Being the OW

[ThatJustHappened]

To all OWs, BSs, or independent bystanders - as we debate it out, most men are not thinking one bit about us women unless they are hungry, want sex, think we might leave, or think our life is in danger, and I'm also talking about men who don't even cheat. As we debate, they are relaxing somewhere without a worry in the world, watching sports or something. I say we all go do something really nice for ourselves within the next 48 hours. If it's a day at the spa you like, indulge. If it's a bottle of quality wine, sip. If it's a girls night out, party. Whatever it is, let's forget about the drama men stir up and then point at us accusing us of being drama queens! Let's celebrate who we are, amazing and intelligent women. We don't need a man, we chose a man!

 

Sorry for the interruption. I just had to say that.

 

Yay! Pop the pink champagne!

[canuckprincess]

To all OWs, BSs, or independent bystanders - as we debate it out, most men are not thinking one bit about us women unless they are hungry, want sex, think we might leave, or think our life is in danger, and I'm also talking about men who don't even cheat. As we debate, they are relaxing somewhere without a worry in the world, watching sports or something. I say we all go do something really nice for ourselves within the next 48 hours. If it's a day at the spa you like, indulge. If it's a bottle of quality wine, sip. If it's a girls night out, party. Whatever it is, let's forget about the drama men stir up and then point at us accusing us of being drama queens! Let's celebrate who we are, amazing and intelligent women. We don't need a man, we chose a man!

 

Sorry for the interruption. I just had to say that.

 

 

 

Very well said, excellent idea.

[MissBee]

Yes I was a wife, I have been happily divorced for 5 glorious years. No I'm not judging you, I do feel bad for the pain I cause my mm's bs, but the harsh reality is two woman are hurting because two woman are in love with the same man. I certainly didn't mean to fall in love with a mm as I'm sure he didn't mean to far in love with a mw but he did.

 

Hey Canuck,

 

I just wanted to as you a bit more. I'm being totally open and honest and curious about it as well. I've been the OW before. While I too did not "plan on it", I do realize that one, esp one who is married does not simply fall inlove with another person, overnight and innocently.

 

I'm trying to understand if you truly don't see how this isn't possible. My exAP for example said he didn't expect to fall inlove with me. Fair enough. I didn't expect it either. But we CANNOT forget that a series of things HAD to occure BEFORE and LEADING up to that point. Don't you agree? What he did wrong wasn't the moment of "falling in love"...it was EVERYTHING that lead up to that. Do you see this difference? As in, if you are married or committed, why are you intimately communicating with another person and forming emotional bonds and feeding attraction? That's what went wrong. The CONSCIOUS choices that eventually turned into feelings of being inlove.

 

I hope I'm conveying to you why it seems a bit....understated, for lack of a better word, when people say "we didn't mean to" as it almost ignores reality and how these things work and makes them seem like you woke up, went to get your mail and fell inlove. If that were the case, you'd be an innocent party. If you went to get your mail, the mail man is at your gate, you flirt with him and you do this EVERYDAY the mail comes...do you see how that is a process that is spawned by choices. As a MW for example, I'm not going to flirt with my mail man daily. If you don't do this, I'll be you a million bucks, just the act of saying hi or getting mail won't cause you to just fall in love. You have to do something and keep doing it...that's where MP go wrong and that is why the "I didn't mean to fall inlove" is irrelevant...as the inlove part is not the problem, it is all the boundary crossing that paved the way for it.

[Ladydrib]

Very well said, excellent idea.

 

Why thank you Ms. Princess.

[scatterd]

I am getting off line now but I wanted to say good night to all the wonderful woman here. I am learning so much from everyone. Thanks for coversation and laughter. Big Hugs

[canuckprincess]

I am getting off line now but I wanted to say good night to all the wonderful woman here. I am learning so much from everyone. Thanks for coversation and laughter. Big Hugs

 

Have a great night, thanks for your input.

[mercy]

Did you have a problem with some particular post? Which post or posts make you feel judged? You seem to be upset about the joke about best friends, sisters, daughters and mothers in Europe.

 

It wasn't a joke! I'm not moving to Europe!

[stillwater]

Boundaries in Chaotic Families

Enmeshment is a state of confusion in which you do not know where you end and another begins. Physical boundaries are violated - the kids sleep with the parents, family members go to the bathroom while you are taking a bath, your brother or sister uses your things and wears your clothes (without permission)

 

The driving motivation in chaotic families is learning to please. Love is based on neediness and emotional hunger. Children are "spoiled" or taught to be their parents' caretakers or both. There is a lot of failure in chaotic families. People try hard but they never quite make it. Trying is a kind of magical behavior. In chaotic families, children learn that if you try hard, you don't have to actually get it done.

 

Children from chaotic families are often set up to take care of the needs of their families, take care of their parents' marriage, and/or take care of one of their parents. Since the parents are often immature and childlike, they expect their children to make them happy. The children learn that they are most lovable when they are caring for their parents - or making another person feel good.

 

Holy crap this sounds exactly like xMW's family... as in 100%, it's uncanny.

 

The chaotic family thing is making so much sense...

 

There is a need for love and being loved at all cost. Parents are usually needy and raise children needy for love and being loved. It makes sense to me then why one would value getting love over and against anything else...as there is an emotional hunger there. So the idea of boundaries or not dating MM or not dating your friend's spouse or what have you become irrelevant in one's pursuit for that love. One raises love to a magical level where all becomes fair in its pursuit.

 

I would say they're not just likely to be the OP, but also the WS. Someone who needs to be loved is a great candidate to cheat- what would be better for such a person than getting two (or more) people to fawn all over you?

[AnotherRound]

Hi Bailey...

 

I'm coming into this thread late, but wanted to respond. I find it interesting that you used the word "justify". I have never felt the need to "justify" my former A, as in, it was pretty self explanatory to anyone who cared to try to understand it. I know that some people think that providing an explanation is justification, bc they are absolutely positive that an A is always wrong, but I'm not one of those people. As in anything in my life, if I'm actively doing it, I take responsibility for it (negative or positive) and don't spend time trying to explain it to those who will never understand it bc they have such rigid rules about life that it's unfathomable to them.

 

I think that these boards sometimes tend to cause some people to feel the need to justify - not just explain. And that some folks are confused about what justification and explanation means. In my A, the stbxw knew about the A from the get go, and was involved in it in that she simply chose to live the status quo and not rock the boat, bc the situation worked for her too. So, what would there be to justify in that scenario? Love? A relationship?

 

Anyway, interesting thread, and I enjoyed your posts here and elsewhere. I agree that there are many that are lurking and not jumping in bc they are intimidated by the back lash that can come from some folks here. I just place them on ignore - I don't listen to the rantings of the crazy guy on the corner, why should I listen to it here? lol

[cocorico]

On another thread we started to talk about how an OW justifies her relationship with a MM. How do you justify it?

 

I was taught as a kid that "justify" meant "to make right". I never felt the need to justify my R as,I never felt it was not right, from the outset.

[AnotherRound]

I was taught as a kid that "justify" meant "to make right". I never felt the need to justify my R as,I never felt it was not right, from the outset.

 

To me, justify insinuates trying to make others think the way that I think. I could care less what others think about the way I live my life, bc I know what type of person I am, and I don't need external validation of that. So, when some folks here accuse me of trying to justify it, it always makes me smile a little, bc they obviously don't know me at all, lol.

 

I have never claimed that I would have done the same thing that exMM did - have an affair. I would have ended the marriage. But, that wasn't my role in it, and so, there is no need for me to "justify" my participation in it, as I did nothing wrong. Did he? Perhaps - but when all the factors are considered, I would say it wasn't wrong as he was honest with his stbxw about how he was going to handle her refusal to communicate.

 

I just ranted in another thread about this. Women who change the rules mid game on their husband, and then have this entitlement that a man should just stay with them forever. No matter that they stopped being a wife LONG ago - and whatever their "justification" of their behavior is - being a mother, working, etc.- is just that. Not that I don't understand it, but if they thought a marriage was supposed to be sexless, then I have very little sympathy for them when their husband tells them he refuses to live that way - but also refuses to split everything he owns with them bc they changed the rules. The situation irks me - and the entitlement irks me - and then the crying afterwards irks me - and the fact that so many seem to think it's okay for the wife to do this to her husband irks me.

 

Again, I know that some As are deceitful, and that, I would have a problem with. But when your husband tries to work it out with you (read the marriage boards, it's EVERYWHERE over there!), and you refuse to even try to fix it, and then your H tells you he is going elsewhere... well, that is your own problem if you ask me. Don't change the rules, trick someone, and then get mad bc they call your hand. The universe does not revolve around you, ffs.

 

Man, I'm in a ranting mood tonight! lol

[Bailey14]

AnotherRound, love your post! I realized after reading your post that I used the wrong word in my original post. I think I meant to use the word "reconcile" rather than "justify." I pick up stray dogs by the side of the road, give lots of money to charity, and do all kinds of good deeds for people who need a leg up. I would never think about hurting another human being but, every time I text him, talk to him on the phone, or spend time with him, I am hurting another human being. That reality is difficult to reconcile.....it is in direct conflict with who I am.

[Sauron]

I agree wholeheartedly...

I don't think many would think that it's a great and wonderful thing for two people to stay in a marriage where there is no love...if that is the case, then divorce, don't cheat.

 

Except divorce is not always a practical situation. Are you divorced sprouts?

[Sauron]

The only reason it matters to me whether he stays married or not is because it has an impact on me. His wife is none of my concern. She's his problem.

 

I agree 100% that the wife is the MM's responsbility. My OW has nothing whatsoever to do with my W. If it all goes to hell, it's on me with my wife. I am not sure why so many of you see it the other way. A realtionship is with 2 people.

[Sauron]

You are under your control and by definition, a freer agent than he is.

His wife is your problem, certainly, because she exists for one thing.

And if she finds out - who do you honestly think he will choose?

 

I have a feeling you already know.

And then, she will certainly not only be a problem.

She will be the solution.

 

So what. You sign up for being my lover and mistress, that is a potential outcome if things get surfaced.

[trinity1]

Disclaimer.....I thought I was dating a smm when it began. Then he went back to his wife and I became the knowing ow for more than a year. Many years later I found out, hardly anything that came out of his mouth back then was true, including that he was separated.

 

Anyway.......I justified it because of the crap he spoon fed me, (but yes that still doesn't make my justifications right, it was very wrong of me). Below is my list and it's ugly.

 

This short marriage was just a bump in the road, it was only 6 months. He didn't really love her, like a husband should love a wife. He realized he had made a mistake, he had used bad judgement and had married her when he was in a bad place in his life. He had settled with her but she wasn't really what he wanted but his confidence was low at the time. Like me, he didn't know that he could love that passionately again until we found each other.

If had had just fell in love with me before he married her, he would have never married her.

 

Then when he said he had to go back. (didn't know then he had never really left) I justified it by (believing more of his bs, ha ha). It wasn't so bad that I was going to be the ow because it wouldn't be long at all till he left again, he promised he wouldn't stay afterall. We weren't having sex,= a little less guilt. The only reason he went back is he told her he would if she fixed *(#$% and she had, so the good honorable man, ha ha, that he was, had to honor that agreement and when he told her he'd come back for that reason, he hadn't loved me yet.

 

I told myself........I wasn't really an ow, this was special circumstances, (because I believed all the head ****ery he did on me) but yep........still inside, I knew I was doing something wrong. When those pangs of guilt came, again I'd tell myself........but this is different. It's not the usual case of the ow and mm. Well ........it really wasn't at all, because of his lies.........but yet it was.

 

 

Interesting, none of these kind of things factored in for me at all. But then again, being the OW is not against my moral system as it is yours. Maybe because of that you had a real need to justify to yourself what you were doing?

[Sauron]

No.

 

This isn't about me.

I'm not an OW. I've never been the BS and I've never been with a MM. Other than those I've been married to.

 

What's up?

I get the impression that you are squirming under scrutiny.

You know full well that there's absolutely nothing you can say in my mind to justify your position as the OW.

 

So why suddenly go all coy and not answer the question?

Or does it just serve to make your situation seem all the more inarguable?

 

This poster thinks she has the moral high ground on every issue she posts on. And lo and behold she has never been in an OW/OM realtionship, so how could she ever understand the complexities, the emotional connections, or anything to do with people involved in these types of realtionships. Tara you really aren't qualified to make many judgements as you have never particpated and have zero expierence. As this OP stated she loves her MM and I would bet huge that he loves her as well, and he also loves his wife, which Bailey understands. You also called another poster a cheat enabler, but apparently you have never cheated or been a BS either. The empty can rattles the most.

[Bailey14]

LadyGrey, I completely understand your point. What you may not know about me is that I was a BS many, many years ago. I know the depth of despair I felt upon learning of his infidelity.

[trinity1]

I really get what you are saying because I felt much the same way. You wouldn't harm anyone directly and if you had to look at her face, you couldn't do it.

 

You aren't going to like what I'm going to say next and I'm not saying it to hurt you, but I do want you think about it. When I looked in the eyes of the woman that I had hurt by my involvement with him, I saw her pain and I felt it, and I already knew I had did a terrible thing, but seeing it in her eyes......well it forever changed me. I can never do that to another woman again, I can never be a part of anything like that. One night she phoned me, (after we met), she was hurting and yes as strange as it is, she called me. I listened as this woman sobbed and howled in pain. It was terrible, it was gut wrenching, it was terrible to know that I had a hand in hurting someone that bad. Most ow, never hear that, never see that, they don't want to, because if you do, then you are forced to acknowledge what you've helped do to someone. It's not a good thing, Bailey.........it's really not. I will be forever haunted by it.

 

Then there are those of us how have been BSs ourselves, so we know what it's like by personal experience. I didn't blame the OWs then either. I put the blame where it belonged, with my common law spouse.

[trinity1]

I agree 100% that the wife is the MM's responsbility. My OW has nothing whatsoever to do with my W. If it all goes to hell, it's on me with my wife. I am not sure why so many of you see it the other way. A realtionship is with 2 people.

 

I think it's about preventing EMRs any way you can. It's also about being self centered - me, me, me, I'm hurting.

[Sauron]

Just to add, he loves himself more than he does either of those women.

 

Really. Can you provide more than a general statement with no detail backing it up? The original poster loves her MM man, he loves her as well, and he loves his wife. It appears that Bailey is happy with this arrangment today andher MM is happy. I would say that we have 2 humans that find much satisfaction in THEIR realtionship together. Perhaps one day, it will evolve into something else, but it seems like everyone is satisfied, oh except the group here. I wish Bailey much happiness in her situation.

[Bailey14]

Really. Can you provide more than a general statement with no detail backing it up? The original poster loves her MM man, he loves her as well, and he loves his wife. It appears that Bailey is happy with this arrangment today andher MM is happy. I would say that we have 2 humans that find much satisfaction in THEIR realtionship together. Perhaps one day, it will evolve into something else, but it seems like everyone is satisfied, oh except the group here. I wish Bailey much happiness in her situation.

 

Sauron, you are a bold individual. Your posts make me laugh, they make me cringe, they make me smile. You are unapologetically candid and I sooo appreciate that. This post sums it up beautifully. There was a time during this affair that I was terribly unhappy but, then I experienced a terrible tragedy. I watched my beautiful, 50 year old sister die 38 days after she was diagnosed with metastatic ocular melanoma to the liver. Today I rejoice in anyone or anything that brings me joy. My MM loves me and I love him. The time we spend together is exquisite and as I have quoted before....."I'd rather have 30 minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special." He is my 30 minutes of wonderful!

[AnotherRound]

Would you please post your academic credentials as a "realtionship counseler", your advice doesn't sound like anything I would expect from a degreed "relationship counseler". The one's I have known and talked to would never make judgements like you do.

 

I thought the same thing. I've never heard of a counselor judging people in that way. If a client came in and said that they had an A, would they be told that an A is NEVER right? That's not a counselor's call... and I agree, the things she was saying were not striking me as counselor like.

[trinity1]

Would you please post your academic credentials as a "realtionship counseler", your advice doesn't sound like anything I would expect from a degreed "relationship counseler". The one's I have known and talked to would never make judgements like you do.

 

She's a "self employed dog behaviourist". Perhaps that's her credentials?

[Bailey14]

Please let's not run the risk of having this thread closed. Let's be kind to each other!!!