Nothing to Say, or Way too much to say, not sure which

[johan]

Girlfriend and I were discussing whether it is appropriate to accept a gift from a member of the opposite sex who has shown obvious attraction. When you're already in a relationship, that is. She did, and I gave her a hard time about it. It came down to semantics and philosophy. Semantics: what do you mean by "hitting on" or "appropriate" or "attraction". Philosophy: the guy didn't come out and actually SAY he wanted her, or touch her or anything, so she couldn't say FOR SURE what his intentions were. Good grief.

 

All I did was give her a hard time. I didn't freak out in a jealous rage or accuse her of anything. I didn't really even criticize her, I just pointed out that the guy is obviously interested in her and she should think about what it means to accept a gift from him. All she had to do was admit it was weird and maybe next time she'd think harder about it. All she REALLY had to do was say sorry and that she didn't mean to do something that would upset me and that maybe there was more to it than she thought. I'm perfectly willing to believe it was completely innocent on her part. I just want to hear that she understands that I might feel uncomfortable with it.

 

Instead of that she just defended herself and brought up stuff I did from 9 months ago that made her feel bad. The same stuff she's brought up over and over and over. Whenever she wants to beat me with it. And I'm sick of hearing about it and she knows it. And in the context of our discussion, where it was really just a shield she was using to defend her own odd behavior, I'm MORE than sick of it. She does that, and she makes 1000 excuses. I completely lose respect for her.

 

I'm having so many feelings of sadness and anger and fear that I don't even know where to start with her. I'm always wondering whether we're moving forward at all or maybe we're in for 20 years of harmless dating and separate households.

 

Tonight I just couldn't speak. I didn't want to act happy. If I've told her 1000 times that I want more, that I'm sorry, that I can't really deal with the same old stuff over and over until my tongue dries out, that I need her to understand how I feel about her behavior, etc, etc... what is the point of just saying it again? I didn't say anything at all tonight except what was absolutely necessary. I didn't smile or show any affection. It wasn't deliberate, I just couldn't. I get that way sometimes; I get completely blocked. I couldn't get more distant from her if I was at the south pole. I've never really understood that part of myself, but I know it makes people wonder what the hell. They don't get mad. I wonder if it's passive aggressive or something, like screaming F__k you without having to actually do it.

 

Then I realized the evening wasn't going to get any better, so I called it off and just dropped her off at home. With no explanation for why I was behaving so coldly. I know I was a jerk, but I just couldn't get a grip and be the good, understanding, great communicator. I'm tired from a long week of work, and I'm tired from failing in every explanation I could give her. I just can't make words do the job.

 

Now she's sitting at home wondering what the hell. And knowing that, my respect is just rock bottom, because if she had half a brain she'd know exactly what the hell. Of course at some point tonight or tomorrow I'll have to suck it up and call her and taaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalk about it all. I'll have to be the good guy and try to rein in all my childish behavior.

 

Maybe someone can relate.

[Thinkalot]

I dont have much time to post right now, but just wanted to say sorry for your hassles ..... I reckon plenty of people could relate! My fiance could...so could I. Dredging stuff up from the past is never fair. Acting defensively, as she has, is a reaction to hide hurt, or upset or insecurity. It's not a great reaction...I'm guilty of it from time to time too. Maybe when you talk and things are calmer, you can sort through some of these feelings. I hope so. Hang in there Johan.

 

But I do think, sooner or later, the relationship will need to move forward, or yo'll get resentful. And remember, everyone sees things differently.

[FreeMe]

Johan,

 

I don't think you're being childish. You can't just keep bouncing back from her accusations and manipulations without some lingering anger. You did nothing wrong here - she did. Most women know better than to accept a gift from someone who's interested if she, herself is not interested. I learned that when I was barely out of my teens. She likes the attention because she has such low self-esteem.

 

This relationship is damaging you - you're a nice guy with normal expectations and the patience of a saint, but the dynamic of this relationship is going to turn you into an angry guy who has a hard time trusting women. I wish you would move on.

[johan]

Thanks. Your responses mean a lot to me. I know you're only getting my side of it. I'm trying to be fair to her.

 

We had a tough weekend. I called her and told her what I expected from her as far as each of us paying attention to how the other feels. I'm learning, too, so I don't expect total perfection from her.

 

We got together yesterday, and things seemed good again, until she brought up another thing that she's been giving me a hard time about for so long. Something I've explained and apologized for and we've fought about before. More than once. She HAD to talk about the gift thing. I didn't bring it up. And the she HAD to go back to something I did in the past that made it clear that I was no better than her. What is she trying to prove? It almost seems like it's a reflex or something. Like she goes on autopilot. It doesn't even occur to her that it might bother me, even though we've discussed and argued about that stuff 1000 times. It's so weird. Then she tells me she wishes I could control my anger. I don't think she realizes that I DO control my anger.

 

So I got pissed and quiet again, she got confused. She came over later and I told her she has to stop bringing those things up. I told her it's killing my feelings for her and that I can't take it anymore. She left, kind of moping, and said "take care" as she left. As if she had no idea when we'd ever see each other again.

 

I don't have any idea what is going to happen. I just know I don't have the energy to be tolerant and patient right now. I'm out of solutions, I've tried everything. I guess it's her turn.

[Thinkalot]

Johan, you have offered me much good advice, so I hope my advice may help you too!

 

I can relate to some of what you are saying. I too sometimes push my fiance, and then tell HIM to control his anger! That makes him more mad...or he withdraws and gets silent and cold. Sound familiar? I then get upset...and so it goes.

 

The thing is, through counselling, and some soul searching, I have come to be aware of when my behaviour is at fault...and to try and fix it. Sometimes it takes a lot of self control to pull back in the heat of the argument, and try and stand in his shoes. But when I do, it helps so much...because often I'm able to relate to where he is at, and if I can do that, and even manage to say sorry for my part...he is relieved, and comes around too.

 

Of course, we are both aware of the impact my OCD has...that is of course part and parcel of things...but we are learning how to manage that better too. In fact, lately I've been going great guns! And he's noticed.

 

Another thing...I too am overcoming insecurity, and through this relationship, have been learning how to act fairly, even despite sometimes feeling needy or anxious. That means, I have had to learn NOT to drag up stuff from the past. I used to do that. Why? because I was frightened, because I was insecure, and that made me defensive, and want to prove a point...to show he was no better than me. Or else, I would be scared, and want him to again assure me he wouldn't do whatever it was, again. It has taken a lot of personal growth to be able to accept some advice, or even some gentle criticism, and say "ok, I'll take that on board...I'll try and fix that...i didn't realise".

Plus, I have had to realise he loves me...I that I love him and accept him and his faults. I feel sure on the inside. That takes away some of the anxiety and insecurity. Getting to that place of certainty.

 

My fiance has also begun working on himself. He also tries to understand my needs, and where I am coming from. Sometimes it's him who manages to calm an argument...or too simply offer me what I need...which may be just listening to me talk for a while.

 

You seem so keen to work on things....I really must applaude your efforts.

 

I have related our experiences because they seem familiar in some ways to your own. Also I realise I have sometimes acted the same way your gf does.

 

I really think she needs to do some work on herself. She does need to learn to be secure enough, to take advice or criticism, without getting defensive, or dragging up your past misdeeds. Plus, letting things go, such as the gift incident, is so important! I'm still learning to do that. Sometimes I can...sometimes I don't...but usually in time now, I realise I have to.

 

My fiance has had to learn that one too.

 

If you are able to talk to her, and take the approach that you both need to work on yourselves as individuals...it might be a non threatening way of bringing this up. If you can talk about the dynamic between you and the patterns, without sounding like you are blaming.

 

It takes two though Johan. My fiance and I have grown a lot both as individuals, and as a couple, in our 3 years together. And we are still learning and growing!

 

I so hope you two can grow together too. I think you can only stay at the place you are at for so long, before some changes need to be made, and the two of you move forward. Otherwise, this will not get better, and it will get harder to repair the distance which will creep in.

[johan]

I can relate to some of what you are saying. I too sometimes push my fiance, and then tell HIM to control his anger! That makes him more mad...or he withdraws and gets silent and cold. Sound familiar? I then get upset...and so it goes.

Sounds familiar.

 

The thing is, through counselling, and some soul searching, I have come to be aware of when my behaviour is at fault...and to try and fix it. Sometimes it takes a lot of self control to pull back in the heat of the argument, and try and stand in his shoes. But when I do, it helps so much...because often I'm able to relate to where he is at, and if I can do that, and even manage to say sorry for my part...he is relieved, and comes around too.

I need her to try to do that. I think she thinks she doesn't have to do that, because I'm the man and I'm supposed to look after my own feelings. But if she tried, I would soften toward her in an instant. Just some little sign she's trying to be on my side.

 

Of course, we are both aware of the impact my OCD has...that is of course part and parcel of things...but we are learning how to manage that better too. In fact, lately I've been going great guns! And he's noticed.

I'm glad to hear that. I can't tell what her problem is. It's hard to nail it down. Sometime after we break up, I'll have perfect hindsight and figure out it really was me.

 

Another thing...I too am overcoming insecurity, and through this relationship, have been learning how to act fairly, even despite sometimes feeling needy or anxious. That means, I have had to learn NOT to drag up stuff from the past. I used to do that. Why? because I was frightened, because I was insecure, and that made me defensive, and want to prove a point...to show he was no better than me. Or else, I would be scared, and want him to again assure me he wouldn't do whatever it was, again. It has taken a lot of personal growth to be able to accept some advice, or even some gentle criticism, and say "ok, I'll take that on board...I'll try and fix that...i didn't realise".

Plus, I have had to realise he loves me...I that I love him and accept him and his faults. I feel sure on the inside. That takes away some of the anxiety and insecurity. Getting to that place of certainty.

I hope she can do what you do. This is the first time I've really drawn the line for her. I have a feeling she's making plans to move away. Seems like every time we really argue, she starts looking for jobs out of state. I try not to take her seriously. I consider it more of a scare tactic that I don't respond to. She tries to avoid introspection of any sort.

 

My fiance has also begun working on himself. He also tries to understand my needs, and where I am coming from. Sometimes it's him who manages to calm an argument...or too simply offer me what I need...which may be just listening to me talk for a while.

I'm glad to hear you both are making positive changes. I wonder how much LS has contributed to your progress.

 

You seem so keen to work on things....I really must applaude your efforts.

Thanks. Not sure it's wise for me to be so devoted. She has incredible potential though. It would be SO worth it, because when things are going well I just melt for her. That isn't often, but it happens.

 

I have related our experiences because they seem familiar in some ways to your own. Also I realise I have sometimes acted the same way your gf does.

It's amazing how similar it is. We haven't reached the level of commitment you have, and I can't tell when/if we ever will.

 

I really think she needs to do some work on herself. She does need to learn to be secure enough, to take advice or criticism, without getting defensive, or dragging up your past misdeeds. Plus, letting things go, such as the gift incident, is so important! I'm still learning to do that. Sometimes I can...sometimes I don't...but usually in time now, I realise I have to.

She's so far from even recognizing how she contributes to all this. I think we need a break so she can be objective. I've always let her off easy. This time I'm not even tempted. I don't know how we'll save this. I'm sad about it and I feel scared, but it's also a huge relief to not have to deal with it. I don't miss her right now. I know the same old stuff would come up. There's just nothing to say.

 

If you are able to talk to her, and take the approach that you both need to work on yourselves as individuals...it might be a non threatening way of bringing this up. If you can talk about the dynamic between you and the patterns, without sounding like you are blaming.

We've said that so many times.

 

I so hope you two can grow together too. I think you can only stay at the place you are at for so long, before some changes need to be made, and the two of you move forward. Otherwise, this will not get better, and it will get harder to repair the distance which will creep in.

I hope so, too. I've lost faith in her though. She needs to adjust her perspective and start acting as my partner. Of course, I've done some dumb things, too. Relationships are hard enough when both people are trying just as hard. I've made some real progress on some things lately that she doesn't even notice. That's probably the largest reason I'm so pissed. It doesn't matter what I do or say or how I act, it's all the same from her. She's put it on my shoulders to change and to do the right things for our relationship. I've done it all and I'm proud of the progress I've made in trying to be a real partner. She hasn't changed a thing. Maybe that's evidence of what her true feelings are. I guess I'll find out sooner or later. You'll know soon after I do.

[Thinkalot]

Good luck! Your words sound so familiar to my fiance's words to me late last year...when he basically put things on the line...and told me things either improved or it was over (a lot of that had to do with my OCD and constant questioning). I was devastated. At one point he even called it quits, and said he simply felt relieved. That he couldn't take it anymore.

 

Well, then I guess I made a deal with him. He ended up saying he loved me so much he really didn't want to go, but wasn't sure how we could go forward. I promised things would improve. That's when I saw a doc, started my anti-depressants, when to my psych and started to make real progress. He hung in there with me through that. I love him so much for that. He respects me and the progress I've made, and I respect his loyalty to me through all that.

 

Perhaps you putting it on the line will make her realise she has to do something now. If not, you will certainly have learned a lot from this both happy and painful experience.

 

Sending you my best.

[johan]

2 full days of silence. Ominous and kind of sad. Hopefully she's having productive thoughts. I'm waiting for her to offer a solution of some sort, because I've run out. Ironically, if she doesn't bring a solution to the table, she'll have to return my extra coffee table.

 

I don't want to be single again. I just want her to try to make this easier. I'm not THAT hard to be with.

[Thinkalot]

I am absolutely sure you are not that hard to be with. You seem smart, caring, reasonable, eager to try, self-aware and just like any other human with faults, as we all have.

 

Does she realise you are waiting for her? Does she know the ball is in her court? Have you communicated that?

 

It would be sad if she did not realise that.

 

Sorry it's a tough time for you.

[FreeMe]

Originally posted by johan

Ironically, if she doesn't bring a solution to the table, she'll have to return my extra coffee table.

 

LOL You even have a good sense of humor!

 

I'm sorry things aren't going as you've hoped. She seems to be in total denial that she does anything wrong! And you tend to try to take the blame for everything - but you know you're not to blame truly, or you wouldn't be in pergatory right now. You'd be her whipping boy and you know you don't deserve that.

 

Originally posted by johan

 

I can't tell what her problem is. It's hard to nail it down. Sometime after we break up, I'll have perfect hindsight and figure out it really was me.

 

Everything you've ever said indicates that this really is HER. You KNOW you're not doing the things she's accused you of, and when you do something wrong, you seem willing to admit it and apologize. This is her. I know you think that you two will break up and then she'll find a guy and she'll be the girl you wanted her to be with HIM. But it won't happen. She's going to have these problems over and over again until she takes some responsibility and does some work on herself. Believe me from someone who has worked and is still struggling.

 

I think you've done everything you can.

[Thinkalot]

I agree. If she does not take responsibility now, you two will break up, and she'll have the same problems with the next guy, unless of course, he is a complete doormat...but who wants to be with a doormat??

 

Looking back on my life, I can see I had some of the same faults in my relationship prior to the one I am in now. I left the relationship (there were also many valid reasons why I did so). This time though, I'm not going anywhere. And I'm doing a lot of work on myself along the way.

 

Still, I am a hopeful romantic soul, so I hope you and your gf end up sharing a coffee over that table.

[johan]

Day 3 of nothing. Of course, it's only 9:30 so who knows. I still feel the same though. Nothing to say. I guess if I had something to say, I'd call her up and say it. I have to admit, though, that I'd be kind of scared to call her. There's a good chance her emotions for me have shorted out and she's ready to move on. I hate hearing that in a girl's voice.

 

I think there is probably value in letting her know that I still love her (I think) and I would be so happy to hear her say she's ready to make a real effort. But I figure whether I call or not, if she loves me, and it occurs to her just what it is I need from her, I think she'll be on the phone or at my door right away. Unless she's also scared to contact me. But a woman usually wouldn't let something like that stand in her way. So I think I know where we stand.

 

I've seen beautiful women make fools of themselves for strong guys who stood their ground. They won't do that for just anyone. I've never had one do it for me.

 

This isn't breaking my heart, because I know what is waiting for me if I just give in and run to her. More of the same.

 

On the bright side, I did a 9 mile trail run tonight. I feel incredibly fit right now. Very satisfying. The trail was gorgeous. My knees even feel good (knock on patella).

 

That's how life seems to go. When one thing gets good something else goes bad. It's like a natural balance. It's not possible to have it all.

[johan]

Day 4. Zero. I thought about writing her an email, but I'm still afraid. And kind of angry. And I'm still not sure I can come up with the words I need. I figure there will be a right time to contact her. Really, I think she's the one who should break this silence when she figures out her response to the things I said on Sunday night. I said it all, and the only logical thing for me to do is wait for a response.

 

We've taken days off after arguments occasionally, but never 4 in a row. Usually she calls or something. She seems to be taking this one much more seriously. She's probably thinking the same thing about me. I have no idea what I'm doing. I just know she really turned me off last weekend.

 

Went running tonight with the local club. After yesterday my legs were tired. While I was able to run with the fast group, they were chatting and I was hurting. That's pretty demoralizing. I remember that from my racing days, when I'd be getting near the rivet and some pro freak up front would be gabbing like it was a walk in the park. That's when I really start hurting, because I start thinking about how I feel compared to how they must feel. Then it's just a matter of time before I have to let them go.

 

Somewhere near the top, I quit and strolled back to the car. The whole way back I thought about her, because that was our pattern: I'd run up and then turn around and meet her and we'd hike back together. I'm starting to feel a lot worse about all this. I have to keep reminding myself why this is happening.

 

Every minute that passes, I know this silence is confirming for her that I don't love her. She's steeling herself to the idea of moving on. I hope she's also figuring out whether she loves me and maybe thinking about what she can do to keep this from happening again. Can she stop herself from torturing me with past semi-wrongs? Can she find a way to empathize with me on things? Maybe I'm expecting her to change things she can't change. Actually I'd be satisfied just to see her try.

 

It's 50/50, I'd say.

[johan]

Day 5. Nothing. It's Friday. Wonder what she did. I stayed home and goofed off.

 

I started an email to her, but I couldn't think of anything new to say. It came out kind of angry and demanding anyway. Probably better not to send it. So I saved it for later. I thought maybe it would make sense to tell her that I don't want to break up and that I think we can work things out. But I think whenever I say "we" it ends up being me. I feel like I should be hearing that from her this time.

 

I still have nothing to say to her really. No particular reason to call. It just feels like she should. But I know how her mind works. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if she thinks I broke up with her or that I no longer love her. Even though I never said either of those things. She always jumps to the worst possible conclusions.

[moimeme]

It sounds as though you love her for her potential. It's a fairly ruthless trap to fall into because a lot of people never do realize their potential.

 

You said she avoids introspection. Folks who do that, I think, alredy feel 'flawed' and fear they'll feel that much more so if they take a hard look at themselves.

 

However, she'll never have any motivation to change unless she's willing to get intimately acquainted with her inner self. Even if she does, she'd then need the strength of character to admit her failings and resolve to change. People often have very strong defense mechanisms against having failings at all; hence the denial and projecting of blame.

 

Thinkalot's right - a stated ultimatum may shake her up and motivate her - or she may find the task too daunting to even contemplate although to fail to do so means the loss of you. I've known people who were so wrapped up in their cloaks of defenses that they were trapped - and trapped in self-destructive patterns. It's tremendously sad, but you simply cannot help someone who won't reach out a hand for you to grab. All you can do is stand helplessly and frustratedly by as you watch them sink into the morass.

 

I think you do need to send her a communication to lay out that she must seek help or risk losing you - but only do it if you will follow through. I don't think it's fair to leave a hole of silence for her to try to interpret. Right now you could both be using this as a test of love for the other - which leads only to a foolish deadlock. Quit playing 'chicken' and tell her plainly what the situation is. She'll either step up to the plate, as Thinkalot did - or she'll decide that it's too scary to leave her defenses even if it means losing love. Either way, you'll then not be stuck in holding pattern wondering what's up.

[Thinkalot]

Hey there. Justcaught up on all this. I'm sorry you haven't spoken yet. I agree with moi though. Call her. Just do it. One of you has to, it might as well be you, otherwise all your relationship and efforts could end with this...a fizzle of confusion and fading love and pain... Sort it out...get some clarity. Go to that coffee table with a plan though. Things you would ideally like to see happen, and the things you would like/need to see change.

 

Communicate. If it doesn't work out this time, you can leave...at least you'll know you gave it your best, and things weren't lost through some kind of confusing stand off.

 

I love running too....good release isn't it?

 

Good luck. I'll be waiting to hear how you get on, and am hoping for the very best for you.

[Samson]

Of course at some point tonight or tomorrow I'll have to suck it up and call her and taaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalk about it all. I'll have to be the good guy and try to rein in all my childish behavior.

 

johan, I hope you know, this will be the story of you life, my life, and the story of perhaps the 98.4% of the non sociopathic human population.

 

But you story has several seemingly "unique" points:

 

#1. Another guy is in the position to give your GF a gift.

#2. She lets you know it.

#3. You get pissed off.

#4. Most interesting: SHE HASN"T CALLED YOU.

 

Now. I can only guess what #6 is: She HAS called the OM.

 

Not really a "unique" story at all, is it?

[Thinkalot]

Just call her Johan. Take it from there. You don't have to be a doormat by any means though.

 

BTW Samson...your new signature makes me laugh.

[johan]

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I agreed with you and I called her. We talked and argued about stuff for a couple hours on Saturday. I was pretty forceful with her that I expect some things to change. And she actually opened up to me and said some things that I needed to hear. But I wasn't satisfied, because it took so much effort.

 

She's so afraid of relationships. She's so incredibly freaked out by them. She keeps this magnetic-opposites kind of space between us. We can only get so close before it starts to take some kind of awkward extra force from several directions to get any closer. There's a comfortable distance. True closeness and intimacy takes amazing effort. That's where my resentment comes from. That's where it's been coming from all this time, and it built to the breaking point last week.

 

We're still on the rocks. We actually broke up and then quickly took it back. She's afraid to be together. We're both afraid to be apart.

[Thinkalot]

 

I feel both those emotions when I read your post.

 

I'm glad you are trying. I'm sad it's so much effort.

 

It is effort...but then hopefully you get to a point where it starts to get easier, and the closeness comes with less fear etc.

 

Things were immense effort for my fiance and I. They still require effort, of course, but less than in the past. The times of peace and even keel are greater than the other times. It used to be the other way round! Perhaps that gives you hope.

 

Is couples counselling worthwhile for you two? Has it helped much so far?

 

It can be expensive, I know...and sometimes the real change must come from within, and a true willingness to change.

 

Good luck. Glad you've made some progress and talked at least.