For a man sometimes tact and decorum have no place for a man in dating.

[joystickd]

I read this in an article recently:

Did my late mother teach me a few things about being a "gentleman" toward women? She sure did. Did she emphasize being polite and "respectful" toward women? She sure did.

End result: Her teachings ... God Bless her soul ... left me more confused and frustrated than ever before in the long-run. These feelings of confusion and frustration are why I ultimately ended up writing my first paperback.

Starting with the latter half of my senior year of high school, when I was real, raw, straightforward and provocative with women ... I had women calling me every day, every other day, and inviting me to have sex with them.

When I was polite, pleasantly phony, and frequently engaged in conversations with women that were entertaining, but yet non-threatening and conventional ... I had a number of women complimenting me for being "nice," "well-mannered," and "sweet," but rarely did my tongue ever gain the opportunity to massage their tongue.

The reason why my books have resonated with single heterosexual men in up to twenty-five different countries is because the vast majority of men I hear from have experienced exactly what I experienced. I have had men in Brazil, Colombia, Croatia, Guatemala, India, Russia, and The United Kingdom write me notes saying, "Alan ... wow. I read your books, and I can totally relate to feeling like a 'frustrated nice guy.' And it is not a great feeling."

I have noticed in just about all of my past conversations with my male followers and supporters, it was their mother who encouraged them to be a "well-mannered gentleman" toward women. Very rarely, if ever, was it their fathers who offered that advice.

My late father rarely offered me advice regarding how to behave toward women. The only advice of his that stands out in my mind was, "If you have sex, use a dependable condom" and "don't get married before you have truly experienced life" (translation: don't get married until you have sowed your wild oats). My Dad did not say much else. His general attitude was, "he will figure out on his own what he needs to do in order to attract the women he wants to attract." It was my beloved mother that was constantly saying, "You should talk about this ... and you should avoid talking about that. You should do this ... and you should avoid doing that." Etc., etc., etc.

Why is it that a woman has never felt "shy" or "embarrassed" about bringing up the topic of sex in a first conversation with me? Have you ever heard a man say, "Oh my God!! Excuse me?!? What is your problem?? Were you not raised to avoid conversing about the subject of sex with a man in your very first conversation with him?!? Goodness gracious. Get some manners young lady." I think I might say that to a woman one day just to see her response.

I have had women at nightclubs grab my crotch or pinch my butt, and these women never thought twice about acting embarrassed about it. Where are these women's "handbooks?" What if a man was to haul off and slap the you-know-what out of a woman for touching his "private" area?? Women would press charges and accuse him of assault and battery, even though she was the one who was "disrespectful" in the first place. Right?

 

 

 

 

 

I think at some point as a man you mother said be nice and respectful. I say mother was wrong. On some level for attraction to happen you have to be bold and provocative. It strikes that woman deep down on the emotional level.

[Titanwolf]

My mother taught me to speak my mind, be confrontational when necessary, not to allow people to silence me, be blunt and a bunch of other stuff. I am grateful that my mother is a tough one and my father is even worse . I'm probably better off for it.

[oldshirt]

I am in my upper 40s now and I also had a very strong and influencial mother. As I was growing up in the late 60s and 70s my mother was one of the "Women's Lib" women and was a strong advocate for women's rights and for women to stand up and be heard. I admired her for that and I still do.

 

My mother was also very hardcore on raising up boys to be respectfull and courtious and look out for women's feelings and to not treat them like a piece of meat or as sex objects or as whores etc etc etc.

 

She always raised me by saying if I was a good person and treated people nice that good things would come to me and that while the jocks and horndogs and the bad boys may appear to getting all the girls, in time a good women would see my merits and appreciate my more civilized and cultured nature.

 

She was right of course and good things did come to me and a beautiful, sexy, nice and very high-quality woman did see me for who and what I was and married me and we have been married almost 17 years with two great kids, a nice home in the 'burbs, two new cars and a Harley Davidson in the driveway.

 

The problem is I was 30 years old when we started dating and married a year later. Now I wasn't a virgin or a monk by ANY means but during my late teens - mid 20s I was the "nice guy" that got friendzoned all the time while my jock/bad boy buddies were bringing chicks home from the bar and having women fight over them and getting their hearts broken by them and then having the women come cry on my shoulder about how bad they were being treated.

 

The worst part was the girls themselves would be telling me how I would make some lucky gal happy some day because I'd never treat a woman that way. When I'd say, you're right, lets Fuc(, I'd always be told that they couldnt' treat me that way and I was too good of a person to just have a one-nighter with and then after they'd cried their eyes out on my shoulder bitching about how bad this particular bad boy was, she'd swing by his place on the way home and bang him.

 

Thanks Mom. You really helped me out with women:mad:

 

The real clincher is, when I did meet and start seeing my wonderful wife, I WAS CHEATING ON A LONG TERM GF AND BANGING HER ON THE SIDE.

 

When I did find love it was when I had finally had enough of being the nice guy and the shoulder to cry on and decided if you can't beat 'em join 'em.

 

Now I am certainly not advocating treating people bad or using them or lying, manipulating or being a douche. But I do advocate and what I preach now is to NOT try to hide or suppress or cover up your sexuality.

 

BE A MAN. BE BOLD. BE PROVOCATIVE. BE ASSERTIVE AND SEXUAL WITH WOMEN,

 

If they don't want to go to bed with you they won't. It's their responsibility to protect their boundries. If they do want to they will and you will stand a fighting chance by being open and honest about your sexuality. Don't try to protect their virtues for them.

[joystickd]

Another thing mother more than likely never taught men: "Women will always try to 'test' men. Yearly, monthly, weekly, or even daily. Women want to see how much backbone you have as a man. How much [undesirable and/or disrespectful behavior] you're willing to take from them. If a woman identifies you as a 'weak punk' (i.e., a man with no backbone who will allow women to disrespect him and dominate him), she will never be [erotically] submissive to you. Never. The only way you will get a woman who views you as a 'punk' in bed is to pay her a nice sum of cash. It is in a woman's nature to want to be [erotically] submissive to a man, but only a strong-willed man with the backbone of steel."

 

It was in recent years that my dad actually talked to me about this. We never really had a lot of conversations about dating because to him it was weird that a guy would have trouble with dating. By the time we started having conversations I had took advice from the pimp game to improve my dating. This above statement is one of the foundations for the pimp game. Actually if you read Pimp: Story of My Life by Robert Beck this is exactly what he is talking about.

[Mrlonelyone]

I am not what the OP envisions as a "heterosexual" or a "man" but I can vouch for what he says.

 

I am a transgendered woman with interest in men and women. I appreciate it when men are direct but not nasty about what they want. i.e. if you are in the bar do not ask the woman anything like "Are you good and wet and ready". (That's not what would be asked of me...use your imagination.)

 

Instead be charmingly direct. Touch the woman, in a non sexual place. Take her by the hand, look her in the eye and say what's on your mind. If there is even minimal interest in sex with you taking a woman by the hand will not be an issue.

 

That approach has worked with me in general when I have pursued women as well. At least if all you want is sex. The psychosocial dynamics of how people choose relationships is way more complex than any PUA. PUA will get you laid, not married.

[ThaWholigan]

My mother never told me any of that stuff. I had to learn on my own . I was told to be respectful to anybody, but my mother also told me to be confident and not take any sh*t from people. Dad was always zen-like as usual - but he stressed being fit (and still does).

 

Either way - as this ties in to my previous thread - I think there is a fine line really, between being tactful and honestly expressing ones sexuality, either verbally or non-verbally. It may not even have anything to do specifically with her body (OBJECTIFICATION ), just an expression. The difference is, not every man will be entirely comfortable with an overtly bold approach and it will probably not be in sync with the way they express themselves normally. The trick is to find your own way to express your sexuality and sync it in with who you are. If that is being direct, all good, but moderating it without repressing it should be an aim.

 

And as for women - well, some will occasionally be offended if you inadvertently push your luck. You have to ride that thin line if you want to be successful at attracting a woman (or women). Each individual woman will have her own likes and dislikes and what they respond to - they won't all respond exactly to the same exact expression, there will be noticeable nuances. This is probably the failing of PUA in general - it's a one-size-fits-all philosophy.

[Arasae]

Quality women do not respond to @$$hattish behavior. Period.

 

If you ”catch” a woman by treating her like dirt, do not be surprised when she cheats, leaves, or embarrasses you in fundamental ways.

 

Apparently, the men who adhere to this ”mother is wrong” philosophy have mothers who think more highly of their sons than the sons deserve. Grow up.

 

Real men treat women with respect. If a woman is worth your time, she won't put up with that nonsense. If all you want is to catch some tail, then you are what is inherently wrong with the ”system.”

 

There's more to life than living; you can't run on an empty heart.

[joystickd]

My mother never told me any of that stuff. I had to learn on my own . I was told to be respectful to anybody, but my mother also told me to be confident and not take any sh*t from people. Dad was always zen-like as usual - but he stressed being fit (and still does).

 

Either way - as this ties in to my previous thread - I think there is a fine line really, between being tactful and honestly expressing ones sexuality, either verbally or non-verbally. It may not even have anything to do specifically with her body (OBJECTIFICATION ), just an expression. The difference is, not every man will be entirely comfortable with an overtly bold approach and it will probably not be in sync with the way they express themselves normally. The trick is to find your own way to express your sexuality and sync it in with who you are. If that is being direct, all good, but moderating it without repressing it should be an aim.

 

And as for women - well, some will occasionally be offended if you inadvertently push your luck. You have to ride that thin line if you want to be successful at attracting a woman (or women). Each individual woman will have her own likes and dislikes and what they respond to - they won't all respond exactly to the same exact expression, there will be noticeable nuances. This is probably the failing of PUA in general - it's a one-size-fits-all philosophy.

Most women want a man direct with them. Some of the biggest problems in dating come from not being direct about what we want. I will say with your thread the biggest problem with some of the women on there is one problem that some women have and that is they hate male honesty. We all want people to be honest with us but in some case women cannot handle honesty from men. As a man on some level to have success you have to be honest.

[ThaWholigan]

Quality women do not respond to @$$hattish behavior. Period.

 

If you ”catch” a woman by treating her like dirt, do not be surprised when she cheats, leaves, or embarrasses you in fundamental ways.

 

Apparently, the men who adhere to this ”mother is wrong” philosophy have mothers who think more highly of their sons than the sons deserve. Grow up.

 

Real men treat women with respect. If a woman is worth your time, she won't put up with that nonsense. If all you want is to catch some tail, then you are what is inherently wrong with the ”system.”

 

There's more to life than living; you can't run on an empty heart.

 

This isn't really about respect. A man can be completely respectful to women, but if he has grown up not being comfortable expressing his sexuality to a woman (whether that is because his mother discouraged it or whatever), he will repeatedly fail with women, no matter how respectful he is. I think you're preaching to the choir (basically we agree with you in principle), but I think you're arguing about something else really.

 

It's not about cheating or treating women like dirt, it's about trying to find that thin line between being a man who is sexually attractive to women, and still being respectful and tactful at the same time. It's not an easy task. Guys who are "bad boys" or similar, tend not to care about offending women, and they are said to do better at attracting women. "Real" men who are respectful yet don't know how to be attractive to the women they are interested in take a little longer to get into their stride, and it's frustrating. And part of that could be attributed to dear old Mum in his ear telling him to "always be nice". It's not a bad thing, but if the only thing he is to women is nice and respectful - well, he'll have a lot of women who respect him - but they won't be attracted to him. This is how it has been in a lot of my observations.

[joystickd]

Quality women do not respond to @$$hattish behavior. Period.

 

If you ”catch” a woman by treating her like dirt, do not be surprised when she cheats, leaves, or embarrasses you in fundamental ways.

 

Apparently, the men who adhere to this ”mother is wrong” philosophy have mothers who think more highly of their sons than the sons deserve. Grow up.

 

Real men treat women with respect. If a woman is worth your time, she won't put up with that nonsense. If all you want is to catch some tail, then you are what is inherently wrong with the ”system.”

 

There's more to life than living; you can't run on an empty heart.

There is a big difference between being honest about what you desire and treating women like dirt. You can be honest about what you want and desire and not treat women like dirt. Its funny how things like this get mistaken by women as advocating treating women like dirt. I suggest you fully read with a logical mind not clouded by emotion and maybe you will have a true understanding of what I am trying to say.

[ThaWholigan]

Most women want a man direct with them. Some of the biggest problems in dating come from not being direct about what we want. I will say with your thread the biggest problem with some of the women on there is one problem that some women have and that is they hate male honesty. We all want people to be honest with us but in some case women cannot handle honesty from men. As a man on some level to have success you have to be honest.

 

I don't know - I try not to generalize about what women want. Not every one is the same, they will respond to different things. Maybe subtle things, but they won't all respond exactly the same to the same thing. I agree about being more direct though.

 

I think the main problem women may have with male honesty, is that male honesty is raw, unadulterated and pretty blunt. Meaning: it lacks tact! As I have said - there is a way to be honest and direct without being offensive. It's on us to find that thin line - even if we have to be offensive occasionally, yes.

 

There is a big difference between being honest about what you desire and treating women like dirt. You can be honest about what you want and desire and not treat women like dirt.

 

This basically.

[joystickd]

I don't know - I try not to generalize about what women want. Not every one is the same, they will respond to different things. Maybe subtle things, but they won't all respond exactly the same to the same thing. I agree about being more direct though.

 

I think the main problem women may have with male honesty, is that male honesty is raw, unadulterated and pretty blunt. Meaning: it lacks tact! As I have said - there is a way to be honest and direct without being offensive. It's on us to find that thin line - even if we have to be offensive occasionally, yes.

 

 

 

This basically.

I will say not all male honesty is blunt. For example a man saying he just wants sex is not blunt. The thing is that a lot of times with honesty we mentally prepare ourselves for a certain response. A lot of times with male honesty its more of it not being what they expected.

[Imported]

Depending on who you are, everything a woman will advise you to do or not do, how to behave to really attract them, can work or not work regardless of them approving it or disapproving it. I will take their comments about fashion, appearance and presentation seriously, but them telling me how to treat them is a fairy tale that doesn't actually work that way in reality. I think deep down, most women are submissive and take well to being treated that way. Not saying to be mean or abusive or anything like that...just saying they are looking for you to be in charge, so act like you are in charge. If you treat them like an equal, you're not in charge.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I think you can be bold, provocative and respectful all at the same time.

 

"Respectful" seems to be an internal trait as much as a behavior, anyway. People who are super concerned with being "nice" (particularly the self-tiltled "nice guys" we are all so familiar with by now) don't necessarily have ANY deep seated sense of respect for other people in general, for women, or for a particular woman they're interested in.

 

Sometimes I think it takes good self esteem to even be capable of approaching life and humans in general from a position of respect. And it's pretty attractive.

[joystickd]

I think you can be bold, provocative and respectful all at the same time.

 

"Respectful" seems to be an internal trait as much as a behavior, anyway. People who are super concerned with being "nice" (particularly the self-tiltled "nice guys" we are all so familiar with by now) don't necessarily have ANY deep seated sense of respect for other people in general, for women, or for a particular woman they're interested in.

 

Sometimes I think it takes good self esteem to even be capable of approaching life and humans in general from a position of respect. And it's pretty attractive.

To a lot of people there is a disconnect with those qualities. Most think you cannot be all three at the same time. It's either or with them

[Titanwolf]

You don't have to be naturally good looking. Charisma and charm are wonderful things to have and they are traits that anyone can develop. I've had my share of women approaching me, just because they loved my presentation (in college) and I'm just your average Joe. Charisma is definitely underrated, work on it.

Edited September 24, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
deleted quote

[Mme. Chaucer]

To a lot of people there is a disconnect with those qualities. Most think you cannot be all three at the same time. It's either or with them

 

 

Yeah but they're wrong.

 

I used to be a person with very poor self esteem and I did want very badly to know that there were others beneath me; I used that to try to feel "better" about myself.

 

As I developed my self esteem more, I also developed a completely new way of understanding respect.

 

I'm not always in touch with it and don't always act on it (as I demonstrate around here at intervals!).

 

Where it can really come into play in the man/ woman thing I see around here all the time.

 

So many men are trying to get a handle on their fear of rejection, shyness, stuffed anger, and other stuff by putting women down and then trying to "use" women.

 

I think the true position of strength - even if a guy were looking for nothing more than casual sex - would be to respect the women as peers, to respect the women's sexuality and "personhood" as equal to his own. And to probably choose not to approach sex as "using" another person ever. I've actually seen this a lot among my 25 year old daughter's peers.

 

There is a LOT of power in that. And it has nothing to do with kowtowing to women or putting women on a pedestal or anything like that.

[Titanwolf]

It's hard to be positively charismatic when you're so pessimistic. Actually (bar NFL players for genetic reasons) yes anyone can become a big time ceo or nuclear physicist if they just work on it. The reason why just ANYONE can't become those, is because they lack the drive to do so. They would rather take the path with least resistance and settle there. There's nothing wrong with that, but for people like you who clearly wants that (in this case charisma) settling for what you have now isn't rewarding. Do something about it. If you've tried and failed, seek advice, ask for help. But you have to approach the problem from an angle where it's impossible to fail, in your mind at least. Never expect failure.

Edited September 24, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Mrlonelyone]

Most women want a man direct with them. Some of the biggest problems in dating come from not being direct about what we want. I will say with your thread the biggest problem with some of the women on there is one problem that some women have and that is they hate male honesty. We all want people to be honest with us but in some case women cannot handle honesty from men. As a man on some level to have success you have to be honest.

 

I agree with this. It comes down to women who don't want to admit that they want the same things as the men they choose.

 

It goes beyond sex to relationships too. You know, the old problem of a man who wants a relationship but when he tries to make things more serious or take the next steps the woman will bolt. The stereotype is that men are "afraid of commitment". Women come on here and write" why the man I am with for 4 5 6 8 years won't commit?" Then when such a man does want to marry them... they don't want it and blame him not asking sooner! WTH, WTF?

 

The truth is women pick the men they lay with and how they will be treated. A guy is who he is, he may change, but if it's real change it will be for him not you.

 

Women create the men who read these PUA books by saying they want to be treated one way, then making choices which get them treated in negative ways. Men confuse women in different ways, but they usually mean what they say.

[joystickd]

I agree with this. It comes down to women who don't want to admit that they want the same things as the men they choose.

 

It goes beyond sex to relationships too. You know, the old problem of a man who wants a relationship but when he tries to make things more serious or take the next steps the woman will bolt. The stereotype is that men are "afraid of commitment". Women come on here and write" why the man I am with for 4 5 6 8 years won't commit?" Then when such a man does want to marry them... they don't want it and blame him not asking sooner! WTH, WTF?

 

The truth is women pick the men they lay with and how they will be treated. A guy is who he is, he may change, but if it's real change it will be for him not you.

 

Women create the men who read these PUA books by saying they want to be treated one way, then making choices which get them treated in negative ways. Men confuse women in different ways, but they usually mean what they say.

Women and the thought that men are afraid to commit. The crazy thing is a man can tell them that maybe that man might not want to commit to you and they get mad.

 

I bold that statement because women need to let that sink in.

[Woggle]

The trick is to never hand a woman your balls and only hand the worthy ones your heart. Make her earn your heart and that way she will appreciate more. It's similar to how somebody appreciates something more when they had to earn than when they have it handed to them. If you bend over backwards for a woman simply because she is born female and looks decent she will not appreciate it because there are ten other chumps willing to do the same. If she has to prove she is worthy of that kind of treatment she will do more to keep it when if she does earn it.

 

Also we need to start teaching boys that while yes they should respect women they should never be a doormat for anybody.

[phineas]

I used to think my mother was wrong & the way she brought me up don't work any more.

 

But, it does. You just have to go back for the 2nd course which is after you divorce the harpy & mom wants to beat her with the fire place poker.

 

Then she tells you to just have fun with her because she has too much baggage for living with.

 

Essentially, I don't treat the women I meet badly but until they prove themselves to me, they aren't a priority & their not getting special treatment.

 

Once they show me their genuinely interested in me, stick around, don't play games or show disrespect I start treating them.

But, that takes months.

 

Not going to go overboard for a woman who's just using me so she isn't alone until someone she really wants to be with comes into her sites.

[joystickd]

I remember a few months back I got on a thread and mention I believed in terms of men and dating mother was wrong. One or two women jumped on me for it with a lot anger. On some level there is with some women a failure to fully be able to articulate to a male about dating and women in terms of what truly works. They give how it ideally should work but not how it really works.

[carhill]

I learned respect for/treatment of women, and people in general, from my father. I watched how he treated my mother and people in general and listened to his words of advice about remaining true to one's beliefs and codes of behavior.

 

In dealing with the women of my generation, in general, it was an inappropriate example and misguided advice, but life experience would teach those lessons. It isn't so much an issue of lacking tact and decorum, situationally or globally, but rather selecting people with whom one's intrinsic style of interaction is synergistic, appreciated and reciprocated. After many years of trying to pound a square peg into a round hole, I finally got it. The slate is clean. Life is good.

[PJKino]

With women its a thin line between hate and being turned on.

 

My friend who all the married women in my social circle overly flirt with and have crossed the line at times with would always talk about how arrogant he is and how he thinks hes better then everyone else but the moment he jokingly flirted with them they tried to take it to the next level with him

 

So i dont know if his cockiness and attitude in a way turned them on a little or maybe its as simple as hes good looking and a women willl still be physically turned on no matter how much of an ass you are in general and if he wasnt attractive physically maybe hed be called a creep for how he acts