ScreamingTrees Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 What was she, like 12? Hard to tell exactly how she's going to turn out, but she'll likely be pretty cute. To be honest, that girl reminds me of many of the women I have gone for. When they were younger, they thought they were unattractive and they are insecure and are posting "Am I Ugly?" and stuff. Then, I am the guy who thinks they are super cute, and by then, they have enough male attention to totally blow me off and not even consider me as a possibility. Vicious. Sometimes when I see young girls (aged 9-13 or so), maybe my friend's friends kids, I'll say to myself ... "Yup, she's gonna grow up to reject me (or a guy like me)." Yup. It's BAD. I think a lot of people, both male and female, can be late bloomers in that regard. I think I was a lot uglier when I was younger, but even now in the last year or so I notice subtle changes.. I've changed a lot in the last several years, but mentally I can still revert to the same insecure kid that I was. It happens less and less as I'm getting older. Think about a person like this, who goes through a major physical change and looks like a totally different person, objectively; I remember watching the whole thing on TV awhile back.. Very inspiring. I'd probably look a bit like this guy if I was 600 lbs.. But see, he looks fine now, I can't see why any attractive girls wouldn't be into him.. His problem now is completely internal. He could've easily kept his self image problems, but towards the end you can hear him say "that's not me, that's a totally different person now" so he doesn't see himself as overweight now. 650-lb. Virgin - The Weight Is Over Part 1-3 - YouTube - I wasn't sure why they had to title it "650 lb. virgin" but I guess it was because that wasn't a stand alone program, this is the other one. I don't understand why you struggle, Jo.. You seem like a nice, peaceful fellow overall. You don't seem to harbor hatred or resentment towards anyone, at least.
xxoo Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 To be honest, that girl reminds me of many of the women I have gone for. When they were younger, they thought they were unattractive and they are insecure and are posting "Am I Ugly?" and stuff. Then, I am the guy who thinks they are super cute, and by then, they have enough male attention to totally blow me off and not even consider me as a possibility. Vicious. But you weren't the only one to think they were super cute. Lots of guys thought they were cute. Otherwise, she wouldn't have all that male attention. Just because a young girl thinks she is ugly doesn't mean the boys think she is ugly. jobaba, how do you define non-shallow? From a few of your posts, I suspect you over-estimate the shallowness of other men, as compared to yourself.
jobaba Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 Okay, I am always fascinated by this.... how do you KNOW she has tons of male attention? Is she telling you? Are you following these girls around, making tally marks of all the guys that talk to her? Or are you just assuming that she has tons of male attention? Also, in what manner are the girls "blowing you off"? In a few cases, I do know. As in they have other guys going for them and other options and the same women told me they were unpopular in high school and used to be picked on. You have to remember, I have never gone for a woman that would be considered consensus HOT. In other cases, I assume they have other men going for them. But one thing was for sure. I liked them and they didn't like me.
mtnbiker Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 (edited) For myself, this has been a steep hill with obstacles. I have always been co-dependent to some degree, seeking validation and happiness through others thoughts and feelings. I go into relationships not only thinking but hoping "this is the one". This is termed "AFC" on this site and many others. What I have done is read many peoples' opinions and styles on here, as well as start reading some ebooks on the topics of confidence, dating and more. I have started seeing a psychologist weekly to help me help myself to improve, find my lost confidence(which was once extremely high), and improve my self esteem. She has opened my eyes to other issues I was oblivious to having already. I stepped up my style game about a year ago. Three years ago I started at 175lbs and am now 145lbs with ~8.5% body fat. I have begun eating much more healthy foods. Currently I am in the process of quitting cigarettes. On top of all of this I went back to college after my family masonry business folded after 31 years due to the economy. I recently was accepted to and have started graduate school after earning a 3.8gpa in my undergrad program through five semesters. Still....I have a ways to go and I lost my most recent girlfriend. So why I am I still so seemingly unsuccessful "I'majerk" ?? Perhaps it is the lack of confidence still, but as you can see I have done more self improvement in the last three years than some, if not many, do in a lifetime. Granted, I was coming from a recent (10 years ago up to 3 years ago) past that was not all that fantastic. Edited October 4, 2012 by mtnbiker
Sun Devil Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 For the past year I have been improving myself. I used to think that if I was a nice person, girls would come to me, but I found out that being the "nice guy" and waiting for girls to come does not work. I built up my confidence and now I can approach strangers without hesitation. I have been building muscle to look better and to be healthier. I still worry that my height can be an issue, but I am also seeing more relationships where the woman is taller. I have also been improving my communication and trying to have an interesting personality in order to attract women. However, I am seeing that alot of girls already have boyfriends, so that is the big issue I have now.
verhrzn Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 In a few cases, I do know. As in they have other guys going for them and other options and the same women told me they were unpopular in high school and used to be picked on. You have to remember, I have never gone for a woman that would be considered consensus HOT. In other cases, I assume they have other men going for them. But one thing was for sure. I liked them and they didn't like me. ... If they have lots of male attention, then by definition, doesn't that make them hot? Or are you arguing that all of these guys are going for ugly girls? Here's where the logic really breaks down for me. Averaging out statistics, there is roughly a 1:1 sex ratio. So, one boy for every girl. So, if Girl A is getting 5 guys' attention, that means that Girls B-E are not getting attention. Or, conversely, that Guy 1 is paying attention to both Girl A and Girl B, Guy 2 is paying attention to Girl A and Girl C, etc. By sheer statistics, if one girl is getting lots of attention, then other girls aren't getting any attention, OR guys are giving attention indiscriminately. So if a girl is getting lots of male attention, that either means she IS conventionally hot (since, uh, well, the more people who find you attractive, the more attractive you would be considered) or guys are just running around willy-nilly to absolutely every girl and giving her attention, so every girl has lots of male attention. For the record, you do not need to be ugly to be picked on in school. Girls can be very vicious to each other, even to other gorgeous girls, for the sake of female domination. Haven't you ever seen "Mean Girls?" Part of the reason the Popular Girl picked on Lindsey Lohan was because she was jealous of her. Either way, you don't know for all cases, so in those cases where you are assuming you could be dead wrong, and they could be blowing you off for a whole myriad of other reasons.
xxoo Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 For the record, you do not need to be ugly to be picked on in school. Girls can be very vicious to each other, even to other gorgeous girls, for the sake of female domination. That's true. I was even picked on by the boyfriends of other girls at times (of course, only when their girlfriends were listening ) I was never ugly. You can't judge who is attractive by high school popularity. 1
jobaba Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 But you weren't the only one to think they were super cute. Lots of guys thought they were cute. Otherwise, she wouldn't have all that male attention. Just because a young girl thinks she is ugly doesn't mean the boys think she is ugly. jobaba, how do you define non-shallow? From a few of your posts, I suspect you over-estimate the shallowness of other men, as compared to yourself. Yes. Perhaps I was just punching out of my league. Although I have never gone for any woman that would be considered above a consensus 7 I would say. But depending on who you ask, I might be much lower than that. And of the ones that I can remember, I got to know them first. I guess they just thought they could do better. Oh well. I know I am non-shallow because all my friends tell me I am. And because I espouse the 'only-above' mentality. As in, I see women that I think are out of my league and men that I think are more attractive than me, but I NEVER think I am better looking than another man or woman. I'll never walk into a bar and say, "I could do better than her." or "I'm better looking than that guy." Never. It might be because it's true. :lmao:
xxoo Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 Yes. Perhaps I was just punching out of my league. Although I have never gone for any woman that would be considered above a consensus 7 I would say. But depending on who you ask, I might be much lower than that. And of the ones that I can remember, I got to know them first. I guess they just thought they could do better. Oh well. I know I am non-shallow because all my friends tell me I am. And because I espouse the 'only-above' mentality. As in, I see women that I think are out of my league and men that I think are more attractive than me, but I NEVER think I am better looking than another man or woman. I'll never walk into a bar and say, "I could do better than her." or "I'm better looking than that guy." Never. It might be because it's true. :lmao: I don't think you are punching out of your league. I think you have too low an opinion of yourself, and people believe you. Consider I'm an average girl. Two average guys express interest in me. One guy thinks he's awesome, and thinks I'm hawt. The other guy thinks he's ok, and thinks I'm cute. Who am I gonna choose? Who is gonna make me tingly and excited? 1
verhrzn Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 Yes. Perhaps I was just punching out of my league. Although I have never gone for any woman that would be considered above a consensus 7 I would say. But depending on who you ask, I might be much lower than that. And of the ones that I can remember, I got to know them first. I guess they just thought they could do better. Oh well. I know I am non-shallow because all my friends tell me I am. And because I espouse the 'only-above' mentality. As in, I see women that I think are out of my league and men that I think are more attractive than me, but I NEVER think I am better looking than another man or woman. I'll never walk into a bar and say, "I could do better than her." or "I'm better looking than that guy." Never. It might be because it's true. :lmao: Well that might be your cause right there. I think it's been stated several times on this forum, and on Dr. Nerdlove, but if you're attracted to a girl, you need to make a move as soon as possible (ask her on a date, say you find her interested and attractive, etc.) I think girls are actually a lot more practical than men in certain ways, in that if a guy hasn't shown any romantic interest in them, they shrug and friend-zone him.* Maybe instead of getting to know them first, you should just begin by asking them on a date and getting to know them in a romantic sense. Have you read any of the Dr. Nerdlove articles I post? *I usually only see girls pining in cases where the guy has given them severe mixed signals.
yongyong Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 You have very low self-esteem. you are trying to justify yourself by saying 'I am non-shallow'. It's such a stupid excuse. I don't know why I should give a damn to a guy on internet. I hope you better listen and grow some confidence. Yes. Perhaps I was just punching out of my league. Although I have never gone for any woman that would be considered above a consensus 7 I would say. But depending on who you ask, I might be much lower than that. And of the ones that I can remember, I got to know them first. I guess they just thought they could do better. Oh well. I know I am non-shallow because all my friends tell me I am. And because I espouse the 'only-above' mentality. As in, I see women that I think are out of my league and men that I think are more attractive than me, but I NEVER think I am better looking than another man or woman. I'll never walk into a bar and say, "I could do better than her." or "I'm better looking than that guy." Never. It might be because it's true. :lmao:
jobaba Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 ... If they have lots of male attention, then by definition, doesn't that make them hot? Or are you arguing that all of these guys are going for ugly girls? Here's where the logic really breaks down for me. Averaging out statistics, there is roughly a 1:1 sex ratio. So, one boy for every girl. So, if Girl A is getting 5 guys' attention, that means that Girls B-E are not getting attention. Or, conversely, that Guy 1 is paying attention to both Girl A and Girl B, Guy 2 is paying attention to Girl A and Girl C, etc. By sheer statistics, if one girl is getting lots of attention, then other girls aren't getting any attention, OR guys are giving attention indiscriminately. So if a girl is getting lots of male attention, that either means she IS conventionally hot (since, uh, well, the more people who find you attractive, the more attractive you would be considered) or guys are just running around willy-nilly to absolutely every girl and giving her attention, so every girl has lots of male attention. For the record, you do not need to be ugly to be picked on in school. Girls can be very vicious to each other, even to other gorgeous girls, for the sake of female domination. Haven't you ever seen "Mean Girls?" Part of the reason the Popular Girl picked on Lindsey Lohan was because she was jealous of her. Either way, you don't know for all cases, so in those cases where you are assuming you could be dead wrong, and they could be blowing you off for a whole myriad of other reasons. Well. Perhaps you're right. Perhaps the few were just much better looking than me (although with at least two of them people in public thought we were a couple). My logic (which is never right) is that a girl who is picked on and made to feel unattractive might give more of a chance to a guy who isn't maybe the most attractive she could get. I know I would ... give every chance to a girl I thought was cool and smart and not that attractive if she really liked me. Because I have been marginalized and made to feel unattractive, definitely. I've never had a chance to do that though. Either way, I've gone for women all over the spectrum (except the hot ones).
SteveC80 Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 I will say your plain or medicore looking women has a lot more suitors and inflated ego usually then her male counterpart and ive seen it first hand with friends who struggled and constantly got rejected and these women who rejected them would borderline stalk me So i dont think its extreme to say girls near these guys level are rejecting them in hopes of landing a good looking guy becauaw theyve had experience with good looking guys above their league before albeit maybe just for a fling but still an experience
SteveC80 Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 My logic (which is never right) is that a girl who is picked on and made to feel unattractive might give more of a chance to a guy who isn't maybe the most attractive she could get. . Think of it that she always fantasized about being popular ahnd beign liked by the popular/good loookign crowd and now is her chance
xxoo Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 Either way, I've gone for women all over the spectrum (except the hot ones). jobaba, women want a man who thinks she is HOT! If you don't ever think of average girls as hot (I know lots of average men and women who I consider hot, based on small details of their appearance or personality), it is hard for me to understand how you are non-shallow. 1
jobaba Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 I don't think you are punching out of your league. I think you have too low an opinion of yourself, and people believe you. Consider I'm an average girl. Two average guys express interest in me. One guy thinks he's awesome, and thinks I'm hawt. The other guy thinks he's ok, and thinks I'm cute. Who am I gonna choose? Who is gonna make me tingly and excited? I would think you would choose the guy who got to know you as a person over time AND in his clouded, emotion befuddled mind thinks you are the most beautiful woman in the world. Instead of dating some jerk who when you tried to break up with him, talked you out of it, just so he could get the satisfaction of dumping you a week later. OK. That one was a little too close to home. Well that might be your cause right there. I think it's been stated several times on this forum, and on Dr. Nerdlove, but if you're attracted to a girl, you need to make a move as soon as possible (ask her on a date, say you find her interested and attractive, etc.) I think girls are actually a lot more practical than men in certain ways, in that if a guy hasn't shown any romantic interest in them, they shrug and friend-zone him.* Maybe instead of getting to know them first, you should just begin by asking them on a date and getting to know them in a romantic sense. Have you read any of the Dr. Nerdlove articles I post? *I usually only see girls pining in cases where the guy has given them severe mixed signals. To be fair V, I have had a couple of girlfriends. And they have come to me in that situation. As in, I hooked up with them with barely knowing them. Seems contrary to logic to me. But my logic is never right... You have very low self-esteem. you are trying to justify yourself by saying 'I am non-shallow'. It's such a stupid excuse. I don't know why I should give a damn to a guy on internet. I hope you better listen and grow some confidence. Sometimes my self-esteem is OK. I work on it. Slipping into patterns of whining on LS certainly does me no favors. I do like that part about myself though ... the not thinking I'm better looking than other people part. I'd rather not part with that...
jobaba Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 jobaba, women want a man who thinks she is HOT! If you don't ever think of average girls as hot (I know lots of average men and women who I consider hot, based on small details of their appearance or personality), it is hard for me to understand how you are non-shallow. You don't understand. I think some average girls are REALLY HOT! But I judge things on two scales ... what I think it hot, and what other guys think is hot. The last woman who rejected me ... she had me under such a spell, I would have taken her over anybody. Jessica Alba, Kate Upton, Jenna Jameson, numerous Asian actresses you wouldn't know. I'm dead serious. I really thought she was that beautiful towards the end ... a woman I had lukewarm attraction to at the start. I had her 'appraised' by a fellow LSer (one of the least bitter most content males here) and he rated her as a 6.5. You might think that was crappy of me, but I just wanted to see how far out my league she was. Anyway. I never told her how beautiful I thought she was, because that's cheezy in mind. That's not why I liked her. Not that it would have made a difference if I did.
xxoo Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 I would think you would choose the guy who got to know you as a person over time AND in his clouded, emotion befuddled mind thinks you are the most beautiful woman in the world. Instead of dating some jerk who when you tried to break up with him, talked you out of it, just so he could get the satisfaction of dumping you a week later. OK. That one was a little too close to home. Did the jerk think she was hot right early on? Why couldn't the good guy think she's hot right early on? Then she'd be hopelessly attached to the good guy To be fair V, I have had a couple of girlfriends. And they have come to me in that situation. As in, I hooked up with them with barely knowing them. Seems contrary to logic to me. But my logic is never right... Because you lit a spark in them early on. You don't have to jump into dating, but you do need to establish some sexual tension early on. Flirt boldly! If she responds well, flirt boldly and then walk away. Let is simmer 2
verhrzn Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 Maybe the problem is not self-improvement, or even strictly self-love/low self-esteem, but this idea of perfectionism. A commonality that I've noticed in my observations between lonely guys is this aching need to be perfect, to be "right." To have the right kind of body, the perfect height, the right job, the perfect personality. It isn't enough to just be good, or reasonably attractive; everything must be right. And if they themselves are "right" already, then the need for perfection seems to extend to the women they interact with. It isn't just enough to converse with a woman; everything seems to need to go according to a certain plan, like a blue print. The woman needs to have A, B and C qualities. She needs to respond in this way, and the relationship needs to progress according to very specific sequences. I think it's why PUA has had such success. It isn't just about tools for confidence; it is literally giving guys a step-by-step instruction on love. A flow chart to the heart, if you will. So maybe the issue is not that guys need to improve themselves... but that guys actually need to cut themselves (and women) some slack. They need to abandon the need for perfection all together. Maybe they don't have a perfect body, but they are healthy. Maybe their job doesn't pay fantastic, but they have a lot of fun with their coworkers. That sort of thing. One piece of advice that women get a lot that I think could benefit lonely men is the idea of looking for someone beyond your type. This often gets mushed in with "settling," but it's more subtle than that. The core idea is for women to abandon their own version of perfection/romanticism, and start embracing the idea that a guy worth dating might not fit their criteria. For a girl, this might look like giving the 5'6" guy a chance even though she has a rule about dating only over 6'. For the guy, this could materialize as striking up a conversation with the goth girl in the corner, even though you've only ever favored cheerleaders. Humans are strange, quirky, inscrutable creatures, full of fascinating follies. I think maybe the people who have the most success in life are not the ones who seek to scrub every weakness and flaw from their bones, but ones who embrace and forgive themselves, and others, for not being perfect. 4
verhrzn Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 jobaba, women want a man who thinks she is HOT! If you don't ever think of average girls as hot (I know lots of average men and women who I consider hot, based on small details of their appearance or personality), it is hard for me to understand how you are non-shallow. I second this. One of my exes told me once that it was okay I wasn't hot, because he "preferred cute over hot." When I asked skeptically if his other girlfriends had been cute instead of hot, he enthused," Oh no, they were cute AND hot!" Talk about a lady-boner killer. I am never a fan of a guy choosing me because he thinks I am average, and thus he has a better chance of snagging me. It's rather similar to how I ended up with my exes; they dated me out of desperation, and because they figured it'd be "easy" as they had no competition to worry about.
xxoo Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 You don't understand. I think some average girls are REALLY HOT! But I judge things on two scales ... what I think it hot, and what other guys think is hot. The last woman who rejected me ... she had me under such a spell, I would have taken her over anybody. Jessica Alba, Kate Upton, Jenna Jameson, numerous Asian actresses you wouldn't know. I'm dead serious. I really thought she was that beautiful towards the end ... a woman I had lukewarm attraction to at the start. I had her 'appraised' by a fellow LSer (one of the least bitter most content males here) and he rated her as a 6.5. You might think that was crappy of me, but I just wanted to see how far out my league she was. Anyway. I never told her how beautiful I thought she was, because that's cheezy in mind. That's not why I liked her. Not that it would have made a difference if I did. Ok, but I think this is normal. Not profoundly non-shallow, but typical for a man or woman with a crush. I don't think my friends' husbands are hot--but they do! I'm not wrong and they aren't wrong. It's subjective with average looking people (most people).
AD1980 Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 jobaba, women want a man who thinks she is HOT! I wish getting women was as easy as finding her hot unfortunately she has to find you somewhat hot as well or shell just say thank you and move on:lmao:
PJKino Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 jobaba, women want a man who thinks she is HOT! If you don't ever think of average girls as hot (I know lots of average men and women who I consider hot, based on small details of their appearance or personality), it is hard for me to understand how you are non-shallow. Wasnt there a post recently about how women hate being objectified and having guys comment on their looks at first now youre saying tell her shes hot right away godamn you cant win with women lol you really dont know what you want or respond to
fortyninethousand322 Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 Why does anyone bother trying to help "frustrated" men? Just ignore their threads. The problem will fix itself eventually. People get what they deserve in this life.
jobaba Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 Did the jerk think she was hot right early on? Why couldn't the good guy think she's hot right early on? Then she'd be hopelessly attached to the good guy In my opinion the jerk told her that she was hot just to charm her. If he really thought so, he probably wouldn't have dumped her so unceremoniously. But that is all pointless conjecture. In her defense tough, he was a REALLY good looking dude by all accounts. Not that I was trying to compete, it's just kind of happened for me. To be fair, I have done that too. Told girls I think they are really cute at the beginning. Anhoo, enough thread jacking. Thanks for being my Wed night shrink!
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