Author Woggle Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 OK...so I'm kinda curious here too, and I must be one of the few long time posters here that don't have any "history" with Woggle (that I cared enough to remember, at least). Woggle...if you know this kind of thing is a "trigger" for you...why did you read it? Why did you post it? What did you hope to gain with either action? And more importantly...what are you doing to help yourself work through how you feel about all of this? Because ignoring something doesn't make it any less real.
drifter777 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Since anyone can get a domain and publish their own blog you simply cannot take them all to heart. For every Peggy Drexler there's several experts who takes the opposite position. All that matters is the way YOU feel about issues like this. I think men who cheat are selfish scumbags. I think women who cheat are selfish sluts. But that's just me and I can't make you or anyone else see it from my perspective. Lot's of people agree with me, lots of people don't and I don't much care about any of their opinions. 2
veggirl Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Because ignoring something doesn't make it any less real. how do you get through your day to day life. I mean do you make every woman you come across prove to you that she is not an evil man hater? 2
Owl Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) Because ignoring something doesn't make it any less real. What did reading it SOLVE for you? And this solves your problems how? Actually, your answer was basically ignoring all of the questions I'd asked. What are you doing to help yourself deal with everything? You can't change the world, you can't change others...all you can do is change how you react to them. I wanted to add...what does actively seeking this out and focusing on it do? I get that ignoring it doesn't make it go away...but focusing on it is making what positive outcome for you? What are you changing? Edited October 16, 2012 by Owl 1
nofool4u Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 This article pretty much ruined my day before I left this morning and I need to do something to get myself back up before I come home today. Dr. Peggy Drexler: The Scarlet Manifesto: The Rise of the Adulterous Woman I feel like sending Dr. Peggy Drexler an email saying, "thank you so much for your article. Because of it I have made the decision to never marry ever again, and will advise all my friends the same. thank you so much!" 1
Mme. Chaucer Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Woggle...if you know this kind of thing is a "trigger" for you...why did you read it? Why did you post it? What did you hope to gain with either action? And, not even read what was actually written, but intentionally "misunderstand" the article in order to use it to promote your sick and hateful bias against women. AND, to use the inflammatory title to your thread, "Do MOST women agree with this?" How many dozens, or maybe even hundreds of times to you throw this putrid bait out here to try to start some gender bashing? While all the time behaving like a kicked dog about it? Why don't you just own your hate like the other misogynists who spend their time trying to trash women here? Fellowship with your own kind, dude. 1
Mme. Chaucer Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 I have just returned from a long road trip and I do a lot of good thinking while driving. I was considering how STUPID so many of the posts here make the posters appear to be. Gender roles, sexism, etc. are EXTREMELY interesting and piquant subjects for discussion today. They are SUPER fun to think about and talk about. Some people are making intense efforts to use gender neutral speech, or to raise their children free from gender stereotypes. I'm not saying that's the way it "should" be, but I AM saying that it's all food for thought and interesting discussion. The premise of this particular article is that "adultery" was pretty much a male prerogative. The "Scarlett Letter" of "A" was not assigned to ANY cheating man in days gone by; it was reserved for ADULTERESSES. It is not promoting a positive value judgement about cheating. For Christ's sake. Can some of you not even engage your brains on an intellectual level without going into squirming fetus mode when some of your "safe" concepts are challenged? No? How boring and pathetic.
Author Woggle Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 And, not even read what was actually written, but intentionally "misunderstand" the article in order to use it to promote your sick and hateful bias against women. AND, to use the inflammatory title to your thread, "Do MOST women agree with this?" How many dozens, or maybe even hundreds of times to you throw this putrid bait out here to try to start some gender bashing? While all the time behaving like a kicked dog about it? Why don't you just own your hate like the other misogynists who spend their time trying to trash women here? Fellowship with your own kind, dude. Because I genuinely do want to believe that most women don't think like this. I don't want to be one of those woman hating men but when I read stuff like this what other conclusions can I come to.
Mme. Chaucer Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Because I genuinely do want to believe that most women don't think like this. I don't want to be one of those woman hating men but when I read stuff like this what other conclusions can I come to. You mean "stuff" that challenges people to consider the way gender roles have been shifting in our culture and the ramifications of that? A very rudimentary discussion of an intellectual concept is too much for you to deal with? You would probably die a slow and painful death if you ever took a lower level university philosophy course, or even sociology, if a simple article like this explodes your brain so badly. You just want to read Hallmark cards, then? Because truly lowbrow fake pablum is all you are equipped to deal with? 1
Author Woggle Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 If you can't see that this is a subtle you go girl towards female cheaters I don't know what to say. 1
Mme. Chaucer Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 If you can't see that this is a subtle you go girl towards female cheaters I don't know what to say. Lame, lame, lame. It's not. Grown up, intelligent people with good minds DON'T "you go, girl" about adultery. They are capable of discussing the changing role of the concept of ADULTERY in society as it dovetails with the changing roles of men and women; husbands and wives. THAT is what this article is trying to discuss. Did you ever read "Anna Karinina" by Leo Tolstoy? "Madame Bovary" by Flaubert? "The Scarlett Letter" by Hawthorne? I'm sure you haven't - and that if you did, you'd say that they were all about "YOU GO, GIRL!!!" Because you don't seem capable of understanding that smart people far away from you, thinking and talking about a subject and all of its far reaching ramifications, don't have a freaking thing to do with you or with ruining happy marriages.
Author Woggle Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 Fine. Because other men have cheated on women I got a taste of my own medicine and I have no right to complain because they only did what men have done for years. Is everybody happy now?
Mme. Chaucer Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Fine. Because other men have cheated on women I got a taste of my own medicine and I have no right to complain because they only did what men have done for years. Is everybody happy now? WTF are you talking about? Here, let me help you get it. A quote from the "you go girl" article: I am not advocating for being unfaithful. Good sex is important but so is being in a solid, trusting relationship. Choices can't be impulsive or made haphazardly; they need to come out of who you are and what you desire and how you aim to conduct your life. The article is talking about equality. Men and women are having affairs at about the same level. Women are not deemed to be social pariahs any more if they do have an affair in the current Western world - which has been the case for men for all of modern history up until this time. It is not promoting affair-having. It's just equalizing. Women don't need to wear a scarlet letter or commit suicide because they do what has been "normal" for men for centuries. It doesn't mean it's Okay or good to do it - it means that it's appropriate that society's response to affairs should be similar whether it's a husband or a wife who is having one. Every married INDIVIDUAL and couple has a lot of responsibility for maintaing their relationship with their spouse. Maintenance of the marriage used to be the woman's role. Do you have any ability to look at ANYTHING objectively? 1
Author Woggle Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 I think the response should be similiar but I don't think it should be promoted in either gender. I have stopped associating with certain men because of it but when I was cheated on I still was told I deserved it and yes I have actually had women tell me that it was just payback for what other men did. I believe it is wrong for either gender to lie to their spouse and betray them in this way. Honest open relationships are fine but cheating is wrong across the board. What is so wrong with that view?
Mme. Chaucer Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 I believe it is wrong for either gender to lie to their spouse and betray them in this way. Honest open relationships are fine but cheating is wrong across the board. What is so wrong with that view? Don't play dumb with me, please. I believe you know that I absolutely share that view. That does not render me incapable of discussing the role of ADULTERY in American culture objectively.
Author Woggle Posted October 16, 2012 Author Posted October 16, 2012 Don't play dumb with me, please. I believe you know that I absolutely share that view. That does not render me incapable of discussing the role of ADULTERY in American culture objectively. Maybe you share that view but many women don't. I was accused of slut shaming my ex for divorcing her over it.
Ninja'sHusband Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) WTF are you talking about? Here, let me help you get it. A quote from the "you go girl" article: The article is talking about equality. Men and women are having affairs at about the same level. Women are not deemed to be social pariahs any more if they do have an affair in the current Western world - which has been the case for men for all of modern history up until this time. It is not promoting affair-having. It's just equalizing. Women don't need to wear a scarlet letter or commit suicide because they do what has been "normal" for men for centuries. It doesn't mean it's Okay or good to do it - it means that it's appropriate that society's response to affairs should be similar whether it's a husband or a wife who is having one. Every married INDIVIDUAL and couple has a lot of responsibility for maintaing their relationship with their spouse. Maintenance of the marriage used to be the woman's role. Do you have any ability to look at ANYTHING objectively? To me that last bit with her saying that she doesn't condone affair is a direct contradiction to what she says just before that: Is this a good thing? It sure is. For these women, marriage is important, but it doesn't define them. If it doesn't last, they won't be destroyed. For a woman, the ability to realize that she's not happy -- and she's going to do something about it, rather than be passive and accept whatever comes -- is empowering. She is claiming her right to feel fulfilled in relationships and sex, regardless of what society may expect of her. If that isn't justifying an affair, saying "You Go Girl!" I don't know what is. There's no mention of using the honest options of communicating *clearly* or just leaving. I think she even implies that women's affairs are more justified: Women tended to cheat because they were unhappy in a relationship or felt their partner didn't hold similar sexual beliefs. For men, the biggest factor was sexual excitement. That is, women are far choosier about why, and with whom, they cheat. Personally, I don't buy her sudden backtrack statement at the end of the article. Inspite of her claims of it not being a "victory", the whole article has a celebratory air for me...which is why she had to put both disclaimers in there. She knew she was sending mixed messages. As for the earlier comment about misogynists, I think anyone who's just been cheated on is going to have trouble not hating the other gender at least temporarily. Frankly I wouldn't blame any temporary BW misandronists on this site. Having your family ripped apart by lies and betrayal and then hearing countless similar stories is enough to drive anyone into a fireball of hatred for a while. Edited October 17, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband
freestyle Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Fercryinoutloud, Wogs----change the channel, already. You're holding the remote. You choose what you plug into. It's just as unfair to make a blanket generalization about woman...(or men, for that matter)......... .....as it is to presume that everyone who lives on the Jersey Shore behaves like the people on the show. 2
ThatJustHappened Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Some people think cheating is ok. Some people are racist. Some people think it's cool to watch Honey Boo Boo. Just don't surround yourself with those people and you'll be ok. OP, you sound like a conspiracy theorist. Relax. It's up to you whether or not you trust your wife..no article or online forum is going to change anything she does..she's not part of a herd, she's an individual human being with individual thoughts and feelings. You should really stop putting so much faith into random articles. The woman who wrote that article is one out of a billion human beings on the planet. In the grand scheme of things, she's not very important. 1
Spark1111 Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Margaret Mead predicted this in the late '50s. Yes, with equality comes women abusing their power the way men always had: more infidelilty, more affairs, more divorces initiated by women. But so what? I could worry about this, I could worry about nuclear obliteration, I could worry about China taking over the world! I choose to concentrate on my wonderful husband; my amazing marraige; happy family and that little grandson I soooooo adore. I take life one day at a time. If that proves overwhelming, I take life one hour, one minute at a time. You should too. Is it all good NOW, TODAY, THIS HOUR, THIS MINUTE? Concentrate and be grateful for the here and now. That is all we have. That is all any of us have. STOP making yourself is what ifs? Your worry and anxiety are robbing you of all the joy around you now. You can't get back these minutes. Don't be a fool worrying about what may be while you are ignorant and oblivious to all the joy surrounding you now. You never get it back. Once it is gone, it is gone. 2
Ninja'sHusband Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) It's one thing to tell Woggle to focus on the here and now, but it's another thing to do it. I don't think he wants to distrust women any more than I do. He's trying to understand the mindset, to piece together what happened. You don't just let go of this kind of stuff suddenly. Everyone here says over and over it take 2-5 years. Anyway, I echo the sentiment that the author of the article doesn't represent every woman on the planet. It's really hard to have faith in that if you've only experienced one kind...but I guess we just have to suck it up and make the best choices we can for the rest of our lives. I see\feel both side of this argument here. I can totally empathize with Woggle, I actually struggle with the same negative thoughts almost every day. =\ It's not like you can just turn it off suddenly. I'm giving myself time. It might be happiness wasted, time lost, but it is what it is and a recovery period is normal. He needs time to truly reconcile and rebuild trust. I need time out of the dating world and to not jump into an unhealthy rebound relationship where I'm judging my new GF unfairly. I don't take Woggle as a hateful a-hole. I see him as someone who is badly hurt, confused, trying to figure the world out after it's been turned upside down. He came here for help, asking for women's perspective. He doesn't need you to be defensive and launch nuclear missiles at him. He needs to be consoled and reassured. Not all women are the same. Maybe some women can share some stories to the contrary of the article he linked? Something? Hell, I could use the same kind of treatment I'm recommending for him Edited October 17, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband
Author Woggle Posted October 17, 2012 Author Posted October 17, 2012 Thank you Ninja. I don't want to be negative towards women and I actually debated for a few days about posting this article but in the end I decided to because it was stewing in my head and if I didn't get it off my chest I would drive myself insane. I know I tend to see things with my own filter but that article clearly had a you go girl attitude and the few women posting on THAT BOARD who were actually fair and not man haters agree with me. One even it is this crap that gives feminism a bad rap.
Author Woggle Posted October 17, 2012 Author Posted October 17, 2012 I don't dismiss the negative experiences of women but the fact is that they get more empathy and are given much more leeway on this board than men who vent. Men can't say anything on here without somebody getting bent out of shape and calling us misogynists. I sometimes both genders who have been through stuff would find common ground but good luck getting some women not to see all men as the enemy. To any woman on here if what I say does not apply to you then don't take it personally because I am not talking about you and I am sure most men here aren't either. We go through things and deal with relationship drama just like women do and we have a right to vent on a relationship board. I don't wallow in hatred but I don't see why I should shut up about gender issues.
Pyro Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 Again I ask why you even looked at that article to begin with. You have a disease but you continue to feed it. Define insanity...... Maybe you should be locked up for a bit.
Author Woggle Posted October 17, 2012 Author Posted October 17, 2012 I don't use the term misogynists. And you....YOU get more support than any man on this board. I am not some women...I am me. I have a daughter, a mother, a sister, a niece, a grandmother, cousins who do not see men as anything other than men.... but there goes that lump again. I take it personally because some day my daughter is going to run across a man who is ill equipped to deal with a real relationship out of fear and she will get lumped into some pond of scum because she has a vagina. Don't shut up. Scream it from the roof tops and this is where you should do it. But if you believe for one minute that it is not creeping into your life and your future with your wife....you are in bigger trouble than anyone here can hold your hand and lead you out of. I never lumped you in and I do appreciate the support I have gotten but I know how much of the rest of the world is. I know you also have men you are close to so how you feel if one day they run into a woman who plays a game with them then excuses it because it is time for men to taste their own medicine even if these men have done nothing but treat women well? Is this what you want for the men you care about?
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