Some reasons why women don't initiate

[curlygirl40]

I have seen this topic come up a lot lately, so instead of replying I thought I would start a new thread.

 

And before you come down on me for these ideas, I have to say a couple of things.

 

There are many of us (me included) who will initiate sometimes. So yes, we're out there. And second, I'm just trying to give you guys some insight to how our minds work. I'm not saying that all girls feel this way, or that we don't understand that these things can apply to you guys as well. :-)

 

Reasons a woman might not ask a guy out, or make any kind of first move:

 

It’s heavily ingrained in our minds that a guy should ask us out.

 

We were taught early on that a guy does the initiating.

 

We were raised that way.

 

Many of us have learned, through experience, that when we do initiate it does not end well. The guy wasn’t really that interested but still went out with us (maybe even slept with us) but he lost interest quickly or was never really that interested to begin with.

 

We believe if a guy really wants to go out with us, he will build up the courage to ask us out. If he doesn’t build up the courage or is too shy, then maybe he’s just not that into us.

 

If we initiate, and the guy agrees to go out with us, then we will often wonder ‘does he really like me? Did he really want to go out with me or just not hurt my feelings? Is he just hoping I will sleep with him since I made the first move? Does he think I’m desperate?’. We don’t want those thoughts in our heads so we wait.

 

If we make it too easy on the guy, then there is no challenge and he will lose interest quickly.

 

We don’t like rejection either. Hate it.

 

It seems like the natural order of things, by years and years of this being the case and the belief being passed down to us.

 

We don't like to look desperate. We are told, over and over again, by our parents, by society, by our girlfriends, by our guy friends, by girl magazines, by relationship books, on and on and on, that guys initiate. So we don't want to look desperate if we go against that.

 

We don't know how you feel about these sorts of things. Maybe you're a guy who also thinks the guy should make the first move and we don't want to offend you or mess with the natural order of things.

 

Some women are naturally not as aggressive.

 

We believe you WANT to be the pursuer and that you like the challenge.

 

Even though we might be go-getters in our careers, in our personal lives we want a guy to step up to the plate and ask us out.

 

We like men that are confident, and we feel if they like us enough and they are confident enough, then they will make the first move.

 

If we work with you, or run in the same social circles, we don’t want to make things uncomfortable in the future if you reject us.

 

We like being your friend and we're afraid we're going to screw that up by asking you to be more.

 

We like being pursued, we want you to really want us and to show it. It makes us feel good to be asked out.

 

Since we’re not used to being the initiator,we don’t feel like we know how to do it, or we’re that good at it, we were never ‘taught’ how, so we’re scared to approach.

 

Getting a text or a call or a date from a guy who initiates it FEELS much better to us than getting a text or a call BACK from a guy. It just does.

 

Probably one of the number one reasons is this. We want you to really, really, really want us. We want there to be no doubt in your mind. We want you to want us enough to take that leap, gather your courage, and ask us out. If you don't do this, then we think you're just not that into us and we know to keep your interest, you will have to be really into us. So that's what we want.

 

We're afraid if we make it too easy, you're going to lose interest quickly.

 

Anyone else have any others to add?

 

Yes we know that men don’t like rejection also, we know you can be scared, we know you’re tired of it also. But just saying, there are some reasons why we do it.

[DC4]

Many of us have learned, through experience, that when we do initiate it does not end well. The guy wasn’t really that interested but still went out with us (maybe even slept with us) but he lost interest quickly or was never really that interested to begin with.

 

My #1 issue. I'll still pursue a man, but this feeling takes a long, long time to go away and makes me shy away from a man that I really like.

[ThaWholigan]

And thats why the player, the cheater, the user is so successful.....he uses these "assumptions" against the woman. And women keep falling for it, over and over.

Maybe shy guys need to get over it and talk to women. Just maybe......

[Imajerk17]

As a guy, I will say that us approaching works in our favor. I've said that many times on this forum. BUT I am also going to play Devil's Advocate here...

 

When we ask, we as men also have no idea if you're going out with us because you really want to, or instead because you have nothing better to do or your first choice didn't come through or because you don't want to say no. Or even if it is because some of you aren't going to turn down a free meal. We tend not to think about it too much though, we're just happy you said yes.

 

And on a related note, why is it on us guys to be really interested in you before the first date anyway, while it is OK for you to be neutral towards us but willing to "give us a chance"?

 

So yeah, this list does overall strike me as feminine sense of entitlement.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Imajerk17

[ThaWholigan]

Are you saying I am shy? Or you mean just shy guys in general?

 

I am not shy at all. I just dont agree with most of the stereotypical rules of our society and how they apply to dating.

I meant shy guys in general.

 

I'm not going to attempt to convince you to adapt, I had this conversation with a similar poster to you and he rejected the idea flat, saying he didn't want to become a "dancing clown" for women.

 

It's not about that, it's simply about being skilled verbally at "not f*cking up with women".

[carhill]

I'll add an addition, an important one in my demographic, and it's simple:

 

They don't have to.

 

It's a path of least resistance dynamic. If one gets what they want without a specific expenditure of effort, pragmatism indicates that conserving that effort is more efficient. I've found women to be very socially efficient, hence my observation.

[carhill]

Here's a tip:

 

Separate 'interest' from 'care' at the psychological level. The OP has delineated in a clear and concise fashion where she feels women's interest lies and what they care about. Any care for you is earned by your words and actions over time and is subject to change at any time. Once you accept that and learn to care less about it, the processing of the equation will cease to occupy space in your brain and heart and you can proceed in your own best interests, with your care being earned in an equal, balanced and healthy manner.

 

I'm reminded of Jim Carrey in 'Bruce Almighty' where he, endowed with God's powers, tries to 'will' Jennifer Aniston into 'loving him', snubbed by that uniquely human quality, 'free will'. The OP is expressing free will. Accepted.

[somedude81]

I don't care if women initiate or not.

 

But please give me some signals to show that you want me to ask you out.

 

And no, a smile and eye contact doesn't count.

 

For a guy, asking out girls is almost like trying to hunt, while blindfolded.

 

BTW ladies, here's a tip to see if a guy you don't know that well if interested.

 

He goes out of his way to walk up to you and starts talking to you about something. He might also ask what you are doing next.

 

That's your cue to do something, anything to show that you are interested in him. If you're not interested, kick him in the balls and he'll leave you alone from now on.

[curlygirl40]

Here's a tip:

 

Separate 'interest' from 'care' at the psychological level. The OP has delineated in a clear and concise fashion where she feels women's interest lies and what they care about. Any care for you is earned by your words and actions over time and is subject to change at any time. Once you accept that and learn to care less about it, the processing of the equation will cease to occupy space in your brain and heart and you can proceed in your own best interests, with your care being earned in an equal, balanced and healthy manner.

 

I'm reminded of Jim Carrey in 'Bruce Almighty' where he, endowed with God's powers, tries to 'will' Jennifer Aniston into 'loving him', snubbed by that uniquely human quality, 'free will'. The OP is expressing free will. Accepted.

 

That's the thing. I'm not saying it's wrong, or it's right, it just is. I have seen it many times where guys are asking women 'why do you do this, why do you act this way?' and I'm just laying out some reasons why.

 

I personally am almost never approached in public, so when somedude asks how can you tell if a girl is interested, I had to think about it because I'm not sure what I would do or how I would act, never being in that situation. Yet?

 

When I'm on a first date and it seems the guy is interested in me, and I'm interested in him also, I will touch his shoulder, or playfully touch his knee, or something of the sort. I will smile more, laugh more, look into his eyes more. Not saying these things are planned, just saying that when I'm interested, I'm engaged.

 

If I'm out with friends and see someone who would interest me, probably eye contact and a smile is all I could think to do. I am really good one on one on a date, but in a public setting like that I think I would be too nervous and I even had a gf tell me once that I am 'unapproachable'. Not sure how to fix that.

 

I do give you guys a lot of credit for always having to put yourselves out there. I imagine you feel the same way that we do about it.

[curlygirl40]

I get all those reasons. But am I wrong for also wanting to feel desired and wanted as a guy? I am asking because that never seems to be in the womens equation when it comes to dating.

 

Of course you're not wrong to feel that way. And once the ice is broken, a girl that is interested in you should make you feel that way.

[SmileFace]

I'll add an addition, an important one in my demographic, and it's simple:

 

They don't have to.

 

It's a path of least resistance dynamic. If one gets what they want without a specific expenditure of effort, pragmatism indicates that conserving that effort is more efficient. I've found women to be very socially efficient, hence my observation.

I actually came here to say this.

[crude]

If a woman looks closely, maybe being pursued isn't so great for her. I know many men who ask a woman out only because they could "do" her, then after 4 or 5 dates expect the merchandise they've paid for. Is that really all that satisfying for women? Sometimes guys even compare notes and take bets on when they can close the deal. So when women mention all the bad experiences they've had, the overwhelming majority were with the man taking the traditional role.

[DC4]

It's because women are terrified of rejection and would fold like a house of cards if they had to endure the amount of rejection the average guy has to face.

 

for crying out loud

[Revolver]

Because they don't have to. It's really that simple

[Under The Radar]

That is absolutely correct - in my case, anyway. I've simply never had to approach men, being very honest. They've always approached me.

 

That to me is different than having a sense of entitlement about the whole process.

[ScreamingTrees]

I h

We believe you WANT to be the pursuer and that you like the challenge.

 

Eww. No one wants to have to WORK for someone elses' attention and affection, or be kept in the dark about where they stand or have to deal with tiring games. That's what I think of when I hear you say "the challenge".. And no one in their right frame of mind likes the "challenge"..

 

Unless it's a player who'll just wait patiently to pump and dump you out of annoyance while he's screwing with someone else on the side.

 

I can sympathize with a lot of the other reasons you gave, it just is what it is and it's no big deal, but that one line made me sort of

[MrCastle]

This. I don't know how that myth "men like the challenge" have started. It's seems like something that girls tell other girls.

 

I'm a man and I like challenge. Part of this may be due to my competitive nature, but I always like to work for stuff. You get a sense of pride and accomplishment when you work at something and are rewarded for it.

 

I'm not going to brag about banging a girl 15 other guys banged before me. I get a sense of confidence when I'm competing against guys who may be better looking, may be taller, may have more money, may be more popular, may be more established in their career, and the girl picks me.

 

What I don't like, are dead ends.

 

Girls that tease. Attention whores. Girls that wave the pussy on a stick in front of your face and get you to run a never ending chase.

 

I like challenges but they need to be met with positive reinforcement. Not low interest, not game playing. An interested girl who wants me to come break down her walls. I'll rise to the occasion, but there has to be a reward.

[curlygirl40]

I'm a man and I like challenge. Part of this may be due to my competitive nature, but I always like to work for stuff. You get a sense of pride and accomplishment when you work at something and are rewarded for it.

 

I like challenges but they need to be met with positive reinforcement. Not low interest, not game playing. An interested girl who wants me to come break down her walls. I'll rise to the occasion, but there has to be a reward.

 

I'm so glad you chimed in and said this. This seems to be the word that strikes a nerve with so many.

 

But I'm telling you that some (many) women think this way. We have both experienced it and read it.

 

After not dating for 20 years (since I was a teen!), once out of my marriage I read SEVERAL dating/relationship books. And this thought is sprinkled throughout.

 

Men like a challenge. Don't take that away from them.

 

One even likened it to hunting. If you put a deer on a man's doorstep, he's not going to appreciate it as much as if he had to put on the gear and go out and hunt that deer down and take it home and show it off. Hang the antlers over the mantle. Men like to hunt. We're taught that.

 

Again, I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying that belief is out there.

[DC4]

 

Girls that wave the pussy on a stick

 

 

I need to see this immediately.

[musemaj11]

Average women dont approach not because they dont have to. Its more because they are more willing to settle for the best that comes to them.

 

A lot of women are with men whom they have little attraction for. Why? Because they dont want to be alone but at the same time they are unwilling/unable to go after the kind of man they really want.

 

On the other hand, GENERALLY men are a lot more target driven and less willing to settle for anything less than whats ideal in their minds. They would rather make an effort to get what they want than make no effort and not getting what they want as a result.

 

Personally, I follow a balanced mix of both approaches. Since I want to get the kind of woman that I really want, I realize the surest way to achieve this is by being the initiator although it doesnt matter to me who initiates first as long the woman is my type. However, at the same time I also dont want to be the guy the woman settles for despite not being the guy she really wants. So in order to avoid this, after making the initial move, I will be very observant of her behavior toward me. If she doesnt seem to be as eager to impress me as I am to her (initiating contacts, paying on dates, showing sexual desires, etc), then I will count her out as serious relationship prospect. I will keep dating her for sexual purpose though until Im no longer interested in her or at least until I feel that I have gotten back what I invested in her.

Edited November 8, 2012 by musemaj11

[somedude81]

There is a difference between a challenge, and making a guy jump through hoops.

 

Don't purposefully make it hard for a guy.

[PhillyDude]

As a guy, I will say that us approaching works in our favor. I've said that many times on this forum. BUT I am also going to play Devil's Advocate here...

 

When we ask, we as men also have no idea if you're going out with us because you really want to, or instead because you have nothing better to do or your first choice didn't come through or because you don't want to say no. Or even if it is because some of you aren't going to turn down a free meal. We tend not to think about it too much though, we're just happy you said yes.

 

And on a related note, why is it on us guys to be really interested in you before the first date anyway, while it is OK for you to be neutral towards us but willing to "give us a chance"?

 

 

 

 

 

So yeah, this list does overall strike me as feminine sense of entitlement.

 

 

Because most women believe that they have something that men can't live without which is their "Vagina"

[Mme. Chaucer]

Because most women believe that they have something that men can't live without which is their "Vagina"

 

No, we don't. But you can find many threads here by men who are saying that their need for human vagina ranks on a par with their need for food and water for survival, and they quote Malsow's scale to prove it.

 

But I digress.

 

The OP is right on. Socially, women have traditionally been courted, and men have done the courting. It's easier for individuals to maintain that status quo than to change it. A woman would have to have a motivation to change this dynamic. If she doesn't have motivation, she is not likely to.

 

I would like people to consider that even though it's true that in general, men risk the pain of rejection much more than women do in dating, they have been primed socially to accept this role, just as women have been primed to expect to be asked.

 

And that once courtship is established, women take a great deal of the responsibility for the life of a relationship, generally speaking.

 

In healthy relationships, things do even out.

 

Bottom line, though, is that people should try to be brave about stepping out of their comfort zones and going after what they want, when they know what they want. Challenging insecurity and shyness is good for all of us.

[Spreeley713]

I have no qualms about approaching a guy if I'm into him. I'm not a sit around and wait kind of person. Then again, the last two guys turned out to be flaky after awhile, so maybe I should let myself be chased from now on.

[ScreamingTrees]

I'm so glad you chimed in and said this. This seems to be the word that strikes a nerve with so many.

 

But I'm telling you that some (many) women think this way. We have both experienced it and read it.

 

After not dating for 20 years (since I was a teen!), once out of my marriage I read SEVERAL dating/relationship books. And this thought is sprinkled throughout.

 

Men like a challenge. Don't take that away from them.

 

One even likened it to hunting. If you put a deer on a man's doorstep, he's not going to appreciate it as much as if he had to put on the gear and go out and hunt that deer down and take it home and show it off. Hang the antlers over the mantle. Men like to hunt. We're taught that.

 

Again, I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying that belief is out there.

 

Well, maybe that would explain any future dating struggles with girls who seemed disinterested to a straight forward no bull**** guy like myself. You're either with me, or you get out of the way.

 

Define a "challenge".. What is it to be a "challenge" to a guy, anyway? Emotionally/mentally unavailable? Playing games with his head? Those guys are chumps. I don't feel like I've "accomplished' anything, I'd just feel like I wasted my time on someone who really wasn't that interested to begin with, a wasted effort that I could've spent on someone who was more available and interested.

 

Am I less of a man because I don't like bull****? Or is the "challenge" not a load of bull****? Is it actually something enjoyable for the guy? Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions and mistaking basic "courtship" for a challenge.

 

When a physical/mental spark is genuinely there, and there is true interest on both sides, the early stages of a healthy relationship are never "hard", everything just flows easily and both parties are excited and enthusiastic.. There's no "challenge" there, and yet these women claim those beginnings are often the most likely to be most successful and long-lasting.

 

Or so lots of female posters here have said, maybe they're just bull****ting? Maybe you do have to eat a whole lot of **** for someone you don't really know that well, just to win some arbitrary "challenge"..