Homosexuality Debate Goes Sour with GF

[Mateo A.]

My girlfriend and I just had a huge debate about homosexuality that went sour. I won't say who supports which side because I don't want anyones personal opinions getting in the way of who's right or wrong. I'm not even sure if it's a matter of right and wrong.

 

Our debate went on for a good couple of hours before things got heated. I won't go into too much detail but she basically insulted my intelligence by attempting to discredit me and my sources of information. She went on to say my personal thoughts were stopping me from thinking rationally about the topic, which I assure you was not the case. I was only firmly defending my position in the argument.

 

Her comments naturally upset me to the point of retaliating with my own personal attack and things just continued to go downhill from there. What makes matters worse is, this whole argument happened over Skype, so after my retaliation she cussed me out and hung up. Feeling no remorse, I typed a long essay for her to read the next time she logs in.

 

I'm not sure if I feel no remorse because I won the debate, or because I'm ready to break up with her for not sharing the same views on homosexuality. Is that a ridiculous reason to break up?

 

I only feel a tiny bit guilty for treating my girlfriend like a debate partner. I don't think I've actually done anything wrong, yet I still feel the need to apologize profusely because she's so upset. Any thoughts on what I should do? It's really late. I kind of just want to go to bed and deal with it in the morning.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Mateo A.

[kae]

views = values

 

But above all you need to be able to debate nicely and keep it clean. did you do that??? to me, that matters more!

[Star Gazer]

I'm not sure if I feel no remorse because I won the debate,

 

YOU think you won the debate. It's highly doubtful she agrees.

 

She merely attempted to discredit your sources. You somehow took that as an insult of your intelligence, and responded with a personal retaliatory attack.

 

If I were her, I'd end the relationship on that basis alone, notwithstanding the fact there's a conflict with values.

 

What did your essay say?

[Emilia]

It is difficult to have a sustained calm and rational debate when you feel passionate about something.

 

As I got older, I have learned that to me in terms of values what I find important is what either directly affects my relationship or specific issues that are important to me. Of course homosexuality could be one of those issues for you because for whatever reason you feel strongly about aspects of it, to me it would be something else.

 

However, if it's just the argument that bugs you, I suggest that the two of you make up and you come to some kind of an agreement on how debates should be handled in the future. It's a learning curve. Discussing sources is part of debating by the way. Discrediting them is pretty much the norm.

 

It isn't realistic to expect another person to have the same values and views on every single issue, you need to pick your battles.

[yongyong]

I am guessing you dislike gays and she was trying to tell you it was wrong?

[january2011]

I agree with Emilia. You've got to figure out how important it is to be right when you disagree with your girlfriend. Is it worth losing the relationship over? Do you want to die on this hill?

 

It sounds like you didn't fight fair and that does not bode well for the longer-term. I think that it's okay to disagree with your partner, but to disagree so strongly that you make personal attacks just to "win" the argument is rather petty in a romantic relationship. You're not running for president. Winning an argument against your partner is not going to keep you warm at night.

 

I think it is worth working out what your trigger topics are and be careful of allowing the conversation to escalate into what you have now. Homosexuality sounds like it is one of your trigger topics.

 

If debating general topics is going to be part of the relationship, then you do need to ensure that both people fight fair. Though I'd say it sounds exhausting to be in a relationship where both partners are heavily into debating topics that don't have any direct relevance to their relationship. I guess some people enjoy the intellectual stimulation, but I'd find it too much in a personal relationship, especially if it's less a friendly chat and more like debate class.

[ascendotum]

"It isn't realistic to expect another person to have the same values and views on every single issue, you need to pick your battles."

I'd agree with this quote from someone above. To me it seems crazy to break up with her for not sharing the same views on homosexuality, unless one of you has a number of close gay friends/family. Who is right or wrong on this matter, is not going to really effect the happiness you have for each other and the other values and qualities you both bring together for a solid relationship. Its kind of bad that this discussion had to end up in debate mode and drag on for a couple of hours...you are obviously both passionate about your views on the topic....but should it be a deal breaker when its irrelevant (assumption) to your life together.

[Leigh 87]

My partner is sort of racist. Which I am normally strongly against... but he is not racist to the point where he would not have a black friend and regard them as equals to him. He just wants our country to be mostly white people, rather than all other ethnicitys' becoming more common than white people.

 

 

My parents and I are really pro gay and the OPPOSITE to racist; inclusive of all cultures, whatever phrase you would use for the opposite to racist.

 

Yet my partner gets a little grossed out at the notion of gay people, and has negative connotations about homosexuality. But is not going to gay bash.

 

He does however, feel uncofmortable with and have no gay friends.

 

I am fine with my predicament and would not break up with him unless I got a very good gay friend, and he refused to be polite to them. That would be a definate deal breaker:sick:

[veggirl]

YOU think you won the debate. It's highly doubtful she agrees.

 

She merely attempted to discredit your sources. You somehow took that as an insult of your intelligence, and responded with a personal retaliatory attack.

 

If I were her, I'd end the relationship on that basis alone, notwithstanding the fact there's a conflict with values.

 

What did your essay say?

 

well she also cussed him out, so she doesn't sound completely innocent.

 

OP how did this go on for HOURS? geepers. Usually on subjects like this, you aren't going to change someones mind, so I'm not sure why you would argue with your girlfriend for hours about it. Did you just learn her views and vice versa on this or something?

 

I wouldn't date a guy who was homophobic or pro-life, so I don't think it's wrong to break up over views like this, usually though if it's a dealbreaker it comes up pretty early on and you can get a guage through over convos what their ideas are.

 

So are you just upset it turned into a giant fight? Can you guys agree to not talk about that? Or do you both now look at one another differently cause of your views?

[xpaperxcutx]

Couples with differing views and opinions should in general have an open mind when it comes to the other's feelings. It does not matter who is right or wrong, because one does not enforce one's ideals onto another and expect them to accept wholeheartedly. They don't have to accept it but they should be understanding.

 

My boyfriend and I have opposing views but I do not fight with him nor do I attack from a personal front just so I can say I "won".That is downright disrespectful and selfish. From the sounds of things, if you truly value her or the relationship, you wouldnt let something as silly as your pride get in the way.

[Woggle]

I could never in a million years be with a homophobe. My gay uncle was pretty much the only person that showed any love towards me growing up and for that I will always defend gay.

[CarrieT]

There are some core beliefs that can make or break a relationship and I feel strongly that homosexuality is one of them.

 

I can and have dated men of opposing political parties, but we generally had the same beliefs when it came to abortion and gay rights.

 

To me, it would be a deal breaker because it would definitely come up in the future on how children are raised.

[Mrlonelyone]

As others have said you have to choose between winning an argument and being happy. Is this something worth breaking up over?

 

Consider the following love story. James Carville and Mary Matalin.

 

Dear Abby: How do Mary Matalin and James Carville stay married without homicide? - latimes.com

 

One ran Clinton's 1992 Campaign, the other ran Bush's 1992 campaign. Then in 1993 they got married. As of next year if they got divorced after 20 years, no one would say it was a failure. 20 good years and two or three children Vs being so rigid and needing agreement...and getting nothing.

[Mateo A.]

Well, first of all, I'm not Catholic, nor do I follow any organized religion. That's the funniest assumption I've read so far.

 

And as I predicted, peoples personal opinions on homosexuality would make them paint me in a bad light, even without knowing which side I'm on (and I'm still not telling because it's insignificant to the problem at hand).

 

For the record, I never insulted her. I don't even think it was a "personal attack" because I was only addressing what she had said to me, in a rather calm manner at that.

 

Actually, it wasn't a personal attack, I should've never used the words. I felt that way at the time because of how she reacted to it. But I thought about it this morning and I was only furthering the debate, not "attacking" her. Even the essay I wrote afterwards wasn't insulting or an attack. It explained how just because I was disagreeing with her, doesn't mean I didn't understand what she was saying, or wasn't open-minded to it. I then went on to say:

 

Your explanations conflict with a lot of other peoples explanations and they can't all be right, which is why we're debating in the first place. You can't be mad at me for firmly defending my position in the argument. I wasn't angry, I wasn't yelling at you. It was a debate so I was just being stern.

 

I go on and on like this for a couple of paragraphs, basically saying how I wasn't the one who hung up and that I was waiting and ready for her to tell me I was wrong again. She had already logged off before I got the message to her.

 

I never tried to discredit her sources because I knew I couldn't do it without sounding insulting, so I just spoke on the information she gave me. I didn't call her stubborn or assume her personal thoughts were getting in the way of the facts, like she did with me. I think it's a pretty justified reason to be upset. However, I didn't lash out on her or make personal attacks on her like I made it seem earlier, I simply gave my opinion and backed them with facts.

 

But above all you need to be able to debate nicely and keep it clean. did you do that???

 

Yes. Cleaner than I would've normally kept it if I were debating with someone on Youtube (lol).

 

She merely attempted to discredit your sources. You somehow took that as an insult of your intelligence, and responded with a personal retaliatory attack.

 

Well, no, not "merely." Discrediting my sources is one thing, discrediting me as a person is another. You can say my sources are dumb but when you call me dumb, that's a personal insult. So yes, my intelligence was insulted.

 

I'm not saying I'm innocent either, I'm just telling you what happened.

 

What did your essay say?

 

That's not important. Plus, I already revealed most of it above.

 

However, if it's just the argument that bugs you, I suggest that the two of you make up and you come to some kind of an agreement on how debates should be handled in the future. It's a learning curve.

 

What bugs me is how it went from a debate to her cussing me out and hanging up on me, leaving me to feel guilty when all I did was keep the debate going. I disagree with her views but I treated her with respect. Talk about fair! :/

 

I am guessing you dislike gays and she was trying to tell you it was wrong?

 

Again, not important.

 

It sounds like you didn't fight fair and that does not bode well for the longer-term. I think that it's okay to disagree with your partner, but to disagree so strongly that you make personal attacks just to "win" the argument is rather petty in a romantic relationship. You're not running for president. Winning an argument against your partner is not going to keep you warm at night.

 

What "it sounds like" and what it is are two different situations. There's no way to prove it to you without share our whole debate but I fought fairly. I didn't bring anything into the discussion that wasn't already there. I stayed calm and addressed everything she said in a polite fashion. It wasn't about winning or losing, it was about reasoning and sharing information.

 

OP how did this go on for HOURS? geepers. Usually on subjects like this, you aren't going to change someones mind, so I'm not sure why you would argue with your girlfriend for hours about it. Did you just learn her views and vice versa on this or something?

 

It went on for hours because my girlfriend is still kind of on the fence about the topic--neutral, wish-washy--so her views reflected that. And yes, it was the first time actually discussing it as well.

 

So are you just upset it turned into a giant fight? Can you guys agree to not talk about that? Or do you both now look at one another differently cause of your views?

 

As I said before, I don't feel much remorse. I'm indifferent. I'm not even mad, or worried about her breaking up with me. I'm more concerned about how she's taking the whole thing.

 

I don't look at her any differently because I kind of already knew her position on the matter. However, I know she's looking at me differently now because she's seen a new side to me and even said something like "I didn't know that about you."

 

I don't know if we can just not talk about it. I don't want any topic to be considered taboo or forbidden, that's ridiculous. How do we grow as a couple, as individuals even, if we can't talk about everything?

[Pompom]

Is that a ridiculous reason to break up?

Unless one of you is gay, yes, it is.

I have decided not to choose my interpersonal relationships according to disagreements on topics that only remotely concern us. I also avoid subjects that I know may go out of hand.

Apologize for upsetting her, but not for standing by her views, and offer her to bury the matter and not discuss it again. While one of you is probably anti-gay and not keeping up with modern times and the valid equality issue, debating the love life of others should not cost you your own.

[january2011]

Mateo, what are you looking for here? Are you looking for us to validate you and help you justify your behaviour? Or are you looking for more debate partners? Perhaps more advice on a way forward (whatever that may be)?

 

I don't care which "side" you were on (I really don't), but the fact that at least one of you took this too far is enough to suggest that it wasn't a fair fight.

 

It still comes down to, do you actually want to save this relationship? Or do you just care that she's looking at you sideways now regardless of whether the relationship is saved or not?

 

Again, what do you want from us? I ask this sincerely, without judgement. And I'm surprised at what seems to be a very defensive tone in your subsequent post. If it's not there, then, my bad. I'm not here to debate what did/didn't happen or try to apportion blame. But it would be helpful if you could clarify what it is you're are looking for with your thread.

[CarrieT]

Mateo, you keep bringing up "sources."

 

The genesis of the debate and who is right or wrong is irrelevant. I am not a Christian (but am dating a Lutheran) and can be given all sorts of "sources" as to the veracity or truth of the bible. It is meaningless to me because of my core belief structure. But we have learned to move beyond that because our core, philosophical beliefs jive; i.e., treat others well and harm none.

 

Whether or not your GF is right based on "sources" is meaningless. You each have your core philosophical belief on the subject that no amount of sources is going to change either of what you two believe. So you have to decide if your values and ethics are in line enough to continue a relationship, regardless of "sources."

[Quiet Storm]

It is possible that she is viewing you differently, but that is her right.

 

Not sure which side you were on, but I can see how it could be an important issue for her if she was thinking about eventually marrying you or having children with you.

 

If my husband has expressed that he was against gays, or didn't believe they should have equal rights, or felt that they were going to hell or something along those lines, I would have probably thought "what will he do if one of our children is gay?"

 

She may be questioning your compatibility, and rightly so.

[Jane2011]

This is a tough situation. I can see myself not wanting to be with someone who is 180 degrees from me on certain things, like views on homosexuality, etc. But, if that's the only thing that you guys disagree so vehemently on, maybe it's just a matter of agreeing to disagree.

 

I used to occasionally have debates with my ex-boyfriend. Sometimes it'd go on for hours like what you're talking about. Often, the arguments were resolved by just saying "You're not going to change my mind." (agreeing to disagree). Other times, both of us would, after a long time arguing with each other, soften our positions a bit, thus appeasing each other.

 

I'm dating a guy who's a teacher, and I'm a teacher too; we don't "debate," per se (we never have; although I've only been dating him for two months now), but we do differ in teaching philosophy in some (not all) ways, and we've had slight "ehhh, I disagree..." or "I don't see it that way" or "I don't do it that way" conversations because we have different styles and approaches. Most of the time we are softened in the way we handle it, but I don't think it's an effort. His way of doing things isn't 180 degrees from my way, nor is my way 180 degrees from his. We both see why the other does things the way he/she does. So, it hasn't been a problem.

 

I really don't want to debate with someone I'm dating. If I disagree with him about things, I think I'd rather just think in my mind...I disagree, and not argue with him about it. But I can see how it happens. It could happen in the future.

[Mateo A.]

Mateo, what are you looking for here? Are you looking for us to validate you and help you justify your behaviour? Or are you looking for more debate partners? Perhaps more advice on a way forward (whatever that may be)?

 

What are you insinuating exactly? I'm looking for outside, unbiased opinions on the dispute my girlfriend and I had, and I'm getting that so far. I'm only further explaining the situation to paint a better picture of what happened in order to receive more advice. I'm also answering questions.

 

I don't care which "side" you were on (I really don't), but the fact that at least one of you took this too far is enough to suggest that it wasn't a fair fight.

 

What makes you think I was addressing you? I wasn't. Neither of us are entirely innocent. As I said before, this isn't about right or wrong. It's a discussion about views and values and whether or not it's important for you and your partner to share the same ones.

 

It still comes down to, do you actually want to save this relationship? Or do you just care that she's looking at you sideways now regardless of whether the relationship is saved or not?

 

If I knew what I wanted to happen, I wouldn't have started this thread looking for second opinions. I'll let you know when I've made a decision.

 

Again, what do you want from us? I ask this sincerely, without judgement. And I'm surprised at what seems to be a very defensive tone in your subsequent post. If it's not there, then, my bad. I'm not here to debate what did/didn't happen or try to apportion blame. But it would be helpful if you could clarify what it is you're are looking for with your thread.

 

I'm not being defensive, not purposely at least. And I already told you what I wanted.

[CarboniteCammy]

so, are you asking if you should break up with her because your debate went badly?

 

with out seeing exactly what was said in the context of how it was said, it's impossible to pass judgment on a conversation of which none of us were a party.

 

You've admitted that you both were at fault, so are you just saying that you're upset with her because she took things personally?

 

If this is a hot button issue and it's not something that directly affects your relationship (as in, I assume that neither of you are gay) then it's pointless to fight about it just for the sake of fighting.

 

some people are not able to debate with out getting personally involved.

[Mateo A.]

I agree with a lot of what is being said about agreeing to disagree. However, the truth isn't just some vague, imaginary thing. It exists in accordance to reality. Bibles aren't always truth sources either. I think it's important couples agree on what's fact and what's fiction, or they're always gonna be bumping heads. I don't want my relationship to be a passive one--us just agreeing with each other to avoid an argument. I want to be on the same page as my partner. Not with everything obviously, just with the subjects that matter in life. Is that wishful thinking?

Edited October 12, 2012 by Mateo A.

[serial muse]

I agree with a lot of what is being said about agreeing to disagree. However, the truth isn't just some vague, imaginary thing. It exists in accordance to reality. Bibles aren't always truth sources either. I think it's important couples agree on what's fact and what's fiction, or they're always gonna be bumping heads. I don't want my relationship to be a passive one--us just agreeing with each other to avoid an argument. I want to be on the same page as my partner. Not with everything obviously, just with the subjects that matter in life. Is that wishful thinking?

 

Hm. I'm not sure that I entirely understand what you're saying either. I agree that who took what stance on homosexuality per se isn't really the central issue here. The real issue is about how you and she tolerate differences of opinion. It sounds like what you're saying is that you're not really comfortable with agreeing to disagree. Perhaps that's because, instead of thinking of these differences as opinions, you've brought it into the world of fact vs. fiction - and of sources. Conflicting beliefs in absolutes are going to be a lot harder to navigate.

 

In an earlier post you said that she discredited your sources...but here you say that "it's important couples agree on what's fact and what's fiction". That seems to suggest that sources are fundamentally important to you, and that you don't think hers are factual (even if you didn't discredit her sources outright). I highly doubt that if you expressed a similar idea to her, she didn't "get" what you were really saying.

 

That said - I think it's reasonable to draw lines in the sand in some places, and bend in others. I want my partner to share certain core values, and agree with me on what's "fact" - in certain arenas. In others, I'm willing to see things as a matter of opinion, and to agree to disagree. As you say, this works just fine as long as you agree on the subjects "that matter in life"...exactly what those subjects are, though, is of course a matter of opinion.

 

Which brings me to the other thing I found puzzling: you said she's on the fence, neutral, wishy-washy about the topic - but then you said she's discrediting your sources and calling you dumb and so forth. That doesn't sound like someone who's neutral. Can you explain this? Why would she take personally a subject that she hasn't made up her mind about? What is she really taking personally? If you understand that, you might understand what she thinks are the subjects that matter in life...perhaps they aren't exactly the same as yours.

 

And calling you dumb, by the way, is a really crappy thing to do, and she owes you an apology for that one. Personal attacks are never OK.

Edited October 12, 2012 by serial muse

[CarrieT]

In an earlier post you said that she discredited your sources...but here you say that "it's important couples agree on what's fact and what's fiction". That seems to suggest that sources are fundamentally important to you, and that you don't think hers are factual (even if you didn't discredit her sources outright). I highly doubt that if you expressed a similar idea to her, she didn't "get" what you were really saying.

This is a very important point and goes back to what I was referring to regarding the bible and my BF. To me, it is a speculative, historical account by too many people to be factual.

 

This also refers back to what I meant about you constantly referring to "sources" and you are citing the basics of fact and fiction, but for many people, that is fluid and what is fact to some is fiction to others.