The engagement ultimatum...

[dhcp]

So I'm a 40-year old guy, been through lots of relationships over the years, many of them have been incredibly good and I've grown from them, I think I've usually benefitted from the relationships more than they have. I've been lucky.

 

I had a girlfriend for about four years who is about 10 years younger than me. She went off to law school across the country and the relationship developed more during this time apart. We flew back and forth about once every 3 or 4 weeks, talked on the phone once or twice a day and she was gung-ho about getting engaged and moving back after law school. I admit I wasn't 100% sure about it, more of a fear of getting re-married, but it kind of grew on me over time.

 

The duration apart wasn't painless. We had on and off-again times, we both hooked up with other people over the years. She really raked me over the coals for some of the mistakes I legitimately made and I caught her in some lies and doing some off the same things she accused me of, infidelity, unhealthy relationships with other people, etc. Both our hands were dirty. We were both loyal for a long time in our relationship, then about eight months ago things broke. I was raked over the coals only to later find she was just as bad.

 

But the girl love me like crazy and I loved and felt secure with her, despite all the crap. There were certainly ebb and flow to the time we were together.

 

But, it's all kind of came to a head recently. She wanted to get engaged and move back. I kicked down $40k for a ring at Tiffany & Co, (you can do that at 40.) My choice of ring, not hers. But I still had hesitation and still have the ring today. She was 10 years younger but in her 30's and had a serious attorney job and whatnot but she was still really immature in many ways. She could be vindictive and just didn't have a lot of worldly experience nor seemed interested in getting any. I've traveled the world and she just has no interest. She would rarely own up to her mistakes and would make excuses or somehow blame me for the reason she did them. I've always been very upfront about owning my mistakes.

 

I could put out a laundry list of reasons why we weren't quite the perfect fit but we loved each other, I'm sure of that, and that love felt good.

 

She was also very attractive, the kind that gets approached everywhere. She looks like she is about 22 with a rocking body, which sounds awesome, but it made me self-concious when we were out because I think people wondered if I was her dad or something. Creepy. Not that i'm a bad looking guy by any stretch, I get long eye contact all the time from women and I have good confidence and I'm social and upbeat.

 

She still lives across the country right now. Came down to it and she kind of had the "propose now or we are done" ultimatum. I came close a few times, couldn't do it. She started seeing other guys, secretly and maintaing a handful of unhealthy text relationships with guys. She tells just enough truths about things I don't know to make me feel she is giving me a full disclosure but when I dig into things I find it's usually a lot worse than she lead on. She seems to have a pride that doesn't allow her to own up to mistakes or unflattering things. Again, immature. She wasn't going to move without a ring and I kind of understand, she has a good job and stuff and isn't going to move back without that ring of commitment.

 

Yeah, yeah, lots of bad things and I did lots too along the way. It's been a long road.

 

So back to the present, she is slipping away and is accepting that I'm not going to propose to her and she had a few other "fires" burning on the side while I waffled in indecision and I told her I wouldn't propose unless she was 100% loyal to me only, now. She said she isn't giving up anything she is developing on the side until I put a ring in her finger. I'm not sure if I'm making excuses for "reasons" that I can't propose.

 

Getting at the meat of the question, I promise:

 

I know her well and I'm a good talker and I feel that I could hard-sell her to come around again and get her to drop the other relationships and be ready for a proposal. She wants the proposal and marriage with me bad. I've talked to her and when I feel she is starting to cave into me again, I find myself backing off. It's like I want her to want me and want her to be willing to re-commit her to us but as soon as she does, I back off. I sound bad and as I write this I'm starting to feel I am, but she certainly is good about working a "new guy" she is seeing into my face and under my skin, so she is working it too. We both aren't good and I feel like it's my ego that doesn't want to let go.

 

So is a strict NC policy the way to deal with this? I've read literally hundreds of posts on here and they are incredibly helpful in general coping although didn't find quite the right thing.

 

The problem in this one is me (at least the part I have control over) - I could have her if I'm willing to propose to her, but I'm still stinging from the betrayal I've felt from her over the last few times when I've caught her lying and maintaining unhealthy relationships. At the same time, somewhere in my head I know that she isn't the healthy relationship I need, that there are just some core things that are different about us that aren't going to be complementary. Lots of logic reasons why it shouldn't work, yet emotionally I just can't seem to let go. I'm trying to determine if I'm just selfish? Immature? I want her attention, want to feel I can trust her completely again and want her loyalty (and I give mine) but there is just that "something" missing that should be making me want to run to her with ring in hand.

 

I guess it's like being given the engagement ultimatum and not feeling completely right enough to do it, but at the same time not wanting to lose her either. You mind says it isn't going work, you heart can't let her go.

 

Apologies for the long rambling message, I really haven't had anyone to talk to about this and I think writing the post is a bit of therapy in itself.

 

Any thoughts you would like to pass on, most welcome. They don't have to be flattering.

 

Thanks all.

Edited November 6, 2012 by dhcp

[Minka333]

If you are half-hearted coz' of the many issues you have, just let her go.

 

You are both holding yourselves from a chance of happiness with other people.*

 

I think she loves you for wanting to marry you but is also scared that you are stringing her along hence the reason why she is "grooming" other guys.*

 

I know it's wrong but since you mentioned she is in her 30's then she may be trying to catch time and develop other potential relationships just in case you decide to drop her.

 

She cannot forever wait for you if you are stuck in a limbo. If you don't think she is the one then be honest about it and let her know.

 

You will just both forever dance in circles if you don't man up and do something about it now. If you think it won't work out..just let her move on.

[Balzac]

It's interesting that she's a newly minted JD, putting the strong arm to you, what's her goal? Law in a decent firm is rough n tough for women. Babies, unless fully nannied up and hard ball tough, cut her out of partner track.

She may be good enough or truly amazing but the time demanded is long.

 

Cheating, not cheating, the "big" ring is less than standard $ of her starting salary unless she's public service. Every gurl dreams of the Tiffany Blue w White Ribbon, nice decision. She "gets" contracts. Propose and if it's an epic fail, be sure to buy event insurance!

 

You've maneuvered around and through bad behavior, you're still together.

Good luck with this.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Balzac
You've not been married?

[dhcp]

If you are half-hearted coz' of the many issues you have, just let her go.

 

You are both holding yourselves from a chance of happiness with other people.*

 

I think she loves you for wanting to marry you but is also scared that you are stringing her along hence the reason why she is "grooming" other guys.*

 

I know it's wrong but since you mentioned she is in her 30's then she may be trying to catch time and develop other potential relationships just in case you decide to drop her.

 

She cannot forever wait for you if you are stuck in a limbo. If you don't think she is the one then be honest about it and let her know.

 

You will just both forever dance in circles if you don't man up and do something about it now. If you think it won't work out..just let her move on.

 

You are right of course, it's just so hard to break that emotional tug and habit of having her there and having a "plan" in life.

 

I'm sure you are right as well that she keeps little fires burning with other guys so she has a backup plan or a soft-landing if things go completely sideways with us. I can usually tell when it's happening because she gets a little more defiant when she talks to me, I guess she is just more confident with the "hey, I'll be ok" and can tell me to pound sand? Sound reasonable?

 

And yes, women sure like that little blue box...

[Frank13]

Take a picture of the ring. If it doesn't work out, send her the picture and tell her how much it cost.

 

Frankly, with the way she is behaving, I think she would cheat on you after you got married to her.

[Minka333]

Well, you both have issues. It's not like you are an angel either. So if there is still a way to talk out your issues then maybe there's a chance.

 

She must be in some sort of panic mode as her biological clock is ticking. If you leave her then she has to start from scratch again. And if she is concerned about having kids then she must not waste time.

 

If she didn't love you, she would've dropped you a long time ago and chose from the many men waiting on the sidelines. I guess if she did that she would feel like she is just settling. That is why she is still giving you the chance. Also, the reason why she could easily dump the other guys is because you are the one she ultimately wants.

 

She must be in some catch22 situation as she must've also been pressured by family and society. Yet can't do anything about it coz' the power is in your hands.

 

Maybe you both can try some serious counseling...

 

And yes, we like that li'l blue box especially if it comes from the man we love.

[dhcp]

Take a picture of the ring. If it doesn't work out, send her the picture and tell her how much it cost.

 

Frankly, with the way she is behaving, I think she would cheat on you after you got married to her.

 

That's the concern Frank - as Minka said, I'm no angel either, but I have this fantasy that once the security of an engagement is in place that the insecurities will settle down and the cheating risk will stop. Is that misguided?

[dhcp]

If she didn't love you, she would've dropped you a long time ago and chose from the many men waiting on the sidelines. I guess if she did that she would feel like she is just settling. That is why she is still giving you the chance. Also, the reason why she could easily dump the other guys is because you are the one she ultimately wants.

 

She must be in some catch22 situation as she must've also been pressured by family and society. Yet can't do anything about it coz' the power is in your hands.

 

That's great insight. I suppose I'm in the "lead" among suitors but I have to admit that I'm not good at dealing with the competition, I get the attitude of "commit to us or I walk" - I don't want to deal with the jealousy of who she is communicating with. She's one of those people that has little text relationships with a handful of random people met at bars or something and I'm not comfortable with it and put my foot down whenever I hear about it.

 

She once gave me her phone bill and the amount of texts with a handful of dudes was pretty enlightening. I think it was her way of coming clean as to what had been going on. Just as interesting as the "who" she was texting with was the analysis of the when. Who were the first people she texted in the morning? Did she always originate the texting each day (usually), who did she chat with last at night? Who was scattered throughout the day. It certainly made for some obsessive analyzing.

 

I've always had the opinion that when you have a friend that is in a f-ed up relationship you can see it pretty clearly from the outside and while your friend is totally spun up and not seeing the forest for the trees, sometimes you as an outside can.

 

That's how I feel about the forums here. Not like people are going to have all the facts necessary but off-the-cuff opinions are very much appreciated because as I said, being in the middle of it gives you a very micro view of things and sometimes it takes an outsider to point out the somewhat obvious.

 

My point being, thank you all, I appreciate any input or opinions on this.

[theLWord]

I think you should take that ring back or sell it and go on a nice vacation for yourself. It doesn't sound good, and her giving you that ultimatum with the fact that you can't really trust her sounds like bad news. Take if from someone who dated a compulsive liar, it doesn't get better. It hurts over and over and everything she says will drive you crazy wondering if it's the truth. It never ends well when people get married out of pressure, don't do that.

[dhcp]

I had a girlfriend for about four years who is about 10 years younger than me. She went off to law school across the country and the relationship developed more during this time apart. We flew back and forth about once every 3 or 4 weeks, talked on the phone once or twice a day and she was gung-ho about getting engaged and moving back after law school. I admit I wasn't 100% sure about it, more of a fear of getting re-married, but it kind of grew on me over time.

 

So a follow-up, but first the cliffs:

 

I'm 40, she is an early 30's attorney, I'm a senior person at a high-tech firm you all know well. Both of us have great careers, 4-year relationship.

 

She gave me the marriage ultimatum just before Thanksgiving 2012 and I wanted it, really wanted it, but just had some issue with her not being able to stop "monkey branching" - maintaing little text relationships with random guys she would meet, not doing anything with them but clearly having them as "backup".

 

She's super cute and gets hit on all the time, which I never lost much sleep over, but just before Thanksgiving she mentioned a law professor that she chatted with at lunch and I set my boundary - she admitted to exchanging numbers and texted back and forth about some work-related stuff and I said she absolutely had to cut that now, I wasn't going to accept it.

 

She instead met up with the guy for drinks after work a few days later and he showed up at her office the following day with flowers which caught her off-guard and I said she absolutely had to put an end to it. When she wouldn't I was out. I had to stand by what I had demanded was my boundary.

 

So I went no-contact Thanksgiving week. As much as anything I needed to step away from this 4-year situation to get perspective, it had been so toxic at times that I couldn't see the forest for the trees any longer. I read hundreds of messages on the forums here which was great support and I held strong, I never contacted her once (nor her me) from Thanksgiving 2012 until the end of the year, so a little over a month. I won't claim it was incredibly easy, no will I claim that I didn't Google her every now and then to see if she re-surfaced, but she isn't on Facebook or anything, so that made it easier.

 

So, it's Jan 3 2013, about 5 weeks after I last had contact with her and I won't lie, I was hoping she would reach out back to me, we were so close for so many years, really on and off for almost 7 years in a relationship but in a true one for the last 4 years. Meanwhile I was trying to better myself in all the usual ways, getting out, working out hard, etc. But deep down I was still keeping the light on for her, which I know wasn't especially healthy.

 

Back to Jan 3rd, I'm on LinkedIn, which I use to keep track of former co-workers and she and I used to be connected on there but un-friended on there a while back during a fight. In the corner of the screen it says "People you may know" and it has her picture. Except it's not her name. Her name is, say "XXXXX XXXXX" but not it says "XXXXX YYYYYY" - her last name is different. WTF??

 

I pull up her law firm's website and sure as sh*t, she has a differently last name listed.

 

Screw NC, I pick up the phone after 5 weeks and call her in her office. First words out of my mouth "Did you get married?" She pauses for a few seconds, "Yes, I did."

 

Blown away. So the guy she went to drinks with, the law professor, is the guy she married. She said they just fell madly in love and got married over the holidays. She said "I told you I wanted to be married!". I couldn't believe it.

 

She isn't some random 20-year old starry-eyed girl, she is a 30's attorney in a major city and someone that had been part of my life for a long time.

 

I asked her what her friends and family thought and if he had met her family and she didn't say anything about the friends but said the family said "Well, we never know what to expect with you so it's no surprise!" I can't imagine anyone, no matter how in love the two fo them are, would think just getting married after after a few weeks was a wise decision. Sure, it sounds romantic, but really? He's 40 and has been married before and I think has a high-school aged son that lives across the country with his mom (his ex-wife).

 

During the entire 13 minutes that I talked to her before I cut the conversation short, I couldn't even believe what I was hearing. "Are you pregnant?" I ask, figuring it would almost make sense then? She said "No, but that's certainly on the table." - not that I would really expect her to answer that truthfully.

 

I shouldn't care, I could have married her and I choose not to. I set boundaries and she blew past them. But it still really hurt. I think I had read enough on here that I thought maybe after a few weeks of NC she might come around after missing that connection we had but her meeting someone and getting married? That was the last thing I would ever have expected.

 

After I hung up the phone there were a bunch of questions I still had that I wish I could have asked - why no engagement? She had never been married before and was begging me to propose to her so she could be engaged and was excited at the idea, but after knowing a guy for a month, why would you just get married without even an engagement? Just doesn't make sense, unless you are knocked up or something.

 

So I obsessed about it for a day and learned everything I could about this guy, his whole background, where he lives and what he paid for his house, everyone that lived at his address with him (several younger 30's girlfriends it seems), etc. Eventually I realized that wasn't so healthy, but I think I was just so blown away by it that I had to fill in all the blanks somehow.

 

Anyway, since I started this thread I thought I'd update it with what happened after just a month. Any feedback would be mucho appreciated, still having a hard time getting my head around this. Not that it matters, she's dead and gone as far as I'm concerned, but just floored that she met some dude and was full-on married a month later.

Edited January 8, 2013 by dhcp

[Woggle]

It looks you dodged a bullet. It sounds like she wanted to get married more than she wanted to be with you. I understand wanting to marry somebody you are in love with but what is the purpose of wanting to marry for it's own sake?