strongnrelaxed Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 I have read several insults like this on this message board and I wonder about this all the time. So, when a woman says to a man "man up" or "be a man" or "stop whining like a little girl" how do you feel about that ladies? Think about the subtext there. It is like saying that one of the worst insults you can hurl at a man is to attack his masculinity by equating him (quite unfavorably) to a woman. As if being a woman or a girl is the WORST possible crime for a man (depending on the poster). Just sit on that for a second and let it sink in. How does this sit with you as a woman? Do you find this more insulting against women than the actual target for which the insult was intended? Men, what do you think?
BetheButterfly Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 I have read several insults like this on this message board and I wonder about this all the time. So, when a woman says to a man "man up" or "be a man" or "stop whining like a little girl" how do you feel about that ladies? Think about the subtext there. It is like saying that one of the worst insults you can hurl at a man is to attack his masculinity by equating him (quite unfavorably) to a woman. As if being a woman or a girl is the WORST possible crime for a man (depending on the poster). Just sit on that for a second and let it sink in. How does this sit with you as a woman? Do you find this more insulting against women than the actual target for which the insult was intended? Men, what do you think? Hello, I don't think insulting anybody for anything is good for relationships. Insults chip away at the soul of a person, making the person feel horrible. Insults do not help anyone have a wonderful relationship with anybody. When a parent insults his/her child, when a spouse insults his/her marriage partner, when a boss insults his/her employee, all these and more build walls between people. Although the walls can't be seen, they are stronger than iron and are very difficult to break down for a healthy relationship to bloom. Insults just cause friction, invisible hard walls, and hurt feelings. They do not help anyone, no matter who says them or to whom they are said. 2
xxoo Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 I do balk at insults that compare boys to girls, or men to women, as if that is the worst thing you can be. But it has also entered our culture in a way that is difficult to avoid. Even the concept of "hysteria" is a knock on women (hyster- means uterus). I find myself using them sometimes, but in unconventional ways. Women tell each other to "man up", reclaiming it in a way. I don't see "be a man" as an insult to woman in any way. "Be a man" can be opposed to a boy, not necessarily a woman or a girl. Be a grown up. Grow up.
underwater2010 Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 I have read several insults like this on this message board and I wonder about this all the time. So, when a woman says to a man "man up" or "be a man" or "stop whining like a little girl" how do you feel about that ladies? Think about the subtext there. It is like saying that one of the worst insults you can hurl at a man is to attack his masculinity by equating him (quite unfavorably) to a woman. As if being a woman or a girl is the WORST possible crime for a man (depending on the poster). Just sit on that for a second and let it sink in. How does this sit with you as a woman? I find it to be a complimant to real men. I see real men a pillar of strength. They are able to hold the world on their shoulders and yet don't complain. Where as, women tend to emotional and nurturing. It is not insulting to either party. Hell I even tell women to put their big girl panties on. In other words, grow up and realize the world does not revolve around you and is not fair. Do you find this more insulting against women than the actual target for which the insult was intended? NOPE!!!!
Hawaii50 Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 I've gotten a lot of the "be a man, stop acting like a woman" lately... doesn't do much to me but make me laugh at the individual who thinks they're somehow more manly than I. I go by my definition, and I think I have and am the makings of a decent man( with still so much to experience,) and again, doesn't really effect me. It does however, make me sad for our society and some of the things people assume a man to be. 1
amaysngrace Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Anybody who is having their own pity party sometimes needs to be slapped out of it. Sometimes it's harsh to hear. But hey...whatever works.
Ninja'sHusband Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) I tend to take the phrase "man-up" as a common phrase that doesn't necessarily make any more sense than telling a woman to "grow a pair". One thing that bothers me is when women simultaneously expect men to fulfill the traditional male roles and yet be free of the traditional feminine roles. What if I said, "Woman up and..." <insert sexist demand here> ? I'll leave the sexist demand to your imagination Someone might take me seriously if I get too concrete. Also women claim they want non-traditional men (ie sensitive, does housework) at the same time that they want the traditional chivalrous knight in shining armor. I can't believe how many women say on their singles pages, "I want a man who will treat me like a princess". What if I put on my page, "I want a woman who will treat me like a prince."? Really the problem goes both ways. We need to try to forget about the stereotypes and focus on our own relationships, how we as unique couples need to work. We need to, at the same time, respect what our partner does in their role and balance our own contributions between the various roles: parent, spouse, financial provider, sensitive one, strong one, handyman(woman), food preparer, etc. Edited October 8, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband 2
BetheButterfly Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 I tend to take the phrase "man-up" as a common phrase that doesn't necessarily make any more sense than telling a woman to "grow a pair". One thing that bothers me is when women simultaneously expect men to fulfill the traditional male roles and yet be free of the traditional feminine roles. What if I said, "Woman up and..." <insert sexist demand here> ? I'll leave the sexist demand to your imagination Someone might take me seriously if I get too concrete. Also women claim they want non-traditional men (ie sensitive, does housework) at the same time that they want the traditional chivalrous knight in shining armor. I can't believe how many women say on their singles pages, "I want a man who will treat me like a princess". What if I put on my page, "I want a woman who will treat me like a prince."? Really the problem goes both ways. We need to try to forget about the stereotypes and focus on our own relationships, how we as unique couples need to work. We need to, at the same time, respect what our partner does in their role and balance our own contributions between the various roles: parent, spouse, financial provider, sensitive one, strong one, handyman(woman), food preparer, etc. Good points 1
Author strongnrelaxed Posted October 8, 2012 Author Posted October 8, 2012 So it seems like a mixed bag and that some are ok with this. I would have guessed otherwise. Thanks for sharing your opinions.
xxoo Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 One thing that bothers me is when women simultaneously expect men to fulfill the traditional male roles and yet be free of the traditional feminine roles. What if I said, "Woman up and..." <insert sexist demand here> ? I've heard "woman up", but used in a way that is similar to "man up". Meaning: toughen up, stand up for yourself, be a grown up. I think men underestimate how much women encourage other women to be strong, have a backbone, stop whining and start fixing. It isn't like we encourage each other to be emotional and look for a man to save us! 2
Author strongnrelaxed Posted October 9, 2012 Author Posted October 9, 2012 Anybody who is having their own pity party sometimes needs to be slapped out of it. Sometimes it's harsh to hear. But hey...whatever works. I agree with this. My question still stands - is it an insult to women to equate a man to a woman?
Author strongnrelaxed Posted October 9, 2012 Author Posted October 9, 2012 I've heard "woman up", but used in a way that is similar to "man up". Meaning: toughen up, stand up for yourself, be a grown up. I think men underestimate how much women encourage other women to be strong, have a backbone, stop whining and start fixing. It isn't like we encourage each other to be emotional and look for a man to save us! I have never heard this one before. This must be relatively new or a feminist concoction to "reclaim" the term or something. But I am glad it is happening. I have known some very strong and great women and I would not at all be offended if someone were to tell me to be more like one of them.
Author strongnrelaxed Posted October 9, 2012 Author Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) I tend to take the phrase "man-up" as a common phrase that doesn't necessarily make any more sense than telling a woman to "grow a pair". One thing that bothers me is when women simultaneously expect men to fulfill the traditional male roles and yet be free of the traditional feminine roles. What if I said, "Woman up and..." <insert sexist demand here> ? I'll leave the sexist demand to your imagination Someone might take me seriously if I get too concrete. Also women claim they want non-traditional men (ie sensitive, does housework) at the same time that they want the traditional chivalrous knight in shining armor. I can't believe how many women say on their singles pages, "I want a man who will treat me like a princess". What if I put on my page, "I want a woman who will treat me like a prince."? Really the problem goes both ways. We need to try to forget about the stereotypes and focus on our own relationships, how we as unique couples need to work. We need to, at the same time, respect what our partner does in their role and balance our own contributions between the various roles: parent, spouse, financial provider, sensitive one, strong one, handyman(woman), food preparer, etc. You make a good point. Your last paragraph sounds very nice, but in my experience it is idealistic. I agree with it though. I just cannot find this anywhere. This is the very thing I have been posting about over and over. Men by the millions have bought this ^^ and it ruined their relationships. It has been virtually impossible to get even the smart women here to engage in a dialog about this. Some become overly sensitive and go off on tears at the slightest provocation - and then call men whiners and misogynistic for asking the questions to begin with! So, while I would like for this to be true, find that woman. She isn't lurking around here I can tell you. At least not from what I have seen. The women here want a perfect man. Anything less is a loser. They are ok with being overweight themselves, uneducated, not earn much, etc, but they hold their men to a different standard while complaining about outdated patriarchal systems. We are all being led down this path that will continue to bifurcate and undermine us. The question in my mind these days is - who is winning in all of this? Edited October 9, 2012 by strongnrelaxed e
Got it Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Yes, I do think the terminology is a continuing misogynistic take on society. Assessments of strength, smarts, skills, or ability through sex organs, gender stereotypes/estimations, sexual orientation, etc are erroneous and insulting to all parties involved.
amaysngrace Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I agree with this. My question still stands - is it an insult to women to equate a man to a woman? No. If a guy is wallowing in his own self pity then saying that isn't about a woman. It's about helping the guy. Why are you reading so much into it? I've been blunt when trying to help others and will say whatever needs to be said to give them food for thought. It's not about me. Or an insult to anybody. If someone says "stop being a baby" do you think it means the person saying it doesn't like babies?
carhill Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 My backhanded compliment of choice, receiving, has been 'you'll make someone a good wife someday'. I'm just lousy with trading insults, so end up serving a silence sandwich. Personally, I don't get what's so feminizing about doing dishes, laundry, cooking, housework, etc, even though I grew up in a house where a woman happened to mostly do those things. She also fixed cars and mowed the lawn. See where that is going? Equal opportunity, equal responsibility, gender irrelevant, IMO.
SpiralOut Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I don't take stuff like that personally. It goes both ways. One way of insulting a woman is to call her manly or butch.
carhill Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 Do you wear a dress? How about makeup and lipstick? Cross-dressing has been fun on the occasional Halloween but generally no. -the woman did a lot of chores around the farmhouse while the man was doing tasks around the farm that required more in the way of brute physical strength. Generally true, but I happened to be raised by a woman who drove a farm tractor, slaughtered animals and worked in the vineyard, in addition to doing 'woman stuff', so never got the message that a man could only do one thing and a woman another. I never got the insults so many must have gotten regarding 'manning up'. Instead, I saw a lot of equality in her large family, where the sisters outnumbered the brothers by 8 to 3. The same with my father. Perhaps that was failed socialization for my generation of separatists. Is it outlier to kill like a man and nurture like a woman? Perhaps. There ya go. 1
Recommended Posts