Ladydrib Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 I've been trying to figure out several things that I believe led to my affair (and probably others' affairs as well). For me it was not making a decision to leave an unhappy marriage before staying got to a point of desperation combined with timing, a chance emotional connection with someone, at the same time. That's how, but it doesn't answer why. I need to understand why so that I can make choices and take actions that keep me from getting that confused and unhappy, so I do not make another bad decision that can hurt so many people. On the outside looking in it seems pretty simple. Leave the marriage and start over. Simple. In theory it's simple. Not an excuse, again it's me trying to understand. So coincidentally I was reading something, just because it's something I wanted to read, but I think I might have found the answer. It has to do with the id, ego, and super ego all working together in tandem with the magic combination of circumstances. I'm no expert on this stuff but when I was reading about the id, ego, and super ego, this idea hit me. The idea is that if you are in an unhappy marriage, your id gets deprived. But you endure it and can't bring yourself to leave because your super ego would never allow it. And it becomes a battle between the two that makes you miserable and you can't find your way out. The entire time your ego is making your decisions for you as the id and super ego pull you in two ways. You get to a point where you're so starved and that connection with someone else comes into the picture and your ego for the first time makes a decision that satisfies your id (to cheat) But your super ego is now crushing you from two angles, 1. Your inability to leave because you feel abandoning your marriage is wrong (per your super ego) and 2. Cheating is wrong (per your super ego). So now you have created an even more miserable situation in which you are not only held captive in a bad situation by trying to do what's right by your super ego, but also doing what you want by your id. So the lesson I see, is that sometimes we need to examine more closely why we hold certain beliefs about what is right or wrong. Is staying right just because my super ego says marriage is commitment for life? Maybe sometimes what our rigid super egos label as 'right' are in fact wrong and force us down a path of one bad decision after the other. Wonder if anyone else who has had an affair can identify with this explanation. 2
Got it Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 For me it was the point where the thing/subject that I was "putting up for gamble", the marriage/my ex, was something that I no longer valued enough. At that point it became something that I was okay with gambling/losing because it wasn't something I was looking to hold tight. But I was already decided on divorcing and was looking at how to separate, the logistics on it, when the affair started. I just hadn't gotten the nerve to make the hurdle to tell my ex I was done. We had discussions about not doing well, etc but I needed to say that I was done and there was no more discussion on it.
MissBee Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 I've been trying to figure out several things that I believe led to my affair (and probably others' affairs as well). For me it was not making a decision to leave an unhappy marriage before staying got to a point of desperation combined with timing, a chance emotional connection with someone, at the same time. That's how, but it doesn't answer why. I need to understand why so that I can make choices and take actions that keep me from getting that confused and unhappy, so I do not make another bad decision that can hurt so many people. On the outside looking in it seems pretty simple. Leave the marriage and start over. Simple. In theory it's simple. Not an excuse, again it's me trying to understand. So coincidentally I was reading something, just because it's something I wanted to read, but I think I might have found the answer. It has to do with the id, ego, and super ego all working together in tandem with the magic combination of circumstances. I'm no expert on this stuff but when I was reading about the id, ego, and super ego, this idea hit me. The idea is that if you are in an unhappy marriage, your id gets deprived. But you endure it and can't bring yourself to leave because your super ego would never allow it. And it becomes a battle between the two that makes you miserable and you can't find your way out. The entire time your ego is making your decisions for you as the id and super ego pull you in two ways. You get to a point where you're so starved and that connection with someone else comes into the picture and your ego for the first time makes a decision that satisfies your id (to cheat) But your super ego is now crushing you from two angles, 1. Your inability to leave because you feel abandoning your marriage is wrong (per your super ego) and 2. Cheating is wrong (per your super ego). So now you have created an even more miserable situation in which you are not only held captive in a bad situation by trying to do what's right by your super ego, but also doing what you want by your id. So the lesson I see, is that sometimes we need to examine more closely why we hold certain beliefs about what is right or wrong. Is staying right just because my super ego says marriage is commitment for life? Maybe sometimes what our rigid super egos label as 'right' are in fact wrong and force us down a path of one bad decision after the other. Wonder if anyone else who has had an affair can identify with this explanation. Great post! I can relate to that conceptualization in general of human behavior, choices, actions, inaction and dilemmas.
AnotherRound Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 Ah, Freud! He's my theorist, as his theories make a LOT of sense to me. And I would agree. Obviously, if divorcing and leaving was "easy" as some seem to believe, then that is what would happen more often than affairs. I think statistically, more affairs than divorces are happening - or they are close. That proves to me that it's not an easy decision. And I agree that it's a pull of several different things. However you conceptualize it - with the id, ego, and super-ego, or some other way. It's very simplistic to say that someone just needs to make a clean decision when there are SO many factors to consider and so many issues at play. Not just someone's own internal struggle - but the struggle due to the way society views marriage (as forever, no matter what), and children that are involved (believing that divorce will permanently damage a child beyond functioning), etc. etc. In any affair of the heart, there are no clear cut answers. If there were, there would be less pain, and less music and poems as obviously, it causes confusion for MANY. We all struggle with what we want, what we need, and what we think we are supposed to have and do. Freud gave it a good theory, and I think you summed it up excellently. Thanks for this as I absolutely love when psychology is applied to our lives and makes so much sense!
AnotherRound Posted October 3, 2012 Posted October 3, 2012 PS If this interested you, you should read more about Freud's theories and research. He has some really interesting stuff on libido - and doesn't apply to libido to simply sex. He had a way of explaining libido as any force for us humans to meet a necessary need (not a want, but a physiological need). For instance, hunger, thirst, etc. It's very interesting stuff in that we are still very biological creatures - and our needs will be met, one way or another, bc they HAVE to be. When they are not - when we fight that natural libido - we become dysfunctional in that we find unhealthy ways to meet those needs, or we deny them which leads to all sorts of mental health issues (depression, anxiety, etc). This has always interested me bc I have felt that Id strongly at times, and have known that it wasn't simply a "want", but a need. A biological need that I was wired for since the beginning of man. The need for sex is involved in this, as is the need for emotional connection to other humans, and touch - unless someone is truly RAD or something along those lines. Anyway, sorry to go on - just I'm a huge Freud fan. I know that a lot of his techniques were crude, but he is the inventor of Psychoanalysis, the father of it we call him, and he was pioneering his way. But I read a LOT of his works and he was so dead on at times that it is almost eerie. His discoveries were crazy intelligent and insightful - and explained human behaviors so well and so accurately. Man, now I'm going to have to get out some of his writings again and read them - again... lol. Sorry for the T/J... Love me some Freud!
Spark1111 Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 I've been trying to figure out several things that I believe led to my affair (and probably others' affairs as well). For me it was not making a decision to leave an unhappy marriage before staying got to a point of desperation combined with timing, a chance emotional connection with someone, at the same time. That's how, but it doesn't answer why. I need to understand why so that I can make choices and take actions that keep me from getting that confused and unhappy, so I do not make another bad decision that can hurt so many people. On the outside looking in it seems pretty simple. Leave the marriage and start over. Simple. In theory it's simple. Not an excuse, again it's me trying to understand. So coincidentally I was reading something, just because it's something I wanted to read, but I think I might have found the answer. It has to do with the id, ego, and super ego all working together in tandem with the magic combination of circumstances. I'm no expert on this stuff but when I was reading about the id, ego, and super ego, this idea hit me. The idea is that if you are in an unhappy marriage, your id gets deprived. But you endure it and can't bring yourself to leave because your super ego would never allow it. And it becomes a battle between the two that makes you miserable and you can't find your way out. The entire time your ego is making your decisions for you as the id and super ego pull you in two ways. You get to a point where you're so starved and that connection with someone else comes into the picture and your ego for the first time makes a decision that satisfies your id (to cheat) But your super ego is now crushing you from two angles, 1. Your inability to leave because you feel abandoning your marriage is wrong (per your super ego) and 2. Cheating is wrong (per your super ego). So now you have created an even more miserable situation in which you are not only held captive in a bad situation by trying to do what's right by your super ego, but also doing what you want by your id. So the lesson I see, is that sometimes we need to examine more closely why we hold certain beliefs about what is right or wrong. Is staying right just because my super ego says marriage is commitment for life? Maybe sometimes what our rigid super egos label as 'right' are in fact wrong and force us down a path of one bad decision after the other. Wonder if anyone else who has had an affair can identify with this explanation. fBS here.... I like Freud, I do. But if I want to grow in strength, I need to identify my weaknesses (not that hard) but I also need to identify why and how I grew weak in those areas that allowed me to make poor choices that ultimately hurt me.(MUC, much harder) I like the rule of five WHYS, and it is what a Freudian will eventually get to after he or she has let me talk for years while muttering, ahem, ahem....Then, when the epiphany hits, they will dance around the room, but I could have gotten there so much quicker. For example: I allowed my children to live and sponge off us for way longer than they should have. I knew it, but I did it anyway. WHY? Because I had an unstable childhood and vowed to give them a perfect childhood. WHY? Because I wanted to give them the stability and opportunities no one ever gave me. WHY? Because I wanted them to feel confident and unconditionally loved, like I wished I had felt in childhood. WHY? Because I was trying to relive the fantasy of the childhood I wished I had, even when I knew they were not becoming as independent as they should have, and I realized this was doing them a disservice. WHY? Because it made me feel important to be the center of their world, and I needed to feel important because I was never important enough in childhood to either my mother or my father who were dealing with their own issues and who were somewhat selfish and neglectful towards me, the youngest by many years. EPIPHANY! Much better mom today and have since cut the apron strings! Kids are better for it too! A Freudian counselor would have let me take YEARS to get here. I got here in under a year..... RULE of FIVE WHYS....be brutally honest. It is faster towards change. Now that I can identify it, I can avoid it and make strong steps to not fall into it again. 5
AnotherRound Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 fBS here.... I like Freud, I do. But if I want to grow in strength, I need to identify my weaknesses (not that hard) but I also need to identify why and how I grew weak in those areas that allowed me to make poor choices that ultimately hurt me.(MUC, much harder) I like the rule of five WHYS, and it is what a Freudian will eventually get to after he or she has let me talk for years while muttering, ahem, ahem....Then, when the epiphany hits, they will dance around the room, but I could have gotten there so much quicker. For example: I allowed my children to live and sponge off us for way longer than they should have. I knew it, but I did it anyway. WHY? Because I had an unstable childhood and vowed to give them a perfect childhood. WHY? Because I wanted to give them the stability and opportunities no one ever gave me. WHY? Because I wanted them to feel confident and unconditionally loved, like I wished I had felt in childhood. WHY? Because I was trying to relive the fantasy of the childhood I wished I had, even when I knew they were not becoming as independent as they should have, and I realized this was doing them a disservice. WHY? Because it made me feel important to be the center of their world, and I needed to feel important because I was never important enough in childhood to either my mother or my father who were dealing with their own issues and who were somewhat selfish and neglectful towards me, the youngest by many years. EPIPHANY! Much better mom today and have since cut the apron strings! Kids are better for it too! A Freudian counselor would have let me take YEARS to get here. I got here in under a year..... RULE of FIVE WHYS....be brutally honest. It is faster towards change. Now that I can identify it, I can avoid it and make strong steps to not fall into it again. This is a good technique you present, but obvs wouldn't work for everyone. I use a lot of Freud, and it has never taken me years w any client. In fact, I am often limted to 6 sessions or less, and have fantastic success rates. Freud is used more as a theory as psychoanalysis is pretty rare, and not really what we do today. I simply use his theory as a base of understanding of human behavior, along w other theories Bottom line is, it doesn't matter how you get there, as long as you do. Some people have very complicated histories and/or issues, and years may be needed. Most people can get a lot of progress in very few sessions.
mercy Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 fBS here.... I like Freud, I do. But if I want to grow in strength, I need to identify my weaknesses (not that hard) but I also need to identify why and how I grew weak in those areas that allowed me to make poor choices that ultimately hurt me.(MUC, much harder) I like the rule of five WHYS, and it is what a Freudian will eventually get to after he or she has let me talk for years while muttering, ahem, ahem....Then, when the epiphany hits, they will dance around the room, but I could have gotten there so much quicker. For example: I allowed my children to live and sponge off us for way longer than they should have. I knew it, but I did it anyway. WHY? Because I had an unstable childhood and vowed to give them a perfect childhood. WHY? Because I wanted to give them the stability and opportunities no one ever gave me. WHY? Because I wanted them to feel confident and unconditionally loved, like I wished I had felt in childhood. WHY? Because I was trying to relive the fantasy of the childhood I wished I had, even when I knew they were not becoming as independent as they should have, and I realized this was doing them a disservice. WHY? Because it made me feel important to be the center of their world, and I needed to feel important because I was never important enough in childhood to either my mother or my father who were dealing with their own issues and who were somewhat selfish and neglectful towards me, the youngest by many years. EPIPHANY! Much better mom today and have since cut the apron strings! Kids are better for it too! A Freudian counselor would have let me take YEARS to get here. I got here in under a year..... RULE of FIVE WHYS....be brutally honest. It is faster towards change. Now that I can identify it, I can avoid it and make strong steps to not fall into it again. What an enlightening post, thank you!
2sunny Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 I'm all for Freud - and info, in fact I love it. But knowing why never changed a thing for me. The question that always helped me was "HOW am I NEVER going to make it this way again?" That one question set me on a new path and a ton of change- it's been absolutely fantastic to figure out how to change everything in my life! I never want to go back! Asking "why" kept me stuck and in a pity party for too many years... It didn't work for me.
seren Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 I would be wary of using just one of Freud's theory's to try and explain any actions, his work is so much more than Id, Ego, Superego. I have recently read PSYCHOANALYTIC CONCEPTIONS OF MARRIAGE AND MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS written by Zorica Marcovic, which discusses Freud, amongst others and explanations of types of marriage and types of affairs, it makes for interesting reading for those interested in academic analysis of marital relationships. This comes at it from possibly a different angle, but to understand the A, I think one needs to understand the dynamics of the marital relationship too. I always 'preferred' good old Maslow or Eriksson and am trying to get my head around Kohlberg's, Stages of Moral Development theory. Not in relation to A's in particular, just as another way of passing the hours with Insomnia. Interesting thread. 1
Spark1111 Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 I'm all for Freud - and info, in fact I love it. But knowing why never changed a thing for me. The question that always helped me was "HOW am I NEVER going to make it this way again?" That one question set me on a new path and a ton of change- it's been absolutely fantastic to figure out how to change everything in my life! I never want to go back! Asking "why" kept me stuck and in a pity party for too many years... It didn't work for me. Ahhh, this is cognitive behavorial therapy and is the most used today. Learn to change the behavior, and then the WHY doesn't much matter! However, for those of us who keeping touching the hot stove.....and justifying it....a little or a lot of WHY may be necessary!
Spark1111 Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 I would be wary of using just one of Freud's theory's to try and explain any actions, his work is so much more than Id, Ego, Superego. I have recently read PSYCHOANALYTIC CONCEPTIONS OF MARRIAGE AND MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS written by Zorica Marcovic, which discusses Freud, amongst others and explanations of types of marriage and types of affairs, it makes for interesting reading for those interested in academic analysis of marital relationships. This comes at it from possibly a different angle, but to understand the A, I think one needs to understand the dynamics of the marital relationship too. I always 'preferred' good old Maslow or Eriksson and am trying to get my head around Kohlberg's, Stages of Moral Development theory. Not in relation to A's in particular, just as another way of passing the hours with Insomnia. Interesting thread. Ooooh Seren, even the title makes my head hurt! How sleepless are you? Lately reading lots of interesting stuff on the net regarding attachment styles....formed in infancy and carried over to every relationship thereafter. How you attach(or not) is how one PERCEIVES love. Fascinating.
MissBee Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 I would be wary of using just one of Freud's theory's to try and explain any actions, his work is so much more than Id, Ego, Superego. I have recently read PSYCHOANALYTIC CONCEPTIONS OF MARRIAGE AND MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS written by Zorica Marcovic, which discusses Freud, amongst others and explanations of types of marriage and types of affairs, it makes for interesting reading for those interested in academic analysis of marital relationships. This comes at it from possibly a different angle, but to understand the A, I think one needs to understand the dynamics of the marital relationship too. I always 'preferred' good old Maslow or Eriksson and am trying to get my head around Kohlberg's, Stages of Moral Development theory. Not in relation to A's in particular, just as another way of passing the hours with Insomnia. Interesting thread. Thanks for sharing! Actually perusing this article right now...
Radagast Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 I've been trying to figure out several things that I believe led to my affair (and probably others' affairs as well). For me it was not making a decision to leave an unhappy marriage before staying got to a point of desperation combined with timing, a chance emotional connection with someone, at the same time. That's how, but it doesn't answer why. I need to understand why so that I can make choices and take actions that keep me from getting that confused and unhappy, so I do not make another bad decision that can hurt so many people. On the outside looking in it seems pretty simple. Leave the marriage and start over. Simple. In theory it's simple. Not an excuse, again it's me trying to understand. So coincidentally I was reading something, just because it's something I wanted to read, but I think I might have found the answer. It has to do with the id, ego, and super ego all working together in tandem with the magic combination of circumstances. I'm no expert on this stuff but when I was reading about the id, ego, and super ego, this idea hit me. The idea is that if you are in an unhappy marriage, your id gets deprived. But you endure it and can't bring yourself to leave because your super ego would never allow it. And it becomes a battle between the two that makes you miserable and you can't find your way out. The entire time your ego is making your decisions for you as the id and super ego pull you in two ways. You get to a point where you're so starved and that connection with someone else comes into the picture and your ego for the first time makes a decision that satisfies your id (to cheat) But your super ego is now crushing you from two angles, 1. Your inability to leave because you feel abandoning your marriage is wrong (per your super ego) and 2. Cheating is wrong (per your super ego). So now you have created an even more miserable situation in which you are not only held captive in a bad situation by trying to do what's right by your super ego, but also doing what you want by your id. So the lesson I see, is that sometimes we need to examine more closely why we hold certain beliefs about what is right or wrong. Is staying right just because my super ego says marriage is commitment for life? Maybe sometimes what our rigid super egos label as 'right' are in fact wrong and force us down a path of one bad decision after the other. Wonder if anyone else who has had an affair can identify with this explanation. This certainly resonates for me.
2sunny Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 Ahhh, this is cognitive behavorial therapy and is the most used today. Learn to change the behavior, and then the WHY doesn't much matter! However, for those of us who keeping touching the hot stove.....and justifying it....a little or a lot of WHY may be necessary! The "why" kept me stuck for a few years - in a pity party - not useful! The "how" can I NEVER make it look like that again brought about change - which gave me hope - and everything new and different and much better! IF I had stayed with the need to know "why" I would have been TRYING to make sense of a narcissist.. Which would have never helped me MOVE FORWARD. I realized I didn't NEED to know why... I just needed to not DO that again - by making different CHOICES - it changed EVERYTHINg!
Owl Posted October 4, 2012 Posted October 4, 2012 Ahhh, this is cognitive behavorial therapy and is the most used today. Learn to change the behavior, and then the WHY doesn't much matter! However, for those of us who keeping touching the hot stove.....and justifying it....a little or a lot of WHY may be necessary! You know...this has pretty much always been the basis for the advice I give here on LS. People often love to get wrapped up in the "why"...because it allows the to avoid focusing on what they need to change. Focusing on the "why"...and not the doing...is a great avoidance mechanism, and one used by a great many...especially here on LS. Understanding the why can help people who truly are dysfunctional and fall into the same behaviors over and over again...but for many, they need to FIX the situation FIRST...and then focus on the "why". It's like in medicine...treating the disease is important, but if the patient dies from the symptoms because you spent all of your effort trying to identify the specific illness without administering treatment for the life-threatening symptoms. Sometimes it doesn't matter...treat the symptoms first before the patient is dead. THEN solve for the larger problem.
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