cocorico Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 a couple of points after reading this thread... (a)- I honestly don't believe that the other man or other woman or even a wayward spouse can have a place in saying whether or not the other man/woman was involved in a marriage. That is the sole purvey of the betrayed spouse and how they feel. : ...which must thus imply that it is the sole purvey of the OW to determine whether or to what extent the BW had any relevance to her A.
Author frozensprouts Posted November 13, 2012 Author Posted November 13, 2012 ...which must thus imply that it is the sole purvey of the OW to determine whether or to what extent the BW had any relevance to her A. I actually agree with you on that, but that's not what we are talking about...we aren't talking here about how a other woman feels about the betrayed wife...it's not all about you :laugh::laugh::laugh: we are talking about how the betrayed spouse feels...does he or she feels that the other person was involved in some way in their marriage and to be honest, the other man/woman has no way of being able to answer that, as they are not inside her mind, feeling how she feels... 2
2sure Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 However, at the time, I would have said I had no involvement in his M and that it was all on him. It was him lying, not me. I was selfish and didn't care that he was married. For me, it was a lack of connection to and caring about others. I didn't know his W and didn't care how his W was being treated because of our A. I feel much more connected to others now, ... . That is me exactly. At the time I had no emotional reference for committment, true love , loyalty, etc. While I was not an emotional vagrant...I just didnt have (or came not to have) that connection and empathy that I should have. It wasnt meant as selfishness...it was Indifference. 2
Furious Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 That is me exactly. At the time I had no emotional reference for committment, true love , loyalty, etc. While I was not an emotional vagrant...I just didnt have (or came not to have) that connection and empathy that I should have. It wasnt meant as selfishness...it was Indifference. Ah come on 2sure, it was the morality police who made you change your perspective. 2
cocorico Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 I actually agree with you on that, but that's not what we are talking about...we aren't talking here about how a other woman feels about the betrayed wife...it's not all about you :laugh::laugh::laugh: we are talking about how the betrayed spouse feels...does he or she feels that the other person was involved in some way in their marriage and to be honest, the other man/woman has no way of being able to answer that, as they are not inside her mind, feeling how she feels... Oh, I have absolutely no problem agreeing that the BW may *feel* that the OW was involved in her M, and that, since perception is reality, that for her that is her reality and her truth. I also hold, though, that her reality and her truth are not my reality and my truth, nor can they be, since our vantage points on this are so different. I'm postmodern like that, I totally go with the Rashomon effect. 1
Furious Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 On d-day, I had absolute involvement in the OW's marriage. She didn't know this, and when she found out I had spoken with her husband she rang me up and had the nerve to say I had no right to interfere in her life. My response was, if you involved yourself with my marriage then I had every right to involve myself with her marriage. 7
Sauron Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 Pretty much the same line of thought from the same members. I love how the revenge factor plays out. My wife's friend, who I had, told her husband who told my wife. Since then no more married women for me. I say if you can't keep your SO happy don't go making a mess for someone else. That is spiteful, bitter and vindicative, which there is plenty of around here. YOU are responsible for keeping your marriage functional, and if YOU can't and your partner finds what is needed, then look at YOU. From the reading I have done many long term affairs affect nothing and go on for years. Does that mean a long term AP is in your marriage for 10 years, 15 or even 25? How does that square over 25 years? It doesn't make sense. 1
Sauron Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 The post above assumes that om/ow want the married person to leave. I would say that the majority of AP's never expect the married person to leave. That is not true in every case. Some are happy in their roles and don't expect anything other than a human relationship. The dumb a$$ MM that lie about their marital status are idiots by the way, and if your married to one of them, well...
Owl Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Pretty much the same line of thought from the same members. I love how the revenge factor plays out. My wife's friend, who I had, told her husband who told my wife. Since then no more married women for me. I say if you can't keep your SO happy don't go making a mess for someone else. That is spiteful, bitter and vindicative, which there is plenty of around here. YOU are responsible for keeping your marriage functional, and if YOU can't and your partner finds what is needed, then look at YOU. From the reading I have done many long term affairs affect nothing and go on for years. Does that mean a long term AP is in your marriage for 10 years, 15 or even 25? How does that square over 25 years? It doesn't make sense. Why did it matter? Did your wife actually feel some kind of hurt/anger/betrayal because of your actions? How is his "tattling" any worse than YOUR deliberately 'doing'? What you're missing out on here (deliberately I'm sure) is that the "lack" may not be in the BS (or in your wife)...that "lack" is most commonly within the WS themselves (YOU). Perhaps the "fix" lies outside of the scope of your wife's ability to "fix"??? But entirely within your own...if you had the wherewithal to do so? Thought I'd add...I do agree. Same argements from the same folks. -SHEESH Edited November 13, 2012 by Owl 5
whichwayisup Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 The post above assumes that om/ow want the married person to leave. I would say that the majority of AP's never expect the married person to leave. That is not true in every case. Some are happy in their roles and don't expect anything other than a human relationship. The dumb a$$ MM that lie about their marital status are idiots by the way, and if your married to one of them, well... Ratio on LS it seems anyway, most OW start the A with no intention of asking the MM to leave and divorce his wife ... But as time goes on, she becomes more and more attached, that all changes. Throw in the usual 'broken promises, empty words' of a MM saying "I'll leave my wife, marry you and we'll have children of our own" and a life is planned - just enhances feelings and desires, hopes and dreams of a life together. I see it all the time on here. There are a select few who are happy just being the OW and don't put the MM first. Those OW go on and live their life as they please, 'dating' the MM but not investing so much emotionally into him and not making him their 'everything'.
Summer Breeze Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 Ratio on LS it seems anyway, most OW start the A with no intention of asking the MM to leave and divorce his wife ... But as time goes on, she becomes more and more attached, that all changes. Throw in the usual 'broken promises, empty words' of a MM saying "I'll leave my wife, marry you and we'll have children of our own" and a life is planned - just enhances feelings and desires, hopes and dreams of a life together. I see it all the time on here. There are a select few who are happy just being the OW and don't put the MM first. Those OW go on and live their life as they please, 'dating' the MM but not investing so much emotionally into him and not making him their 'everything'. I think this is a really good post WWIU. I didn't want to be an OW but I conducted our R just like I did any dating situation. As much as people would like to believe the BS was a point of conversation or some sort of presence in the R, she wasn't. We had an R and it was based on our own history and grew like any other R. Until it couldn't grow into what would have been 'the next step' and rather than just sharing our lives we would merge them. So yes, I did just as you said. I fell in love with someone and I enjoyed it and accepted its limits until I didn't enjoy it and didn't want to accept the limits. At that point it was done and I ended it. I always knew I wasn't the type to stay in that situation indefinitely but what we had kept me there for a while and what we couldn't have made me leave it. Good post. 2
Author frozensprouts Posted November 14, 2012 Author Posted November 14, 2012 I think it is just too hard for the BSs to accept that they were irrelevant to the EMR. They didn't matter. Zilch. Nothing. If anything at all, a small nuisance. i will repeat one more time... this isn't about you or any other other man/woman and how they feel...it's about how the betrayed spouse feels and if they feel that the other man/woman was involved in their marriage, even if it's solely because the affair affected their marriage, then that's their reality. you may have felt differently when your husband was cheating, and that's fine, that's your reality, and no one can quibble with you about it as for how you feel about your affair, that's not at question here...it's how a betrayed spouse feels, and if it that doesn't mesh with how you see it, that's too bad ( it's the same as a wife/husband trying to tell and other man/woman that the marriage is somehow a part of the affair...they can't really so that, as that depends on how the two involved feel) 2
waterwoman Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 I think it is just too hard for the BSs to accept that they were irrelevant to the EMR. They didn't matter. Zilch. Nothing. If anything at all, a small nuisance. Yes it is hard to accept. Because when you are with someone for a long-time and expect to be so exclusively, you assume that when that exclusivity is broken, it has to be something to do with you. Your marriage has been 'updated' and you don't know about it. It is damned hard to accept that you don't matter when the affair has such an impact on you. 1
woinlove Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) I think it is just too hard for the BSs to accept that they were irrelevant to the EMR. They didn't matter. Zilch. Nothing. If anything at all, a small nuisance. I don't think that is it at all. I think the BS's feel a lot of pain and hurt from the deception and betrayal and, often, also a lack of understanding of how the AP might not care that that their A caused all that hurt. Also, I personally don't find ANY person to be nothing but a small nuisance. Life itself is amazing, and every person, even the most troubled and awful, still carries humanity within them. And in most affairs the BS is actually a pretty large factor. The BS can bring in factors of competition, obstacle to out in the open R, feelings of why marry him/her and not the AP, might control the schedule, take holidays, prevent the AP from spending time in the MP's home, etc. Edited November 14, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator 3
ComingInHot Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 I am ComingInHot's husband. I ROYALLY screwed up by having an Affair!! I took a minute to read this thread & it gave me some Valuable insight as to how the OW completely distorts the "relationship". My EXmistress was totally INVOLVED in my marriage. I didn't realize it at the time but she took all the lines I was throwing her to manipulate my feelings towards my wife in attempt to get me to leave. I was NEVER going to leave my wife. After I realized what a huge mistake I made, I dumped OW. She didn't like that one bit, especially when she realized my attempts at remaining friends was so she wouldn't tell my Wife. She would always ask me how I was (hoping I'd say I was miserable w/out her and "stuck" in an unhappy marriage) and inquire if my Wife was treating me better... She wanted ammunition. The Affair was my fault and my choice. I will wish everyday that I could go back and undo my decisions. The OW is at fault to as she knew I was married and chose to Involve herself anyway. I actually have to get a lawyer involved to draft a cease letter to get her to leave My wife alone. I will. NEVER involve a person who is not a friend of the marriage into our lives ever again. I'm thankful everyday that I wake u and see my gorgeous wife lying next to me! Thank God my Wife's moral compass and heart is pointed in the right direction. Shutter to think I could have been left to end up w/someone like the OW or anyone for that matter because they would NEVER hold a candle to my Wife not in beauty, spirit or mind!! 5
Summer Breeze Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 I am ComingInHot's husband. I ROYALLY screwed up by having an Affair!! I took a minute to read this thread & it gave me some Valuable insight as to how the OW completely distorts the "relationship". My EXmistress was totally INVOLVED in my marriage. I didn't realize it at the time but she took all the lines I was throwing her to manipulate my feelings towards my wife in attempt to get me to leave. I was NEVER going to leave my wife. After I realized what a huge mistake I made, I dumped OW. She didn't like that one bit, especially when she realized my attempts at remaining friends was so she wouldn't tell my Wife. She would always ask me how I was (hoping I'd say I was miserable w/out her and "stuck" in an unhappy marriage) and inquire if my Wife was treating me better... She wanted ammunition. The Affair was my fault and my choice. I will wish everyday that I could go back and undo my decisions. The OW is at fault to as she knew I was married and chose to Involve herself anyway. I actually have to get a lawyer involved to draft a cease letter to get her to leave My wife alone. I will. NEVER involve a person who is not a friend of the marriage into our lives ever again. I'm thankful everyday that I wake u and see my gorgeous wife lying next to me! Thank God my Wife's moral compass and heart is pointed in the right direction. Shutter to think I could have been left to end up w/someone like the OW or anyone for that matter because they would NEVER hold a candle to my Wife not in beauty, spirit or mind!! Bolded is the line that sticks out most to me. Why is it any surprise to you (general you, meaning MM/MW) that someone would trust what you say and expound on it? If you lead an OW/OM to believe things aren't good and you're feeding them lines why does it surprise you that they choose to believe you? This all goes back to my belief that the fault lies with the WS. Sorry CIH's H this was to your post but meant as a general response. BTW. I love what you've written about your W. You are one very lucky man because I'd have kicked your backside out the door. Behave! You'll have us to answer to if you hurt her again! 1
Author frozensprouts Posted November 14, 2012 Author Posted November 14, 2012 Since it was my words on another thread which led to the OP, I am quoting the post above since it clearly states my perspective. actually, it didn't have much to do with anything you wrote...it's an overall synopsis of an attitude I've seen on here form any different posters during the time I've used this site... this isn't all about you 4
Owl Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 I think it is just too hard for the BSs to accept that they were irrelevant to the EMR. They didn't matter. Zilch. Nothing. If anything at all, a small nuisance. I think that this is just pure wishful thinking at it's most obvious. If Neo's wife were irrelevent...then the two of you would be ACTUALLY together, living together, today. The fact that he refuses to leave her MAKES her relevent to your EMR with him. It limits the scope/depth/interaction of your relationship with him...severely. Trying to convince yourself that she is nothing more than a "small nuisance" is just trying to ignore the real situation. The fact that he IS married defines the limits of his interactions with you. The fact that he won't leave...and has refused to leave for years...has a very huge impact on the EMR. And...the fact that he does indeed spend some time focused on you...which detracts from his ability to focus on her...means that the EMR has some very definite impact on the marriage as well. Which is the number one reason why eventually a WS is typically forced to choose...unless one or the other (or both) BS and AP are too emotionally weak to insist/demand on what they know that they require in order to allow their relationship to either recover or fully mature. 9
seren Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 I think it is just too hard for the BSs to accept that they were irrelevant to the EMR. They didn't matter. Zilch. Nothing. If anything at all, a small nuisance. I hope with all that I have that during the A I was irrelevant to the EMR. I understand that, in the same way I understand that after D Day the OW and A was totally irrelevant to our marriage. Much the same thing I think. I don't think of the OW as a nuisance though, I felt that she was owed closure and also felt sorry that she had been hurt by the train wreck that H was at that time. TBH I refuse to go along with H when he says how little she meant and don't get drawn into bad mouthing her - it would serve no purpose to me and TBH, it is now past history and so while she is not a nuisance, she is irrelevant to our situation now. I am an XBS who would prefer that my H could say his A was for love, I understand love, I don't undersatnd using someone, yet he cannot say that as it was what it was, unfortunately the OW didn't feel that way and so got hurt and for that I feel sorry for her. During the A, the OW wanted to know all about me, I of course knew nothing about her, so her involvement was more along the lines of feeding H with questions and trying to put a spin on some of my actions. Afterwards I think our conversation about her was largely dealt with on D Day, afterwards we were more concerned with us and our future than what had been. Not meant snarkily, there is really no point in that and bitterness is so not my way. I know that she intended to put her oar in and stir the pot, she told me so herself and frankly, I don't blame her, it is who she is. 3
woinlove Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 Bolded is the line that sticks out most to me. Why is it any surprise to you (general you, meaning MM/MW) that someone would trust what you say and expound on it? If you lead an OW/OM to believe things aren't good and you're feeding them lines why does it surprise you that they choose to believe you? I thought as you describe while I was in the A, but when our A turned into an out in the open R, I started to look at things more broadly. Just as a business person would question a potential business partner who had cheated another business partner, but said "trust me, I'm being honest with you and would never do that to you", I came to see that one has to look at the whole person. I came to look at how he behaved in general, and not just with me. I think that is common when you really love someone, as opposed to being caught up in infatuation and focussed on "feel-good" highs - to take in the entire person, and to be interested about how they treat others too. Now, I would see it as foolhardy to trust a person who is showing they are not trustworthy, right then and there, with others in their life. Maybe some of this differing view (feeling why shouldn't an OW just take a MM at his word versus being more cautious) is connected to differing views on whether the OW/OM is involved in the M. If one views the OW/OM as not involved in any way, perhaps seeing the M and BS as having no impact and being of no importance in some cases, then one may also see the MM/MM's behavior to their spouse (and possibly to their wider family) as having no importance. This might lead one to conclude that one should just trust them. But, I would argue that people can't be so divided up like that. Some may compartmentalize well, and then, boom, some crisis happens, and all of a sudden those pieces they kept separate aren't so separate after all. Personally, I don't view severe compartmentalization of different parts of one's personal life to be healthy and I think it is often likely to give way. So, I think it is always best to be interested in the whole person if you are talking about someone you want to have an important intimate relationship with and whom you may love. Once you do that, I think one comes to see the impact on the BS and M as well.
woinlove Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 I hope with all that I have that during the A I was irrelevant to the EMR. I understand that, in the same way I understand that after D Day the OW and A was totally irrelevant to our marriage. Much the same thing I think. Seren, a very kind and thoughtful post as always. But I don't understand the part above which is key to the idea that the BS is irrelevant and, so, there isn't any involvement in the M. I can understand why the OW is irrelevant to your M, because you can and do have exactly what you want, a strong, loving M and it doesn't involve the OW. But if one only wants a secret A, then one wants something that requires a BS, so that is a necessary ingredient. On the other hand, if one is in an A and wants an out-in-the-open R, then the BS stands in the way, unless the MP divorces, in which case there is no longer an A. So, it seems to me, while in an A, the BS is very relevant, whether one wants to acknowledge that or not. I can imagine wishing or wanting the BS to be irrelevant, but that is not the same as being irrelevant. But, perhaps I am missing some perspective you have thought of that gives more of the symmetry your post suggests. If so, I'd be interested in hearing this, since, if it is logically consistent that a BS is irrelevant to an A, then one might argue there is no involvement in the M. 1
Spark1111 Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 I am ComingInHot's husband. I ROYALLY screwed up by having an Affair!! I took a minute to read this thread & it gave me some Valuable insight as to how the OW completely distorts the "relationship". My EXmistress was totally INVOLVED in my marriage. I didn't realize it at the time but she took all the lines I was throwing her to manipulate my feelings towards my wife in attempt to get me to leave. I was NEVER going to leave my wife. After I realized what a huge mistake I made, I dumped OW. She didn't like that one bit, especially when she realized my attempts at remaining friends was so she wouldn't tell my Wife. She would always ask me how I was (hoping I'd say I was miserable w/out her and "stuck" in an unhappy marriage) and inquire if my Wife was treating me better... She wanted ammunition. The Affair was my fault and my choice. I will wish everyday that I could go back and undo my decisions. The OW is at fault to as she knew I was married and chose to Involve herself anyway. I actually have to get a lawyer involved to draft a cease letter to get her to leave My wife alone. I will. NEVER involve a person who is not a friend of the marriage into our lives ever again. I'm thankful everyday that I wake u and see my gorgeous wife lying next to me! Thank God my Wife's moral compass and heart is pointed in the right direction. Shutter to think I could have been left to end up w/someone like the OW or anyone for that matter because they would NEVER hold a candle to my Wife not in beauty, spirit or mind!! I can relate. While I was not a blip on their affair radar, I wasn't inconsequential at all. Call me the big pink elephant in the middle of the room, or bed, as you will. Actively disliking me and my actions, either stated, implied or spun negatively, is a huge part of the triangle dynamic. Someone has to be wrong, so someone can feel right. Some things have to be justified so people can live with the unjustifiable. Some have to be rendered inferior, so others can feel empowered by being superior. It screams "Choose me, choose me!" even if the BS's name is not even mentioned. 2
Summer Breeze Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 I can relate. While I was not a blip on their affair radar, I wasn't inconsequential at all. Call me the big pink elephant in the middle of the room, or bed, as you will. Actively disliking me and my actions, either stated, implied or spun negatively, is a huge part of the triangle dynamic. Someone has to be wrong, so someone can feel right. Some things have to be justified so people can live with the unjustifiable. Some have to be rendered inferior, so others can feel empowered by being superior. It screams "Choose me, choose me!" even if the BS's name is not even mentioned. I think this pretty well sums up the role of an AP when they're involved in the M. You've always stressed the OW had problems with you and it carried on after. She was actively trying to break up your M. To me that is an AP that is involved rather than one in the A and having an impact because of involvement in the A. We didn't talk about his W. She wasn't a pink elephant anywhere because I knew we were never going to be together. He had his life and I had mine. If I had been promised the moon and taken the promises and 'lines' to heart then I may well have reacted differently and involved myself in the M. In other words maybe I would have been competitive with his W and tried to 'win' him. I think I post from my knowledge of the A and make my comments about that, so to me involvement and impact are miles apart. Every dday I just went about my business and never contacted him. I wasn't in competition and I always figured, this time he'll realize he's pushed it too far and I won't hear from him. I didn't chase or stalk or terrorize. I never actively involved myself in their M. My involvement in the A completely impacted the M because of his choice to be in the A. I hope that makes sense. I've had far too little sleep recently!
Summer Breeze Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 This makes me sad. Nobody in this world is irrelevant. I was quite relevant during my husband's affair, because if it weren't for me, they would not have had to hide and lie. I was VERY relevant because my husband refused to leave me. I was relevant every time they planned a secret rendezvous and I would mess up their plans. I was relevant each time they fought about my husband's love for me. I was relevant each time they spoke about me or our marriage. You're fooling yourself if you think his wife is irrelevant...she's relevant each and every time you think of her. She's relevant every time you wish you could be together. No disrespect meant here whatsoever. I do completely agree no one is irrelevent. I disagree however that the BS is relevent in every A. I agree DMMs W was relevent in the last day when I ended things because I realized I wanted more and he wouldn't leave. Before that she had been totally relevent to him but not to me. I never thought I was relevent to her on ddays but I was pretty sure I was to him. 1
Summer Breeze Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 I thought as you describe while I was in the A, but when our A turned into an out in the open R, I started to look at things more broadly. Just as a business person would question a potential business partner who had cheated another business partner, but said "trust me, I'm being honest with you and would never do that to you", I came to see that one has to look at the whole person. I came to look at how he behaved in general, and not just with me. I think that is common when you really love someone, as opposed to being caught up in infatuation and focussed on "feel-good" highs - to take in the entire person, and to be interested about how they treat others too. Now, I would see it as foolhardy to trust a person who is showing they are not trustworthy, right then and there, with others in their life. Maybe some of this differing view (feeling why shouldn't an OW just take a MM at his word versus being more cautious) is connected to differing views on whether the OW/OM is involved in the M. If one views the OW/OM as not involved in any way, perhaps seeing the M and BS as having no impact and being of no importance in some cases, then one may also see the MM/MM's behavior to their spouse (and possibly to their wider family) as having no importance. This might lead one to conclude that one should just trust them. But, I would argue that people can't be so divided up like that. Some may compartmentalize well, and then, boom, some crisis happens, and all of a sudden those pieces they kept separate aren't so separate after all. Personally, I don't view severe compartmentalization of different parts of one's personal life to be healthy and I think it is often likely to give way. So, I think it is always best to be interested in the whole person if you are talking about someone you want to have an important intimate relationship with and whom you may love. Once you do that, I think one comes to see the impact on the BS and M as well. I fully understand what you're saying and I've been in a position where I haven't trusted someone because of what they did to another. I also spent a lot of my time with dMM and we were in business ventures together. I also had an xH who cheated on me but I know in my heart is not a cheat. He is a good guy who made a bad decision. I struggle sometimes wondering if I should have stayed but he betrayed me. There was nothing in the world he could do to restore the trust that he ruined but in my heart I knew that was a one off for him. As far as I know he hasn't cheated and they've been M for about 20 years. In the same way I got to know dMM and I met his family and watched how he treated me in some personal crises. I had no reason not to trust him and I still don't. I agree you do need to watch people and sometimes it's the bigger picture that gives the littlest details. I chose to, and choose to, trust him much like a BS makes the choice to trust after such a betrayal as infidelity. Thanks wo. Very well stated and very true.
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