frozensprouts Posted September 20, 2012 Posted September 20, 2012 there are lots of threads on here that really confuse me...especially the ones where honesty is made out to be something to be avoided... why is honesty so difficult? If one is having troubles in their marriage, doesn't feel they want to be married anymore, wants to be married but have outside relationships, etc. then why is it so damned difficult to say so? Isn't it more difficult to be dishonest and deceitful...isn't there, even if it's pushed way down, a part of someone who's involved in an affair that hates the dishonesty and finds it mentally and emotionally draining? If someone doesn't place much value on monogamy, fair enough, but why can't they be honest, even if it's only to their spouse? ( this isn't intended to be a discussion of whether or not human beings are naturally a monogamous creature...whether or not they are really is irrelevant...it's the honesty I'd like to discuss) 5
underwater2010 Posted September 20, 2012 Posted September 20, 2012 Great questions. I was raised that honesty and integrity are the most important character traits a person should esteem to. I try to be that person everyday of my life. It saddens me to see other people that do not. That they truly go out of their way to lie and deceive others, whether it be in marriage or everyday life. I have always felt that hard work and earned goodies taste the sweetest.
JamesM Posted September 20, 2012 Posted September 20, 2012 Sometimes honesty is NOT the best option. Example...my wife has the habit of stating how she feels AT THE moment. Two days later, she feels completely different and either excuses her comment as "You know that is only how I felt then" or "I was angry/sad/glad then but now I feel differently." I am the opposite. I feel that it is better to only "be honest" when you know that it is more than a feeling. Most people are "honest" out of anger or another emotion but do not stop and think of how (a) it will affect the other person or (b) stopping to think if they will regret being so honest. Today's honest comment may be tomorrow's greatest regret. But yet, it is true....today's comment left unsaid may be tomorrow's regret. I tend to be cautious in opening a can of worms that I may later wish were never opened. Am I right? Sometimes but not always. 1
ComingInHot Posted September 20, 2012 Posted September 20, 2012 Frozen Sprouts: One of the things I have gotten out of counseling then read in practice here in LS infidelity forum is that people find it easy to be honest to others about different/certain things. Sometimes, it is the same w/ being honest about only some things to themselves. For Me... w/regards to marriage, I have discovered (along w/my husband) that I need to be honest w/myself FIRST, then one hundred percent honest w/FWH. about EVERYTHING. My FWH told me once that if he had been honest w/HIMSELF he would not have had the A. He also said that being honest to Himself is probably one of the hardest things he has ever done. And I would have to agree w/him when I turn it toward Me. 2
HappyAtLast Posted September 20, 2012 Posted September 20, 2012 I think it is quite simple. Being honest is generally followed by consequences (as is everything in life, I believe). If someone tells their spouse that they are unhappy in their marriage and are considering pursuing a relationship with another, there most likely will be negative consequences: that spouse may also exercise their options to also have someone on the side, that spouse may decide to leave and take half of the marital assets with them. It is less likely that there will be positive consequences, for example the spouse realizing that someone is unhappy enough to be seriously considering stepping outside of their marriage and working towards fixing whatever problems exist. Please note I am not condoning the above. edited: clarity 1
woinlove Posted September 20, 2012 Posted September 20, 2012 I agree that a large part of being honest with one's spouse is being honest with oneself. It seems that many people are not very honest with themselves in matters concerning infidelity. One sees terms like "it just happened", "I didn't mean for it to happen", "I found myself in an A", etc. Those terms suggest the person was not even admitting to themselves that they were choosing non-monogamy and so that may make it difficult for them to be honest with their spouse. People may use denial and rationalization to "allow" themselves to do something they think is wrong, and that denial and rationalization gets in the way with being honest with anyone, including themselves. It is not a very good way to live because it means they have internal conflicts, needing to lie to themselves, and that can hurt themselves and others, including lowering their self-esteem and confidence. 1
woinlove Posted September 20, 2012 Posted September 20, 2012 I think it is quite simple. Being honest is generally followed by consequences (as is everything in life, I believe). If someone tells their spouse that they are unhappy in their marriage and are considering pursuing a relationship with another, there most likely will be negative consequences: that spouse may also exercise their options to also have someone on the side, that spouse may decide to leave and take half of the marital assets with them. It is less likely that there will be positive consequences, for example the spouse realizing that someone is unhappy enough to be seriously considering stepping outside of their marriage and working towards fixing whatever problems exist. Please note I am not condoning the above. edited: clarity I agree with this for those people who feel the consequences of honesty (possible divorce, loss of assets, etc.) are worse than the consequences of dishonesty (which are mainly internal to oneself, although some might be concerned with how others view them as a dishonest person too). I just haven't found any consequences of honesty regarding monogamy/etc in any intimate relationship I have had to outweigh the consequences I see for myself in becoming deceitful. I know I am happier being open and honest with those I am intimate with and share my life with. For others, they may place less importance on intimacy/honesty/loyalty/etc or they may place more importance on staying married/keeping assets/etc. 2
HappyAtLast Posted September 20, 2012 Posted September 20, 2012 I agree with this for those people who feel the consequences of honesty (possible divorce, loss of assets, etc.) are worse than the consequences of dishonesty (which are mainly internal to oneself, although some might be concerned with how others view them as a dishonest person too). I think you need to consider that, in most cases, one who cheats is not looking to end their marriage and hence, those consequences would not be within their particular plan.
woinlove Posted September 20, 2012 Posted September 20, 2012 I think you need to consider that, in most cases, one who cheats is not looking to end their marriage and hence, those consequences would not be within their particular plan. Yes, I just used those as examples - it is whatever one feels the consequences of being honest are compared to the consequences of being dishonest - where the latter are largely internal and only apply to those who value honesty/integrity. For me the latter has always won. Others might find a different balance sheet, depending on what they value.
veryhappy Posted September 20, 2012 Posted September 20, 2012 We are all being dishonest at one point or another. It can be answering from "Do you like my haircut?" to cheating. Most people act based on short term results. Being honest is hard, because short term it makes things most difficult. It's easier to put pain on credit to be paid years later, and keep things warm now. With R, I've noticed certain people develop certain dynamics. We usually get into the same fights, and some times the other part in the relationship simply does not listen. More so, he/she sends signals that some topics are better avoided altogether. In other words "I'd rather you lie to me nicely." Not everyone wants complete honesty, even if they may say that in words. Fear of disappointing can also be a big factor. The truth can disappoint many people.
GLDheart Posted September 20, 2012 Posted September 20, 2012 Some lies are OK. For example: My Fiancee and I had been together YEARS and she had always managed to hide this one particular thing from me. I simply never had any evidence of it existing. I was living a lie that she perpetuated. It was a false sense of security and safety. Almost like a magical fantasy of perfection. Then one night it was shattered... the illusion was broken... and it could never be undone... We were sleeping peacefully side by side. We had both had quite a few drinks and so she was in a deeper sleep than normal. Maybe it was the booze, but we were both very relaxed... and then it slipped out. MY FALSE WORLD WAS SHATTERED FOREVER. No longer would she ever again be the perfect example of white purity and perfection. The veil lifted and the lie was exposed. She had farted in her sleep. 1
seren Posted September 20, 2012 Posted September 20, 2012 I agree FS, I compare dishonesty in relationships as taking away someone's choices. It is, to me, a form of control and I am not in favour of someone being with me because I control how I act and what I say to them, equally I expect honesty especially when it affects me and mine, how I choose to input into the relationship, what I prepared to overlook or put up with in the name of harmony. Dishonesty is not excusable when the actions of one are hidden, meant to deceive another into living a lie. I don't get why it is so hard to say how things really are and then discuss what are dealbreakers and what the consequences would be if one did not agree with the other. I am constantly harping on about the importance of informed choice and I don't see what is so hard treat the person you are sharing a life with as you would want to be treated yourself. Well, I do see, it's having one's cake and eating it I suppose. I know the arguments for being dishonest, kids, money, housing etc etc, but it still boils down to someone getting their needs met at the expense of another. 3
beenburned Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 Seren Good post! Why do they feel they have the right to decide what is best for another person?(spouse or OW) The reason they don't just ask them is it might prevent them from getting all of what they want. Selfishness and greed at its finest! 2
RickFox Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 Some lies are OK. For example: My Fiancee and I had been together YEARS and she had always managed to hide this one particular thing from me. I simply never had any evidence of it existing. I was living a lie that she perpetuated. It was a false sense of security and safety. Almost like a magical fantasy of perfection. Then one night it was shattered... the illusion was broken... and it could never be undone... We were sleeping peacefully side by side. We had both had quite a few drinks and so she was in a deeper sleep than normal. Maybe it was the booze, but we were both very relaxed... and then it slipped out. MY FALSE WORLD WAS SHATTERED FOREVER. No longer would she ever again be the perfect example of white purity and perfection. The veil lifted and the lie was exposed. She had farted in her sleep. Bah!! This is a lie sir! Women don't fart, it's a proven fact! 1
Author frozensprouts Posted September 21, 2012 Author Posted September 21, 2012 I think it is quite simple. Being honest is generally followed by consequences (as is everything in life, I believe). If someone tells their spouse that they are unhappy in their marriage and are considering pursuing a relationship with another, there most likely will be negative consequences: that spouse may also exercise their options to also have someone on the side, that spouse may decide to leave and take half of the marital assets with them. It is less likely that there will be positive consequences, for example the spouse realizing that someone is unhappy enough to be seriously considering stepping outside of their marriage and working towards fixing whatever problems exist. Please note I am not condoning the above. edited: clarity fair enough... I suppose that people may not be thinking rationally about things when they are having an affair...the short term gains outweigh the long term consequences... The thing is that lying to cover up an affair because you don't want it to end your marriage seems pretty paradoxical...the lying and deceit ay be a big part of why a marriage would end
Hawaii50 Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Honesty forces a person to live in reality, and most people don't want or know how to do that because their reality sucks that bad... because they suck that bad. I feel jaded today. Edited September 21, 2012 by Hawaii50
skywriter Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) there are lots of threads on here that really confuse me...especially the ones where honesty is made out to be something to be avoided... why is honesty so difficult? If one is having troubles in their marriage, doesn't feel they want to be married anymore, wants to be married but have outside relationships, etc. then why is it so damned difficult to say so? Isn't it more difficult to be dishonest and deceitful...isn't there, even if it's pushed way down, a part of someone who's involved in an affair that hates the dishonesty and finds it mentally and emotionally draining? If someone doesn't place much value on monogamy, fair enough, but why can't they be honest, even if it's only to their spouse? ( this isn't intended to be a discussion of whether or not human beings are naturally a monogamous creature...whether or not they are really is irrelevant...it's the honesty I'd like to discuss) Hi Frozensprouts! Allow me to mention first that I almost always come away with something beneficial from your post and replies to others. what I would say in regards to your question about honest being difficult. I would say my individual perception as to why I set aside my integrity, was a combination of various excuses, at that stage of my life. I carried a deep seeded anger at my exH for walking away from our marriage, leaving me to be the only anchor for our two children. So my faith suffered a blow. No excuse to deny responsibility for my choice.Lifes not easy and the easy way out, can often gives others power over your life, unknowingly. Some will test you, some will use you and some will teach you. Edited September 21, 2012 by skywriter
Author frozensprouts Posted September 21, 2012 Author Posted September 21, 2012 Hi Frozensprouts! Allow me to mention first that I almost always come away with something beneficial from your post and replies to others. what I would say in regards to your question about honest being difficult. I would say my individual perception as to why I set aside my integrity, was a combination of various excuses, at that stage of my life. I carried a deep seeded anger at my exH for walking away from our marriage, leaving me to be the only anchor for our two children. So my faith suffered a blow. No excuse to deny responsibility for my choice.Lifes not easy and the easy way out, can often gives others power over your life, unknowingly. Some will test you, some will use you and some will teach you. thanks for the compliment:) it sounds like you have put a lot of time and effort into figuring out why you did the things you did... we all do what we do based upon the best knowledge we have at the time... given what you know now, would you have acted differently, or do you feel you did the right thing given the circumstances you had to deal with at the time?
skywriter Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 frozensprouts,given what you know now, would you have acted differently, or do you feel you did the right thing given the circumstances you had to deal with at the time? I absolutely would've acted differently. ironically the challenge is to be yourself, in a world that may often try to get you to be someone you don't necessarily want to be. Be yourself and the right people will love the real you. Never make choices when you are lonely or going through traumatic experiences. 3
freestyle Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 frozensprouts,given what you know now, would you have acted differently, or do you feel you did the right thing given the circumstances you had to deal with at the time? I absolutely would've acted differently. ironically the challenge is to be yourself, in a world that may often try to get you to be someone you don't necessarily want to be. Be yourself and the right people will love the real you. Never make choices when you are lonely or going through traumatic experiences.[/QUOTE] Excellent wisdom there, skywriter----something many of us learn the hard way.......... 1
Author frozensprouts Posted September 21, 2012 Author Posted September 21, 2012 frozensprouts,given what you know now, would you have acted differently, or do you feel you did the right thing given the circumstances you had to deal with at the time? I absolutely would've acted differently. ironically the challenge is to be yourself, in a world that may often try to get you to be someone you don't necessarily want to be. Be yourself and the right people will love the real you. Never make choices when you are lonely or going through traumatic experiences. this is really excellent advice...i think that reading that will really help someone 1
ComingInHot Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 I was just posting something on another thread I started and it got me questioning myself ( I do that a lot thses days) What about (for me at least) if I believed I was being honest w/myself (like making progress, things are good, I'm not bitter...) to then write something that could be looked as as me contradicting what I believed? Would I then have been honest w/myself before or now? Is this just the BS side of dealing, coping? I think the thread is actually about FWH's honesty gut I tend to internalize as a checks and balance so I'm not remaining one sided. I'm very "off balance" today
HappyAtLast Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 Being honest with one's self is probably even more important than being honest with one's spouse. I knew as I allowed myself to fall in love with another woman all those years ago that I was doing it. I was fully aware that I was allowing it and what the consequences of my actions might be. In my humble opinion, THAT is where the honesty needs to begin.
HappyAtLast Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 The "internal consequences" that were spoken of are, I believe, the ability to look oneself in the eye in the mirror and not think less of oneself than before the lies began. My point though, was one of control. The consequences may cause the one who is cheating to no longer be in control. I do agree with you about the internal consequences, but I do not believe that all who cheat are concerned with those, particularly during said affair. (because that entail one actually looking at their own actions)
Spark1111 Posted September 21, 2012 Posted September 21, 2012 I really do not know, except to agree with others who said it is a lack of being honest with oneself first. If you have not examined what you feel and why you are feeling it, how would you ever be able to disclose that to your spouse in a clear, concise and compassionate manner? You can't. It's impossible. How can a spouse even attempt to help fill a need if they are unaware that filling that need, or not, may be a deal breaker for the marriage? Telling someone you are unhappy (with what? with whom? With me? with the marriage?) is NOT the same as saying, "I feel lonely and disconnected. Can we make more of an attempt to talk, go out, have fun, have sex, fillintheblank?" It's a huge difference, not only in identifying one's needs, but also the manner in which it is expressed. So, without that sort of introspection and compassionat communication, lying is an easier route. Let me lie to two people until I FIGURE OUT what it is I really need. Very confused and heartbreakingly selfish. 3
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