The act of infidelity

[Summer Breeze]

 

I've gone it alone before, started over with my son twice, so - like you - it's not a fear thing. I just don't know whether I would be more invested and more open to the idea of a full reconciliation process.

 

I obviously don't know how old you are but do you think it could be an age thing? Possibly as you get older thoughts change? I'm not necessarily saying this to you SG but anyone who wants to answer about how age might change the dealbreaker status.

[MissBee]

This is what has always confused me.

 

So, to be married to a cheater is unacceptable, but one will be with a cheater (MM), as long as he's cheating on someone else and not you. Well, if cheating is unacceptable to you (general) then how does it becomes acceptable?

 

It's almost as if saying, I won't be with a cheater but I will. I don't get it.

 

This came to mind as well.

 

It seems strange to have a strict no infidelity policy, while being able to stomach someone who practices infidelity. They may not be cheating on you, but does that matter? It seems like such a fine line. Like, I don't respect thieves, zero tolerance policy for theft; however, he's never actually stolen from me, he just steals from other people...so doesn't matter. It boggles my mind personally. I think of people as they are...not just with me...but with those that came before me, with friends, family etc. I'm not saying "Once a cheater always a cheater"...I just find it interesting how if you feel so strongly about infidelity how you can completely ignore or distance yourself from the fact that your partner seems to have no problems with it. That's the truth. They obviously have no problems with it/they obviously are engaged in it...sooo besides the reason of, well they aren't cheating on you, what other good reasons are there for being with a cheater while having a zero tolerance policy?

 

 

I think it would be hard for me to reconcile after an A; however, I leave room for it being a possibility, depending on lots of things. But I just find it hazy to draw the line in the sand while with a cheater essentially, to say it's unacceptable. I also find it even more odd when one was a BS who had a zero policy stance on infidelity and the one reverses roles. The reasons why we do as we do are often not as clear and free of contradiction as we'd like sometimes, I get that, but I imagine that were I a BS I would run so far away from ANY man currently doing to his spouse what my former spouse did to me. Like my personal standard and even self-protection mechanism wouldn't allow me to get into a situation that is a reversal of a bad situation I left.

[Spark1111]

I don't care what the BS thinks of me and that isn't meant to be a snidey comment. It never mattered to me what she thought any more than it would matter to her what I thought on the ddays.

 

I never hid the R from anyone in my family or my friends. I never hid the fact he was M and I never hid him. I had no R with her at all and I told him from the start that if she every approached me or asked questions I would not lie for him. I didn't like what he did but I did understand why he thought he couldn't leave at the time. I didn't agree with it but I understood his feelings. I have no problem with my involvement in it and never have. I would have much preferred if he were single so we could have had a proper R from the start but that's not what he chose and I went into it until I didn't want to be there anymore.

 

Ok, so here is what is so hard for me to wrap my head around.....

 

You alone know so well the pain of betrayal, yet you and many others went ahead to have relationships with a MM.

 

If his wife found out and, unlike you, did NOT want to divorce, started sobbing and crying to both him and you....wouldn't that affect you?

 

Or would you still feel as if, well that is their issue?

 

Could you predict with confidence that you would STILL feel this way?

 

Because to take no stock of the feelings of the third person in the triangle seems awfully cold and unempathetic to me.

 

And yes, I do hold my H's fOW accountable for the very reasons you mention. Her xH left her for his AP and they have been happily married for many years.

 

Yet, she still despises him with an anger that can only be ascribed to having residual feelings for him.

 

She alone knew the pain of that, was still dealing with that, when she and my H engaged in their affair.

 

So yes...today I believe some affairs are about love, some sex, and some are replaying a subconcious need for empowerment, where the former victim (BS) gets to try on the role of victor (OW).

[MissBee]

Ok, so here is what is so hard for me to wrap my head around.....

 

You alone know so well the pain of betrayal, yet you and many others went ahead to have relationships with a MM.

 

If his wife found out and, unlike you, did NOT want to divorce, started sobbing and crying to both him and you....wouldn't that affect you?

 

Or would you still feel as if, well that is their issue?

 

Could you predict with confidence that you would STILL feel this way?

 

Because to take no stock of the feelings of the third person in the triangle seems awfully cold and unempathetic to me.

 

And yes, I do hold my H's fOW accountable for the very reasons you mention. Her xH left her for his AP and they have been happily married for many years.

 

Yet, she still despises him with an anger that can only be ascribed to having residual feelings for him.

 

She alone knew the pain of that, was still dealing with that, when she and my H engaged in their affair.

 

So yes...today I believe some affairs are about love, some sex, and some are replaying a subconcious need for empowerment, where the former victim (BS) gets to try on the role of victor (OW).

 

To the bolded.

 

It reminds me of when I was pledging into a sorority and we had pledging and hazing rituals essentially. A lot of it was completely unnecessary and simply the older members power tripping. We hated it with a passion and I felt so conflicted about it. Yet come next year, we found ourselves doing the SAME things to the incoming people. In one of our board meetings the sentiment was said out loud, "It's their turn...we went through all of that so they have to do it too and now that we're in charge, can't wait to do it to them!" It was pretty sick and at the time it did make me uncomfortable, although I participated to a lesser degree. But it was this feeling of you were powerless and were put through all that at the time and now that you have the chance to be in the SAME situation, with a role reversal, where you are "in the know" and not at the mercy of others, you will take it and be empowered.

 

That comes to mind when I think of a BS turned OW. I do think perhaps there is some of that subconsciously at play for many. It's like with anything, when people are victims of abuse, some people respond by being averse to that type of behavior in any form, some resort to recreating those situations over and over again where they are still the victim, and others reverse it where they now get the power to be the abuser.

[Silly_Girl]

"The power to be the abuser"...?

 

I have never viewed the OW as an 'abuser'. Pretty strong language there.

[MissBee]

"The power to be the abuser"...?

 

I have never viewed the OW as an 'abuser'. Pretty strong language there.

 

Wasn't equating OW to abusers literally. I was explaining the 3 responses of victims of abuse and how I see parallels between that and the BS turned OW situation as well as in the pledging situation. The "power to abuse" in those situations can be equated to having your role reversed where you get to be "in the know" and not at the mercy of the situation as you once were. The analogy was not about abuse, but the power, which comes from taking a role of being in the know and feeling like you're acting willfully versus being blindsided and having infidelity happen to you. Hope that clarifies.

[AnotherRound]

To the bolded.

 

It reminds me of when I was pledging into a sorority and we had pledging and hazing rituals essentially. A lot of it was completely unnecessary and simply the older members power tripping. We hated it with a passion and I felt so conflicted about it. Yet come next year, we found ourselves doing the SAME things to the incoming people. In one of our board meetings the sentiment was said out loud, "It's their turn...we went through all of that so they have to do it too and now that we're in charge, can't wait to do it to them!" It was pretty sick and at the time it did make me uncomfortable, although I participated to a lesser degree. But it was this feeling of you were powerless and were put through all that at the time and now that you have the chance to be in the SAME situation, with a role reversal, where you are "in the know" and not at the mercy of others, you will take it and be empowered.

 

That comes to mind when I think of a BS turned OW. I do think perhaps there is some of that subconsciously at play for many. It's like with anything, when people are victims of abuse, some people respond by being averse to that type of behavior in any form, some resort to recreating those situations over and over again where they are still the victim, and others reverse it where they now get the power to be the abuser.

 

As a former BW and then a former OW, I can confidently say that I did not enter into the A in an effort to "get back" at someone that I didn't know? ExMM wasn't honest with me initially about being married, and then when I figured it out, I was already too involved and chose not to leave the situation. There was no thought of "abusing" his stbxw in any way, as I did not know her from Adam, and wasn't trying to inflict pain or revenge on anyone.

 

And, remembering back, I wasn't even trying to get revenge on the OW of my exH, so it seems odd that if I wanted power or revenge, that I wouldn't have exercised that with him and/or her - not some strangers I met years later?

 

I have never denied that an OW is normally in a much less vulnerable position than a BS. And, have said here, and often, that if I had to choose between being one or the other, I would always choose to be the OW - as the BS who is being deceived is at a terrible disadvantage in the whole triangle. But, if I could choose ANY situation, I would just choose to not be a BS or an OW. So, in my case, there was no "subconscious" need to harm someone else.

 

In fact, reading your post about hazing other people crosses MY moral code. I would have NEVER participated in that, especially not as the person in "power". So, we all have our limits, and our own moral guides I guess as to what is acceptable and isn't. I could never purposely and publicly abuse someone else actively simply bc I had chosen to subject myself to it the year before.

[Spark1111]

As a former BW and then a former OW, I can confidently say that I did not enter into the A in an effort to "get back" at someone that I didn't know? ExMM wasn't honest with me initially about being married, and then when I figured it out, I was already too involved and chose not to leave the situation. There was no thought of "abusing" his stbxw in any way, as I did not know her from Adam, and wasn't trying to inflict pain or revenge on anyone.

 

And, remembering back, I wasn't even trying to get revenge on the OW of my exH, so it seems odd that if I wanted power or revenge, that I wouldn't have exercised that with him and/or her - not some strangers I met years later?

 

I have never denied that an OW is normally in a much less vulnerable position than a BS. And, have said here, and often, that if I had to choose between being one or the other, I would always choose to be the OW - as the BS who is being deceived is at a terrible disadvantage in the whole triangle. But, if I could choose ANY situation, I would just choose to not be a BS or an OW. So, in my case, there was no "subconscious" need to harm someone else.

 

In fact, reading your post about hazing other people crosses MY moral code. I would have NEVER participated in that, especially not as the person in "power". So, we all have our limits, and our own moral guides I guess as to what is acceptable and isn't. I could never purposely and publicly abuse someone else actively simply bc I had chosen to subject myself to it the year before.

 

So then...you did NOT feel emotionally violated to discover your spouse's affair? And you NEVER had a fleeting thought as to what sort of person engages in a secret affair with a married partner?

 

And YOU never felt that person partook, albeit to a lesser degree than your spouse, in hurting you too?

 

Because, of course, infidelity is a form of abuse, and an abuse of power to the unsuspecting spouse.

 

Did she think your spouse was single, or separated and heading to divorce?

 

Because I would give that a pass, too.

 

But, I disagree, that the AP is completely blameless, whether she did it for money or sex or emotions.

 

Married will never equal single. She knew your H was married. And I do NOT subscribe to if not her, or me, than it would be anyone.

 

That's impossible. It has to be 50% of the population that believes they are not responsible for abetting in the destruction of the marriage.

 

The other 50% would NEVER touch a married person with a 10-ft. pole.

[MissBee]

As a former BW and then a former OW, I can confidently say that I did not enter into the A in an effort to "get back" at someone that I didn't know? ExMM wasn't honest with me initially about being married, and then when I figured it out, I was already too involved and chose not to leave the situation. There was no thought of "abusing" his stbxw in any way, as I did not know her from Adam, and wasn't trying to inflict pain or revenge on anyone.

 

And, remembering back, I wasn't even trying to get revenge on the OW of my exH, so it seems odd that if I wanted power or revenge, that I wouldn't have exercised that with him and/or her - not some strangers I met years later?

 

I have never denied that an OW is normally in a much less vulnerable position than a BS. And, have said here, and often, that if I had to choose between being one or the other, I would always choose to be the OW - as the BS who is being deceived is at a terrible disadvantage in the whole triangle. But, if I could choose ANY situation, I would just choose to not be a BS or an OW. So, in my case, there was no "subconscious" need to harm someone else.

 

In fact, reading your post about hazing other people crosses MY moral code. I would have NEVER participated in that, especially not as the person in "power". So, we all have our limits, and our own moral guides I guess as to what is acceptable and isn't. I could never purposely and publicly abuse someone else actively simply bc I had chosen to subject myself to it the year before.

 

 

The key thing I said was, for some it's perhaps a subconscious motivation. You are speaking about nowhere did you plan on it or have abuse in mind. I know enough about humans to know that a lot of our behavior does not emanate from conscious processes and that was the idea I was holding when I said that's probably a subconscious motivation for some. I have no idea if this was the case for you or anyone else...but I was theorizing in general about reasons why a BS would become an OW. Whether or not you did this, or believed you did this, doesn't invalidate the theory.

 

The aspect about hazing people was an illustration of that kind of thinking process, using an experience I had my freshman year of college, and the question of whether or not it is something you would or would not have done is kind of...irrelevant.

[AnotherRound]

The key thing I said was, for some it's perhaps a subconscious motivation. You are speaking about nowhere did you plan on it or have abuse in mind. I know enough about humans to know that a lot of our behavior does not emanate from conscious processes and that was the idea I was holding when I said that's probably a subconscious motivation for some. I have no idea if this was the case for you or anyone else...but I was theorizing in general about reasons why a BS would become an OW. Whether or not you did this, or believed you did this, doesn't invalidate the theory.

 

The aspect about hazing people was an illustration of that kind of thinking process, using an experience I had my freshman year of college, and the question of whether or not it is something you would or would not have done is kind of...irrelevant.

 

I addressed the "subconscious" thing. I disagree with you in my situation, that's all.

 

And as for the hazing, it IS relevant. Because it proves that we operate with different moral codes - and boundaries. Something that seems absolutely wrong to me was acceptable for you to participate in, and vice versa. That's the WHOLE point... lol. That it is relative.

[Summer Breeze]

This came to mind as well.

 

It seems strange to have a strict no infidelity policy, while being able to stomach someone who practices infidelity. They may not be cheating on you, but does that matter? It seems like such a fine line. Like, I don't respect thieves, zero tolerance policy for theft; however, he's never actually stolen from me, he just steals from other people...so doesn't matter. It boggles my mind personally. I think of people as they are...not just with me...but with those that came before me, with friends, family etc. I'm not saying "Once a cheater always a cheater"...I just find it interesting how if you feel so strongly about infidelity how you can completely ignore or distance yourself from the fact that your partner seems to have no problems with it. That's the truth. They obviously have no problems with it/they obviously are engaged in it...sooo besides the reason of, well they aren't cheating on you, what other good reasons are there for being with a cheater while having a zero tolerance policy?

He didn't like it at all. Neither did I. He had reasons he thought required him to stay and there was nothing I could do about his thoughts or those reasons. The same reasons that kept him from leaving were the ones that kept her from leaving when the ddays rolled around. He thought he was doing the right thing by not leaving and nothing I could say changed that. I made the choice to carry on and while I understood his reasons I did not agree with them but that was his choice. My choice was to carry on the R I had with someone I loved. If you want more specific detail I think there's more earlier in this thread. Good reasons for being involved with him--all of the good reasons you enter into an R with anyone you love and if he'd lied to me or cheated on me I'd have ended it.

 

 

I think it would be hard for me to reconcile after an A; however, I leave room for it being a possibility, depending on lots of things. But I just find it hazy to draw the line in the sand while with a cheater essentially, to say it's unacceptable. I also find it even more odd when one was a BS who had a zero policy stance on infidelity and the one reverses roles. The reasons why we do as we do are often not as clear and free of contradiction as we'd like sometimes, I get that, but I imagine that were I a BS I would run so far away from ANY man currently doing to his spouse what my former spouse did to me. Like my personal standard and even self-protection mechanism wouldn't allow me to get into a situation that is a reversal of a bad situation I left.

When I met him it was years and years after I'd been a BS and quite frankly being a BS didn't define me any more than being an OW did. I was a woman who developed feelings and an R with a man who made himself available. I didn't go into the situation lightly but I did make the choice to go in. As far as running from any man who made me the BS, if I'd have been involved with someone and found out he wasn't single I'd have immediately kicked him aside for the lie. We all have different thoughts and things we'll accept or won't.

 

I understand what you're saying and I respect your thoughts but I feel differently. As I said before I'd never been involved, or even close to it, with a MM before him so it's nothing I subconsciously was looking for. I met a man and we both made a series of decisions and had an A. If I had been his BS I'd have kicked his a$$ to the curb but that was her choice. I have no problem reconciling the fact I wouldn't stay with someone who cheated on me but he made the decision to cheat on his W. If he did it to me it would be a whole different story.

 

I hope I hit all of the important parts. I'm trying to multi task and not sure if I'm doing it well!

 

Thanks Miss Bee

[Summer Breeze]

Ok, so here is what is so hard for me to wrap my head around.....

 

You alone know so well the pain of betrayal, yet you and many others went ahead to have relationships with a MM.

 

If his wife found out and, unlike you, did NOT want to divorce, started sobbing and crying to both him and you....wouldn't that affect you?

 

Or would you still feel as if, well that is their issue?

 

Could you predict with confidence that you would STILL feel this way?

 

Because to take no stock of the feelings of the third person in the triangle seems awfully cold and unempathetic to me.

 

And yes, I do hold my H's fOW accountable for the very reasons you mention. Her xH left her for his AP and they have been happily married for many years.

 

Yet, she still despises him with an anger that can only be ascribed to having residual feelings for him.

 

She alone knew the pain of that, was still dealing with that, when she and my H engaged in their affair.

 

So yes...today I believe some affairs are about love, some sex, and some are replaying a subconcious need for empowerment, where the former victim (BS) gets to try on the role of victor (OW).

 

We did have conversations after the ddays and we both ended up sobbing several times. There were a lot of angry moments and a lot of silences too but we did both shed tears and oddly enough comforted each other.

 

You have every right to feel any way at all to his OW. My line of thought is my black and white thoughts on my xHs actions and no focus on his OW. I wouldn't tolerate the act of him cheating and it didn't matter who or what the circumstances were. That's what I was trying to get across on this thread - the correlation between the lack of tolerance and 100% responsibility on the WS.

 

Trust me hon, if I needed to become an OW to become empowered I wouldn't have waited 25 years to do it! By the way, I was the victor because I got a gorgeous daughter and a life devoid of worrying about what he might get up to. She was also the victor because she did love him and they have had what I believe to be a very good M.

[Silly_Girl]

 

And YOU never felt that person partook, albeit to a lesser degree than your spouse, in hurting you too?

 

 

For me, never ever ever. I think some people are never going to be able to understand that, but SB is right, you have every right to feel how you do/did towards the OW.

[eleanorrigby]

When people say you never know your reaction till you're faced with it -- that wasn't me. If you have been faced infidelity and chosen to stay do you think you compromised your principles? Was it a matter of circumstance and/or time softening your thoughts?

 

I thought I would have acted completely differently. I thought I would have thrown him out the moment I was sure and divorced.

I don't feel I compromised my principles. It definitely was the hardest road to choose, not giving up. But for me it was the road that led me to the happiest place. My thoughts on affairs has not softened, but I've always had a soft spot for my husband.

[MissBee]

I addressed the "subconscious" thing. I disagree with you in my situation, that's all.

 

And as for the hazing, it IS relevant. Because it proves that we operate with different moral codes - and boundaries. Something that seems absolutely wrong to me was acceptable for you to participate in, and vice versa. That's the WHOLE point... lol. That it is relative.

 

That short illustration, in which I also said I was uncomfortable, doesn't details my morals and boundaries; however, one could extrapolate a bit about my morals, as if they were in line with that, then there would be no need to feel uncomfortable. In any case AR, if you want to know about my morals and boundaries, ask...but something I uncomfortably did at 18 years old doesn't give you any information except about my just out of high school, naivety at the time and not who and how I am and how I choose to conduct myself as an adult. 18 to me, I was still a kid and it would be very different if I was coming here to say I did that last week. So to figure out my morals, that story of what I reluctantly participated in years ago, without even detailing the extent of my participation is not enough and not relevant.

[Summer Breeze]

To the bolded.

 

It reminds me of when I was pledging into a sorority and we had pledging and hazing rituals essentially. A lot of it was completely unnecessary and simply the older members power tripping. We hated it with a passion and I felt so conflicted about it. Yet come next year, we found ourselves doing the SAME things to the incoming people. In one of our board meetings the sentiment was said out loud, "It's their turn...we went through all of that so they have to do it too and now that we're in charge, can't wait to do it to them!" It was pretty sick and at the time it did make me uncomfortable, although I participated to a lesser degree. But it was this feeling of you were powerless and were put through all that at the time and now that you have the chance to be in the SAME situation, with a role reversal, where you are "in the know" and not at the mercy of others, you will take it and be empowered.

 

That comes to mind when I think of a BS turned OW. I do think perhaps there is some of that subconsciously at play for many. It's like with anything, when people are victims of abuse, some people respond by being averse to that type of behavior in any form, some resort to recreating those situations over and over again where they are still the victim, and others reverse it where they now get the power to be the abuser.

 

Interestingly enough I refused the sororities that tried to get me during rush. I hated the whole hazing thing and refused to let myself be a victim to it.

[Summer Breeze]

I thought I would have acted completely differently. I thought I would have thrown him out the moment I was sure and divorced.

I don't feel I compromised my principles. It definitely was the hardest road to choose, not giving up. But for me it was the road that led me to the happiest place. My thoughts on affairs has not softened, but I've always had a soft spot for my husband.

 

Thanks ER. I like the bit about a soft spot for your H!

 

It's interesting to me to see why people accept it. No maybe not accept it but deal with it and move on from it is a better way of putting it.

 

As I said in an earlier post here it's not that easy to walk away either. I can't say which is harder because I've only lived the walking away option. I can say I'm really glad you've found your 'happiest place'.

 

Thank you

 

Oh and yes--Spark I didn't thank you and I can't edit my response to your post! So Spark THANK YOU!

[Ladydrib]

.

 

Fast forward to the moment I confronted him about his A. I had no proof, only a gut feeling and it was more than confirmed by the look on his face. He begged me to forgive him and stay. I couldn't be so cruel as to take his daughter away. I have to admit I gave staying some very minor thoughts. I left soon after and started the D immediately.

 

I don't understand how anything that is said or done can counter the act of infidelity and the constant betrayal by the WS to the BS. I have gained a lot of respect for BS who have reconciled but I don't know as I will ever understand the reasoning of history and kids. Anything actually. To me the act of infidelity wipes out every good act that's been done.

 

The one thing I wonder is this. I never once blamed his OW. She had nothing to do with him cheating on me. He could have had a ONS and that would still have brought about the same result. He cheated on me. The OW meant nothing. The fact my H betrayed me and cheated on me meant everything. That was the only fact that meant anything. He could have had a string of ONS, or just 1. He could have hired a prostitute or gone for lapdances. In all of those cases he would have cheated and there would have been no OW to collect any of the blame.

 

To me it is the actual act of infidelity that is unforgivable. And to me it is completely unforgiveable. When people say you never know your reaction till you're faced with it -- that wasn't me. If you have been faced infidelity and chosen to stay do you think you compromised your principles? Was it a matter of circumstance and/or time softening your thoughts?

 

Is my black or white stance on infidelity the crux of my not blaming the OW in my case and for not shouldering the blame in my A?

 

I don'tknow if I actually have a real question here. It's more like a point to discuss and I do hope I've voiced it well enough.

 

I have so much respect for you in reading your balanced and logical perspective here. Also, I believe you made the absolute right decision. I also have been the BS and you're right. It negates everthing positive and everything you thought you knew about your husband.

 

Obviously everyone is different and every situation is different. The ability to forgive (accept the cheating husband back) I believe is a function of many things, but primarily one thing - if you had an awareness of the relationship being in a critical state, though open and honest communication.

 

It's my opinion that if you accept a cheating husband back, you are in a sense agreeing to being an other woman. Especially since it was behind your back. Why go through the pain of trying to mend that when you can pick yourself up, put yourself back together, and meet another man who you can start fresh with. That's the way I see it.

 

And you are so right not to blame the other woman. I believe doing that deceives oneself because it distracts the BS from the genuine issue, that their husband betrayed them. Blaming the OW would make it easier to stay, but isn't that in a sense being dishonest with yourself?

 

I admire you for leaving him.

[2sure]

I agree that OW was a symptom of the problem...and knew that there was no use focusing on her at all because she could be and was , anyone willing.

That is why I initially tried to stay and reconcile. I knew that the cheating was not done to specifically to hurt me. I knew that in his mind it was not important to him. I thought that whatever was broken in him ...it was worth trying to fix.

 

It was totally worth trying to fix, but alas, his problem was not fixable.

[UpwardForward]

I think a person can be in a phase of their life where they may feel uplifted and excited, while in an adventure, as an A.

 

A few years later they may feel deep regret or shame when reflecting back to the period.

 

IMO, this is what can keep the M together. The fact that the WS has repented and shows they wish to proceed w their spouse and M, anew .. and forgiven.

[Spark1111]

I agree that OW was a symptom of the problem...and knew that there was no use focusing on her at all because she could be and was , anyone willing.

That is why I initially tried to stay and reconcile. I knew that the cheating was not done to specifically to hurt me. I knew that in his mind it was not important to him. I thought that whatever was broken in him ...it was worth trying to fix.

 

It was totally worth trying to fix, but alas, his problem was not fixable.

 

So, I ask you 2sure, who has been both an OW and then, a devastated BS.....whould you NOW knowingly engage in another relationship with a MM?

 

I know you LOVED your H. Could you be an OW ever again? Would you feel his relationship with his spouse was their business, and that you were not a willing participant in the betrayal of an unsuspecting BS?

[Spark1111]

Only read your post ^^^.... but I do believe the married person shoulders the majority of the blame, but I also believe the AP is also to blame. The AP knows the married person is married and doesn't care. IMHO - it seems many betrayed spouses become OW ...which is amazing to me seeing how so many of the "now OW" talk about how hurt they were by their spouse cheating and the pain being so deep and heart breaking. Yet...so many turn around and become an OW. I don't get that at all.

 

My ex H and I never discussed infidelity - I don't think couples who really love each other have to discuss "if you cheat on me, I'm done" or whatever. It is a GIVEN when you chose to marry someone that you will be faithful and respectful and NOT cheat; but to communicate and discuss issues and either resolve them or divorce. The 'easy' answer is to cheat. The coward's way is to cheat. IMHO.

 

I don't know how an OW can ever trust the MM she is seeing IF they ever become a 'true' couple <as in being out in the open and EVERYONE truly knowing about it and neither party being married or committed to someone else>.

 

It is also interesting to me that usually it is the now-OW who state they don't blame the OW for their past partners cheating...maybe more justification for their decision to be an AP?

 

ETA: I just saw this and could NOT disagree more. Using that logic, how does ANY OW wrap their head around their affair, especially if they 'believe' the MM isn't screwing his wife in addition to the OW? How does any OW accept a cheating MM, thereby agreeing to be the OW? Who does that and thinks it is a good idea or a smart decision?

 

This is what confounds me.....

 

Your xspouse's betrayal had little to do with the AP who also helped betray you.

 

Yet, you, despite the pain. go on to become an OW or OM....

 

Yet, to discover they have another OW or OM is a deal breaker, but the spouse? Nah....not a deal breaker at all.

 

So, it is okay to lie and betray the spouse but NOT the OW?

 

And if this person should ever become your spouse, than they should never lie to you. But it is okay to lie to last spouse?

 

Or, if they should decide they are now unhappy married to you, and they have the next and newest OW, it would be okay to then LIE TO YOU, as they did to their xspouse, the one whom they were married to when they had an affair with you?

 

Why do you think the OW deserves the truth, while the spouse does not?

 

This is the double standard I have NEVER been able to wrap my head around....

[AnotherRound]

That short illustration, in which I also said I was uncomfortable, doesn't details my morals and boundaries; however, one could extrapolate a bit about my morals, as if they were in line with that, then there would be no need to feel uncomfortable. In any case AR, if you want to know about my morals and boundaries, ask...but something I uncomfortably did at 18 years old doesn't give you any information except about my just out of high school, naivety at the time and not who and how I am and how I choose to conduct myself as an adult. 18 to me, I was still a kid and it would be very different if I was coming here to say I did that last week. So to figure out my morals, that story of what I reluctantly participated in years ago, without even detailing the extent of my participation is not enough and not relevant.

 

I can extract enough from it to get a pretty good idea. Just as you have extracted enough from one aspect of my life to conclude about my morals. Like I said, it's only relevant in that it proves that we operate from different morality codes. That was the point. I wouldn't have participated in any of that at ANY age - and didn't, through 2 separate colleges. And, I started college at 16 (skipped a couple of grades) and was even younger than you when you started - and I still didn't participate in that. So, it's just a different boundary. I didn't say it identified you completely - but I can get an idea of how your moral code is different from mine from it.

 

No judgment here, just pointing out the difference in morality codes. Not saying yours is wrong - again, just different from mine.

[2sure]

THAT is a question I have been asking myself! And I'm not surprise you ask , because you know me.

 

I am right now at the same place emotionally that I was when I was OW. I am emotionally unavailable. I have lost the vision of myself with a permanent partner. I have little respect for most men. I have not much hope in the idea of fidelity. I have a general mistrust of the world.

 

I like men and enjoy their company. I enjoy my own company. I have desire for sex , but none for intimacy. I want affection without conversation. I'd like some fun without obligation.

 

A man that otherwise had his hands full would fit the bill nicely. A man that could not play games or demand more than I offer, like FWB often do.

 

A MM.

 

No, I could never do that and remain repulsed by the idea.

I will not make another woman more vulnerable so that I could be more fulfilled.

I will not give so much as a piece of myself to someone so willing to give to a stranger what he must take from his family.

I know now that my integrity cannot be taken from me.

I will not ever interact under the radar in someone elses life.

Oh geez...and a man doing that to his wife? Please. I can get so so much better.

 

I won't do anything I would advise my daughter not to.

[MissBee]

I can extract enough from it to get a pretty good idea. Just as you have extracted enough from one aspect of my life to conclude about my morals. Like I said, it's only relevant in that it proves that we operate from different morality codes. That was the point. I wouldn't have participated in any of that at ANY age - and didn't, through 2 separate colleges. And, I started college at 16 (skipped a couple of grades) and was even younger than you when you started - and I still didn't participate in that. So, it's just a different boundary. I didn't say it identified you completely - but I can get an idea of how your moral code is different from mine from it.

 

No judgment here, just pointing out the difference in morality codes. Not saying yours is wrong - again, just different from mine.

 

It wouldn't matter to me whether or not it was a judgment.

 

I don't know what your morality codes are neither do you mine.

 

There are only specific activties you've identified as not wanting to participate in...that doesn't delineate your moral code. That is an example of one thing you wouldn't participate in but I have no idea which of your personal morals it trangresses. Likewise, I could have simply said, "well hazing doens't go against any of my morals"....then it would beg the question to the curious, what are my morals exactly? You wouldn't know what they are simply because I said hazing isn't against it. I hope you're understanding what I'm saying. Not participating in a certain activity doesn't automatically explain your morals, it just explains that you didn't want to participate in that activity. Some people don't eat meat...some it's because they feel killing living things is wrong and their moral system is against killing, for some, they simply don't like meat and it is not some moral dilemma. Likewise some folks have come to the OW/OM board to ask about As and say they don't think affairs are wrong, they just wouldn't do it because of xyz reason. Them not wanting to have an affair was not because of any moral code against it, but it didn't seem pragmatic to them.

 

 

In any case, to bring it back to the larger discussion of As and morality. Having a moral code and always abiding by it are not one and the same. A moral code is about what you ought and ought not to do and what people try as best to do or not do...failure to do an ought or ought not doesn't make it no longer your morals, it just means you've violated said morals.Human experience is complex and people violate codes they believe in sometimes, hence conflict and guilt (which some OW/MP experience) are as a result of having a certain moral code that deems lying or infidelity as wrong, yet, they still participate in it, so that's why they feel badly about it. There is a difference between saying As are not against your moral code versus them being against your moral code, but you participate for XYZ reason. For me, such was the case. I never thought As were okay or acceptable and in line with my values, yet I still participated for reasons I deemed okay or frankly, I didn't care. That would be different from if I had no concept or value system attached to As and felt they were neutral...in such a case no justification to myself, any forum, any person or deity would even cross my mind.

 

From my time on LS I can say that for most people it goes against their morals, yet they participate for reasons they deem justifiable. Only a few claim it is not against their morals and again, that doesn't mean anything, as the question is, okay what are your morals? Simply pointing out an activity you would or wouldn't do doesn't really explain what your morals are.