AnotherRound Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 Just doing a lot of reading tonight (as a result of another thread) and came across this. The information I've found is pretty limited so far, but from what I'm reading, this WAS me and exMM. What do you guys know about this type of affair? I'm going to keep researching, but thought that maybe some of you might already have info on it. I've never heard of it until today...
j'adore Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 It is my MM to a tee. He has been flip flopping with guilt throughout our affair, he loves me, but he is another person sometimes. He changes like the wind and shuts off. It is very painful for me but when I end it, he turns back into the man i love. It's about not being able to handle the guilt of having fallen in love with someone else and duty to the family dragging him back. What we have is very powerful but I don't expect he will ever give up his family for me now, although it has come close. It is all about having put his needs last for years and trying to pretend that those needs are not important and he can manage without - it lasts so long and then he is back. Just that it can be impossible to have any stability with them as they switch off emotionally.
Author AnotherRound Posted September 28, 2012 Author Posted September 28, 2012 It is my MM to a tee. He has been flip flopping with guilt throughout our affair, he loves me, but he is another person sometimes. He changes like the wind and shuts off. It is very painful for me but when I end it, he turns back into the man i love. It's about not being able to handle the guilt of having fallen in love with someone else and duty to the family dragging him back. What we have is very powerful but I don't expect he will ever give up his family for me now, although it has come close. It is all about having put his needs last for years and trying to pretend that those needs are not important and he can manage without - it lasts so long and then he is back. Just that it can be impossible to have any stability with them as they switch off emotionally. I had never heard of it before today... wondering how I missed this in the psychology world? Or, maybe I just wasn't paying attention??? I haven't been able to read a lot about it yet, but it seems to fit somewhat, so far. I think with exMM though, it was that he was torn between doing what was perceived as right (staying in the marriage) and what he needed to do to be emotionally fulfilled (the affair). And, he hasn't done the flip flopping back and forth. In all the time he and I were together, he NEVER ended it with me for a second - it was always me. I think he just kind of accepted that this was how his life was going to be. He didn't feel good about it, and he didn't like having to go between two of us - ideally, he would have liked to have his needs met within his marriage, but it just didn't happen. I'll have to read more about it. I did see that it mentioned that the OWs in these situations often have "daddy issues"... and I'm pretty sure that I do on some level. I've never been able to figure out exactly how I've acted those out in my life, but it will be interesting to read about and learn about. And, it may be information that I can use in the future - and especially if exMM and I are trying to have a relationship, we could both use the information for the betterment of us maybe. So, that's never a bad thing! And, I have never felt that he was torn between his stbxw and me, so maybe that doesn't fit. I think he was torn between two situations and two different personalities and communication styles - but it wasn't about me or her being better or worse - maybe just better or worse for him and his needs. And I've never seen exMM switch off emotionally... Very interesting stuff, glad I found it!
todreaminblue Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 Just doing a lot of reading tonight (as a result of another thread) and came across this. The information I've found is pretty limited so far, but from what I'm reading, this WAS me and exMM. What do you guys know about this type of affair? I'm going to keep researching, but thought that maybe some of you might already have info on it. I've never heard of it until today... split self affairs....hmmmmmmm.......in my opinion there is no split self affairs........unless that other self isn't aware........its easy to say though isnt it....harder to admit you were just wrong.....and deal with the guilt at splitting up a family.......its a cop out.....one heart one mind...one love....pretty simple.....often the answers and the truth are the simple answers and of course.....the simple truth......deb 2
Author AnotherRound Posted September 28, 2012 Author Posted September 28, 2012 split self affairs....hmmmmmmm.......in my opinion there is no split self affairs........unless that other self isn't aware........its easy to say though isnt it....harder to admit you were just wrong.....and deal with the guilt at splitting up a family.......its a cop out.....one heart one mind...one love....pretty simple.....often the answers and the truth are the simple answers and of course.....the simple truth......deb Hmmm.... well, I'm not sure, as I didn't split up a family. Someone else will have to answer that I guess. It doesn't appear to be about the person being "split" like as in split personalities (dissociative personality disorders). It appears that they are more torn between doing what is right (ie staying married no matter what) or getting their needs met (when that isn't going to happen if they stay in the marriage). Apparently, the psychology world has accepted that there are Split Self Affairs, but in your opinion it doesn't exist. If we can't agree on a fact, I'm not sure we can have a good discussion as we are starting at two different places (you're arguing whether or not something science says exists, and I"m accepting that what science says is true). But thanks for the input! 1
seren Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 It has always been my opinion that the Marriage is a different entity entirely than the Relationship. Marriage has a whole set of responsibilities that the relationship between the couple doesn't have. The demands of a marriage and all that it involves, children, finances, family, responsibility can see the couple focus so much on juggling all these in the air that the relationship can slip. A split self affair is, IMHO a symptom of a neglected or lost relationship. For sure there will be marriages where the drift from the relationship is so wide that unless there is a whole lot of breaching the gap done, then it is dead in the water. The A resulting from a split self is more likely to be hidden and long term as the marriage is still the primary focus, the split self A more of a distraction (a welcome one I am sure) and more likely to help the marriage to continue and flourish. Both needs being met without the SS having to address issues and change. I wonder if there are examples of split self A's where the WS has left and the AP's and they go on to have a long term marriage. Does the WS reach a point where the process repeats itself? After all, most marriages are built on a foundation of love, trust and a hope for lifelong harmony, I cannot see many people signing up for the long haul if there was a thought that the relationship and marriage would become so detached. I don't necessarily agree that guilt is the driving force for the split self remaining married, I think it is that the marriage is and can be a still happy, loving, fulfilling place, but that, especially more and more today, people expect the relationship within the marriage to remain as it was in the early days and sadly, without work it doesn't, the marriage problems can spill over into the relationship. The more I think of it, the more I think using split self as a reason to stay married and have an A is a cop out and selfish to both the BS, the marriage and the AP. It excuses (in the WS mind) the balancing of both. Interesting Another Round, I shall think on this further. Jennie Jennie was always interesting when discussing the mechanics of A's, I am sure she is still around and will chip in. 2
Author AnotherRound Posted September 28, 2012 Author Posted September 28, 2012 It has always been my opinion that the Marriage is a different entity entirely than the Relationship. Marriage has a whole set of responsibilities that the relationship between the couple doesn't have. The demands of a marriage and all that it involves, children, finances, family, responsibility can see the couple focus so much on juggling all these in the air that the relationship can slip. A split self affair is, IMHO a symptom of a neglected or lost relationship. For sure there will be marriages where the drift from the relationship is so wide that unless there is a whole lot of breaching the gap done, then it is dead in the water. The A resulting from a split self is more likely to be hidden and long term as the marriage is still the primary focus, the split self A more of a distraction (a welcome one I am sure) and more likely to help the marriage to continue and flourish. Both needs being met without the SS having to address issues and change. I wonder if there are examples of split self A's where the WS has left and the AP's and they go on to have a long term marriage. Does the WS reach a point where the process repeats itself? After all, most marriages are built on a foundation of love, trust and a hope for lifelong harmony, I cannot see many people signing up for the long haul if there was a thought that the relationship and marriage would become so detached. I don't necessarily agree that guilt is the driving force for the split self remaining married, I think it is that the marriage is and can be a still happy, loving, fulfilling place, but that, especially more and more today, people expect the relationship within the marriage to remain as it was in the early days and sadly, without work it doesn't, the marriage problems can spill over into the relationship. The more I think of it, the more I think using split self as a reason to stay married and have an A is a cop out and selfish to both the BS, the marriage and the AP. It excuses (in the WS mind) the balancing of both. Interesting Another Round, I shall think on this further. Jennie Jennie was always interesting when discussing the mechanics of A's, I am sure she is still around and will chip in. What I bolded really stood out for me. As, this is what I have seen with my exMM (and others, including my own marriage to exH). In that, sometimes, when people think that they have a relationship "locked in" they stop working on it. (Which is why I so love your story of you and your H, bc you both realize the importance of nurturing that, and did the work and have been so successful!). I don't think exMM even knows what a split self affair is, as I've only just learned about it today (and I should have known about it before... I've dealt with these situations in my work, the characteristics, but never had a label for it). So, I think for him, from what I know of him, that he always felt torn between staying in the marriage bc that's what he thought he should do, but not wanting to stay in the marriage bc there wasn't any emotional connection. He never denied that he cared for his stbxw, and he praised her ability to run the house, raise the child, etc. So, in his mind, I think he felt like he needed two separate people to get his needs met. In that, his only complaint with the stbxw was the lack of emotional intimacy. As for this I wonder if there are examples of split self A's where the WS has left and the AP's and they go on to have a long term marriage. Does the WS reach a point where the process repeats itself?, according to what I read, there are many cases where the LT affair turns into a very happy marriage in these situations (no citations, I've been reading a LOT tonight, but google would pull it up easily) - But ONLY if the WS works on whatever the issues are in themselves that has caused them to believe that it is selfish or wrong to have emotional needs and to prioritize them sometimes. I also think this is more of a man's affair bc men are taught by our society (moreso than women, and not as much as before, but still to an extent) that they aren't supposed to have emotional needs - let alone "whine" about getting them met! So, I'm guessing if the WS doesn't realize why they had the affair, and doesn't do the IC and the work on resolving their own issues with having emotional needs and needing to have them met, then yes, the pattern will possibly repeat. From one website, Emily Brown was actually saying that she had seen a trend that marriages of the APs of these types of marriages were very happy and fullfilling if both the WS and the AP had put in the work (IC each, their own issues) and understanding and stating each other's needs and wants and expectations (which I think would be a recipe for success in ANY relationship!). 3
Author AnotherRound Posted September 28, 2012 Author Posted September 28, 2012 I don't necessarily agree that guilt is the driving force for the split self remaining married, Hmmm... I think I somewhat agree. I think it's a combination of things, guilt probably being one of them. Guilt about many things - having emotional needs in the first place, wanting/needing something that their marriage isn't or can't provide, etc. But from what I'm reading, it's more about appearances. Emily Brown also said that in these types of affairs, the BS is often also a split self. And often looks the other way. This seems to describe exMM and his marriage almost perfectly. Another reason that these types of affairs tend to last very LT. And, in my reading, I'm seeing that the affair that exMM had with me was most likely a split self affair, and the OW after me was the exit affair. He really pushed the envelope with the OW after me, in that he wasn't even trying to be discreet anymore. Even though he knew that if it became indiscreet, that his stbxw would not keep looking the other way. And, it explains the continued guilt he has expressed about "failing" his child, and not "doing enough" in the marriage before it got to the point that it wasn't fixable anymore. In that, he seems to still be struggling with the two things - doing the "right" thing, or finding emotional happiness - as the marriage and emotional happiness seem to be mutually exclusive in his case, and he would have to pick just one. Agh... I gotta get some coffee and stop reading, lol. But yes, think on it, and get back later. I so enjoy discussions with you! 1
seren Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 The key IMHO, is that no one expects to have to put work into maintaining the relationship part of the marriage, most enter into marriage with fluffy clouds, unicorns and thoughts of being the old couple still holding hands and dancing under the stars years down the line. What is left out, is that the old couple may very well have had their share of turmoil, but, in the old days, people didn't walk out or even expect tweety love to last forever. Not me I am afraid, I am an uncurable romantic. When the nuts and bolts of the marriage have settled, as in finances sorted, children settled, then very often, there is a refocusing on the relationship and time for all the hand holding etc. I wonder if split self affairs are a new thing, this sense of having it all I also wonder if the marriage could be stopped, freeze framed and the couple look at it as though a film or something, would they even recognise themselves and would they have the stamina or inclination to put in the hard work to rekindling what is not necessarily lost, but buried under marriage 'junk'. I don't and have never disputed that some A's are all about meeting a better fit, not that I agree with A's, but I do understand. I often wonder if the BS is seen in their role as, wife, mother, carer etc and the comfy side of the roles take precedent over the fun, exciting, sexy person still there also under the layers of roles ..... not rolls that's another type of layer entirely. Maybe the split self wants the return of the person he met an fell in love and just maybe they want that too, but are so caught up in roles that they cannot see the relationship for the marriage. Good subject choice 3
todreaminblue Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 Hmmm.... well, I'm not sure, as I didn't split up a family. Someone else will have to answer that I guess. It doesn't appear to be about the person being "split" like as in split personalities (dissociative personality disorders). It appears that they are more torn between doing what is right (ie staying married no matter what) or getting their needs met (when that isn't going to happen if they stay in the marriage). Apparently, the psychology world has accepted that there are Split Self Affairs, but in your opinion it doesn't exist. If we can't agree on a fact, I'm not sure we can have a good discussion as we are starting at two different places (you're arguing whether or not something science says exists, and I"m accepting that what science says is true). But thanks for the input! more that i dont understand the split self concept, which isn't new for me, but then i don't understand a lot of what science has to offer....considering to me emotions are not a science.....too variable..the mental health profession feels differently....i actually misunderstood your post altogether from what point you were coming from.......but you are right i cant argue what i dont get(what isnt clear to me)....i am not big on believing in what science has to offer ....not when it comes to emotive responses........best wishes i meant no disrespect....im sorry if it appeared that way.........deb
trinity1 Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 The essence of the split self affair to me is two individuals who in their family of origin used the survival technique of doing the right thing, being the good person, and to do that pushed their own needs aside. This has then become their identity. What's important to them is to have "the perfect family" where they are the good husband/father vs wife/mother. They sacrifice their own needs for this. When these two people get married to each other they tend to be partners in marriage, partners in raising a family, but do not share their most inner-self with each other. They have since young learnt to take care of such needs in private, away from others' eyes, since it is not consistent in their eyes with being the good person to care of your own needs. Thus having an EMR is right in line with how they are used to care for their own needs, in secret. They teach their children to do the right thing, and eventually you have an entire family doing the right thing, unless someone chooses to become a rebel of course. Then in their middle age the needs of one of the two spouses start to push to be satisfied, and an opportunity opens when this spouse meets an OP who is more in touch with his/her emotions. An EMR is born. The WS is now torn between the obligation to the family, the dream of the perfect family, and satisfying his/her own needs. The solution to this is not merely to move on to another partner. These issues have to be dealt with in depth. If the marriage is to continue, both spouses need to work with these issues since both have the same identical problem of desiring to be the good person. If the WS tries to move on to the new partner without having dealt with his/her issues, a flip-flopping between the spouse and the OP will take place. This is my take on split self affairs. I find that trying to understand the dynamics behind EMRs is helpful. It's not about finding excuses, it's about trying to understand dynamics. 5
trinity1 Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 (edited) I think what happens is the people for whom it is important to be considered the good guy pushing their own needs aside finally catches up with them. Thus the split self. How do you deal with these two seemingly incompatible needs? For a long time they are bound to do what they have always done, thus satisfying their own needs secretly while continuing to officially fulfill their duty. Most of us are indeed good people merely trying our best. Sometimes our best ain't that good. Hopefully we will reach our rock bottom eventually and do something about it. Edited September 28, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator removed quote to deleted post 1
Radagast Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 As for this , according to what I read, there are many cases where the LT affair turns into a very happy marriage in these situations (no citations, I've been reading a LOT tonight, but google would pull it up easily) - But ONLY if the WS works on whatever the issues are in themselves that has caused them to believe that it is selfish or wrong to have emotional needs and to prioritize them sometimes. I also think this is more of a man's affair bc men are taught by our society (moreso than women, and not as much as before, but still to an extent) that they aren't supposed to have emotional needs - let alone "whine" about getting them met! So, I'm guessing if the WS doesn't realize why they had the affair, and doesn't do the IC and the work on resolving their own issues with having emotional needs and needing to have them met, then yes, the pattern will possibly repeat. From one website, Emily Brown was actually saying that she had seen a trend that marriages of the APs of these types of marriages were very happy and fullfilling if both the WS and the AP had put in the work (IC each, their own issues) and understanding and stating each other's needs and wants and expectations (which I think would be a recipe for success in ANY relationship!). This is certainly true of my experience. 1
Mme. Chaucer Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 I don't buy the label "split self" for any behavior. Don't you think that all of us are sort of functioning as "split selves" when we do what we FEEL like doing even though we KNOW it is not "right" for us to do it? Like "cheating" on our diet, or gossiping, or serious things like having secretive sex and / or emotional relationships with people while we are married to other people. It sounds like a fake psyche label for "rationalizing," or "justifying." And for the very human condition that many of us often fall into of wanting two things at the same time that are mutually exclusive (like being thin and eating a lot of pastries, or having a wife and a mistress) and ACTING upon the want. Is that "split self" or just … a self indulgent human behavior? 2
Mme. Chaucer Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 For the record, my post probably comes off as negative and judgmental but honestly I don't mean it that way (for once! ). I'm serious; it seems many times we are pulled in two directions. Sometimes we pick one - and sometimes we try to encompass both. 1
veryhappy Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 (edited) Interesting read on self split affairs. I wasn't familiar with his model, I had read Mirakirschenbaum's which is more practical. My A was a split self A for him, and I am somewhat younger with unresolved father issues. The description fit my case, and it only confirms that he needs to address the issue within himself of being compulsive about doing the right thing to avoid disappointing people. There was a light bulb moment a while ago for me, when he said that when I stop contact and disappear he fears losing me, because ...he doesn't know how I am when he's not there. What I learned in this A is that if somebody fears something about me, that in my world sounds outrageous, they're actually talking about themselves. I was crushed realizing he was two selves, he went home to his merry life, where he felt he couldn't leave regardless of much all his fear dissipated with me. Edited September 28, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator removed reference to deleted post
Mme. Chaucer Posted September 28, 2012 Posted September 28, 2012 Different schools of psychology (for example, behaviorism vs Freudian vs cognitive) will not approach a question in the same way AT ALL. Even though the scientific method is striven for in psychology and much real scientific experimentation and data collection is employed, there is still a very unavoidable subjective element to it. I think we all are aware, if we're honest, that we can find an explanation or even an excuse for almost ANY behavior rooted in some "psychological" theory, and that many of us use the vast resources available at our fingertips these days to do just that. You see it a LOT on the dating forum, where "Evo-Psyche" seems to be a religion for some.
Author AnotherRound Posted September 28, 2012 Author Posted September 28, 2012 Interesting responses everyone. I know that there are people that don't "believe" in psychology, but I am not one of those people. I work in the field and have always been drawn to it bc it intrigues me - why we humans act the way that we do, what drives us. I tend to be very Freudian (and I know a lot of people misinterpret him to be all about sex) in that it makes sense to me, and his theories seem the "truest" to me. Although I can find value in most theories (especially the classic ones, not always the newer ones that haven't really stood the test of time or had the research yet). But in that Freud believed in libido of all kinds. Not just sexual libido - but describing libido as any urge to have any type of need fed. Hunger is libido to get food. Thirst is libido to get water. Etc. In that, all of our needs, from basic to complex, are driven by a biological need to have those needs met. To me, the needs of emotional intimacy are just as important as the so called biological needs that we will die if we don't have. Studies have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that most humans NEED human connection, human touch, and that it improves our "good" chemicals, decreases stress, releases chemicals only released during "bonding", and is VITAL to health. This theory makes a LOT of sense to me, and it fits a LOT of situations that I have seen and worked with. I don't consider psychology to be "excuses" or "justification" of anything. The point of classifying and examining and understanding patterns and trends is to understand - understanding does not mean excusing, or blaming, it just means having valuable information to improve oneself and one's coping skills and/or behaviors. And knowing WHY we do what we do is often important in that. It's an interesting theory, and I'm reading up on it prolifically. To me, it doesn't excuse anything, but it certainly helps me understand the why of the situations, and from there I can figure out the hows (to fix it, correct it, improve it) of the situations. I feel like I really discovered something here! lol Thanks for joining in, I enjoyed all of the responses! 1
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