Summer Breeze Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 I'm not quite sure where to put this thread. I'm opting for here because it's come to mind because of comments made by OW and think it might be more accurately placed here. When my xH and I were planning our wedding and marriage we had discussions about infidelity. We both talked about how neither of us had ever cheated and that a cheating partner would end the M, period. A few times it came up as a byproduct of other topics but I always said it was a dealbreaker. He always agreed. Fast forward to the moment I confronted him about his A. I had no proof, only a gut feeling and it was more than confirmed by the look on his face. He begged me to forgive him and stay. I couldn't be so cruel as to take his daughter away. I have to admit I gave staying some very minor thoughts. I left soon after and started the D immediately. I don't understand how anything that is said or done can counter the act of infidelity and the constant betrayal by the WS to the BS. I have gained a lot of respect for BS who have reconciled but I don't know as I will ever understand the reasoning of history and kids. Anything actually. To me the act of infidelity wipes out every good act that's been done. The one thing I wonder is this. I never once blamed his OW. She had nothing to do with him cheating on me. He could have had a ONS and that would still have brought about the same result. He cheated on me. The OW meant nothing. The fact my H betrayed me and cheated on me meant everything. That was the only fact that meant anything. He could have had a string of ONS, or just 1. He could have hired a prostitute or gone for lapdances. In all of those cases he would have cheated and there would have been no OW to collect any of the blame. To me it is the actual act of infidelity that is unforgivable. And to me it is completely unforgiveable. When people say you never know your reaction till you're faced with it -- that wasn't me. If you have been faced infidelity and chosen to stay do you think you compromised your principles? Was it a matter of circumstance and/or time softening your thoughts? Is my black or white stance on infidelity the crux of my not blaming the OW in my case and for not shouldering the blame in my A? I don'tknow if I actually have a real question here. It's more like a point to discuss and I do hope I've voiced it well enough. 3
AnotherRound Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 I'm not quite sure where to put this thread. I'm opting for here because it's come to mind because of comments made by OW and think it might be more accurately placed here. When my xH and I were planning our wedding and marriage we had discussions about infidelity. We both talked about how neither of us had ever cheated and that a cheating partner would end the M, period. A few times it came up as a byproduct of other topics but I always said it was a dealbreaker. He always agreed. Fast forward to the moment I confronted him about his A. I had no proof, only a gut feeling and it was more than confirmed by the look on his face. He begged me to forgive him and stay. I couldn't be so cruel as to take his daughter away. I have to admit I gave staying some very minor thoughts. I left soon after and started the D immediately. I don't understand how anything that is said or done can counter the act of infidelity and the constant betrayal by the WS to the BS. I have gained a lot of respect for BS who have reconciled but I don't know as I will ever understand the reasoning of history and kids. Anything actually. To me the act of infidelity wipes out every good act that's been done. The one thing I wonder is this. I never once blamed his OW. She had nothing to do with him cheating on me. He could have had a ONS and that would still have brought about the same result. He cheated on me. The OW meant nothing. The fact my H betrayed me and cheated on me meant everything. That was the only fact that meant anything. He could have had a string of ONS, or just 1. He could have hired a prostitute or gone for lapdances. In all of those cases he would have cheated and there would have been no OW to collect any of the blame. To me it is the actual act of infidelity that is unforgivable. And to me it is completely unforgiveable. When people say you never know your reaction till you're faced with it -- that wasn't me. If you have been faced infidelity and chosen to stay do you think you compromised your principles? Was it a matter of circumstance and/or time softening your thoughts? Is my black or white stance on infidelity the crux of my not blaming the OW in my case and for not shouldering the blame in my A? I don'tknow if I actually have a real question here. It's more like a point to discuss and I do hope I've voiced it well enough. I can only speak for myself, obviously, but I had the same reaction. When my exH cheated on me, I found out and confronted it immediately. I called the OW and asked her simply why she and my H were having late night conversations, and she stuttered her way through it. That was all I needed. I didn't threaten her, or yell at her, or anything. I just hung the phone up, and then waited for my H to get home from work to confront him with it. And that's what I did. He was terrified that I was going to go after the OW, or do something to hurt her. It was funny at the time even bc I didn't give her a second thought after that. To me, the big picture was him - she was a very minor detail in it. If he had not cheated with her, he would have cheated with someone - he was desperate to get out of the marriage, and he would have found someone, somewhere. He did fall in love with her, and she was very special to him. But she meant nothing to me. She was a symptom of the problem - not the problem itself. He and I tried to reconcile off and on for a couple of years after the divorce, but the main problem was STILL there. And it wasn't the OW, lol. It was US - together, he and I . We were mismatched, incompatible, not good together. I think that is what a lot of people miss in these situations. They convince themselves that the OP is the problem - the entire problem. And if the AP hadn't come into the picture, there wouldn't be a problem. And that, imo, is simply not seeing the forest for the trees, or vice versa. It is denying that there is a bigger problem - and if that particular AP wasn't there, someone else would have been. Because the problem is the marriage - that relationship is broken, for whatever reason. And no, I don't think it's black/white thinking here. I think you have a dealbreaker - infidelity against you. That's a pretty reasonable dealbreaker - seems fair to me. That's not black and white thinking, it's setting boundaries for yourself. And I think you aren't blaming the OW bc you can see that the OW is simply a minor detail. The bigger picture is that there was something wrong - somewhere - with your relationship. Whether it was just his problem or not, is really pretty irrelevant, as it was obviously a big enough problem that he went outside of the marriage. Interesting thread. 3
Author Summer Breeze Posted September 23, 2012 Author Posted September 23, 2012 I can only speak for myself, obviously, but I had the same reaction. When my exH cheated on me, I found out and confronted it immediately. I called the OW and asked her simply why she and my H were having late night conversations, and she stuttered her way through it. That was all I needed. I didn't threaten her, or yell at her, or anything. I just hung the phone up, and then waited for my H to get home from work to confront him with it. And that's what I did. He was terrified that I was going to go after the OW, or do something to hurt her. It was funny at the time even bc I didn't give her a second thought after that. To me, the big picture was him - she was a very minor detail in it. If he had not cheated with her, he would have cheated with someone - he was desperate to get out of the marriage, and he would have found someone, somewhere. He did fall in love with her, and she was very special to him. But she meant nothing to me. She was a symptom of the problem - not the problem itself. He and I tried to reconcile off and on for a couple of years after the divorce, but the main problem was STILL there. And it wasn't the OW, lol. It was US - together, he and I . We were mismatched, incompatible, not good together. I think that is what a lot of people miss in these situations. They convince themselves that the OP is the problem - the entire problem. And if the AP hadn't come into the picture, there wouldn't be a problem. And that, imo, is simply not seeing the forest for the trees, or vice versa. It is denying that there is a bigger problem - and if that particular AP wasn't there, someone else would have been. Because the problem is the marriage - that relationship is broken, for whatever reason. And no, I don't think it's black/white thinking here. I think you have a dealbreaker - infidelity against you. That's a pretty reasonable dealbreaker - seems fair to me. That's not black and white thinking, it's setting boundaries for yourself. And I think you aren't blaming the OW bc you can see that the OW is simply a minor detail. The bigger picture is that there was something wrong - somewhere - with your relationship. Whether it was just his problem or not, is really pretty irrelevant, as it was obviously a big enough problem that he went outside of the marriage. Interesting thread. The bolded. MM and I had a conversation about this recently. I asked him if he would have found someone else if I hadn't gotten involved. He said he probably would have looked. He knew things weren't great but they had both resigned themselves to the M being what it was. They'd had a few gos at MC but neither of them truly thought it was broken. He said once he'd gotten to the point of no return with me he realized how broken it, and he, were and he probably would have looked again for whatever it was that we had. Thanks for the response AR. I sometimes am amazed how many people do not think of it as being a dealbreaker. I'm not one to settle for things in life and to me it would have been settling. I'm not trying to say that others have settled but to me it would have been just that. 3
AnotherRound Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 The bolded. MM and I had a conversation about this recently. I asked him if he would have found someone else if I hadn't gotten involved. He said he probably would have looked. He knew things weren't great but they had both resigned themselves to the M being what it was. They'd had a few gos at MC but neither of them truly thought it was broken. He said once he'd gotten to the point of no return with me he realized how broken it, and he, were and he probably would have looked again for whatever it was that we had. Thanks for the response AR. I sometimes am amazed how many people do not think of it as being a dealbreaker. I'm not one to settle for things in life and to me it would have been settling. I'm not trying to say that others have settled but to me it would have been just that. It's funny you had a convo about it, as exMM and I did often too, lol. I have been asked on here how I can "accept" that exMM went on to find another OW after I ended it with him last year. The simple answer? The marriage was STILL broken, and he still had the need to have emotional and physical intimacy, and he still didn't want to lose daily access to his child or have to split his assets with someone that had already broken the deal years prior. So, it's pretty simple. He simply formed another relationship. That is what happens when people break up, they move on, form new relationships. They aren't broken forever (normally) and they are able to love and connect again. So, in his situation, the marriage was a non-issue. It was already determined that neither wanted to end it for their own reasons (neither of them stating love as even one of their reasons), and everyone involved was aware of the situation. For me, infidelity is a dealbreaker IF someone is dishonest with me. If my SO came to me and expressed unhappiness, I would do my best to work it out - if I wanted to continue the relationship. If I didn't try to work it out, or couldn't work it out, then I would have no qualms with my SO moving on - but I wouldn't go along for the ride. That's a break up, lol, that's what they are about. Of course, I won't ever be married again, so it would be a lot easier for me to cut my losses. As there would be no reason to stay with me legally - so, if someone doesn't love me anymore, they are free to walk away at any time, or if the relationship is simply not working. I like that a LOT better than holding a marriage certificate over their head and them staying for that alone. I don't want that, someone to feel forced to be with me. If they want to walk away, I want them to be able to - bc I want a relationship based on love, not assets and a legal document. And, I don't have children and I know that complicates it. But honestly, I wouldn't expect a SO to have less than 50% access to our children if they existed. And I would be very open to them having more access, I would never use children as a bargaining chip, or a tool against someone, and would be agreeable to my ex having more than 50% access if we could logistically work it out. But, my SO could walk away from me without having to worry that I would take everything he has worked for, or saved, or built - and that to me makes for a much more honest relationship. 1
TaraMaiden Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 I am of the opinion that Monogamy is an imposed obligation. It's difficult for many people to not stray, or think of straying - but personal Moral values are what set people apart, and different degrees exist. That's not a good thing, it's not a bad thing. They just exist and are what they are. Human beings are not naturally disposed towards 'mating for life' which is really, what monogamy is. We're serial monogamists - we mate for the lifetime of that relationship, but it's up to the individuals, more often than not, to determine how long that will be. And 'death' being the reason for the parting of the ways, was once commonplace, but is now much rarer. Many, many millions of people profess their faith in a legal union every day, by marrying, and taking vows. And it's a sad fact that many, many of those millions of couples, will experience a rift in their marriage, due to infidelity, cheating, adultery, call it what you will. I do not condemn the desire to roam. Often, it's masked or justified by all manner of reasons put forward by the cheaters, but the bottom line is - they felt like it. This, I cannot blame them for. What I do find reprehensible, is the lying. The deceit, the cover-up, the denial, the continued subterfuge, and the repeated 'pulling wool over the BS' eyes. If my H. was unfaithful to me (and he was the on pushing for this marriage, not I) I really couldn't care less that he'd put his pecker elsewhere. It's been elsewhere before... My objection would be to his deciding that lying to me was a better option than being open, honest and up-front about his intentions. He knows how I feel. he knows this is my opinion. I would 'absolve' the Ow of any responsibility if she genuinely had absolutely no idea whatsoever that her lover - my H. - was married. However, a person who implicitly plays into a situation that they know will cause problems, difficulties, heart-ache and tension, is irresponsible, and deserves to carry part of the weight. I appreciate, AnotherRound, that you merely contacted the OW in your case, to confront her. But this, I think, was certainly sufficient initially, to make her perhaps believe that the schytt had hit the fan. You even mention your H's fear that you were going to go after her, or do something to hurt her. Her manner on the 'phone to you, would certainly suggest to me that she had a healthy dose of pricked conscience. The innocent need fear nothing. I find it despicable that some are willing to mess and play, but then expect to get up from the muddied field and proclaim that they are clean of any culpable stain. if you put your finger in the hive to steal the honey, you damn well should expect and accept that you might get stung. And rightly so. No offence intended to anyone. But I object to the kind of behaviour that is entirely hedonistic, with no eye on the consequences, and pain and distress it might cause others. That is just selfish to a degree I find it personally impossible to process. 3
todreaminblue Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 I'm not quite sure where to put this thread. I'm opting for here because it's come to mind because of comments made by OW and think it might be more accurately placed here. When my xH and I were planning our wedding and marriage we had discussions about infidelity. We both talked about how neither of us had ever cheated and that a cheating partner would end the M, period. A few times it came up as a byproduct of other topics but I always said it was a dealbreaker. He always agreed. Fast forward to the moment I confronted him about his A. I had no proof, only a gut feeling and it was more than confirmed by the look on his face. He begged me to forgive him and stay. I couldn't be so cruel as to take his daughter away. I have to admit I gave staying some very minor thoughts. I left soon after and started the D immediately. I don't understand how anything that is said or done can counter the act of infidelity and the constant betrayal by the WS to the BS. I have gained a lot of respect for BS who have reconciled but I don't know as I will ever understand the reasoning of history and kids. Anything actually. To me the act of infidelity wipes out every good act that's been done. The one thing I wonder is this. I never once blamed his OW. She had nothing to do with him cheating on me. He could have had a ONS and that would still have brought about the same result. He cheated on me. The OW meant nothing. The fact my H betrayed me and cheated on me meant everything. That was the only fact that meant anything. He could have had a string of ONS, or just 1. He could have hired a prostitute or gone for lapdances. In all of those cases he would have cheated and there would have been no OW to collect any of the blame. To me it is the actual act of infidelity that is unforgivable. And to me it is completely unforgiveable. When people say you never know your reaction till you're faced with it -- that wasn't me. If you have been faced infidelity and chosen to stay do you think you compromised your principles? Was it a matter of circumstance and/or time softening your thoughts? Is my black or white stance on infidelity the crux of my not blaming the OW in my case and for not shouldering the blame in my A? I don't know if I actually have a real question here. It's more like a point to discuss and I do hope I've voiced it well enough. yes i compromised my principles for staying.yes i did blame the ow for a while in quite a few cases they know of me and quite a few cases they were friends who i had no idea of at the time were sleeping with him and thinking themselves quite clever in deceiving me.....backstabbing me to others saying how dumb and stupid i was.....so yes i blamed them for a while and i blamed my self for staying.......then i just gave up until the last affair which i gave an ultimatum......he decided to go and even though i twas the worst time for me and the kids i picked that moment to deliver the ultimatum i had had enough i was spent.......and he was the one who cashed me in not me....i gave ti everything i could way too long......everything happens for a reason.....it needed to be that way for me.....to get me to this spot right here.......stronger, more sure of what i need to be happy and for the bigger picture everything that has happened every emotion i have felt....has allowed me to put things to rest...i have no ill will.... the ow is in for a bumpy ride and that is not my concern i have a life ....... and its taken a long time for me to accept i deserve it.....thats the place i am at.....my ex and the ow they are in their own place.....1400 and something kilometers away from me and i wish them well.I wont stop the kids from seeing their dad.......he will have to face their questions one day and they are still not fine with how and what he did they wont be...they have huge hearts and they will buck up when he tries to instill values and tell them how to behave that is when he will have to feel awkward.....when they speak up.........i have asked them not too.....to show respect....they have little respect for her either because she knew that he was leaving them at home when he was in her bed not being watched properly( my friend down the road helped me out in this respect)..fed them let them have showers there......these are questions he will have to answer because i dont have them..i have a certain amount of sympathy for them both when that happens.....its not mine to worry about though i didnt do anything wrong i just tried too hard so yes my principles got a beating so did my heart...deb
Author Summer Breeze Posted September 23, 2012 Author Posted September 23, 2012 My husband has paid a very steep price for what he did, but I also put some culpability on the OW. She didn't have to be a participant, but she chose to. I always said that infidelity would be a deal breaker for me but when dday hit, all I knew was that I was still crazy in love with my husband and if he was willing to do the hard work to reconcile, then I would give it a shot. He is aware, however, that it's his only chance. For my own sanity, I know that this is not something I could ever survive again, so if he screws up again, well, that's it. I've set that boundary and it's concrete. I'm not trying to be awkward. This is a real question that I'm asking. If it was a dealbreaker for you then and it didn't break the deal, how do you know it won't break it if there is a next time? I know that WS who reconcile (correctly) pay a steep price but I personally can't get my head around letting them get to the point there is any price they can pay. The only exception I could make would be if he came clean on his own and admitted it rather than got caught. I'm not even 100% certain on that to be honest. If a H has just one OW and it lasts a year or he has a couple of ONS with different women over the year, is the act looked at any differently? Is one any more forgiveable than the other? Not specifically at you Rain, just part of the thought process your post started. Thanks for jumping in.
Author Summer Breeze Posted September 23, 2012 Author Posted September 23, 2012 yes i compromised my principles for staying.yes i did blame the ow for a while in quite a few cases they know of me and quite a few cases they were friends who i had no idea of at the time were sleeping with him and thinking themselves quite clever in deceiving me.....backstabbing me to others saying how dumb and stupid i was.....so yes i blamed them for a while and i blamed my self for staying.......then i just gave up until the last affair which i gave an ultimatum......he decided to go and even though i twas the worst time for me and the kids i picked that moment to deliver the ultimatum i had had enough i was spent.......and he was the one who cashed me in not me....i gave ti everything i could way too long......everything happens for a reason.....it needed to be that way for me.....to get me to this spot right here.......stronger, more sure of what i need to be happy and for the bigger picture everything that has happened every emotion i have felt....has allowed me to put things to rest...i have no ill will.... the ow is in for a bumpy ride and that is not my concern i have a life ....... and its taken a long time for me to accept i deserve it.....thats the place i am at.....my ex and the ow they are in their own place.....1400 and something kilometers away from me and i wish them well.I wont stop the kids from seeing their dad.......he will have to face their questions one day and they are still not fine with how and what he did they wont be...they have huge hearts and they will buck up when he tries to instill values and tell them how to behave that is when he will have to feel awkward.....when they speak up.........i have asked them not too.....to show respect....they have little respect for her either because she knew that he was leaving them at home when he was in her bed not being watched properly( my friend down the road helped me out in this respect)..fed them let them have showers there......these are questions he will have to answer because i dont have them..i have a certain amount of sympathy for them both when that happens.....its not mine to worry about though i didnt do anything wrong i just tried too hard so yes my principles got a beating so did my heart...deb Thanks for that Deb. I do realize that we all come to our own conclusions as to when enough is enough. Your comments about the kids and how you wouldn't keep them from their father struck me. I felt exactly the same with my xH and my daughter. He ruined our R, not me. I wasn't going to be the one to ruin the R he had with her. Sadly he did that as well for a few years. I knew the woman who was the OW in my case but we weren't close or friends. I will honestly say that would be the time I would be concerned with the OW--if she was betraying me as well but even that would be a separate issue I think. Thank you again. You sound like quite a strong gal.
mercy Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 This is what has always confused me. So, to be married to a cheater is unacceptable, but one will be with a cheater (MM), as long as he's cheating on someone else and not you. Well, if cheating is unacceptable to you (general) then how does it becomes acceptable? It's almost as if saying, I won't be with a cheater but I will. I don't get it. 9
Author Summer Breeze Posted September 23, 2012 Author Posted September 23, 2012 This is what has always confused me. So, to be married to a cheater is unacceptable, but one will be with a cheater (MM), as long as he's cheating on someone else and not you. Well, if cheating is unacceptable to you (general) then how does it becomes acceptable? It's almost as if saying, I won't be with a cheater but I will. I don't get it. I didn't cheat on anyone. I got to know a man and developed strong feelings for him and I eventually made the decision to start an A with him. He cheated on her and that was between them. He needed to deal with his decisions and his R with her. Neither of us entered into it lightly and we both had our own issues to deal with. If he had ever lied to me it would have been over. If he lies to me now or if I found out he had another OW it would be over. I have no tolerance for someone doing it to me and I hold them 100% responsible. I see the two things as completely different. My xH betrayed me and my R with him. MM never betrayed me and I would never have accepted it if he had. What he and/or his W do is between them. I can understand what you're asking Mercy but they are two very different things to me. If I were saying that I see no problem with me cheating on a partner but it's a dealbreaker for someone to cheat on me then I'd absolutely agree with you. 1
Author Summer Breeze Posted September 23, 2012 Author Posted September 23, 2012 Good question. I know that if there is a second time, that I won't stay. That deal breaker is an absolute and I don't have any doubt about that because I know that I couldn't survive a second time. Literally. The first time around nearly killed me...the stress induced illnesses (one very serious, others more easily treated) that I've had to deal with are enough to tell me that one time is enough. I won't put my body and soul through that hell again. I'll walk away first. My husband had both an "affair" and ONS and I do see a difference. They both hurt equally, but with the affair came a lot of lies about me and a lot of discussion regarding our personal life. He discussed things that were OURS, so in that respect I think it was worse. There was much more betrayal with the affair vs ONS. The hard work's done and I'll trust he's turned around so you'll never have to face it again and it'll be a moot point. Looking back with 20/20 hindsight do you think you'd go through it again? The health issues and such. Would it have been so bad if you'd not reconciled but actually ended things? I know that's probably a question that can't be answered but if it can be? I can understand what you're saying because that's something I struggled with even after I left xH. Knowing there was that closeness with someone else. I still think, to me, an ONS would have brought the same reaction from me. Maybe not but I think so.
woinlove Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) Summer Breeze, your feelings are perfectly valid. For me, I don't really care if the BW blames me or not, what I really care about is how I feel about myself. I like to treat others who have done me no harm with kindness and respect, I don't like to see others treating them poorly, I don't like to lie and deceive and I don't like to encourage it in others (or participate in it through my actions). Therefore, I blame myself for my role as an OW, because that is not how I like to behave and treat others and it doesn't value the importance I place on honesty and respect. For anyone else, who has no problem with the deception or had no problem being with someone who has to behave in a deceitful way for them to be with you, and has no problem with how this is treating the BS, then, obviously, they will think differently about themselves and be fine with being an OW/OM. I think what is really important is what you think of yourself. If you are happy and confident in yourself, then it matters not a whit what the BS thinks about you. If you have some insecurity in yourself, then what the BS thinks will matter. ETA: I see a lot of OW and some former OW posting here who do care a lot about what the BS thinks, and in those cases, I think self-reflection and learning more about what they really feel about themselves and their own actions, will be worth a lot. Edited September 23, 2012 by woinlove 3
Author Summer Breeze Posted September 23, 2012 Author Posted September 23, 2012 Summer Breeze, your feelings are perfectly valid. For me, I don't really care if the BW blames me or not, what I really care about is how I feel about myself. I like to treat others who have done me no harm with kindness and respect, I don't like to see others treating them poorly, I don't like to lie and deceive and I don't like to encourage it in others (or participate in it through my actions). Therefore, I blame myself for my role as an OW, because that is not how I like to behave and treat others and it doesn't value the importance I place on honesty and respect. For anyone else, who has no problem with the deception or had no problem being with someone who has to behave in a deceitful way for them to be with you, and has no problem with how this is treating the BS, then, obviously, they will think differently about themselves and be fine with being an OW/OM. I think what is really important is what you think of yourself. If you are happy and confident in yourself, then it matters not a whit what the BS thinks about you. If you have some insecurity in yourself, then what the BS thinks will matter. I don't care what the BS thinks of me and that isn't meant to be a snidey comment. It never mattered to me what she thought any more than it would matter to her what I thought on the ddays. I never hid the R from anyone in my family or my friends. I never hid the fact he was M and I never hid him. I had no R with her at all and I told him from the start that if she every approached me or asked questions I would not lie for him. I didn't like what he did but I did understand why he thought he couldn't leave at the time. I didn't agree with it but I understood his feelings. I have no problem with my involvement in it and never have. I would have much preferred if he were single so we could have had a proper R from the start but that's not what he chose and I went into it until I didn't want to be there anymore. 2
Author Summer Breeze Posted September 23, 2012 Author Posted September 23, 2012 Yes, I would do it again if I had to go back. Our reconciliation has been worth every bit of heartache...our marriage is strong and happy and he's a changed man. But to go through it again? No. Once was enough. I don't know if leaving would have been easier or not, but I think it probably would have been because trying to reconcile is hard work vs just walking away. Not to say that those who walk away don't hurt, too, but they don't have the relationship work to do on top of the pain of betrayal. The ONS were hard, too, but for different reasons. It was for fun and kicks and knowing my husband put my life and our marriage at risk for a little fun was a tough pill to swallow. They both hurt, just in different ways and for different reasons. I obviously can't argue against the bolded but would mention that when you walk away you lose the ability to try and get answers. That in itself is one tough thing to do. All of the insecurities and questions just sit there with nowhere to go. Eventually you move past it and deal with it but the nights alone when the kids are tucked in and you want to vent and scream and find out why the f&ck you did it, tear you apart in pretty good shape too. Thanks for being so honest and open.
woinlove Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 I don't care what the BS thinks of me and that isn't meant to be a snidey comment. It never mattered to me what she thought any more than it would matter to her what I thought on the ddays. I never hid the R from anyone in my family or my friends. I never hid the fact he was M and I never hid him. I had no R with her at all and I told him from the start that if she every approached me or asked questions I would not lie for him. I didn't like what he did but I did understand why he thought he couldn't leave at the time. I didn't agree with it but I understood his feelings. I have no problem with my involvement in it and never have. I would have much preferred if he were single so we could have had a proper R from the start but that's not what he chose and I went into it until I didn't want to be there anymore. Thanks, SB. I understand your view and we probably think a bit differently about this. I wasn't directing my arguments to your situation, just to the topic you raise in general. In my own case, being an OW is not how I want to behave, and I don't need any BS to make me think that - it comes from myself. But since I do think that, clearly, I can understand why a BS would think poorly of my behavior as an OW, since I myself do. If a BS did not, then I would conclude we have somewhat different values or standards on what matters and how to treat others. Again, this is just my perspective. 1
mercy Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 I didn't cheat on anyone. I got to know a man and developed strong feelings for him and I eventually made the decision to start an A with him. He cheated on her and that was between them. He needed to deal with his decisions and his R with her. Neither of us entered into it lightly and we both had our own issues to deal with. If he had ever lied to me it would have been over. If he lies to me now or if I found out he had another OW it would be over. I have no tolerance for someone doing it to me and I hold them 100% responsible. I see the two things as completely different. My xH betrayed me and my R with him. MM never betrayed me and I would never have accepted it if he had. What he and/or his W do is between them. I can understand what you're asking Mercy but they are two very different things to me. If I were saying that I see no problem with me cheating on a partner but it's a dealbreaker for someone to cheat on me then I'd absolutely agree with you. The bold ^^ If I have no tolerance for someone doing it to me then I'd have no tolerance for them doing it to another. 10
Author Summer Breeze Posted September 23, 2012 Author Posted September 23, 2012 Thanks, SB. I understand your view and we probably think a bit differently about this. I wasn't directing my arguments to your situation, just to the topic you raise in general. In my own case, being an OW is not how I want to behave, and I don't need any BS to make me think that - it comes from myself. But since I do think that, clearly, I can understand why a BS would think poorly of my behavior as an OW, since I myself do. If a BS did not, then I would conclude we have somewhat different values or standards on what matters and how to treat others. Again, this is just my perspective. Not a problem woinlove. I have to say I never aspired to being an OW and it took me almost 50 years to become one. I always refused any untoward interaction with married men up till that time. Why? I don't know if it was because something inside me said 'it's wrong' or maybe 'it's a hassle you don't need/want to get into'. I never thought about it before and being with an MM was never an option. Then I met someone where the feelings were strong and for whatever reason I didn't dismiss it that time. Your perspective is welcome. I learn from everyone on here, even if I don't share their thoughts or agree with them. Sometimes I read something and all of a sudden it wakes up a spark or something or makes me realize that's what I've been thinking all along and didn't realize. Thank you. 2
AnotherRound Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 I don't care what the BS thinks of me and that isn't meant to be a snidey comment. It never mattered to me what she thought any more than it would matter to her what I thought on the ddays. I never hid the R from anyone in my family or my friends. I never hid the fact he was M and I never hid him. I had no R with her at all and I told him from the start that if she every approached me or asked questions I would not lie for him. I didn't like what he did but I did understand why he thought he couldn't leave at the time. I didn't agree with it but I understood his feelings. I have no problem with my involvement in it and never have. I would have much preferred if he were single so we could have had a proper R from the start but that's not what he chose and I went into it until I didn't want to be there anymore. This is me exactly. Of course, in my situation, the BS did know and had an opportunity (a few actually) to ask me anything, and I would have never lied to her. I just didn't throw it in her face. Call her up and brag about it. But I was there for her to talk to at any time. And agree. I didn't like how exMM was handling it, but I understood it. It wasn't justification, it was just the situation, with a lot of variables and factors. My only issue with the involvement was that it ended up just not working for me the way it was. That was it. I would have felt differently if the BS had not been aware, that would have been a problem for me. I wouldn't have "outed" him, as I wouldn't have seen that as my place. But I wouldn't have participated either. And I wasn't worried what the wife thought of me, and she shouldn't have been worried what I thought of her. To me, it was two completely different relationships for two completely different reasons. She wanted security, and I wanted love. We both got what we wanted, so, I don't see the harm. I do wish that there hadn't been a child involved, bc I thought they were doing their child no favors, but again, that was THEIR relationship, not mine. And if anyone was hurt, it wasn't because of me, it was because of them, their relationship, and the way that they handled it. I had no control over their relationship, and I didn't want any control of it. 1
Author Summer Breeze Posted September 23, 2012 Author Posted September 23, 2012 The bold ^^ If I have no tolerance for someone doing it to me then I'd have no tolerance for them doing it to another. A friend of mine has an adult child that regularly takes advantage of Grandmas babysitting services. I jumped in a couple of times to help out and all of a sudden I realized I was being used. Grandma hated it and felt like she was becoming more of a disciplinarian and service than a Grandma but she wouldn't say no. I did and refused to go along with it anymore. What she deals with and allows is up to her. I wouldn't let myself be treated that way but she did, even after she realized just how bad it was getting. Not to be a pain but the thread is about infidelity being a total dealbreaker and if not why. Specifically infidelity from your partner.
Silly_Girl Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 The women my ex-SO pursued or got involved with were not my concern. Not at all. Really and truly. Only one person deserved the $hit for how he treated me, and that's him. He would, to appease me and persuade me to take him back, offer solutions that removed temptation for him. That was of no interest to me. I wanted to be able to trust him even if Jennifer Aniston were delivered to him naked and covered in his favourite flavoured jam. He owed it to me to be faithful and loyal. At all times, at all costs. If someone really wants to have a romantic/sexual relationship they will eventually find a means, so who they choose is irrelevant to me. It was different when it was a close friend of mine. I went nuts. I was devastated, I never thought SHE'D let me down like that. As for dealbreaker, I have no doubt - as far as I am able to ascertain without it actually happening - that infidelity would be an instant dealbreaker for me. I was in a destructive cycle before and it very sadly became somewhat normalised. I trust my boyfriend so much, more than I ever thought possible after what I've been through previously. I trust him not just to not cheat, but to do his best by me and my son, I trust him with my deepest thoughts and greatest fears. I trust him more than I have ever trusted another adult (including my parents, even) so if he were to cheat I would have to end the relationship immediately. I could not go from this to eyeballing his phone as he uses it, or wonder where he's been if he's late getting to me, or when he's tired and we don't have sex wondering if he's getting it somewhere else. Could not do it. He knows and understands that. It doesn't mean he won't cheat, of course, but we both know the consequences if either of us were to go elsewhere. 4
Author Summer Breeze Posted September 23, 2012 Author Posted September 23, 2012 The women my ex-SO pursued or got involved with were not my concern. Not at all. Really and truly. Only one person deserved the $hit for how he treated me, and that's him. He would, to appease me and persuade me to take him back, offer solutions that removed temptation for him. That was of no interest to me. I wanted to be able to trust him even if Jennifer Aniston were delivered to him naked and covered in his favourite flavoured jam. He owed it to me to be faithful and loyal. At all times, at all costs. If someone really wants to have a romantic/sexual relationship they will eventually find a means, so who they choose is irrelevant to me. It was different when it was a close friend of mine. I went nuts. I was devastated, I never thought SHE'D let me down like that. As for dealbreaker, I have no doubt - as far as I am able to ascertain without it actually happening - that infidelity would be an instant dealbreaker for me. I was in a destructive cycle before and it very sadly became somewhat normalised. I trust my boyfriend so much, more than I ever thought possible after what I've been through previously. I trust him not just to not cheat, but to do his best by me and my son, I trust him with my deepest thoughts and greatest fears. I trust him more than I have ever trusted another adult (including my parents, even) so if he were to cheat I would have to end the relationship immediately. I could not go from this to eyeballing his phone as he uses it, or wonder where he's been if he's late getting to me, or when he's tired and we don't have sex wondering if he's getting it somewhere else. Could not do it. He knows and understands that. It doesn't mean he won't cheat, of course, but we both know the consequences if either of us were to go elsewhere. So you're basically saying that with the depth you love your BF that you would end it immediately if you found out he was unfaithful? Do you think at all that somehow the depth of your feelings would let you look past it if push came to shove? I like your comments about removing him from places where there is temptation and needing to know you can trust him no matter where he is or who is near. Thanks SG
Author Summer Breeze Posted September 23, 2012 Author Posted September 23, 2012 This makes perfect sense and I never thought about it that way. It's the great thing about 'other sides'. At those moments you and I were both victims of infidelity but we chose different paths. Doesn't mean one is right or wrong and it doesn't mean one is easier or harder. Like I said, I've learned a lot from all sorts of people here. Thank you. 1
Silly_Girl Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 So you're basically saying that with the depth you love your BF that you would end it immediately if you found out he was unfaithful? Do you think at all that somehow the depth of your feelings would let you look past it if push came to shove? It's a great question, but no. As a hypothetical situation I could not look past it. I know how long it has taken me to undo some bad but unavoidable habits learned by living with a liar/cheater. I cannot and will not be that person again. It is as much about what it would do to my psyche and behaviour as it is to do with his actions. I would destroy the relationship only it would happen far more slowly and painfully that way. This relationship is fantastic, but to me it ceases to be as soon as there's infidelity, because it could not be fantastic from that point, as far as I am concerned. The whole make-up of the relationship changes and can't be reinstated. I have to acknowledge that my answer may be different in a few years, we hope to have children and I don't honestly know whether that would have a bearing. 1
Author Summer Breeze Posted September 23, 2012 Author Posted September 23, 2012 It's a great question, but no. As a hypothetical situation I could not look past it. I know how long it has taken me to undo some bad but unavoidable habits learned by living with a liar/cheater. I cannot and will not be that person again. It is as much about what it would do to my psyche and behaviour as it is to do with his actions. I would destroy the relationship only it would happen far more slowly and painfully that way. This relationship is fantastic, but to me it ceases to be as soon as there's infidelity, because it could not be fantastic from that point, as far as I am concerned. The whole make-up of the relationship changes and can't be reinstated. I have to acknowledge that my answer may be different in a few years, we hope to have children and I don't honestly know whether that would have a bearing.[/QUOTE] This is interesting. One of the things I remember my mother telling me when I left xH was that I couldn't care for my D alone. I worked too many hours, the business was new and not making enough money, my support (her) lived too far away. She was scared enough for the both of us and I don't think she ever understood how I could be so reckless. I never understood how anyone could sell themselves so short that they'd stay because of anything including kids. I blame my ignorance of knowing just how bad things could have been! I still don't think I could let fear of anything make me accept it. I don't mean fear as in being terrified but as in being unsure how things would work. Thanks SG. 1
Silly_Girl Posted September 23, 2012 Posted September 23, 2012 This is interesting. One of the things I remember my mother telling me when I left xH was that I couldn't care for my D alone. I worked too many hours, the business was new and not making enough money, my support (her) lived too far away. She was scared enough for the both of us and I don't think she ever understood how I could be so reckless. I never understood how anyone could sell themselves so short that they'd stay because of anything including kids. I blame my ignorance of knowing just how bad things could have been! I still don't think I could let fear of anything make me accept it. I don't mean fear as in being terrified but as in being unsure how things would work. Thanks SG. I've gone it alone before, started over with my son twice, so - like you - it's not a fear thing. I just don't know whether I would be more invested and more open to the idea of a full reconciliation process.
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