen, you weren't making him feel appreciated. That's where you went wrong

Yep, that must be it. Silly me, thinking I was showing my love! The OW told me that she really thought I was a monster. Direct quotes from our conversations:

"I was led to believe your marriage was over and had been for many years. He convinced me you were a monster! I felt very sorry for him and wanted to be his friend. He seemed down on life due to his illness. I now know, he played on my emotions and I got caught up in the moment. I was stupid, and made a terrible mistake."

"

"I worried about him because I thought he didn't have anyone to take care of him. What an idiot I was."

"When he went to *****, he had asked me to go with him. He said you did not want to go. At the time I thought you were awful...He would tell me how mean you were to him and also that YOU screamed at him all the time, even in front of the doctors and nurses. I can't begin to imagine what YOU must have been going through. ; (( "

The last one was when we went back to the hospital for his one year check up. I went with him and evidently he was so very angry that I was there and she wasn't, he spent the entire week calling me names, staying on the computer out in the lobby at night and it was one of the worst weeks of my life. Oh Lord, it is hard to remember this crap.

My thanks for tonight is that was almost 1 1/2 years ago and I no longer cry every day.

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