Not sure how I feel after WS's affair

[tornandconfused12]

Hi, new here. Over a period of several weeks I began discovering affair details between my WS and his co-worker. The OW is younger than him by a ways and lives with her boyfriend of 6 years, no kids. WS and I have three kids and have been married 20+ years. Their affair became physical at least once that I know of, EA went on for several weeks. I exposed the affair to many people, including the other woman's significant other.

 

Both my WS and I are in individual counseling, no marriage counseling yet. I was already in counseling prior to learning about the affair, dealing with an unrelated issue. WS began therapy after I discovered the affair and went on his own, I didn't say he "had" to or anything like that.

 

Since I discovered the affair my emotions had been on a roller coaster but lately I find myself feeling more apathetic than anything else, losing interest in working things out the more I find out. I love him but this has been tiring and way too much drama for me.

 

Aside from the affair, there are a few things bugging me and I'm not sure if they really should be or if I'm overreacting to everything at this point....

 

WS has a female friend he initially met through work (she works elsewhere now) and they keep in touch periodically via email. I met her once about 3 years ago. I found out they still meet up on occasion to chat. The reason I feel suspicious is because WS never told me this information himself. It feels sneaky to me, especially when I've never expressed anything negative about their friendship, jealousy or whatever.

 

WS watches internet porn seemingly every chance he gets. I generally don't have a problem with porn but the frequency and the sneakiness bugs me. Especially when he knows porn isn't a big deal to me. If I fall asleep early, he's looking up porn.....and he has ED issues (past year or so) so it is impacting our sex life which used to be fantastic (was great until the ED issues). The use of porn has only bugged me more since the ED issues cropped up.

 

This might be weird but I've learned WS never mentions me to anyone in conversation. Someone will ask what he did over time off and he'll say he went here and there, did this or that......my name (or "my wife") is never mentioned. I also found out he was telling his female friend (mentioned above) that he owned a motorcycle, in such a way it appeared he was trying to impress her. The motorcycle belonged to me after I inherited it last year (close relative who passed). I've since sold it but when it was mine, his name was never even on the title! He told his friend all these stories about riding it and I know for a fact he only ever rode it once. He'd never been on a motorcycle prior to this so he wasn't comfortable on a bike.....it scared the crap out of him.

 

Lying. I am an honest person and the lying involved with having an affair bugs me more than the affair itself. Of course, I'm not happy about the affair but the lying gets me more than anything. WS never communicated to me he was unhappy, not even once. Perhaps that is pretty common but I feel like I never had a chance to address any issues which may have been my responsibility to fix, at least partially mine.

 

So with the affair, the otherwise secretive behavior, frequent/sneaky use of porn and the ED, and all the lies....well, I'm getting closer all the time to throwing in the towel. In theory I'd like to give him a chance but I find myself feeling disgusted and fed up, like there's no end to his double life and I'll just end up finding out more and more I'll have to deal with. Because in reality, I'm the one who has to deal with it. He got to have "fun" and I got a bomb dropped on my life.

 

I'm past being overly upset about this and I really don't feel that angry anymore. I do feel disgusted and fed up though. Is this a normal reaction? I guess 'normal' is relative but I find lying/sneakiness to be abhorrent and those behaviors alone make me feel like I'm dealing with a little kid instead of a man in his 50's.

 

We're in the process of buying another house, one I can afford with my own income, and more and more I don't want him to move with me. The problem is we're buying a house in a short sale situation and it may take longer than the average purchase.

 

Moreover, why do people (men or women) get married if they want to screw around? I know it can't be a straightforward answer but I feel like he wadded up the last over 20 years of my life, along with the lives of our three kids, and chucked it away with no regard for anyone but himself. I also can't believe he cares about these women (platonic and otherwise) with all the lies he tells. It seems like he's just on a one-man mission seeking out porn, an affair, and a secret life.

[BetrayedH]

Sounds like you're in a pretty healthy state of mind to me.

 

As for the apathy, I've heard it called the Plain of Lethal Flatness. I stopped giving a crap about anything for a while. To be brief, it is normal and it will pass as one of the regular stages. Just don't let other parts of your life suffer as one big problem at a time is usually enough.

 

Your head sounds like it is on straight to me. You just have a big decision to make, the same crappy one we were all handed.

 

As for the new house, it will likely be a relatively non-factor in a divorce. They typically just find a way to divide the marital assets and liabilities.

 

Good luck with your choice. Might be a good idea to consult an attorney to better understand your options.

Edited October 8, 2012 by BetrayedH

[Ninja'sHusband]

The lying is certainly the worst part. WSs have a really hard time getting that... I agree the porn is an issue if he's having ED. A guy can wear himself out and have nothing left. I think male desire decreases by half after every orgasm, at least until a day or two later. Some really disturbing flags here with the bike thing, him not mentioning you etc. I dunno how you can't bring up your SO in everyday life. I've been separated from my for 3 months and I think I'm just now starting to slow down on the "well my wife ...." kinda statements. Your SO is just such a huge part of your life (or should be)...I actually fear how much I'll mention her in a new relationship if I ever get there.

 

It sounds like you've given up on him, which is dangerous for the relationship. When you both give up and stop trying to fix things..usually divorce isn't far behind. Not saying you can fix him, that's impossible for you, he has to do it. All you can do is let him know if he doesn't already know something.

 

I wouldn't blame you if you left him, he has to prove he's making 110% effort to fix things, otherwise...ugh...it's just so impossible. I won't blame you if you stay either though. Only you can say when you've had enough. Sometimes divorce action works for people though, without all the drama of trying to work things out while staying. Sometimes I think I should have done that, but if it had failed...man I would have regretted it...and I know now that I didn't need to be married to that woman anyway. I don't think I would have gotten to that place if I hadn't pushed myself to my utmost limits with her. And just maybe if you stay things will get better I dunno. Sounds like he's not trying that hard from what you've said here. Maybe he's putting effort into some other place that you don't notice as much? Sometimes people misdirect efforts because they don't know what's important to their spouses. What has he been doing to fix things?

[Spark1111]

Whatever you have posted here.......TELL HIM; brutally, honestly, directly.

 

His porn addiction very well could be the cause of his ED. It has been documented medically that this is a very real problem, one only recently being addressed by medical experts. Over visual stimulation of sexual imagery in some men render them useless when with a living, breathing, real life woman in their bed! Sad, no?

 

The lying is just rediculous. Want to be single, be single. Want to flirt anonymously and impress xGFs and co-workers? There is the door. Want to be a 21-year old stud again? Good luck to ya and good bye.

 

Tell him you want a real man as a life partner. You hoped it could be him because you did love him, but if not him, you'd rather be alone or find a good man who cherishes only you to commit to.

 

Tell him you are reluctant to purchase this home with him because of all the lies and disappointments and are thinking of affording it on your own.

[underwater2010]

You are reacting in a normal way. Reconciliation is not for everyone. You have every right, now or later, to say enough is enough. And you are absolutely right the lying is the worst part to me. Then the disrespect of knowing you would have fixed or tried to fix any issues in the marriage given the chance. We have all been there. You are heard. We are here if you need us.

[KathyM]

Sounds like he's going through a midlife crisis and wanting to live like a single person again without giving up the marriage. Can't have it both ways. Time to realize you deserve better than this and not let it continue. He's disrespecting you and the marriage by continuing to flirt with/engage these other women. I'd suggest you strongly consider buying the house in your name only and letting him have his single life that he seems to be pining for, without dragging you along for the ride. The sooner you give him his freedom, the sooner you can find someone who is worthy of and values your love and faithfulness.

[tornandconfused12]

Thanks to all for your responses, I appreciate it a lot. The new house will definitely go to me and he knows that. My RE agent and broker are also aware, generally speaking, the financials may change for the house purchase.....and it may end up being me only. So thankfully that's covered. WS isn't much of a fighter in that way. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he moved back in with his elderly parents for awhile. He's 52 and they're in their early 80's but mom would love nothing more than to have both of their adult children under her roof again. My SIL (WS's older sister, 56yo) is going through a divorce from an adulterer/gambling addict but refused to move back home. WS would not likely turn down the offer even though he can well afford living on his own.

 

The lies get me more than anything. Sure, the idea of what I know they did physically irks the crap out of me but I detest lying above all else. The lying about my father's motorcycle to impress his buddy really p*sses me off. I was already in individual counseling dealing with grief related issues and then I hear about this. It's probably nothing in the whole scheme of things but it makes my blood pressure go up . After my dad's estate was handled and I went to transfer the titles of his car and motorcycle in my name, I asked WS if he also wanted his name on the titles. He said no, that it wasn't a big deal. But apparently it IS enough of a deal to go around telling people the bike belonged to him .

 

The other thing that does really bug me is him never mentioning me to a lot of people. It seems weird and as though I don't matter to him. Looking back it's hard not to think the only reason I've been here is to have the kids and take care of him in this part of his life. It really does seem like he has two lives and he does not want them to intersect.

 

Sometimes I feel like I'm married to a complete stranger and I'm not sure I want to stick around to see if I like the "new guy" or not.....because right now I really don't like him so far.

[tornandconfused12]

Sounds like you're in a pretty healthy state of mind to me.

 

As for the apathy, I've heard it called the Plain of Lethal Flatness. I stopped giving a crap about anything for a while. To be brief, it is normal and it will pass as one of the regular stages. Just don't let other parts of your life suffer as one big problem at a time is usually enough.

 

Your head sounds like it is on straight to me. You just have a big decision to make, the same crappy one we were all handed.

 

As for the new house, it will likely be a relatively non-factor in a divorce. They typically just find a way to divide the marital assets and liabilities.

 

Good luck with your choice. Might be a good idea to consult an attorney to better understand your options.

 

Plain of Lethal Flatness about sums it up! I've never heard of that term but it fits perfectly. I'm taking care of most things but right now I'm not over the edge about him. Most the time I wish he would just go away, the respect I once had for him is definitely waning.

 

I'm definitely keeping the house and WS isn't a fighter in that regard. I also already have divorce papers drawn up and saved to my work computer as I think he's rooted around on my Mac at home. Our finances are such that he could buy a home of his own before we even divorced. But I'm betting he won't and instead will rent or move in with family.

 

Yes, this sure does seem to be a crappy decision I'll end up having to make.

[tornandconfused12]

The lying is certainly the worst part. WSs have a really hard time getting that... I agree the porn is an issue if he's having ED. A guy can wear himself out and have nothing left. I think male desire decreases by half after every orgasm, at least until a day or two later. Some really disturbing flags here with the bike thing, him not mentioning you etc. I dunno how you can't bring up your SO in everyday life. I've been separated from my for 3 months and I think I'm just now starting to slow down on the "well my wife ...." kinda statements. Your SO is just such a huge part of your life (or should be)...I actually fear how much I'll mention her in a new relationship if I ever get there.

 

It sounds like you've given up on him, which is dangerous for the relationship. When you both give up and stop trying to fix things..usually divorce isn't far behind. Not saying you can fix him, that's impossible for you, he has to do it. All you can do is let him know if he doesn't already know something.

 

I wouldn't blame you if you left him, he has to prove he's making 110% effort to fix things, otherwise...ugh...it's just so impossible. I won't blame you if you stay either though. Only you can say when you've had enough. Sometimes divorce action works for people though, without all the drama of trying to work things out while staying. Sometimes I think I should have done that, but if it had failed...man I would have regretted it...and I know now that I didn't need to be married to that woman anyway. I don't think I would have gotten to that place if I hadn't pushed myself to my utmost limits with her. And just maybe if you stay things will get better I dunno. Sounds like he's not trying that hard from what you've said here. Maybe he's putting effort into some other place that you don't notice as much? Sometimes people misdirect efforts because they don't know what's important to their spouses. What has he been doing to fix things?

 

Yes, I do feel myself starting to give up on the him and our marriage. I love him but I keep asking myself how much more of this I can stand to deal with, find out about, etc. For example, I just found out today about the lies dealing with the motorcycle.....it was another letdown after things going relatively ok for a couple weeks or so.

 

As far as his efforts, he has started individual counseling and is at his third appointment right now. I never thought in a million years I'd ever see him go to a therapist. He is looking for another job that would take him away from the co-worker he was messing around with. He took the initiative on both of these things. He does seem to be making an effort to be more open with me. He also seems to be less blaming and taking more responsibility for his choices. But at this point I'm being incredibly cautious with what he says to me....is he just saying the "right" things or does he actually mean them? I don't know right now. He's also not pulling the same BS of "having" to go into work early and stay late, all the crap he was telling me to spend more time with his coworker.

 

So in some ways it does seem like he's making way more of an effort but clearly I'm not ready to accept it all at face value.

[tornandconfused12]

You are reacting in a normal way. Reconciliation is not for everyone. You have every right, now or later, to say enough is enough. And you are absolutely right the lying is the worst part to me. Then the disrespect of knowing you would have fixed or tried to fix any issues in the marriage given the chance. We have all been there. You are heard. We are here if you need us.

 

The lying.....it just sickens me. I'd rather he'd of come home and told me he wanted to s*rew every female in a 20 mile range, please give me a divorce. it still would have been brutal but I can deal with honesty, even when brutal. I had absolutely no idea he was unhappy enough with whatever to take up with his coworker. He completely acted like business as usual at home and in our marriage, which makes me really question who he is or who I thought he was.

 

I told him earlier today if he had come to me and told me he was unhappy with X, Y or Z that I would have done my part to try and fix things. That I feel seriously betrayed and upset that instead of coming to me he went straight for the attention of someone else. There was no opportunity for me at all. He told me he was afraid of what I'd do/say if he told me what he needed/wanted. My response was, "and you weren't afraid of what I'd do if I found out you were screwing around???" I'm not sure where he is coming up with being afraid to express himself to me, it hasn't been a problem in many other circumstances. Makes his explanation suspect, at best.

[tornandconfused12]

Sounds like he's going through a midlife crisis and wanting to live like a single person again without giving up the marriage. Can't have it both ways. Time to realize you deserve better than this and not let it continue. He's disrespecting you and the marriage by continuing to flirt with/engage these other women. I'd suggest you strongly consider buying the house in your name only and letting him have his single life that he seems to be pining for, without dragging you along for the ride. The sooner you give him his freedom, the sooner you can find someone who is worthy of and values your love and faithfulness.

 

The bolded, I basically told him the same thing earlier today.....you hit it right on the nose.

[tornandconfused12]

Whatever you have posted here.......TELL HIM; brutally, honestly, directly.

 

His porn addiction very well could be the cause of his ED. It has been documented medically that this is a very real problem, one only recently being addressed by medical experts. Over visual stimulation of sexual imagery in some men render them useless when with a living, breathing, real life woman in their bed! Sad, no?

 

The lying is just rediculous. Want to be single, be single. Want to flirt anonymously and impress xGFs and co-workers? There is the door. Want to be a 21-year old stud again? Good luck to ya and good bye.

 

Tell him you want a real man as a life partner. You hoped it could be him because you did love him, but if not him, you'd rather be alone or find a good man who cherishes only you to commit to.

 

Tell him you are reluctant to purchase this home with him because of all the lies and disappointments and are thinking of affording it on your own.

 

I'm starting to learn about porn and the effects on those who view a lot of it. It's astounding. I guess it was never an issue before because, well, he was younger and free porn via the internet is now more accessible than ever. I've also not been the type to turn him down on a regular basis.....as I mentioned before, our sex life was fantastic. I realize the porn has nothing to do with me but it's sad our sex life, along with everything else, has gone down this road.

[tornandconfused12]

WS went to his third counseling session this evening and without me asking anything about it initially, he started sharing some of the details of the appointment with me. After about 10-15 minutes I asked a question about what the therapist said to him about open communication in our marriage and he blew up at me....told me it was private information and he wasn't going to "put up with being grilled" after every time he sees the therapist. I figured since he was already sharing the information it would be ok to ask a question. Not so .

 

I just don't get it. Granted, I have done my fair share of wrong in our marriage of over 20 years, I'm not perfect by any means. However, I've never stepped out on him, never even considered it. Every time he talks (barks) to me, or at me, like that, it's just another nail in the coffin of our marriage....at least as far as I'm concerned. On top of cheating on me he somehow feels it's ok to be emotionally abusive as well.

 

I did receive an email from my RE agent and it appears the house we're buying is closing sooner rather than later. So at least some good news there. I cannot wait to get out of our current home and that day cannot come soon enough. I'm tired of having headaches, being tired, and living with this person I no longer know....it's exhausting.

[BetrayedH]

WS went to his third counseling session this evening and without me asking anything about it initially, he started sharing some of the details of the appointment with me. After about 10-15 minutes I asked a question about what the therapist said to him about open communication in our marriage and he blew up at me....told me it was private information and he wasn't going to "put up with being grilled" after every time he sees the therapist. I figured since he was already sharing the information it would be ok to ask a question. Not so .

 

I just don't get it. Granted, I have done my fair share of wrong in our marriage of over 20 years, I'm not perfect by any means. However, I've never stepped out on him, never even considered it. Every time he talks (barks) to me, or at me, like that, it's just another nail in the coffin of our marriage....at least as far as I'm concerned. On top of cheating on me he somehow feels it's ok to be emotionally abusive as well.

 

I did receive an email from my RE agent and it appears the house we're buying is closing sooner rather than later. So at least some good news there. I cannot wait to get out of our current home and that day cannot come soon enough. I'm tired of having headaches, being tired, and living with this person I no longer know....it's exhausting.

 

It's good that he signed himself up for counseling. It might help for you to be able to discuss the purpose of it. While reconciling from infidelity, I see two main purposes. The first is to help him determine why he chose to cheat. The logical/ethical/respectful/healthy reaction to a troubled marriage is to either fix it or divorce. He probably would say that he violated his own standards by cheating. Then "why" choose such an illogical/unethical/disrespectful/unhealthy and destructive path? Surface answers are usually bunk (you didn't pay attention to me, etc) because again, he could have fixed the marriage or left it. Cheating solves absolutely nothing. When a cheater uses therapy to really and truly dig deep to find their "why," it typically stems their childhood and FOO (family of origin). Something had built them to either have an excessive need for external validation, an overdeveloped sense of entitlement, or made them severely conflict avoidant. If he determines his reason "why," perhaps he can more effectively avoid the use of this coping mechanism in the future, violating his own standards and end up hurting his family. The second purpose is to help YOU trust that he won't use this coping strategy again. The fact that you asked him about "open communication" demonstrates that you are hoping in the future that he will learn how to talk with you rather than use this hurtful coping strategy again. You need to see that it is helping him change.

 

I suggest you talk with him about this so that he undertands you are not trying to grill him over his therapy but that it is actually a huge opportunity for him to rebuild trust with you (which he obviously needs guidance on how to do). Talking about his therapy is a win-win. He can have his privacy but he should know that he is passing up an opportunity to speed your recovery and your reconciliation by doing so. I would imagine that if he embracedthe opportunity to share what he was learning about himself, it would have a very big impact on your ability to be patient with what is always a long process. We're talking 2-5 years before you will feel you have truly turned a corner. Alternatively, defensiveness on his part will rapidly degrade your patience for this long haul.

[BetrayedH]

Oh, one thing I wanted to mention about the house...

 

Typically, everything obtained during the marriage is considered a marital asset. It doesn't matter whose "name" it is in. This goes right up to the date of filing for a divorce. It's marital property and you'll both be considered as responsible for the liabilities/debts associated with it as well as it's value as a marital asset. Long story short, he'll likely be entitled to half the value of the house and responsible for half the debt, regardless of whose name it is in.

 

That said, it sounds like he would likely let you keep the house and just expect you to carry the debt in the event of a divorce. Sounds all well and good. But a divorce wouldn't take his name off of the mortgage. And he won't want his name on the mortgage because it will affect his credit until such time as you refinance thr mortgage in your name only. The bank won't just "take his name off" because you're getting divorced. If there are two names of the mortage, they assumed two incomes to determine the financing. He can pretty easily complete a Quit Claim Deed on the home to give up any rights to the home but getting the mortgage refinanced in your name only might be tough.

 

In my case, my wife "got the house" but I required that she attempt to refinance the house under her name only every 6 months until she is successful. Messy. I am still responsible for half that debt until she does and every attempt to refinance has closing costs upwards of $1k.

 

Just trying to say that if you are able to initially finance the house in your name only, that may save you this hassle should you decide to divorce. But don't expect that having it in your name makes it yours. It's marital.

 

Of course, I'm assuming that the laws where you live are similar to where I live but I'd say this is fairly consistent with what happens in the US.

[tornandconfused12]

Oh, one thing I wanted to mention about the house...

 

Typically, everything obtained during the marriage is considered a marital asset. It doesn't matter whose "name" it is in. This goes right up to the date of filing for a divorce. It's marital property and you'll both be considered as responsible for the liabilities/debts associated with it as well as it's value as a marital asset. Long story short, he'll likely be entitled to half the value of the house and responsible for half the debt, regardless of whose name it is in.

 

That said, it sounds like he would likely let you keep the house and just expect you to carry the debt in the event of a divorce. Sounds all well and good. But a divorce wouldn't take his name off of the mortgage. And he won't want his name on the mortgage because it will affect his credit until such time as you refinance thr mortgage in your name only. The bank won't just "take his name off" because you're getting divorced. If there are two names of the mortage, they assumed two incomes to determine the financing. He can pretty easily complete a Quit Claim Deed on the home to give up any rights to the home but getting the mortgage refinanced in your name only might be tough.

 

In my case, my wife "got the house" but I required that she attempt to refinance the house under her name only every 6 months until she is successful. Messy. I am still responsible for half that debt until she does and every attempt to refinance has closing costs upwards of $1k.

 

Just trying to say that if you are able to initially finance the house in your name only, that may save you this hassle should you decide to divorce. But don't expect that having it in your name makes it yours. It's marital.

 

Of course, I'm assuming that the laws where you live are similar to where I live but I'd say this is fairly consistent with what happens in the US.

 

Yep, fully understand the process. We live in a community property state and I've been divorced once before so well acquainted with all of that, unfortunately. But thanks.

[tornandconfused12]

It's good that he signed himself up for counseling. It might help for you to be able to discuss the purpose of it. While reconciling from infidelity, I see two main purposes. The first is to help him determine why he chose to cheat. The logical/ethical/respectful/healthy reaction to a troubled marriage is to either fix it or divorce. He probably would say that he violated his own standards by cheating. Then "why" choose such an illogical/unethical/disrespectful/unhealthy and destructive path? Surface answers are usually bunk (you didn't pay attention to me, etc) because again, he could have fixed the marriage or left it. Cheating solves absolutely nothing. When a cheater uses therapy to really and truly dig deep to find their "why," it typically stems their childhood and FOO (family of origin). Something had built them to either have an excessive need for external validation, an overdeveloped sense of entitlement, or made them severely conflict avoidant. If he determines his reason "why," perhaps he can more effectively avoid the use of this coping mechanism in the future, violating his own standards and end up hurting his family. The second purpose is to help YOU trust that he won't use this coping strategy again. The fact that you asked him about "open communication" demonstrates that you are hoping in the future that he will learn how to talk with you rather than use this hurtful coping strategy again. You need to see that it is helping him change.

 

I suggest you talk with him about this so that he undertands you are not trying to grill him over his therapy but that it is actually a huge opportunity for him to rebuild trust with you (which he obviously needs guidance on how to do). Talking about his therapy is a win-win. He can have his privacy but he should know that he is passing up an opportunity to speed your recovery and your reconciliation by doing so. I would imagine that if he embracedthe opportunity to share what he was learning about himself, it would have a very big impact on your ability to be patient with what is always a long process. We're talking 2-5 years before you will feel you have truly turned a corner. Alternatively, defensiveness on his part will rapidly degrade your patience for this long haul.

 

He tried apologizing for last night's reaction to our conversation about the counseling and I, instead of trying to talk it out with him, blew up and threw everything in his face. Including some information he didn't know I knew about, his platonic female friend. It was a fairly bad scene, lots of yelling. I relate my part of it to being angry about the way he treated me last night and the overall situation.

 

Also, no excuse for losing my temper but a year ago this week was when my dad passed away unexpectedly (I signed to remove him from life support and was with him when he passed) - I'm having a pretty tough time with it. WS has not said a word about it but I know he's aware. It hurts to feel that he doesn't care about that nor what he's done, feel pretty alone right now. This is another thing that makes me question what I'm doing here and why. I've not seen this level of selfishness from another grown adult in a long time - it concerns me greatly.

 

I guess from my perspective it's pretty easy to see his selfishness and perhaps I'm having a bit of a pity party this evening , not sure. OTOH, it would be great to see some sort of effort on his part to be more caring.

 

Anyhow, he did apologize for his defensiveness in the conversation last night although the whole thing turned out badly. More than anything I'd like to see more progress and fewer situations he ends up feeling the need to apologize for. His words don't mean a helluva lot to me right now.

 

I did try telling him before that knowing some things about his counseling sessions would help me feel better about the situation and he told me I was trying to make the counseling about our marriage rather than him. Still not sure what that means. This time he said he would work on being more comfortable about being open.

[whichwayisup]

You are calm and very level headed. It could be that with all that's gone on, you've just realized he isn't worth it. That you'll be okay without him and even though you love him, share children together and will always have that connection, it could be that the marriage is over. Seems he isn't fighting hard to regain your trust, your respect and love. He doesn't seem to be making any effort in reconnecting with you on any level.

 

Ask him if he is willing to finally go to marriage counselling with you. He can continue to go on his own too, but you two need to sort this out for the kids sake. Either way, counselling together is good because you two still will be co parenting together even if a separation or divorce happens.

[tornandconfused12]

Surface answers are usually bunk (you didn't pay attention to me, etc) because again, he could have fixed the marriage or left it. Cheating solves absolutely nothing.

 

"Not enough attention" is the exact reason he's been giving me all along. He says he's taking responsibility for that and the way he tried to "solve" things but he's still giving me that reason/excuse.

 

When a cheater uses therapy to really and truly dig deep to find their "why," it typically stems their childhood and FOO (family of origin). Something had built them to either have an excessive need for external validation, an overdeveloped sense of entitlement, or made them severely conflict avoidant.

 

His family (parents, older sister, him) are extremely conflict-avoidant, especially he and his parents. His sister is the least conflict-avoidant of all of them. She gets labeled by them (mostly by the parents) as the "crazy" one unless they are picking on someone else; like me, WS's first wife or anyone in her family. The sister likes to stir up crap with other people to get the attention off her. Seems weird, I know, but it's what I've noticed.

 

He claims his need for excessive external validation comes from his father alternately ignoring/verbally and emotionally abusing him. I'm not sure how I feel/what I believe about that claim. He also claims his mother basically ignored him unless he was in some sort of trouble. They tend to ignore him now, in a way, but that's always been blamed on my presence in his life. They also completely ignore all of our kids, their grandkids, aside from the typical birthday/Christmas cards.

 

I see an overdeveloped sense of entitlement with him which he, of course, does not agree with. What I see is he was spoiled as a child and was the preferred kid over his older sister who was always in trouble. But I wasn't there and can only go off things I've been told, etc.

 

The fact that you asked him about "open communication" demonstrates that you are hoping in the future that he will learn how to talk with you rather than use this hurtful coping strategy again. You need to see that it is helping him change.

 

Yes, our staying together is contingent upon his willingness to change in this area. I will not be able to remain in the marriage if he cannot or will not change.

 

I would imagine that if he embracedthe opportunity to share what he was learning about himself, it would have a very big impact on your ability to be patient with what is always a long process. We're talking 2-5 years before you will feel you have truly turned a corner.

 

I could be a lot more patient if he was willing to share more (a reasonable amount anyway) without the defensiveness and the mean behavior. The constant defensiveness is definitely driving me away. I'm sick of defending myself, being angry or being sad all the time.

[Furious]

Unless he truly feels remorse it's a dead end. His apparent lack of empathy begs the question why is he still there. Sometimes the only thing that will shake a WS up is when they are sent packing. Either he will lift heaven and earth to return to you with true remorse, or you will have your answer that he is a lost cause.

[tornandconfused12]

You are calm and very level headed. It could be that with all that's gone on, you've just realized he isn't worth it. That you'll be okay without him and even though you love him, share children together and will always have that connection, it could be that the marriage is over. Seems he isn't fighting hard to regain your trust, your respect and love. He doesn't seem to be making any effort in reconnecting with you on any level.

 

Ask him if he is willing to finally go to marriage counselling with you. He can continue to go on his own too, but you two need to sort this out for the kids sake. Either way, counselling together is good because you two still will be co parenting together even if a separation or divorce happens.

 

We've been married a long time and two of our kids are on their own. Our youngest is in his last year of HS so there won't be too much co-parenting left if this ends in divorce. However, I would like to maintain a decent relationship with him if we do divorce because we do share three kids and things will come up in the future. What's making it difficult right now is he has recently distanced himself emotionally from our two older kids, using the excuse they are on their own. He and our middle kid have had a difficult relationship the past few years and our son refuses to speak with his father the vast majority of the time. Our oldest pretends she could care less about him and what goes on here. She lives 1000 miles away so it's easier for her in some ways, not in others. Our youngest resents what his father has done to the family but rightly so, is also wrapped up in his last year of HS; sports, his girlfriend, etc.

 

For me personally, right or wrong I feel like I carry more of the load in this relationship. I feel like I do more of the work holding things together than he does. Like I said, could be right and I could be wrong about that. Sometimes it feels like I have another kid instead of a husband, especially with all that's gone on recently. I do love him but I'm exhausted and yes, I'm no longer sure this is worth all the trouble and work.

[tornandconfused12]

Unless he truly feels remorse it's a dead end. His apparent lack of empathy begs the question why is he still there. Sometimes the only thing that will shake a WS up is when they are sent packing. Either he will lift heaven and earth to return to you with true remorse, or you will have your answer that he is a lost cause.

 

This is the exact thing I was thinking about this afternoon. One thing he has repeatedly said to me throughout the course of this nightmare is, "I've already said I was sorry, what else am I supposed to say?" To me that just sounds like something one of my kids would have said to me back in their grade school days. For an otherwise intelligent man in his 50's, this statement is nothing but appalling and disrespectful to me, and definitely reeks of a lack of remorse on his part. "I'm sorry" just doesn't fix everything, not buy a long shot. Especially when his actions speak to the contrary most of the time.

[Furious]

This is the exact thing I was thinking about this afternoon. One thing he has repeatedly said to me throughout the course of this nightmare is, "I've already said I was sorry, what else am I supposed to say?" To me that just sounds like something one of my kids would have said to me back in their grade school days. For an otherwise intelligent man in his 50's, this statement is nothing but appalling and disrespectful to me, and definitely reeks of a lack of remorse on his part. "I'm sorry" just doesn't fix everything, not buy a long shot. Especially when his actions speak to the contrary most of the time.

 

He's looking for cheap forgiveness from you. It's very clear you will not accept anything less than true remorse.

 

It's up to you how much you can take and how much patience you can offer.

 

I think IC is very important, but I also think if you're willing to give it more time you should also be in marriage counseling. Be careful in who you choose as your counselor, there are so many awful ones out there. My husband and I were lucky, in our first session she made it very clear that I was entitled answers to any questions I had, and that omitting truth was just as much a lie. She also said that my husband must also dig for and find the answer to WHY he cheated. Your husband needs to hear this and understand this if there's any hope for reconciling.

 

Keep strong!!!

[tornandconfused12]

He's looking for cheap forgiveness from you. It's very clear you will not accept anything less than true remorse.

 

It's up to you how much you can take and how much patience you can offer.

 

I think IC is very important, but I also think if you're willing to give it more time you should also be in marriage counseling. Be careful in who you choose as your counselor, there are so many awful ones out there. My husband and I were lucky, in our first session she made it very clear that I was entitled answers to any questions I had, and that omitting truth was just as much a lie. She also said that my husband must also dig for and find the answer to WHY he cheated. Your husband needs to hear this and understand this if there's any hope for reconciling.

 

Keep strong!!!

 

Thanks!

 

I have heard horror stories about some marriage counselors and I'll definitely try to make a wise choice should we end up there. I am more than willing to go, even alone, but I just wonder what there is to try and save, if anything. I love him but d*mn this has been a lot of work; frustrating, tiring, infuriating.....I just don't know.

 

He seems to be thoroughly convinced that me not paying enough attention to him was his reason for cheating. This attention issue, he claims, stems back to mostly his father and somewhat his mother. He says it's his issue to deal with but I'm hesitant in what I'm ready to believe, how much responsibility he's really taking for all of this.

 

On the same topic of attention, IMO he doesn't pay enough attention to me or our marriage, for a multitude of reasons, and I didn't go outside the marriage to "solve" that problem. I know men and women are different but 'lack of attention' seems lame to me in retrospect, an excuse. What makes it worse is he never came to me and told me how he felt, just went straight for going outside the marriage.

[2sure]

In reading your descriptions of your husband, his infidelity, his needs for validation, the lies, the ability to lie so well about something so big....

 

Are you able to have verifiable proof that he is attending therapy...and how many times?

 

Same with his seeking a job transfer.

 

I realize this sounds paranoid, but it happens.