Who broke the vows first?

[AnotherRound]

In some other threads, this keeps coming up. I keep seeing threads about husbands saying that their wives changed completely after getting married. Yet it seems that the husbands stayed fairly consistent in who they were after marriage. So, when thinking about affairs, and why they happen - I think we all know why they happen.

 

But what is this phenomena? The idea that (and I'm going to use women cutting out as opposed to men here for simplicity) a woman can "pretend" to have a huge sex drive, then gets married, and reveals that she has NO sex drive at all? That one or two times a year is MORE than enough for her tastes. But, she waits until after she has everything else a marriage entails - the children, the house, the vacations, etc. And then she expects the man to keep doing his husband part - making money, taking out the trash, helping with the kids - but is convinced that she doesn't have to do anything more than be a mom and a housekeeper. ????

 

Wouldn't that be breaking the vows? When you get married, you promise to forsake all others, right? So, you are signing up to be that man's ONLY sexual partner, emotional partner FOREVER - til death do you part. So, how do women that check out justify this? How do they explain that they think the H should keep being a husband, but they don't have to keep being a wife? And they expect the H to keep HIS vow of forsaking all others - but they refuse to participate in the most intimate part of the relationship? Did they believe that the man would willingly sign up for no sex for the rest of his life? Or, did they KNOW he wouldn't, but they wanted to be married so badly, that they manipulated and tricked him so that they could get what they want, and then stopped holding up their end of the deal?

 

I'm a woman, and it frustrates ME just thinking about it! That after some women get what they want, they stop respecting their marriage certificate (the one they bleat about 24/7 when an affair happens, and how important those vows were) and then say - well, if he isn't happy now that I refuse to hold up my end of the marriage, he should just leave! Really? He should just let you have 50% of everything he has worked for bc you don't want to hold up your end of the marriage? He should give up seeing his kids daily bc you lied or changed your mind? He should give up his house, and half the lifestyle he has lived bc you have decided to take away one of the most important connections that he has in this world - the one you AGREED to that day in front of your family, friends, and god (isn't that what I hear all the time here?)

 

Thoughts on this? For those OW/OM or WS, did this happen to you or in your situation to your MM/MW? If so, do you see it as I'm seeing it? As manipulation and dishonesty? As an attempt to secure social status (marriage) by being dishonest about who you are and what you want/need? And am I the only woman that sees this?

 

I said in another thread, that this should be grounds for divorce for men. And if this is their grounds, they should get 100% of the assets and the kids full time. Because entering into a contract with someone under false pretenses should make it null and void - and the victim shouldn't have to forfeit everything they love and own bc someone else failed to meet their end of the agreement. Thoughts?

 

And yes, I need to stop reading on the marriage threads, it's so depressing. I swear, every day, there is a new thread about a woman doing this to a man. And the responses? His recourse? Work harder (some of these poor men are running themselves ragged for these entitled women), or divorce. WTF? No wonder men don't want to get married - sheesh.

[LadyGrey]

Good questions...........but one should keep in mind that when posters vent here about lack of sex, you are only getting ONE side of the story. Unless the other spouse posts and gives their side of it, it's biased at the least.

 

It's exactly the same thing when a mm gives his ow info about his marriage/his sex life. Information from a mm about his wife's sex drive or lack thereof, ought to be taken with a big grain of salt. It's to a mm benefit to downplay or yes even lie as many ow have found out the hard way.

 

Now to answer your question from my viewpoint. In my experience and in talking to a few women that I know well, when we discussed lack of sexual interest in their husband. It's because of resentment from being taken for granted, an unfair division of household chores, unfair division of child care, etc. And some men forget how to romance their wives. Most women need to feel connected and valued by their husbands in order to feel sexual. Some men are not good at conveying that.

I've heard a couple of women who said, their husbands were just very bad lovers and and no amount of guidance or gentle suggestions or eventually just being blunt about it, just weren't able to satisfy them because they were inept or just selfish and didn't care.

 

The women I know that have discussed this in depth with me.........well they didn't pull the old bait and switch, they just got pissed off and fed up. Resentment. It's a ugly thing that kills many a marriage.

 

Opps.......I left off the answer to your question.

 

In the instances that I explained above, the vow to love and cherish was broken first by the men.

Edited September 23, 2012 by LadyGrey

[AnotherRound]

Good questions...........but one should keep in mind that when posters vent here about lack of sex, you are only getting ONE side of the story. Unless the other spouse posts and gives their side of it, it's biased at the least.

 

It's exactly the same thing when a mm gives his ow info about his marriage/his sex life. Information from a mm about his wife's sex drive or lack thereof, ought to be taken with a big grain of salt. It's to a mm benefit to downplay or yes even lie as many ow have found out the hard way.

 

Now to answer your question from my viewpoint. In my experience and in talking to a few women that I know well, when we discussed lack of sexual interest in their husband. It's because of resentment from being taken for granted, an unfair division of household chores, unfair division of child care, etc. And some men forget how to romance their wives. Most women need to feel connected and valued by their husbands in order to feel sexual. Some men are not good at conveying that.

I've heard a couple of women who said, their husbands were just very bad lovers and and no amount of guidance or gentle suggestions or eventually just being blunt about it, just weren't able to satisfy them because they were inept or just selfish and didn't care.

 

The women I know that have discussed this in depth with me.........well they didn't pull the old bait and switch, they just got pissed off and fed up. Resentment. It's a ugly thing that kills many a marriage.

 

Opps.......I left off the answer to your question.

 

In the instances that I explained above, the vow to love and cherish was broken first by the men.

 

Agreed that that happens. But I was talking more specifically about women who DO pull the bait and switch. And honestly, most of the threads I read there are from guys saying just that. That they do some or most of the housework, the child care, etc. So, it doesn't sound like that's the issue. And yes, it is their perception, but to have SO many post about and hear about it so much IRL. I think the bait and switch happens often, and that ticks me off - no matter who is doing it. But good points, and yes, resentment will kill a relationship (and love!) quickly and thoroughly.

[LadyGrey]

Well since you are specifically talking about threads elsewhere in the forum, it's not a ow issue I suppose.

 

Maybe it will get moved to general.

[Sauron]

This should be an interesting thread. This is exactly how my marriage started out. Before marriage, everything goes the future looks bright, things are great, sex is good, get married sex slows way down, its only her way, the way she wants, there are many don't do's where there were none before, many stop doing that, many I am disgusting and probably need psychological help etc. She immediately stops taking BC and gets pregnant and it's been downhill ever since between us. I could go on about how she let herself go physically and has for the last 30 years. So when her hot GF moved in with us temporarily, well nature took its course.

 

And I agree with LadyGrey, you do only get one side of the story on any issue in this place. I am sure many MM lie about their sex life to their OW. At least the ones that just want to get laid. My OW asked about my sex life at home and I told her the truth, we have sex but it is less than satisfying. It seems to have gotten better since I have an outlet for good sex.

 

I feel that there is some dishonesty in the way my wife changed after we were married. And this is exactly what I mean when I say the BS has some culpability in creating the affair environment. I think if she would not have changed like she did, and if she would have went the other direction I might have stayed a loyal husband. I am very family oriented and the way things have turned out that is really the only big negative.

 

Early on in my marriage, especially after the kids started coming, I hoped things would get better. However, hope never solved a problem, and before you know it 5 years goes by, then 10 and so on. I channeled my frustrations into work and found what I needed. Not to mention that divorce laws are stacked against men, and children are used as weapons by women in divorce situations.

 

Great post AR.

[trinity1]

Neo's wife conveniently "lost" her door keys and "had to" crash at his place at one of their first dates. Oh, the next morning (after they had had sex) she found them - in her handbag! Neo still believes her - really? She was pushing thirty and needed a man to father her children.

 

It didn't take very long for her to give the ultimatum "I want children so we need to get married or else we're done". So although he already knew by this time that they were sexually pretty incompatible since her sex drive was way lower than his he agreed to get married, thinking that this is how it is.

 

Eventually, when all the kids were born, her sex drive disappeared completely.

 

Neo knows now he didn't heed the warning signs that they were sexually incompatible. So while she didn't satisfy his needs, he did walk into his marriage with his eyes wide open. I don't think he realized though how it would wear on him not to be sexually desired by his wife.

[Woggle]

There is never an excuse for cheating but I don't think a man should be obligated to live like a catholic priest once he has a ring on his finger.

[AnotherRound]

There is never an excuse for cheating but I don't think a man should be obligated to live like a catholic priest once he has a ring on his finger.

 

I think that's my issue. That there are people out there that do believe he should basically put up with it bc sex isn't that big of a deal, or not a reason to divorce, or whatever. And the fact that I think it is done to them sometimes underhandedly. And after they have children - so the man doesn't want to leave either, in that, he knows he will lose daily access to his children, his house, his savings, etc. It just seems so dirty to me that there are women that do this - that anyone would do this to someone else.

 

And I do know women who have purposely gotten pregnant in an effort to "trap" the man. And, women whose only concern was to get married - no matter WHAT it took. And it just disgusts me - that they would be willing to pretend and fake and lie to get someone to enter into a contract with them that they have absolutely no intention of honoring themselves. But yet, expect the other person to honor it regardless.

[AnotherRound]

Well since you are specifically talking about threads elsewhere in the forum, it's not a ow issue I suppose.

 

Maybe it will get moved to general.

 

I placed it here bc my question was in terms of affairs - in that, if someone is dishonest when entering the contract of marriage, and then does not hold up their end of that contract - is the WS really breaking any vows? Since the "BS" has already decided not to honor their own vows - wouldn't the contract be null and void PRIOR to the affair? And just bc the spouse that broke the vows first wants to hold the other person to their vows (despite defaulting themselves) - I think that's entitlement and delusion kicking in, bc it's obviously ludicrous to break your own vows but expect the other person to honor theirs to you.

[AnotherRound]

This should be an interesting thread. This is exactly how my marriage started out. Before marriage, everything goes the future looks bright, things are great, sex is good, get married sex slows way down, its only her way, the way she wants, there are many don't do's where there were none before, many stop doing that, many I am disgusting and probably need psychological help etc. She immediately stops taking BC and gets pregnant and it's been downhill ever since between us. I could go on about how she let herself go physically and has for the last 30 years. So when her hot GF moved in with us temporarily, well nature took its course.

 

And I agree with LadyGrey, you do only get one side of the story on any issue in this place. I am sure many MM lie about their sex life to their OW. At least the ones that just want to get laid. My OW asked about my sex life at home and I told her the truth, we have sex but it is less than satisfying. It seems to have gotten better since I have an outlet for good sex.

 

I feel that there is some dishonesty in the way my wife changed after we were married. And this is exactly what I mean when I say the BS has some culpability in creating the affair environment. I think if she would not have changed like she did, and if she would have went the other direction I might have stayed a loyal husband. I am very family oriented and the way things have turned out that is really the only big negative.

 

Early on in my marriage, especially after the kids started coming, I hoped things would get better. However, hope never solved a problem, and before you know it 5 years goes by, then 10 and so on. I channeled my frustrations into work and found what I needed. Not to mention that divorce laws are stacked against men, and children are used as weapons by women in divorce situations.

 

Great post AR.

 

Thanks Sauron. I hear it from you, and I have heard it from many IRL. And then, I go read in the marriage forum, and it's all over the place. It's happening far too often to be just isolated situations, from what it looks like to me. And I have just been thinking how unfair it is that men (in general) are expected to give up half of everything that they have worked for, and daily access to their children - bc the wife doesn't honor her own vows.

 

I will say it again - this should be legal grounds for divorce. And when it is used as grounds for divorce, the spouse that is still holding their vows should get 100% of the assets and the children full time if they so desire as the other spouse has broken a legal contract. To promise to be the other person's only sexual partner forever, then check out and have no desire at all, should null and void the contract. And I've often heard men that have As say this very thing - that they weren't "cheating" on anyone bc the wife was already cheating in regards to the vows they took, and the assumed roles in the relationship.

 

And, I do think that people need to be more careful and thoughtful about compatibility - sexual compatibility included. BUT, if someone is dishonest with you, and pretends to like sex (I've heard many stories of women being willing to provide oral sex, then get married and admit that they hate it and would rather not do it) and then comes clean that they really don't like it - well, that is misrepresentation. And honestly, I don't know many men that would agree to any contract that says that they would not have sex - definitely a dealbreaker. And if someone lies, and KNOWS that they have a dealbreaker issue but still enters into the contract - well, imo, they entered under false pretenses and should have NO rights at all when the contract is dissolved.

 

My exH did this to me - it wasn't sexual intimacy, but he misrepresented himself. Then, after we were married, he just stopped pretending, and I was left with a person that I would have NEVER married willingly. I got to thinking about this after discussing with you and another poster on another thread about High and Low Self Monitoring people. Those High Self Monitors are pretenders - they manipulate to get what they want, then stop pretending - but yet, seem to expect everyone else to honor their contracts even though they were lying about themselves. Ugh.

[woinlove]

I think a competent MC talking to both spouses could determine who broke the vows first, I think even an MC would not be very interested in that, he would be interested in what choices each individual made and why. That's what I am interested in too. Money, status, relatives, parenting could not make me stay in a M that made me unhappy in a way I felt we could not fix. Some people make that choice for reasons I don't understand - for example, I would never place money above living a fulfilling live.

 

One might say if a person breaks the vows openly and doesn't hide the changes they have made, they have given the other spouse the choice to stay in the new reality, work to change it back, or divorce. With cheating one is not letting the other spouse know the vows are being broken, and is hiding from them the information that would allow them to make an informed choice. To me that is a very large difference. If one goes to the spouse and says I noticed this woman at work I find attractive, and I am going to try to pursue things with her, and I am open to falling in love with her, and that is the way things are going to be, I may end up spending much of my time with her, having lots of sex with her, but I want to stay married to you to. That is someone changing the marital agreement in a way similar to what the OP suggests. The wife can then chose to divorce rather than go along with it. But that is not what happens when someone simply cheats and has a secret A. They deceived the spouse to get what they wanted - both marriage and an affair on the side.

 

I know that I am happiest being open and honest with those I share my life with and I know that choosing to be deceitful and deceptive would make me feel bad about myself. So that is not a choice I have or would make.

 

Why do people choose to stay in unhappy M that they feel will never fulfil them is one question. The other is why do people chose to lie and behave deceitfully? Of course, if they are inherently dishonest and don't care about honesty, the latter comes at no internal cost to them. But, I do think some people who chose to cheat do actually care about honesty and they are lowering their own standards and that comes with an internal cost. The question is why was staying married more important than paying that cost in loss of personal integrity.

Edited September 23, 2012 by woinlove

[AnotherRound]

I think a competent MC talking to both spouses could determine who broke the vows first, I think even an MC would not be very interested in that, he would be interested in what choices each individual made and why. That's what I am interested in too. Money, status, relatives, parenting could not make me stay in a M that made me unhappy in a way I felt we could not fix. Some people make that choice for reasons I don't understand - for example, I would never place money above living a fulfilling live.

 

One might say if a person breaks the vows openly and doesn't hide the changes they have made, they have given the other spouse the choice to stay in the new reality, work to change it back, or divorce. With cheating one is not letting the other spouse know the vows are being broken, and is hiding from them the information that would allow them to make an informed choice. To me that is a very large difference. If one goes to the spouse and says I noticed this woman at work I find attractive, and I am going to try to pursue things with her, and I am open to falling in love with her, and that is the way things are going to be, I may end up spending much of my time with her, having lots of sex with her, but I want to stay married to you to. That is someone changing the marital agreement in a way similar to what the OP suggests. The wife can then chose to divorce rather than go along with it. But that is not what happens when someone simply cheats and has a secret A. They deceived the spouse to get what they wanted - both marriage and an affair on the side.

 

I know that I am happiest being open and honest with those I share my life with and I know that choosing to be deceitful and deceptive would make me feel bad about myself. So that is not a choice I have or would make.

 

Why do people choose to stay in unhappy M that they feel will never fulfil them is one question. The other is why do people chose to lie and behave deceitfully? Of course, if they are inherently dishonest and don't care about honesty, the latter comes at no internal cost to them. But, I do think some people who chose to cheat do actually care about honesty and they are lowering their own standards and that comes with an internal cost. The question is why was staying married more important than paying that cost in loss of personal integrity.

 

Good points. I guess I'm more specifically talking about situations where one spouse has defaulted on their end of the marriage, and then the other spouse is open with them (ie trying to discuss the issue, trying to fix it, etc.) and getting nowhere - and then the spouse who broke the vows first is expecting the other spouse to just stay in the marriage. And, I'm not talking about spouses that lie and cheat (although, in these situations, I absolutely understand WHY they do), but more about spouses that have expressed their discontent, gotten nowhere bc the other has pulled a bait and switch, and then express to the other spouse that they don't want to split everything (including time with the kids) but they will not live celibately or without emotional connection - and then have a relationship with someone else while still married.

 

I know, it's a complicated thing with a lot of variables. Just something that I keep hearing and reading about, and it struck me as happening much more than a few isolated cases. And just seems so shady and dodgy on the part of the bait and switch spouse - that it amazes me when that spouse thinks the other OWES them something after what they pulled.

[woinlove]

Good points. I guess I'm more specifically talking about situations where one spouse has defaulted on their end of the marriage, and then the other spouse is open with them (ie trying to discuss the issue, trying to fix it, etc.) and getting nowhere - and then the spouse who broke the vows first is expecting the other spouse to just stay in the marriage. And, I'm not talking about spouses that lie and cheat (although, in these situations, I absolutely understand WHY they do), but more about spouses that have expressed their discontent, gotten nowhere bc the other has pulled a bait and switch, and then express to the other spouse that they don't want to split everything (including time with the kids) but they will not live celibately or without emotional connection - and then have a relationship with someone else while still married.

 

I know, it's a complicated thing with a lot of variables. Just something that I keep hearing and reading about, and it struck me as happening much more than a few isolated cases. And just seems so shady and dodgy on the part of the bait and switch spouse - that it amazes me when that spouse thinks the other OWES them something after what they pulled.

 

I agree, although I wonder if it is brought up more than it happens. Maybe not, just that many WS seem to go through a lot of rationalization and seeing things through a distorted lens in an attempt to justify their choices. So I tend to take a WS's description of the M as just their own view, while they are living a deceitful life, and not necessarily reality.

 

However, when bait and switch does happen, I think it is really bad. I have never felt I had to stay married, even with young children, so I am somewhat limited in understanding people who feel they have to stay married no matter what. But for someone who does feel they have to stay married, maybe they feel the laws will leave them destitute or without access to their children (neither of which are plausible in the US) and they got a bait and switch, that is clearly a bad situation which is likely to lead to them being miserable no matter what, until they get over the barrier of thinking they have to stay married no matter what. Some may simply be looking for a "replacement" before they leave, and in that case, I think they have their own issues to work on. If one can't be wonderfully happy and single, there are some issues to work on, because that almost certainly means that one can't be wonderfully happy and married over the long term either.

[LadyGrey]

You brought up something very interesting woinlove. Maybe the focus should be on the person who chooses to stay in that kind of situation. Maybe one should question if there something dysfunctional about them staying in such an unsatisfying place. Are they too afraid to leave, or they too afraid to demand a change or threaten a consequence and stick to it?

 

Ummm, so maybe the person who stays 10, 20 years or more that has had the old bait and switch pulled on them is really the problem.

 

 

 

 

I agree, although I wonder if it is brought up more than it happens. Maybe not, just that many WS seem to go through a lot of rationalization and seeing things through a distorted lens in an attempt to justify their choices. So I tend to take a WS's description of the M as just their own view, while they are living a deceitful life, and not necessarily reality.

 

However, when bait and switch does happen, I think it is really bad. I have never felt I had to stay married, even with young children, so I am somewhat limited in understanding people who feel they have to stay married no matter what. But for someone who does feel they have to stay married, maybe they feel the laws will leave them destitute or without access to their children (neither of which are plausible in the US) and they got a bait and switch, that is clearly a bad situation which is likely to lead to them being miserable no matter what, until they get over the barrier of thinking they have to stay married no matter what. Some may simply be looking for a "replacement" before they leave, and in that case, I think they have their own issues to work on. If one can't be wonderfully happy and single, there are some issues to work on, because that almost certainly means that one can't be wonderfully happy and married over the long term either.

[trinity1]

You brought up something very interesting woinlove. Maybe the focus should be on the person who chooses to stay in that kind of situation. Maybe one should question if there something dysfunctional about them staying in such an unsatisfying place. Are they too afraid to leave, or they too afraid to demand a change or threaten a consequence and stick to it?

 

Ummm, so maybe the person who stays 10, 20 years or more that has had the old bait and switch pulled on them is really the problem.

 

Sounds like the good old Split Self to me! The dysfunctional drive to do the right thing rather than care for your own emotional needs.

[AnotherRound]

You brought up something very interesting woinlove. Maybe the focus should be on the person who chooses to stay in that kind of situation. Maybe one should question if there something dysfunctional about them staying in such an unsatisfying place. Are they too afraid to leave, or they too afraid to demand a change or threaten a consequence and stick to it?

 

Ummm, so maybe the person who stays 10, 20 years or more that has had the old bait and switch pulled on them is really the problem.

 

Could be! I know that there are some that stay no matter what, for whatever reason. Their beliefs about marriage, their family's beliefs about marriage, society's belief about marriage. And some truly do feel that they will be destitute, or that they won't see their children - and those things DO happen, more often than I'm comfortable with. I can personally name several situations where a man was taken to the cleaners AND lost access to his kids (less than 50% when 50% is already "settling") and not bc of anything he did. In that, the wife filed for divorce, there was no affair, nothing except she was unhappy and wanted to move on. And that is SO unfair, imo.

 

I think it's true that people need to address WHY they think they should stay. But honestly, until the divorce laws are more fair (and I think they are working towards that in the US, with most states doing 50/50 no fault) I think there will be a LOT of people who stay for various reasons, and loving their spouse is not one of them.

[AnotherRound]

Perception is interesting and can often be very far off base.

 

My husband told his main OW that I had pulled the bait and switch. He told her that I wasn't loving or attentive and that sex was non-existant. He explained that I was sitting at home all day doing nothing and he had to come home and run kids to practices and clean the house (doing the dinner dishes). In turn, she said I wasn't contributing to my marriage and that it was grounds for divorce.

 

Here's the truth: What neither of them saw, was that during the day I was busy doing things that he would never notice needed to be done...because they were done. I am far from lazy. In the daytime while he was taking hours from work to go have sex with her, I was scrubbing the siding of the house, washing windows and walls, scrubbing floors on my hands and knees, sanding and staining the deck, etc. All in addition to doing the regular household chores. Then he would come home at night and the kids had to run in two different directions so I would take one and ask him to take the other. This was after a hearty dinner from the crock pot or oven.

 

And sex? I asked for it frequently and begin to feel rejected and finally stopped approaching him. It hurt so why would I keep putting myself through that?

 

No, I didn't break the vows no matter what he said. HE did in more ways than one.

 

Regarding what you're reading here, just remember that there may be a completely different side.

 

Oh, I realize that perception is some of it. I also know of situations where the man is a GOOD man, a good husband, and a good father - and the wife is just not interested in the relationship of the marriage.

 

It sounds to me that you had a H who was not involved in the marriage in his own way. And maybe he does feel like you pulled a bait and switch - but that can mean different things.

 

To me, if a woman enters a relationship, and then takes on so much that she is no longer able to pull her weight in the relationship department (not just sex, but emotional intimacy too, as some women use their children for this and completely cut the H out), then she is breaking her vows, imo.

 

Not saying that you did, I have no idea, and have no reason to doubt what you say here. But I think that marriage is a big undertaking, especially for women. So, for me, I let men know up front - I am not going to be constantly cleaning up after them, cooking for them, etc. I don't consider it MY job just bc I have breasts and a vagina to do the "girl" things. Especially if keeping up with all of the "girl" things makes it an arrangement in which that is ALL I can do, and not actively participate in the relationship.

 

Also, I think that some people place far too much importance on external things that, in the end, are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. If all of someone's time is spent cleaning - that too me is imbalanced. Not that I don't appreciate a clean house, BUT, if I have a choice of having energy to clean, or having energy to have sex and emotionally connect with my SO, I will choose the sex every time. The cleaning can wait - and is FAR less important in life than my relationships. But that's just me...

 

I appreciate your insight, and you make good points. I guess my response would be, yes, perception might be off. BUT, does it really matter in the end that it wasn't 100% accurate? Because it was obviously still a problem. And I still think marriage expects FAR too much from women, and many crumble under the pressure and something's got to give - and usually what gives is the actual relationship. Which imo is what the entire marriage should be based on in the first place.

[AnotherRound]

I completely disagree...first of all, i hate when OW say "what HE has worked for" because whether she's in the work force or not, the woman is contributing, too. It's hers, too.

 

If you think men should get kids and 100% of the assets, then I would think you agree that in an affair where the woman is the victim that she should also receive everything?

 

I say that he worked for bc often, he has to split things that should, fairly, be his and his alone. I would say the same thing if it was reversed. I'm only using the man as the WS and the woman as the BS for simplification, it can obviously work both ways.

 

And yes, if the BS has not pulled out of the marriage emotionally and physically, and the WS is dishonest and hasn't attempted to confront the situation and just steps out - then the victim should get 100%. Whoever breaks the contract forfeits all rights, imo. I think the issue is that some see the A as ALWAYS breaking the contract, but not the other stuff that isn't as clear cut - like pulling out emotionally and/or physically.

[LadyGrey]

AR.........I noticed a theme with you, you are definitely not pro woman. You seem to identify and side with men on all issues. You seem biased toward men and against women.

 

Your posts in this thread all center on the men having a bait and switch done on them, little if anything is mentioned by you on this happening to women.

 

The bait and switch is done to women just as much as it's done to men. There are plenty of posts in which women complain about being rejected for sex, just as there will be several posts in which women will tell you that their husband told the ow they weren't having sex often or not at all, but it wasn't true.

 

Bait and switch isn't just about sex, it can be any and many issues and it's not just done to men.

[waterwoman]

Most married women aren't quite as calculating or self-satisfied as this thread suggests. In fact I am a bit shocked that some women on LS sometimes seem to despise other women for making different choices or making mistakes. It's really sad. No-one is perfect. (I apply that to OW as well)

 

So, you meet someone, at some point you choose to get married. All is rosy - sex is exciting and plentiful, the sex-love feedback is working, all runs smoothly. Then something external happens - one partner loses their job and money gets tight.Stress and resentment enters the situation, sex becomes less frequent and/or less satisfying. Love becomes more less effortless, arguments happen. Money situation improves - hurrah! Stress eases. But the resentment remains, eating away at the roots of the relationship. On the surface all seems OK. Baby is born - less time, energy, money. Sex fades a little but of course it's only 'temporary' isn't it? Baby starts sleeping through. Stress eases. Another baby born, cycle starts again. Perhaps mum suffers from post-natal depression - not her fault and H may well be supportive and sympathetic at first. But it's hard to live with a woman with PND. By this time sex may well have taken a backseat and while H accepts the reasons for this he still secretly resents it. Elderly parents starts to need more care - stress, tiredness, worry. Etc etc ad infinitum.

 

At the end of all this you have a marriage where there may be still a core of strong love but it's hard to find it. Around the core is wrapped hundreds of layers of bad memories as well as the good ones. No-one did *anything* wrong. No-one. Neither partner were deceitful or cruel. They were two people carried away by life.

 

You may not be surprised to know that the above examples are from my marriage. But I don't think they are at all unusual. Add to that a child on the autistic spectrum, H's very emotionally stressful job and a FIL who died of cancer and you'd have the whole kit and caboodle. We reached a nadir in our relationship over the last few years and at the worst of it we would seem to look at each other over the chaos that stretched between and shake our heads at how this could have happened. And we'd try really hard to be close and intimate and make time for each other - but life swept between us again. Neither of us caused this, but neither of us made any specific effort to fix it either - hell, just getting out of bed and dealing with the basics was enough!

 

When OW hove into view, telling him she loved him and he 'was the man for her' it was oh so easy for him to accept what she offered. She was balm to his wounded pride, his neglected heart. Do I blame him? No, I guess not, I can easily see how it happened but I still think he was a **** for doing so. Do I blame her, no, not now I am calmer, she saw what she wanted and took it. Do I blame myself? No. Please tell me how I deserved that betrayal?

 

Marriage is for the long haul. It frequently isn't pretty and rose-coloured. We made many vows among which were.

 

1. 'With my body I thee worship'

2. 'keep thee only unto him/her'

 

but also and in my mind almost the important of all and the true purpose of marriage

 

3.'for better or worse'

ie you don't **** someone else or cut and run when things get hard. Otherwise why the hell bother to get married?

 

I don't think I broke my vows before he did.

[LadyGrey]

I don't understand this...what could be his and his alone? For instance, my husband and I decided together that I would be a stay at home mom...in fact, it's his preference because we don't have to pay outrageous sums for day care and our children are getting all of their needs met.

 

So saying that, he has his job that he goes to every day and I have my job. I just happen to work at home and help make his life easier. How, then, could anything be his and his alone?

 

I agree with this........some women want to believe the myth that women who work at home aren't productive or an equal partner of the marriage. If it's agreed by both parties that is what their life will be.......then her work is just as valuable as his. Some women still want to think that women who doesn't work an outside job, sits on their arse and watches soap opera's and eat's bon bon's all day.

 

When my girls were small, I had to take a leave from work because my youngest, my baby was very ill. Staying at home was a lot harder for me than working outside the home.

[AnotherRound]

AR.........I noticed a theme with you, you are definitely not pro woman. You seem to identify and side with men on all issues. You seem biased toward men and against women.

 

Your posts in this thread all center on the men having a bait and switch done on them, little if anything is mentioned by you on this happening to women.

 

The bait and switch is done to women just as much as it's done to men. There are plenty of posts in which women complain about being rejected for sex, just as there will be several posts in which women will tell you that their husband told the ow they weren't having sex often or not at all, but it wasn't true.

 

Bait and switch isn't just about sex, it can be any and many issues and it's not just done to men.

 

Lol at your statement that I am not pro-woman. I think my way of seeing it is MUCH more pro-woman than the marriage is the end all way of looking at it. Where, a woman is expected to shoulder so much and the men not. In that, I have never bought into that bc I think it's totally unfair to women, and always has been. Marriage was set up by men for men, bc it was advantageous to them. It still is, and why women's happiness decreases in marriage while men's often increases. I mean, what better set up than to have someone doing all the nitty gritty for you while you just work and live your life? I hate the whole set up, and my exH expected that, and I did not "fall into line" bc I don't believe in it. He was just as capable of me as doing the dishes, and I told him as much, lol.

 

I'm only using it here bc it seems that women want marriage more than men do, so they do the bait and switch more often. I'm not saying it doesn't happen the other way, and that is perhaps a new thread if you feel like exploring it further. I was trying to simplify it a little, and focus it down to a more specific situation, as it seemed far too broad the other way.

 

I am pro-human, regardless of sex. I believe that fairness works both ways. And, if the situation were reversed, and a woman found herself in a marriage where the man did not actively participate, I would take her side in that he broke the vows first. But, this thread stemmed from some other discussions regarding how often it seems that some women do anything that they have to in order to seal the deal and get married - and then they just stop. They over-focus on other things (house cleaning, meals, etc) and forget the whole reason they were married in the first place - the intimate relationship. That's the specific thing I was talking about here.

 

Trust me, there aren't many women in this world that are more feminist than me. But, I believe it works both ways. If women want to be treated "equally", then they better chin up and start carrying their weight - and asserting themselves - and stop being the housekeepers and sole children raisers and expecting men to be satisfied with that. To me, any significant relationship is 50/50. If a woman is doing 75% of the house stuff, and therefore can't provide the relationship part - that is on her, bc nobody is forcing her to, she is choosing to. I choose not to, bc I want time and energy to be IN the relationship. I also have chosen not to have children, and this is partially why. I don't want to have to focus so much on children that the relationship suffers a death giving blow (as I see happen often). I think sometimes, people just can't balance it all. And as much as I understand this, they chose it, and then they get upset that the spouse isn't "more understanding" - instead of asserting themselves initially for a 50/50 relationship.

[LadyGrey]

Pardon my notorious grammar mistakes there, please. Too late to edit.

 

 

I agree with this........some women want to believe the myth that women who work at home aren't productive or an equal partner of the marriage. If it's agreed by both parties that is what their life will be.......then her work is just as valuable as his. Some women still want to think that women who doesn't work an outside job, sits on their arse and watches soap opera's and eat's bon bon's all day.

 

When my girls were small, I had to take a leave from work because my youngest, my baby was very ill. Staying at home was a lot harder for me than working outside the home.

[ComingInHot]

Another Round:

I hope it's okay w/you that I comment... ( being the "BS" and all) but you have been SO great to me "on the other side"** your thread here and wantingmore's thread are the only OW threads I am intruding on, promise.

 

Please understand, this is ONLY in response to my personal situation, okay?

 

My husband & I came together w/nothing. It was awesome because everything we have has been worked for together. We supported each other and made agreements w/each other so that we could create a family, provide for them, take care of them w/out using daycare. For a few years that meant me staying home, being there for the kids, stepping up and performing ALL household responsibilities ( unless I didn't know how ie; fixing the lawn mower etc...) I made him lunch everyday and not enough sex was NEVER an issue no matter how tired I was. ( my Dad once told me that "if a man isn't being provided for at home, then he'll get it elsewhere" Don't know why but it stuck)

 

We then began our now growing & successful Company together and I added full time mom & business woman to my plate. The sex did NOT wane but the intimacy did somewhat on my part because I felt I was not getting ANY. help on his part at home and for me to maintain my health & fitness so as NOT to "let myself go" so to speak.

 

I had gone from a size four to a six. It wasn't so much the size but the "firmness" that was an issue, ya know? *

 

Then I guess he hooked up w/this OW. again I didn't know about it til it was over for ten months. But our sex life NEVER waned during this time.

 

I just wanted to tell you this because my story is not a generality as stated in the beginning thread. But I feel that my FWH was lacking the other types of attention he needed (constant attention) and found it for a time w/this OW who had none of the responsibilities that I did. It ended up being, she gave him more than he even wanted. But that is his (was) his choice.

 

Since the "out" of his A, I have actually gained more of a voice, we have split some of the household stuff, we both excersize & are healthy and the sex (as always) still all the time but the intimacy is back .

I just wanted to give you some hope like you have given me, that not all situations are the same. And thanks to you, I am REALLY getting my self confidence back!

I'll go back to the creepy BS side now**

[AnotherRound]

I agree with this........some women want to believe the myth that women who work at home aren't productive or an equal partner of the marriage. If it's agreed by both parties that is what their life will be.......then her work is just as valuable as his. Some women still want to think that women who doesn't work an outside job, sits on their arse and watches soap opera's and eat's bon bon's all day.

 

When my girls were small, I had to take a leave from work because my youngest, my baby was very ill. Staying at home was a lot harder for me than working outside the home.

 

In your situations, there are obviously not things that are 100% his. In other situations, there are, and the woman feels entitled to it, despite not contributing to it. If a man is out working his arse off, he has earned that, not the woman at home. Sorry, this is just how I feel about it. I'm not saying that being a SAHM isn't important, it obviously is. But you have your reward, healthy and happy children. You don't get paid for that, it's not a "job" in that sense. You shouldn't expect to get paid for it, especially if you willingly decided to bring children into this world. It's a thankless job, everyone knows that - hence the reason some of us have not had children. It's a lot of hard work, and it has tremendous payback, but money isn't one of the paybacks.

 

And, there are situations where a woman will do the bait and switch, then get all huffy about the H wanting out and TRY purposely to take more than her "fair" share of the assets, bc she feels entitled. As if the H owes it to her bc she wanted to be a SAHM, or whatever. That's crazy to me. But then again, I've always had a job and a career, and would not stop wanting that even if I had children, bc it's important to me to earn money. Not for the money per se, but for the independence it allows me, and the contribution it allows me to make to any relationship that I go into. Yes, child rearing and housekeeping are contributions - but they aren't money earning contributions. That's just a fact. A man physically working hard to provide for a family does not owe the wife anything in that regard if she baited and switched. And alimony? Don't even get me started on that... child support is one thing, but expecting an ex to financially support you after the relationship is over? Greedy - and unjust.