Infidelity and custody of children

[2sunny]

I don't agree with you at all, but enough of that. Hope your kids were able to maintain good relationship with their father. Your marriage was dysfunctional before his affair so no need to say that he turned your lives upside down.

 

You couldn't be more wrong.

 

Quit making such extreme assumptions.

 

I don't need you to agree with me - this is MY truth - my experience.

 

Yes, they have a good R with their Dad.

[Silly_Girl]

Sounds like you are covering for the infidelity.

 

It's not yours to cover. Kids can understand that things don't always work out like fairy tails.

 

Come on - they also learn that there SHOLD BE consequences for bad behavior.

 

In the end - it's completely useful to allow them to understand that they are loved by both parents and state the plan that will happen so that THEY feel safe.

 

They usually want to know that they are safe and loved.

 

My ex didn't cheat on me. He's just a tw@t. Unfortunately my son will find that out for himself one day. I'm not going to hide things, but I don't need to be pointing fingers either. I don't need to taint his childhood in that way. Life's tough enough.

 

The age of 9/10 was given and I would not expect to lay blame on one parent or another with a child of that age, no matter how much 'bad parent' jolly well deserved it.

[2sunny]

My ex didn't cheat on me. He's just a tw@t. Unfortunately my son will find that out for himself one day. I'm not going to hide things, but I don't need to be pointing fingers either. I don't need to taint his childhood in that way. Life's tough enough.

 

The age of 9/10 was given and I would not expect to lay blame on one parent or another with a child of that age, no matter how much 'bad parent' jolly well deserved it.

 

So was it you who cheated SG? And if so, does your child know?

[Silly_Girl]

So was it you who cheated SG? And if so, does your child know?

 

Neither of us cheated. I feel VERY strongly about how children are treated upon dissolution of a relationship. I had 2 very scarred stepchildren for 8 years and I did most of the work to fight (hard) through the courts with their best interests at heart. I have seen the kids suffer many, many times and I think 99% of the time it's because of how the adults conduct themselves.

[seren]

I do think courts are biased when awarding custody and it is rarely that a father gets custody, even though they are seemingly the 'better parent' and better able to meet the needs of the children. I worked as a social worker for many years and there were many, many times when I couldn't understand the decision of the courts.

 

Infidelity does have repercussions for the children, even if they aren't aware there is infidelity. It appears that the WS distancing themselves from the BS has day to day consequences and the spare time spent with the AP takes time away from somewhere, usually the family. I also have seen many instances when the leaving the family by the AP and moving in or introducing the children to the new relationship hasn't been thought through from the child's viewpoint.

 

It also strikes me that while adults are expected to be given space to grieve the loss of a relationship and to endlessly asking themselves why and why not them, that not enough thought is given to the child asking the same questions. This is especially needed when the new relationship has a child within it.

 

I don't think any details need to be given, but I do think that it is the responsibility of both parents to put aside their differences and explain the why to children, in an age appropriate way. If this doesn't happen, children as do adults, have a way of explaining the situation that can see them putting the blame on themselves. This is far more common than most people might think.

 

I don't think a parent should be able to remove the child from the other having daily access, that to me, is the needs of one parent being met and not necessarily the needs of both or the children.

[Emilia]

Neither of us cheated. I feel VERY strongly about how children are treated upon dissolution of a relationship. I had 2 very scarred stepchildren for 8 years and I did most of the work to fight (hard) through the courts with their best interests at heart. I have seen the kids suffer many, many times and I think 99% of the time it's because of how the adults conduct themselves.

 

I follow your posts sometimes and I think you are an amazingly upright person. Very commendable.

[frozensprouts]

I find it interesting that there are two vies to those that seem to be polar opposites...and that the lines seem to be drawn between those who participated in an affair and those who are betrayed spouses/ didn't participate in an affair.

 

What if the children find out through other ways than being told by the betrayed spouse? Should they continue to be lied to? What does that teach them?

 

I'm not saying that children need to be told their parent cheated, but I find it ironic that the notion of hiding it from the children is to "protect them from harm of from feeling bad about the parent- father or mother- who cheated"...seems like closing the door after the horse already ran out of the barn. They will be hurt no matter what, due to the actions of the person who cheated.

 

In reality, all of this is off topic to the original post anyway. The question was whether or not infidelity should be considered when awarding custody. In my opinion, the best interests of the child should be top priority...if the cheating is interfering with a mother or fathers ability to parent, then yes, it should be considered ( and in many cases, a cheating spouse does become " a bad parent"...not simply because they cheated, but because of their behavior has affected the other areas of heir life...like parenting.

[todreaminblue]

I am of the opinion that, as long as a parent is fit to raise children, that in the case of divorce where infidelity is involved, and can be proven, the non-cheating spouse should get first choice at custody. (if both parents cheated, then I guess its up for grabs)

 

My thinking is I would think a court, if they truly care about the well being of the children, would not want kids raised by an unscrupulous parent.

 

Also, aside from infidelity, I think if a custodial parent wants to move thousands of miles and take the children away from the other parent, that the parent that wishes to leave should relinquish custody to the non-custodial parent if the non-custodial parent wishes so. I have seen too many custodial parents, mainly mothers, that will move too many miles away making regular visitation impossible for the non-custodial parent. I just don't see how that can or should be allowed. If the custodial parent wants to move, then move, but leave the kids behind(so long as the kids want that as well). The non-custodial parent should have insult added to injury. Its bad enough they are already every other weekend parents, they now have to see their kids maybe twice a year if they are lucky?

 

Thoughts?

 

my ex cheated , left me with devastationi had three girls h ewas nasty when we first broke up...i had hospital intervention....he was sleeping with the lady he is with now......while my girls dealt with intolerable grief and confusion....being looked after at night by my friend because th egas got cut off....i moved away as soon as i was better...we are courteous to each other now but it wasnt that way in the beginning he threatened me with court.....he would have lost....

 

why should i relinquish custody because i moved 200okm away to save myself and the girls..bring us out of devastation i did what i had to do.........they are at the age to say where they could decide to live if they wanted to live with him i would let them.....break my heart but i would let them go....they of course want to stay with me ....i pay half the air fares for them to see their dad any time he wants to see them....i am lenient with child support ...i owe nothing more...he contacts them nearly every day.....i have done my bit out of respect for him but ultimately respect for myself and my girls.I have full uncontested custody he is in agreement.....deb

[elcklan]

I hope this isn't off topic but my mother did the standard thing, brought me up to respect my dad, never indicated he had cheated on her and always presented it like they just didn't work out. When I grew up and he cheated on my stepmother too it all came out and I am not pleased that I wasn't told. I admired that man and saw characteristics in boys that reminded me of him and it influenced my choices in ways that were harmful. I believe it contributed to my being a BS. If I could ask her to do it differently she should have told me he cheated on her when I was 11 or 12. I would have been better off knowing. I dislike my father now and have for 20 years. He is truly a cheater trough and through. He does not deserve the love of any of his children because of how he treated their mothers (and to some extent us).

You believe not knowing about your father being a cheater contributed to your being a BS??? But you are staying with your husband after all. You need to start working on yourself instead of blaming others.

[Summer Breeze]

When I left my xH I was told by my counsellor to let my daughter know the D was happening and invest her in our future together. Let her know Mom and Dad weren't happy and it was our mess and not hers. She was right when she said that as she grew the questions would come and she would get to the truth in her own way and time. She was late teens when she figured it out but when she did figure it out she was ready for the information. I have to say I was hesitant when she told me to handle it this way. I wanted to always lean the truth to her for her age. Looking back I sincerely think the counsellor was right on with her advice. I also do think it depends on the kids too.

 

With the experience I had as a BS I have to say I'd probably give the same advice I got for my child.

[elcklan]

Key phrase...contributed, not blame. My father being an alcoholic contributed to my decision to marry Mr. Messy (he didn't drink)..it was one of the traits that was on my list in choosing a spouse. Had I known that his family history (which he did not know by the way until his 40s) was one of cheating...I might have gone in a different direction. Who knows.

 

But to say that there aren't contributions to what happens to us and the choices we make also implies that the excuses for cheating that lists the contributions to that choice to cheat are not valid either. If I apply your above post to those who cheated because of sex, money, emotional unavailability....they should stop blaming the BS and work on themselves...right?

 

My FIL did not cheat but he was forced to give up custody of his children when he chose not to stay. That is not to say that my MIL was a poor parent and she is a fantastic woman who not only was a support to me but called her son on his mess and told him what the consequences would be because she had lived it. I don't know what the answer is but I do know that taking responsibility for the fallout of ones actions and the effect those actions have on all involved.

Your father being alcoholic contributed to your decision not to marry a person who might be alcoholic. That is different. She says she dislikes her father and have for 20 years, and says she would be better off if she knew when she was 11 or 12. Now she stays with her husband after his affair and somehow her father contributed to her being BS?? So if she knew at 12 she wouldn't be BS or she woundn't stay with him, or what?

I say if there was long term cheating both are at blame. We all lie in beds we've made for ourselves.

[AnotherRound]

I find it interesting that there are two vies to those that seem to be polar opposites...and that the lines seem to be drawn between those who participated in an affair and those who are betrayed spouses/ didn't participate in an affair.

 

What if the children find out through other ways than being told by the betrayed spouse? Should they continue to be lied to? What does that teach them?

 

I'm not saying that children need to be told their parent cheated, but I find it ironic that the notion of hiding it from the children is to "protect them from harm of from feeling bad about the parent- father or mother- who cheated"...seems like closing the door after the horse already ran out of the barn. They will be hurt no matter what, due to the actions of the person who cheated.

 

In reality, all of this is off topic to the original post anyway. The question was whether or not infidelity should be considered when awarding custody. In my opinion, the best interests of the child should be top priority...if the cheating is interfering with a mother or fathers ability to parent, then yes, it should be considered ( and in many cases, a cheating spouse does become " a bad parent"...not simply because they cheated, but because of their behavior has affected the other areas of heir life...like parenting.

 

I think the topic is - does infidelity make someone a bad enough parent, on its own, to justify that parent losing all parental rights to their children. Which obviously leads into a discussion about what makes someone a "bad" parent - which is completely subjective (as proven by this thread) - and if that warrants a person losing access to their own children. I disagree that a person who has an affair should automatically lose their parental rights. I think it's simplistic and unrealistic and judgmental to a degree that would be harmful for the children. This doesn't come from me being a FOW, or a FBW, it comes from me being a mental health professional who has a lot of experience working with children and understanding their processing abilities and the desire to damage them as little as possible. Obviously, any time a marriage breaks up, there is going to be some effect on the children involved - I do not think that adding further damage by revealing the affair to the children or taking their other parent away is less damaging - but exactly the opposite.

 

Any decision made in regards to children - including allowed parental time - should always be made in the best interest of the child - not the two adults involved in the marriage. I see no positive to filling any child in on the private lives of their parents, but can see the damage that will cause - same as the damage of keeping a child from their other parent simply bc the B parent doesn't "agree" with the "morals" of the W parent. Depriving a child of their relationship with the W parent, does nothing FOR the child - only TO the child, and it's not positive. The child's relationship with the W parent is completely separate from the B parent's relationship with that person. If it's not, then there's a HUGE problem there - and it will end up having to be dealt with psychologically and emotionally at some point - or will show up as dysfunction... guaranteed.

[amaysngrace]

A parents job is to teach their children in the ways they'd hope they'd grow.

 

This doesn't only include the happy things in life. By pretending something doesn't exist doesn't make it nonexistent.

 

My children learned about strangers when they were five. That was not a pleasant conversation but they understood. To keep children away from the facts of life is not setting them up to be happy but actually can endanger them by being naive.

 

There's a balance though. You should approach these sensitive issues with their best interests in mind.

 

If you blast your ex out of anger then you're too emotional to be having any discussion with your child IMO.

[elcklan]

Yes, her father contributed to her being a BS not her choice to stay with her husband. And we will disagree on all facts especially the one about long terming cheating...I see it as long term cowardice nothing more.

Could you explain how he contributed? What if I say her mother contributed to her being BS?

[standtall]

 

A child should know what actions happened to ruin the M! They can learn that a parent has self respect and a healthy boundary that shows YOU'RE not WILLING to live with the cheater and PRETEND that's ok!

 

If you don't state honestly what happened - the child often is left to wonder - and there's no peace of mind in that!

 

And kids have a right to be mad at the cheating parent - that's normal - they should be mad! They should know that one parent broke the vow.

 

Wow..this reminds me about a story in the Bible about the judgement of Solomon...Kings 3:16-3:28...except instead of cutting the child in half physically, this post indicates that it should be done emotionally.

Edited October 4, 2012 by standtall

[Summer Breeze]

A parents job is to teach their children in the ways they'd hope they'd grow.

 

This doesn't only include the happy things in life. By pretending something doesn't exist doesn't make it nonexistent.

 

My children learned about strangers when they were five. That was not a pleasant conversation but they understood. To keep children away from the facts of life is not setting them up to be happy but actually can endanger them by being naive.

 

There's a balance though. You should approach these sensitive issues with their best interests in mind.

 

If you blast your ex out of anger then you're too emotional to be having any discussion with your child IMO.

 

I think the bolded is absolutely right on. The problem is each person will have different views on what is the 'best interest' for children. Each parent will see it differently and parents with more than 1 child will see it more than 1 way. Perfect comment because it does highlight how subjective the discussion and decisions are.

[amaysngrace]

I think the bolded is absolutely right on. The problem is each person will have different views on what is the 'best interest' for children. Each parent will see it differently and parents with more than 1 child will see it more than 1 way. Perfect comment because it does highlight how subjective the discussion and decisions are.

 

It sounds as if some here want to point a finger of blame to alleviate their own guilt of leaving and make it the other persons fault and not their own. I'm not saying who's right or who's wrong, just that breaking up your family can bring strong feelings of guilt regardless of why you left.

 

They should just speak openly with their children about how the children are feeling. Relate to them and tell them they're sad too but try not to blame anybody. Mostly they should let the children know the children are not to blame.

 

And maybe even apologize to the children for putting them in this situation. It was their decision to leave and they did pick them to marry. At least own that.

Edited October 4, 2012 by amaysngrace

[standtall]

 

They should just speak openly with their children about how the children are feeling. Relate to them and tell them they're sad too but try not to blame anybody. Mostly they should let the children know the children are not to blame.

 

And maybe even apologize to the children for putting them in this situation. It was their decision to leave and they did pick them to marry. At least own that.

Yea right..that doesn't work with a 4 yr old, 6 yr old, 8 yr old, 10 yr old..it's just is not that simple. Kids do not rationalize like adults do. I swear some people are so betrayed, bitter, and angry it clouds everything. I couldn't disagree with you more.

[Decorative]

Yea right..that doesn't work with a 4 yr old, 6 yr old, 8 yr old, 10 yr old..it's just is not that simple. Kids do not rationalize like adults do. I swear some people are so betrayed, bitter, and angry it clouds everything. I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

The key is *some* people are so betrayed and bitter . Some people are not, and are able to put their children's best interest and family unity above it, and do what is right for all members of their family so they can move forward.

 

My youngest was 8 at the time of disclosure. out of all of my children? He probably has the closest relationship with my spouse after all of this, although all their relationships are good. Clearing the air so he stopped thinking he did something wrong did wonders for all of that. Combined with my spouse's clear and sincere remorse and efforts at pulling us all back together, and my patience and work to help rebuild, it was a positive decision.

[amaysngrace]

Yea right..that doesn't work with a 4 yr old, 6 yr old, 8 yr old, 10 yr old..it's just is not that simple. Kids do not rationalize like adults do. I swear some people are so betrayed, bitter, and angry it clouds everything. I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

Projecting?

[elcklan]

Might be entirely possible and more than likely. Mine contributed to the thoughts of staying married no matter how one is treated. Not with her words but her actions. Years later I realize they loved each other but what I saw shaped my attitudes....it is the truth for most of us. What we see and "think" we see shapes us.

I agree with that. But see actions speak more than words. In the case of affair when one decides to divorce they show children their point of view, so therefore it is enough to tell kids that marriage is not working and it is better to divorce without getting into details like why it doesn't work, who's fault, daddy cheats.. When kid is adult you can tell all the details you want but you already showed them what you think is right or wrong when you divorced.

[elcklan]

What? Did she drive her H to the hotel at which he was sharing a tryst with his AP?

I was saying how not knowing about dads cheating at age 11 or 12 contributed to being BS. I applaud mother for not telling to her daughter and I think it is neither one of them ( father or mother) fault that she is BS now. But in this case bentnotbroken said, that the father did contribute to it. I was challenging her thinking, that maybe the mother is at fault for her being BS, because she didn't tell at age 11 or 12.

[Silly_Girl]

I follow your posts sometimes and I think you are an amazingly upright person. Very commendable.

 

Sad to say, you're in the minority but I do appreciate the comment.

[frozensprouts]

I think the topic is - does infidelity make someone a bad enough parent, on its own, to justify that parent losing all parental rights to their children. Which obviously leads into a discussion about what makes someone a "bad" parent - which is completely subjective (as proven by this thread) - and if that warrants a person losing access to their own children. I disagree that a person who has an affair should automatically lose their parental rights. I think it's simplistic and unrealistic and judgmental to a degree that would be harmful for the children. This doesn't come from me being a FOW, or a FBW, it comes from me being a mental health professional who has a lot of experience working with children and understanding their processing abilities and the desire to damage them as little as possible. Obviously, any time a marriage breaks up, there is going to be some effect on the children involved - I do not think that adding further damage by revealing the affair to the children or taking their other parent away is less damaging - but exactly the opposite.

 

Any decision made in regards to children - including allowed parental time - should always be made in the best interest of the child - not the two adults involved in the marriage. I see no positive to filling any child in on the private lives of their parents, but can see the damage that will cause - same as the damage of keeping a child from their other parent simply bc the B parent doesn't "agree" with the "morals" of the W parent. Depriving a child of their relationship with the W parent, does nothing FOR the child - only TO the child, and it's not positive. The child's relationship with the W parent is completely separate from the B parent's relationship with that person. If it's not, then there's a HUGE problem there - and it will end up having to be dealt with psychologically and emotionally at some point - or will show up as dysfunction... guaranteed.

 

 

the point that I was making is that many times a wayward spouse's ability to parent seems to go right out the window when they are cheating...as a mental health professional, I'd be kind of surprised if you haven't seen this effect and what it did to the children you have counseled.

 

This has nothing to do with no agreeing with the morals of a wayward spouse...rather, it has everything to do with seeing the poor parenting behavior that a parent may exhibit when they are cheating ( time spent away from home, time spent arguing with mom/dad, being short tempered an irritable, etc.). All these effects can and do happen many times. What effect does this have on a child? How is acting like this making good parenting choices? Are these not affecting the child?

 

This is not to say that every parent who cheats is automatically a bad parent and shouldn't be given custody, but rather that how their behavior has affected their child should. The same is true for any other situation...alcohol consumption, excessive gambling, etc.- if a particular behavior that a parent has chosen to engage in has had negative consequences on a child, it should be taken into consideration.

 

From what I understand, where I live there is a program that all divorcing parents must go through as part of making custody arrangements...it deals with helping the children cope with divorce, etc. , as well as how to get along and work together as co-parents. Seems like a good idea to me, as well as getting family counseling as a unit to help the children deal with the situation.

[elcklan]

The key is *some* people are so betrayed and bitter . Some people are not, and are able to put their children's best interest and family unity above it, and do what is right for all members of their family so they can move forward.

 

My youngest was 8 at the time of disclosure. out of all of my children? He probably has the closest relationship with my spouse after all of this, although all their relationships are good. Clearing the air so he stopped thinking he did something wrong did wonders for all of that. Combined with my spouse's clear and sincere remorse and efforts at pulling us all back together, and my patience and work to help rebuild, it was a positive decision.

There are so many ways to tell kids it is not their fault. Sounds like trying to guilt tripping your husband