STBD exMMs are frustrating!

[AnotherRound]

OP, to bookend on Frozensprout's posting, when you do have contact, watch for balance. Include/share experiences, frustrations, items of interest and topics from your everyday life and observe his proactive interest in *you*. This balances out the propensity for becoming a 'therapist' (great point ). Should you find his interest inequitable, then disclose that and ignore any emotional rantings which may result.

 

Is this hard to do when you love someone? Yeah, it is. However, it's healthy and equitable and will go miles towards assuaging your frustrations. Try it and see.

 

It's funny you brought this up. The entire first part of the convo was him asking about me, checking on me, asking about certain things that are currently going on in my life... even asking how my dogs are doing, lol. He then went into the project he had asked for help on, and we talked about that for a bit.

 

That's when I felt like we were ignoring the elephant, and brought it up. He was trying to keep it light, keep it neutral and off his divorce - I was the one that wasn't able to. It just feels so odd to just not talk about it, I mean, it's a big deal. And like I said, we've always talked about everything, openly. And now, it's like we have this taboo subject, which we've never had before, and it feels awkward.

 

And then I think, why are we not talking about it? Is it unhealthy for us to talk about it? Even if I'm neutral (and I honestly have been!) and not trying to persuade him (as I wouldn't know which way to persuade him bc I'm not even sure what I want!)???? If it is unhealthy, why? And, if we don't talk about it, how will I get the information that I need? About how he is handling things? How he is feeling and thinking, and how he is reacting?

 

I guess this is my confusion and my conundrum.

[AnotherRound]

I believe this guy could benefit from therapy - and it shouldn't be you.

 

He is in therapy, and has been for the past 8 months or so. I feel like I keep having to say this, lol He is doing a lot of work in therapy - I don't think that he is trying to use me as a therapist. I honestly think he just feels like I know him really well and that he values my feedback. And, he has asked me some questions about things his therapist has said to him, to kind of bounce it off of me. He is interested in my take on things, and he has asked for some explanations of certain mental health things, to help him understand what his therapist has said better.

 

I haven't been his "therapist" since we decided that wasn't healthy, and he has respected that. But, if I ask him something, or bring something up, he is willing to share with me.

[AnotherRound]

OP, you noted in your title STBD, which I presume means 'soon to be divorced'. When we were divorcing, the lawsuit case summary could be viewed by anyone who knew my or my exW's last name on our court's web site. Every filing; every motion. I presume you use STBD because you've seen such information, correct? You have independently verified divorce filings? If previously answered, my apologies, but it is relevant to this thread, especially relevant to frustration. My advice is predicated upon the man in question being actively in the legal divorce process.

 

Yes, he is actively in the divorce process. We live in a very small town, and the docket entries (and the divorces) are published in the local newspaper (not a lot of news here I guess, lol). So, yes, it is happening. And he has been living in his own house since February. They are now at the discovery phase, and he has turned in his paper work and she hasn't. They have completed the parenting classes, and recently had a mediation meeting that got rescheduled bc her attorney did not have a proposal ready and wanted to enter one. So, not sure when that will happen, but if they can agree and sign, then it's as good as done. The rescheduling was in the paper too (docket entry, apparently). So, yes, verified, and is happening. (not to mention, the entire town has been talking about it)

[AnotherRound]

When I went through my divorce - it was a ton of emotional distress - and then it took me years to process MY PART in the breakdown of my M.

 

Me too. Not years, but a lot of emotions, and processing.

 

He has a lot of emotions to process - and learn how he participated that lead tithe place where he is now.

 

Yes, he does, and that is where he is now, and what he is doing. Lots of self-reflecting and reviewing things he has done and said.

 

IF he doesn't want to acknowledge HIS part in it - And CHANGE HIS BEHAVIOR - then he likely to find himself in a similar dynamic as when HE was married = unhappy and cheating...

 

That's the issue, he IS acknowledging his part in it. Imo, he is taking TOO much of the blame for the breakdown (the affair is another matter in that the wife was aware and didn't object). He is trying to make sure that he figures this out bc he feels terrible for hurting anyone (me included back in the day).

 

He has work to do - YOU can't DO that FOR HIM.

 

I'm not trying to do it for him. I was trying to help him bc I have the skills to do so, professionally. I then realized that I needed to not be involved, and we set a boundary, and he has stuck to it - until I asked him, and took it there.

 

IF he won't face his fears and change the way HE participates - then he's only asking you to date an unhealthy man.

 

He knows this, as do I. He is not asking me to date him now, he is asking me to consider it once he is divorced. He doesn't want to get too involved right now bc he knows that his head isn't in a good place, those are his words. It's hard bc we have always wanted to be together, and now cannot until this is sorted, and he is sorted. I think it's the waiting that is frustrating, for both of us. And the muddling through all the processing, while thinking that we shouldn't be helping one another - which is exactly opposite of how our relationship always was.

 

Processing through to a healthier perspective COULD take years.

We discussed this.

Are you willing to wait that long?

 

I'm not waiting, and I said that to him. It's not about whether I'm willing or not, it's about me doing what is healthy for me. And that is not waiting for anyone, not even him. If I were to fall in love with someone else, I would pursue that. Not bc I don't love exMM, but bc it would be the healthy and right thing for me to do for myself. He isn't asking me to wait, and totally understands that would be unhealthy for me. So, I'm not sure right now, that's where MY confusion is.

I don't suggest staying involved while he goes through the process - for me, it would have only been a distraction to the work only I could do/face. It also wouldn't have been fair to subject another person to MY crap that I needed to work PAST.

 

I get what you are saying. He is trying to do this on his own, and to not involve me. I just don't see how we can have contact and NOT talk about it. But, then I can't see how we could go NC either, as I feel a need to watch him go through this process, so that I can see him processing. For some reason, I think knowing this, and seeing him do this, will help me make up my mind later.

[AnotherRound]

AR, you know where I am on this. As long as you're playing therapist-client with him, it's the dynamic in your A, and it will enable him to stay stuck. Why don't you want to get off the roller coaster? Why don't you feel that that would be better for you? Feeling him pulling away emotionally from you should be enough to wake up the self preservation reflex in you of getting away. Why not? It's fight or flight, and you're in no position to fight. What are you trying to do?

 

Thanks. He isn't pulling away from me emotionally. We now have a taboo subject, which we've never had before. And neither of us is quite sure how to talk around something - as we are both very direct and open people. We have always talked about everything and anything very openly, laying out all of our thoughts and emotions on the table for the other to see. There have never been any subjects that we avoided, ever.

 

I think that I am trying to observe him during this crisis so that I can make a better decision about whether or not I want to be with him. I want to see how he handles this, what his thought processes are, what his feelings are. I feel like all of this will give me some kind of clue as to what I need to do regarding him when the divorce is over.

 

I think I make my own roller coaster with my compulsive thoughts and thinking patterns. I don't know... I have a lot going on in the rest of my life too, and I think I'm just overwhelmed with everything. I'm already stressed out, and I think that otherwise, this wouldn't be affecting me nearly as much.

[AnotherRound]

I know from my own divorce many years ago, it took me years to really work through it. I know there were times 5 to 7 years later, that I would still be so sad and hurt that I would cry.....and I'm not a person who cries easily. 18 years later now and there are times it still makes me sad.

 

From your posts, your mm is no where near to having the capacity to having a healthy relationship with you or anyone else. If I were you, I'd concentrate on minimizing my own risk.

 

Thanks for sharing. I guess for me, my divorce, I processed really quickly. But of course, I was ready to be out by the time it came, so I had done a lot of processing DURING the marriage.

 

So, yes, I know that he has a lot to process through, especially regarding his child (which I think is his biggest issue in the entire thing). There is a lot of guilt regarding his child and how this will affect his child in the future. He is afraid of the possible consequences of that, and worries about his child incessantly. So, I know that is going to take a while to work through.

 

I am trying to minimize my own risk, but I feel like I'm not doing a very good job at it. I feel like we shouldn't be talking about his divorce, but then I want to talk about it - and I have no idea why I feel like we shouldn't be talking about it - but I feel like I want to talk about it bc it gives me information regarding how he is doing, and how he is processing things. And yes, I do want to help him with that bc I do have professional skills for that, and I know that I CAN help him. So, not helping him with the knowledge I have feels wrong. ????

[AnotherRound]

Hello from moderation. Due to the number of off-topic threadjack posts deleted and the subject matter being discussed, this is a Stage Three.

 

Here's the key verbiage:

 

Constructive feedback welcome.

 

Just venting. If anyone has any ideas or tips or advice about this, I'm open to it. I am making an effort to set it aside, not churn it over and over, but come back to it later and get a fresh look at it.

 

Posters who have such constructive feedback regarding a married man going through a divorce are welcomed to share it with the thread starter, relevant to that process. Carry on.

 

I have no idea what happened while I wasn't on here, but thanks William for cleaning the thread up... Not sure what I missed, but it's probably better that I did.

[AnotherRound]

Reality can be quite complicated and Monster Mash has a point that goes beyond A that are just for the thrill of it. Both affairs and divorce bring in a complex mix of emotions and can be tumultuous times for anyone.

 

My own situation moved from an affair with MM for a month or so to an out in the open relationship R with now separated man (sMM) for over a year, where toward the end we planned our futures together, his children spent time with us as a couple, we had met each other's relatives, etc. Yet as his divorced finalized, I suddenly saw things in a different light, focussed more on his past and why he had an A, and asked more critically whether this was the man I wanted to tie my life to. I answered no, and ended it as his divorce was finalized. Monster Mash nailed my situation, not because we were in it for the thrill, but because by their very nature, affairs and the mindset that goes along with them, can be a poor indicator for a committed relationship.

 

Going through your sMM's divorce with him can bring up a lot of emotions but it can also bring a time of useful reflection - not about what he is going through, but maybe HOW he is going through it, how you might go through it if you put yourself in his shoes, and how well these two approaches mesh, and what they tell you about shared values, trust, respect, loyalty, honesty, etc.

 

My advice is to not miss the opportunity to shift your focus away from what he is going through and shift it toward both yourself and sMM as a person, how he is handling everything, how he is treating his stbxW and what that says to you. Divorce is a difficult time but each spouse has the opportunity to behave during the process how they choose and that can give you a lot of insight that may not have been gleaned during the A.

 

I've read a sad story on LS where the former OW only gleaned these insights after marrying the former MM and wished she had thought clearer earlier. She had felt too much like she owed MM something, thinking he was divorcing for her. Only a fool divorces for someone else. A mature person divorces for themselves, because they have decided the M needs to end with or without another person waiting in the wings. Don't let any feelings of obligation in this respect weigh you down.

 

Thanks. I think that is what I'm trying to do - observe him and his process to get a better idea about whether or not I want to be in a relationship with him after the divorce or not.

 

I don't feel like I owe him anything. Just as a person, I always want to give empathy and support to all other people, especially those that I care about it. I know I don't "owe" it to him, I WANT to give it.

 

I am not waiting in the wings, and he is not asking me to. He waited until the divorce is almost done to contact me and ask me to just consider trying to have a relationship with him. And we talked about that it may not happen right after the divorce, depending on where each of us is at, and if I even want to pursue it all, as I haven't decided.

 

Our affair was not secret, and we talked daily, and saw each other most days. We had a LOT of contact, and then when I ended it, we went to hardly any contact. And that was not easy for either of us, as we are talkers, always have been. We spent hours and hours talking, and we held nothing back from one another. We have always supported one another, especially if there was something big happening. And now, we are trying to figure out if the divorce is really taboo, if it should be, and if so, why... and if not, why the heck are we not allowing the natural flow anymore with this one subject?

 

I don't know, the affair was different in that it wasn't secret or deceitful, so we had a lot of communication and contact. It wasn't sneaking and hiding, but just a normal relationship, with very few time constraints (when he wanted time with his child, or his child had something going on, we worked around that every time). So, not sure if that is what led to the openness, or if that's just the way we are together, or a combination of the two. But it feels really unnatural for us to have a subject that we don't talk about, especially one that is affecting him so much.

[Saba]

I think I make my own roller coaster with my compulsive thoughts and thinking patterns. I don't know... I have a lot going on in the rest of my life too, and I think I'm just overwhelmed with everything. I'm already stressed out, and I think that otherwise, this wouldn't be affecting me nearly as much.

 

Then why don't you focus on taking time out to relax, rather than going around and around trying to figure out things that may happen or what you should be doing compared to what you are doing.

[Saba]

I am trying to minimize my own risk, but I feel like I'm not doing a very good job at it. I feel like we shouldn't be talking about his divorce, but then I want to talk about it - and I have no idea why I feel like we shouldn't be talking about it - but I feel like I want to talk about it bc it gives me information regarding how he is doing, and how he is processing things. And yes, I do want to help him with that bc I do have professional skills for that, and I know that I CAN help him. So, not helping him with the knowledge I have feels wrong. ????

 

If listening to his thoughts about his divorce eases your mind then maybe you should. Helping him with advice is a minefield. You have an interest in the way things pan out and try as you may no one could be objective in that situation. I say listen if it helps, but give no advice, opinions or ask leading questions (questions that make him think about things differently). Let the therapist help him learn himself.

[2sunny]

Do you think you're staying in contact because you fear he may meet someone else if you step away during this time/process that he's in?

[AnotherRound]

Do you think you're staying in contact because you fear he may meet someone else if you step away during this time/process that he's in?

 

Honestly, no. I thought of that, and I'm just not feeling that. In fact, I feel a little guilty in that I almost wish he would, bc then I wouldn't have to decide - he would decide for me.

 

I really think that I feel like if we aren't in contact, and not talking about the divorce, that I will miss some vital piece of information that could be the determining factor in my decision. I kind of feel like I'm actually looking for a reason to say no, but I'm just not sure why????

[Got it]

AR - no I don't think it is codependent to offer any support but there is a pendulum swing and what I am saying has to do with going too far to one side. It is finding that ever fluid happy medium but it first takes understanding what you want, need, and prioritize and how much or little you want/need to hear.

 

Some OP do not discuss the divorce proceedings at all. It is viewed as the MP's baby to rock and they should handle it on their time/quietly and focus on their relationship when together.

 

Some OP want to be fully involved, to know every detail, to be the primary support system and to be an integral person in the process.

 

And others are somewhere in the middle.

 

My needs and boundaries changed as my life changed, stresses popped up, events in his life, etc. Counseling centered me/us as we both saw the same IC for CC as well. So she had a bigger picture of us and could help us when in IC. But a lot of it was just putting one foot in front of the other and decide as a couple what was the healthiest for us.

 

At one point we had a sign, dMM would preface anything too emotional with a "are you sure you want to hear this?" which allowed me to make the decision. In response then I could say no, not right now, or yes and be there for advise support. I have been a "fixer" in my past and so that was a struggle not trying to fix his problems. With the multitude of them crashing down at the height of the divorce it REALLY helped me keep myself back a step, offer support but not fix it (as I couldn't do so and it wasn't mine to fix). What I needed to learn to be comfortable with was being there to reassure someone but dealing with and accepting the feeling of ineptness because I couldn't rush to fix it. His divorce helped me a lot to work on some of my issues which was a little silver lining.

 

I think you do need to figure out why this has you emotional if you don't know. Sometimes I need to be in a quiet space and just be still with things for it to bubble up. I would journal, free write my thoughts and continue to condense, edit, and refine my thoughts and feelings before addressing with dMM. Stream of conscious out loud is way too unfiltered, especially mine.

 

I am glad he is in IC, I am glad things are progressing albeit slowly. Just focus on your life, the areas that you find joys, your family and friends, hobbies, etc and don't lose sight of those things while he is working through his concerns.

[seren]

AR, I wonder if you would both be better served if he had IC for the feelings of guilt and as support during the divorce process and that you and he, while talking about the what next steps, also take time to just be a couple. I know it might sound simplistic, but it can be so easy to slip into being the shoulder and scaffolding for another and not take care of our own need to share and discuss concerns, fears and plans. I get that you want to support him, we all want to support the people we love, but this sounds as though your supporting is taking precedence over your loving relationship, once this role is adopted it is hard to cast off.

 

I have been divorced twice, TBH I didn't feel guilt, but I remember when my now H came on the scene at a messy time in the process regarding child support and custody that for a while it seemed that all I had to talk about was that. It gets to be like a loop and time together getting to know each other and beginning our relationship was almost stymied by being entangled with the one I had got out of - if that makes sense.

 

I made a 30 minute rule, in that I vented and then concentrated on us. We had dates, we made time to be us. I don't think it healthy to avoid the elephant in the room, it doesn't go away, you just get adept at walking around it. Shut it in a different room to be visited for short bursts. take control of the dammed elephant!! but don't forget your needs along the way. New relationships (yes I view it as new because the circs have changed) shouldn't be clogged up with old one's. I suggest he gets IC and that you take it slowly. I hope it gets better, not all divorces are full of angst.

[2sunny]

So in the 8 months he's done counseling - what evidence does he show for growth/change?

[AnotherRound]

So in the 8 months he's done counseling - what evidence does he show for growth/change?

 

A lot, imo (and as a professional mental health worker, and knowing him so well, I think that my "judgment" of his progress is probably fairly accurate).

 

He is showing a lot more ability for self insight, and seeing his part in things. Before, he truly was convinced that he was a victim in his marriage, and no matter how hard I tried, was not able to see HIS part in the breakdown. Now, he's gone the other way and is taking ALL the responsibility for the breakdown - which was mostly done prior to the A.

 

He has learned some coping skills. Again, things I had TRIED to help him with before, but he just wasn't listening I guess. Now, he seems to be listening, and honestly trying to figure out WHY he has handled things the way he did. And seems to be trying to process all of this and be a better person.

 

He has also shown tremendous growth in the communication department. He has always been willing to communicate, but wasn't always very good at. He had the tendency to become verbally abusive when he was hurt, to shut the convo down when it seemed as if he was being "criticized", as he was VERY sensitive to that. He now is exhibiting more understanding that discussing issues is NOT criticism and staying in the convo, and staying calmer. He also seems to have learned that even if he doesn't understand WHY the other person feels the way that they do, that he can validate those feelings without agreeing with them.

 

He is quick to apologize if I express hurt, whereas before, if he didn't understand it or didn't intend to hurt me, he somewhat dismissed it. That has changed a LOT.

 

I'm seeing a lot of positive changes in him, and that's exciting. But, I do wonder how permanent these changes are. He has been pretty consistent over the past 8 months (although our contact has been limited), so I'm hopeful that things are possibly sinking in for him.

 

I've also noticed a big change in his view of his stbxw. He has realized that he was verbally abusive to her, and in exploring how he was raised, he is understanding why he acted that way, but instead of feeling justified, he is feeling badly about it - which is huge. He is doing everything possible to right those wrongs as much as he can, and has gained understanding of how this dynamic has affected the relationship and their child.

 

It's pretty amazing to see. I know that back in the day when I tried to point these things out to him, he would become angry and say that I was taking his stbxw's side. I remember trying to explain to him that it wasn't about "sides", but about the fact that both people contribute to the breakdown, and it's often hard to decide which came first - the chicken or the egg dilemma. He didn't understand it then - but is getting it now.

 

So, I am seeing progress, and more understanding, and more insight, and more personal responsibility. I'm hopeful that it sticks, even if he and I do not end up together. He is so much more at peace now than he ever was when he was married. It's like a HUGE burden has been lifted off his shoulders, and he is breathing easier and seeing things so much more clearly now. I think in the end, he will end up more in the middle, where he accepts his part, but doesn't take responsibility for her part.

[2sunny]

You could try dating him- and with the idea of a CLEAR and firm boundary. And if it doesn't meet YOUR needs/wants/desires - be firm with yourself that if/when it's not what you want then you make that commitment to yourself to walk away knowing that you gave it your best shot.

 

I suppose you will always wonder if you don't give it a go. May as well go for it then.

 

Being left to wonder isn't ever going to feel finished to either of you...

[AnotherRound]

You could try dating him- and with the idea of a CLEAR and firm boundary. And if it doesn't meet YOUR needs/wants/desires - be firm with yourself that if/when it's not what you want then you make that commitment to yourself to walk away knowing that you gave it your best shot.

 

I suppose you will always wonder if you don't give it a go. May as well go for it then.

 

Being left to wonder isn't ever going to feel finished to either of you...

 

I agree. And have found myself wondering if I'm only considering it simply bc of this reason - that if I don't, I will always wonder. When I walked away last year, I did my processing and letting go, and had really moved past him emotionally. And with the thought to myself that it was done and over. And I guess this whole thing is just making me doubt it is done and over bc the circumstances have completely changed.

 

So yes, the only way to truly put it to rest may be to try it and see. And, if it doesn't work out, I am confident I could walk away with no regrets. If it does work out, well, then... lol. I think, what's the worst that could happen? That it doesn't work out? That he really is a person incapable of monogamy? Oh well, then I will walk away.

 

Of course, today I woke up feeling like I didn't want to try at all, lol. So, I think the roller coaster I'm on is of my own making - not due to him. Eh, it will all buff out. Thanks...