Don't judge someone just because...

[waterwoman]

Doesn't it all come down to the old mantra about punishing the sin, not the sinner? H is by most lights a 'good man' - loyal, kind, loving, generous etc. But IMO he did a bad thing - he was unfaithful. Does it make him a bad man? No. I don't judge him. But I will judge his action.

[AnotherRound]

I disagree with a lot that is said here, lol. For me, my opinion of someone elses behaviors rarely goes beyond, would I do the same thing? I decide yes or no, and then I'm done. I don't go any further into concluding anything about them or their character. I just think of the situation and how I think I would react to it if it ever happened to me. Usually, I can see exactly why the person reacted that way, even if I wouldn't react the same way (or think I wouldn't).

 

So, I don't agree that you have to judge something to have an opinion on it. And I still don't believe that "everyone" judges, as I know that I make a very constant effort not to (not saying I'm not tempted to, but it feels wrong to me, so I try not to do it, and usually come to the conclusion that not only is it wrong, but that it's impossible for me to do so accurately).

 

I think many are defining judgment differently, perhaps for their own purposes, so that they feel better about doing so. Like, if it's unavoidable, and we HAVE to, and everyone does it - well then, those who rank "sins" perhaps rank it very low bc of these beliefs. I dunno, just a quote that struck me. I like it and will be hanging it on my office bulletin board with all the other quotes I have collected over the years. Hopefully it will cause some folks to think about judgment on a deeper level, examine why they feel the need to do it, and possibly realize that it's futile anyway.

 

Thanks for the discussion!

[AnotherRound]

I agree with much of bringontherain's post.

 

There is a very fine line between judging and an opinion. The line is often blurred. Actually I would say that one must make some sort of a judgement call in order to have an opinion.

 

A judgement is in itself not a bad thing, it's a necessary part of any choice in life.

 

Perhaps what AR is trying to say is that she doesn't like harsh opinions/judgments bestowed upon a ow,especially when it's seems to be pointed in her direction. Maybe she see's herself as being the victim of someone bringing a critical judgement upon her.

 

I find it incredibly ironic AR in that in your posts indicate that you are yourself very harsh in your own opinions/judgments about your mm's wife, religion, sahm's, alimony, etc. and the final icing on the cake is when you feel your opinion is not being received well, you then seem to deflect with how you are misunderstood and that people who have differing opinions are not as enlightened as you are. As I said........pot meet kettle.

 

Lol. Nah, like I said, it doesn't bother me. I have lived in the bible belt for most of my life, I'm quite used to the "holier than thou" attitude, and grew immune to it long ago.

 

Your judgments of me and my thoughts and posts are entertaining. I say it again, if what I bolded above was what I was "trying" to say, that's what I would have said, lol. I don't feel the need to beat around the bush and wouldn't. I said exactly what I meant, and that was that I was curious as to how other OW/OMs interpreted the quote, and if it meant anything to them, or if they could relate to it in the same way that I did.

 

Judge away. It is your right. And don't worry about me, it doesn't bother me a bit. Disagreeing and pointing out that someone didn't comprehend something correctly isn't deflectment, it's pointing out that someone read WAY too much into a very short post that started a thread. Eh, again, not uncommon, and I'm used to it.

 

Thanks for responding!

[woinlove]

Lol. Nah, like I said, it doesn't bother me. I have lived in the bible belt for most of my life, I'm quite used to the "holier than thou" attitude, and grew immune to it long ago.

 

Your judgments of me and my thoughts and posts are entertaining. I say it again, if what I bolded above was what I was "trying" to say, that's what I would have said, lol. I don't feel the need to beat around the bush and wouldn't. I said exactly what I meant, and that was that I was curious as to how other OW/OMs interpreted the quote, and if it meant anything to them, or if they could relate to it in the same way that I did.

 

Judge away. It is your right. And don't worry about me, it doesn't bother me a bit. Disagreeing and pointing out that someone didn't comprehend something correctly isn't deflectment, it's pointing out that someone read WAY too much into a very short post that started a thread. Eh, again, not uncommon, and I'm used to it.

 

Thanks for responding!

 

So, your response suggests that you saw LG judging you and yet you see your statement below as not judging? How does that work? Both posts look the same to me -- like judgements (in the usual sense) or not like judgements (by your definition of saying you are better than someone else).

 

I think many are defining judgment differently, perhaps for their own purposes, so that they feel better about doing so.

[AnotherRound]

So, your response suggests that you saw LG judging you and yet you see your statement below as not judging? How does that work? Both posts look the same to me -- like judgements (in the usual sense) or not like judgements (by your definition of saying you are better than someone else).

 

When did I say I was better than someone else? If I don't think that, then why would I say that?

 

I just said that if LG wants to judge me, that it didn't bother me as she seemed concerned that I was feeling judged and was saddened or bothered by that. I was simply letting her know that I was neither saddened or bothered.

 

Different is not "better" or "worse", just different. I obviously prefer my way, or I wouldn't do it my way. Not saying my way is better, just the way that I feel most comfortable as judging others doesn't feel good to me.

 

Anyway, I think the discussion is way outside of the quote now, so, I'm gonna check out of it. I will present it at my next group and get some discussion on it that might be more along the lines of what I was looking for - just people's reactions to the quote to life in general. It didn't really get those responses here, but a lot of assumptions about what it "really" meant, so, no big deal. Just not the discussion I was looking for.

 

Thanks for your thoughtful posts.

[underwater2010]

According to your post I should not judge a phedophile, a murder, a rapist or an con artist. The simple fact is that if we as a society do not judge other people then everything that a person does is just fine and legal. If we do not judge, then we cannot hold people accountable for the actions.

 

Get over it. I have every right to judge my FWH, his MOW and myself. Along with any OW/OM. Just as you have the right to judge me.

[LadyGrey]

Lol. Nah, like I said, it doesn't bother me. I have lived in the bible belt for most of my life, I'm quite used to the "holier than thou" attitude, and grew immune to it long ago.

 

You imply that I'm one of those "holier than thou" people. :D You couldn't be more wrong AR. That's not how I work and my posts here attest to that.

 

Your judgments of me and my thoughts and posts are entertaining. I say it again, if what I bolded above was what I was "trying" to say, that's what I would have said, lol. I don't feel the need to beat around the bush and wouldn't. I said exactly what I meant, and that was that I was curious as to how other OW/OMs interpreted the quote, and if it meant anything to them, or if they could relate to it in the same way that I did.

 

There was that "you misunderstood me" thing again but followed by your claim that you say what you mean. I don't think you are clear at all and you backtrack.

 

Judge away. It is your right. And don't worry about me, it doesn't bother me a bit. Disagreeing and pointing out that someone didn't comprehend something correctly isn't deflectment, it's pointing out that someone read WAY too much into a very short post that started a thread. Eh, again, not uncommon, and I'm used to it.

 

Just as I have formed an opinion/judgement of you, you have surely formed one of me, isn't that correct? See the irony?

 

 

Thanks for responding!

 

**********

[Got it]

That makes total sense MissBee that if you were oh so happy in an affair situation you would just be out there living your life. I understand the ones that come here in pain and would like a way out. That's where I maintain anyone can offer insight as pretty much everyone has experienced a bad relationship where you just weren't being treated as you should and then justified the bad behavior.

 

What I don't understand is this need to convince those of us that either aren't from either side or are former OW or BS that we must understand their point of view. That if we say we know beyond a shadow of a doubt we won't cheat, how foolish that thought is. Sorry if people don't understand some people really do know themselves that well.

 

As I mentioned on another thread, there are such forums catering to only OW's (and men) thoughts and experiences. How they have every day trials in their relationships and it's just like normal relationships except many don't know about it. How that's normal I don't know. Anyway they just want a place to discuss that and not get out of it. But if "those" places were so great and they could just commisurate with each other without the bother of dissenting opinions, then why the need to come here to argue and make underhanded digs on "newbies" threads about how "many" posts aren't helpful Instead of trusting that a person is intelligent enough to figure out what they need and discard the rest.

 

Why the need to argue what this forum should be or not be and who is and is not supporative. I think most OW come here in pain and how it's helpful to tell someone to accept lies and crap treatment instead of helping them figure out what's broken that lead them to accept that, well I've said before I like to see people that have that inner peace and happiness and affair won't lead there as evidenced to the many posts to the contrary.

 

I disagree. I was on forums while in my EMR because I liked to discuss it and I liked to be supported. I like to gush and have people happy for me. Why is the market on boards is only covered by those that aren't "oh so happy"? That would then apply to you, to me, and to everyone else. Are you not oh so happy and living your life?

 

I am here because it is a nice way to spend some time, to give my thoughts, opinions, and experience. Maybe to show that it isn't all doom and gloom and sex in the backseat of a car (which is a load of fun if you haven't tried it ) and getting five minute phone calls. It can be a much more substantial, fulfilling relationship. Shocker. I have never been here when I needed help or wanted help. Why? Because I don't feel that the culture works for me that way. This is not a board I would choose to open up and be vulnerable on.

 

And logistically speaking, why do some come here? It literally is the first thing when you google affair forums. That is how I ended up here. I just found the tone wasn't what I was looking for so during my active days I found a culture more conducive to my frame of mind. I was out "living my life" but that didn't mean I didn't want to discuss things online and IRL. Same thing I do with my work, my passions, etc. I am forums for them and that doesn't indicate helplessness and need.

 

But that doesn't mean one can't hope to change the culture as it is a fluid and organic thing.

[amaysngrace]

This thread is proof that OW get involved with MM cause they dig drama.

[MissBee]

Doesn't it all come down to the old mantra about punishing the sin, not the sinner? H is by most lights a 'good man' - loyal, kind, loving, generous etc. But IMO he did a bad thing - he was unfaithful. Does it make him a bad man? No. I don't judge him. But I will judge his action.

 

I see it this way as well.

 

I definitely understand why some people do as they do, yet my understanding does not excuse or make it so that I don't have any opinion about their actions.

 

This is slightly tangential but similar...my nutritionist was actually using analogies about different kinds of families and how you think about your relationship to food and how there must be a balance. She used families that are too lax, i.e. there are no boundaries, whatever the child does is "right" or acceptable and the parents are scared of having any rules and conditions. She talked about how that never helps the child and the she talked about families that are too restrictive and how when the child gets freedom they go wild. In any case, the judgment topic reminded me of that.I think like with some parents who are afraid of disciplining their child and think being their friend and being lax helps (usually many of them had strict upbringings so swing to the opposite direction), perhaps some people are thoroughly afraid of judging or having judgments or making any clear boundaries about what is acceptable or unacceptable and feel they must always come from this ambiguous place of...everything is permissible if you want it to be. It's a kind of position that mimics empathy but it can also simply be problematic and misguided just like the parents who don't discipline and truly believe they are being wonderful.

 

A balance must be struck IMO. Judging exists for a good reason...being judgmental is another thing. But seeing as though we ALL have character flaws, most people are judgmental at one point or another and it just seems very far-fetched to assert that you aren't. It's like a person who says they never lie lol...I mean that statement alone is a lie. Being overly judgmental, condemning and inflexible is a problem, being overly permissive where nothing is ever black and white and you straddle the fence on everything is also problematic. I think well-adjusted people usually can make judgments, have clear boundaries yet are open to thinking and renegotiating. I don't really trust people who stand for nothing...

[MissBee]

According to your post I should not judge a phedophile, a murder, a rapist or an con artist. The simple fact is that if we as a society do not judge other people then everything that a person does is just fine and legal. If we do not judge, then we cannot hold people accountable for the actions.

 

Get over it. I have every right to judge my FWH, his MOW and myself. Along with any OW/OM. Just as you have the right to judge me.

 

Ditto...

 

What do we gain by saying, I never judge people's character?

 

It's completely silly.

 

I will teach my future kids not to judge people on superficial elements or to feel above people and I will definitely teach them that all people should be treated with respect and everyone deserves love...however, I also am going to teach them that there is such a thing as having bad character. I don't know what world is being discussed where judgments don't exist...but even on the job, in interviews, to be successful in life, you will be under the scrutiny of others and you will need to be discerning about character and what choices of people and situations are good/bad/useful/not useful.

 

I think children who learn to be discerning and discriminating are better off than those who don't realize that there are people out there who don't have your best interest at heart. Exactly HOW do you teach a child that the man driving beside him asking him to help him find his dog is not looking out for him if you believe you should never judge a person's character? Exactly how do you teach that lesson? I would like to really hear....

 

 

I think the conversation about evil is pointless...esp if you aren't religious, evil is usually situated in a religious context. So forget evil. Philosophical convos about good and bad and the essence of human beings have their place...but in the lived world of everyday that you have no control over constructing...you cannot get by without making these determinations...and usually those who cannot and don't end up in very precarious situations. I know who to date and befriend and trust by observing and judging their character. I don't condemn, neither am I saying they can NEVER change...what I do say is the kinds of stuff they stand for and do are not things I deem useful and thus being in any kind of close relationship with such a person doesn't serve me. For those who never judge character...how exactly do you form relationships and friendships? What determines your choosing?

[woinlove]

When did I say I was better than someone else? If I don't think that, then why would I say that?

 

You didn't and neither did LG or any other post I read. That was my point - you and LG both made judgements in the usual sense, but not by your definition of the word. So not sure who you would think LG (or anyone else) might want to judge in your sense of the word.

[cocorico]

OW/OMs, thoughts on this? Is this what you were trying to say too? Or, how do you feel about the quote? Does it hit home for you?

 

I think it's a nice sentiment, but it doesn't really apply to me. I don't do sin. I'm not religious and I try as far as possible to behave a all times in accordance with my own moral code. Sin doesn't feature when you live authentically like that.

 

And I do judge. Damn straight! When I see someone doing something bad or stupid or just plain ugly I have no problem saying so! And if I think it's ok for me to do it, why would I object to others doing the same? That would be hypocritical.

 

And since there is no way in hell I'm prepared to shut up about the mess the Tories are making of this country, or the moral obscenity that the poor have to pay for far at bankers having broken the global economy, or the inequity of the rogue state of Israel being allowed nukes while Iran is not.... I'm happy for others to have the right to judge too.

[William]

OK, I made a judgment. Thread closed.