Can women be responsible for men's misogynistic view of dating?

[NoMoreJerks]

This. Women often expect men to endlessly pursue and chase them, desire them and put in all the work to create a relationship and then maintain it.

Wrong. I chased my ex just as much if not more than he chased me. In fact, I put in all the work when we first met, and throughout the relationship.

 

Women don't know what it's like to desire someone. They only know what it's like to be desired.

Wrong again. I desired my ex, probably more than he desired me. That didn't stop him from continuously emotionally blackmailing me, and ultimately not wanting the relationship. He desired his trips to Thailand more than he desired me. That was that. It has nothing to do with me taking anything for granted. I realize now that he was probably looking for a supposedly submissive Asian woman who wouldn't question him and his behavior. Hence his fantasies about Thai women. Little does he know that those women he admires for their submissiveness are just after his money.

 

My ex had very misogynistic views about women and dating. But it wasn't the fault of any women. It was his fault and his problem. No more excuses for being an ***hole!

[Mme. Chaucer]

Again, please try to keep responses in the context of the example cited in the OP. A woman who got to truly walk a mile in both male/female shoes. Don't you think this person's opinion is more valid than a man's opinion or a woman's opinion who never has had the opportunity to experience both sides of the coin?

 

No. She went into it with a full set of biases. It's still an interesting social experiment, but one person's individual experiment does not trump anybody else's opinion.

 

Why don't you PM Caius Ballard? According to him, he has conducted the identical social experiment in reverse.

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

Again, if a gay man dressed up as a woman, and tried to date men, would you claim that his experiences were the exact same as a biological, heterosexual woman?

 

WHERE in the world is Caius Ballard when we need him???

[Bristolius]

WHERE in the world is Caius Ballard when we need him???

 

He did seem happy with the experiment. Maybe he's been busy shopping.

[NoMoreJerks]

 

This isn't a gender issue; this is a behavioral l issue. As I see it, straight people who hate or strongly dislike the opposite gender suffer from these 2 problems:

 

1. They have a crippling fear of rejection.

2. They are equally terrified of being alone.

So true. My ex had a crippling fear of rejection. Based on what he told me, his previous gf's (with whom he had LTR's) had dumped him. Also, he kept complaining that women got men to order drinks for them, ate at their expense, etc., only to tell them "adios" at the end of the night. He hated that and couldn't accept it. It seems that he expected that, in return for his attentions, they would be putting out for sex. I, in fact, never accepted his offer to buy me drinks or eat at his expense, and I had sex with him after our third meet-up. Maybe that's why he stayed with me for as long as he did, but ultimately got bored of me and my desire for a serious relationship. Again, the problem wasn't women. The problem was with him, IN HIM, and in HIS attitude towards women. His fear of rejection was also evident in his constant threats to break up with me, every time he felt things were a bit tense. He wanted to be the one dumping me, instead of being dumped, because to him, that meant that he was doing the rejecting, rather than being rejected.

 

My ex was also terrified of being alone, but not to the extent of sacrificing even 1% of his independence. He wanted full independence and no encroachment into his "space." He wanted to have his cake and eat it too, to have a relationship without making any effort. He kept telling me that he doesn't mind being alone, but I have a feeling that he DOES, and that the fact that he said it, demonstrates his weak spot. The fact that he was alone back in the UK made him hate it, and made him go to Thailand seeking "adventure". He was torn between wanting too much of his own "space" and not wanting to be alone. Ultimately, it didn't work out because of that.

 

I found this quote a while back, about narcissists and intimacy :

 

"Narcissistic individuals have difficulty in maintaining optimal distance. The capacity to maintain optimal distance is essentially based upon a paradox. On the one hand, the lovers have to tolerate a relative loss of autonomy and self-sufficiency. On the other hand, they have to accept each other's essential separateness; after all, they have been raised by different sets of parents and grew up under different psychosocial circumstances. The narcissistic individual has difficulty in tolerating either side of this relational equation. He or she does not wish to renounce total autonomy while also not permitting a separate mental life to the other. Under the pressure of instinctual drives, the narcissistic individual comes too close to the other person and defending against the aggression, inevitably mobilized by intimacy, he withdraws and becomes cold and aloof. In contrast with the mature relatedness in love that gradually deepens, narcissistic relatedness is characterized by cycles of need-based intimacy and defensive withdrawal."

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Lets just give the answer the OP really wants. Yes, of course women are at fault for men's misogynistic views of dating. It's naturally always women's fault because women are evil hateful people that want to crush the living beating hearts of kind generous wonderful men.

 

There. Did that help OP?

[insertnamehere]

The war of the sexes is simply too "chicken or the egg" to assign blame to one gender or the other.

 

The problem with gender conflict is that a lot of our neuroses about the opposite sex get baked into our brains before we're old enough to know better.

 

It would be easy to tell a man in his mid-20s to not be a misogynist if he were a blank template. The problem is that he became a misogynist because of a combination of parenting, adult interactions and eventually his first forays into the sexual market as a teenager. All that happens before he's mature enough to handle the implications, absurdities and ambiguities of all those inputs.

 

Too much gets baked in too early.

Edited September 20, 2012 by insertnamehere

[threebyfate]

After you've had the hair on your entire body ripped out by their roots on a regular basis, including your most sensitive genitals, do tell me who should be hating whom!

[insertnamehere]

After you've had the hair on your entire body ripped out by their roots on a regular basis, including your most sensitive genitals, do tell me who should be hating whom!

 

In fairness, hair removal is a falsification of youth tactic that women use to in their arms race against other women.

 

If all women avoided it, men would not seek it. The problem is that female-against-female competition for male attention functions as a Prisoner's Dilemma problem. If one woman breaks rank, they might as well all break rank.

[NoMoreJerks]

In fairness, hair removal is a falsification of youth tactic that women use to in their arms race against other women.

 

If all women avoided it, men would not seek it. The problem is that female-against-female competition for male attention functions as a Prisoner's Dilemma problem. If one woman breaks rank, they might as well all break rank.

LOL! I wouldn't have thought anyone would be able to pull a PD out of this. Well done. But I disagree. I don't shave my armpits and legs and genitals because I'm in competition with women and because if I don't do that, men will find other women who do that more attractive. I do it because I find it gross not to do it - especially armpits and genitals lol -- cos hair acts as a trap for nasty odors.... There was a point in my life when I just was not interested in dating, never looked for a guy, and pushed quite a few away inadvertently. I still shaved, though.

[bac]

This. Women often expect men to endlessly pursue and chase them, desire them and put in all the work to create a relationship and then maintain it.

 

Women somewhat take these things for granted and think these are things we should just buckle up and do because it is(supposedly) in our nature. They don't understand that it can be frustrating to only give and not recieve so to say.

 

Women don't know what it's like to desire someone. They only know what it's like to be desired.

 

What about a woman who is on a pedestal endlessly waiting for any man to desire her for a serious R?

A man has the right to chose a woman who he really likes. A woman has no right to chose the right guy. She has to chose between a rock and a hard place because men have the right to chose. Women have to date and to get married guys who they do not like at all. And, if we do not do that, we are going to be single and have no kids.

 

As for men's frustration be a giver, women do give men everything they can. The things are our love, friendship and sex. But, men do not value any of the things. They want us to behave as we are biological males filled with testosterone, give them money and to be thankful for sex.

[insertnamehere]

LOL! I wouldn't have thought anyone would be able to pull a PD out of this.

 

My internetese must be falling behind. "PD" means . . . what exactly?

 

 

There was a point in my life when I just was not interested in dating, never looked for a guy, and pushed quite a few away inadvertently. I still shaved, though.

 

I think it's worth pausing to consider that the continuation of an ingrained behavior does not necessarily speak to the origins of the behavior, particularly on a macro scale.

[insertnamehere]

Women have to date and to get married guys who they do not like at all. And, if we do not do that, we are going to be single and have no kids.

 

You don't have to. The case is just that if you don't, the genetic code that underlies your behavior will be wiped from this earth, leaving the genetic code of women who did concede to mother the next generation.

 

I'm sure lots of human beings copped an attitude about their role in the reproductive game and opted to not reproduce. And now their genetic code is entirely gone from this world.

[Emilia]

Her opinion doesn't count because we know nothing of her PRIOR mental make up outside that she's gay. She could be predispositioned towards a violent, victim mentality.

 

This isn't a gender issue; this is a behavioral l issue. As I see it, straight people who hate or strongly dislike the opposite gender suffer from these 2 problems:

 

1. They have a crippling fear of rejection.

2. They are equally terrified of being alone.

 

Being rejected isn't a big deal. I've been rejected so many times in my life that I can't even add up the past week. I've been rejected by friends, lovers, employers, clients...this list is endless. Being rejected is good for the soul. It teaches you how to accept disappointment with grace and maturity and inspires you towards self improvement.

 

Unless, of course, you're terrified of rejection because you're emotionally stunted, ashamed of how you feel, and have an unnatural obsession with power and vulnerability. In THAT case, I can see how rejection could be more than just a bit of a bummer to you.

 

Further, being alone is NOT a big deal. I love love love living alone, I love having my own space, I have a wonderful job, great friends, a pain in the butt brother who keeps me busy, and the company of my pets should I feel the need to get a little snuggly. Back when I was dating, I wasn't worried or bothered by the thought of 'dying alone.' Ultimately, we all die alone. Love is great, love is wonderful, but romantic love isn't the ONLY satisfying love available.

 

Now if I couldn't stand the sound of my own breathing, I might have a problem with being alone. If I was a person who lacked imagination or hobbies or a social life, I might want to GRASP at any man in existence. But that's not me.

 

I think rather than hating the opposite gender, some people need to take a good long hard look at THEMSELVES and figure out what is missing in their own lives that causes them to lash out at half the population.

 

100% spot on which - again - is the reason why this post has been largely ignored.

 

There is no point in arguing with these guys, they are not looking for a solution. You, Hokie, Tha Wholigan and many others are capable of posting thread-stopping posts that cut to the truth but unfortunately they tend to preach to the choir and not get through to those that would really need it.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

You make posts like the OP's all the time, nobody really scolds you for it either. I actually agree with a lot of what you say, I won't lie for modern men in the same fashion that your types make excuses for modern women. Well, it's not your fault, somebody organized you into a political group/team to play on because you have a vagina, while men don't have anything like that. So while most men will agree, the majority of males are dirtbags with a dick in place of a brain and a brain in place of a dick, people on Team Urethra never seem to give an inch when someone criticizes women.

 

Well , at least you don't have that I'M LIKE SOOOOO CHANGING THE WORLD FOR MIGHTY, PROUD, SPIRITUAL VAGINAS! tone some of the mental midgets here have.

 

Show me where I made a post like the OP right now.

[jakelongot]

Show me where I made a post like the OP right now.

 

I have no problem with you disagreeing or agreeing with my original post. I posted it for discussion purposes...thought it was an interesting example. At least Verhrzn logically spoke about the example.

 

You on the other hand would rather flip a **** and get all emotional about it and rather than structure an argument that supports your side.

 

I have no problem with disagreement...in fact I encourage it. But you just flying off the handle makes discussion impossible. It is a trend i notice in your posts.

[Bristolius]

Her opinion doesn't count because we know nothing of her PRIOR mental make up outside that she's gay. She could be predispositioned towards a violent, victim mentality.

 

This isn't a gender issue; this is a behavioral l issue. As I see it, straight people who hate or strongly dislike the opposite gender suffer from these 2 problems:

 

1. They have a crippling fear of rejection.

2. They are equally terrified of being alone.

 

Being rejected isn't a big deal. I've been rejected so many times in my life that I can't even add up the past week. I've been rejected by friends, lovers, employers, clients...this list is endless. Being rejected is good for the soul. It teaches you how to accept disappointment with grace and maturity and inspires you towards self improvement.

 

Unless, of course, you're terrified of rejection because you're emotionally stunted, ashamed of how you feel, and have an unnatural obsession with power and vulnerability. In THAT case, I can see how rejection could be more than just a bit of a bummer to you.

 

Further, being alone is NOT a big deal. I love love love living alone, I love having my own space, I have a wonderful job, great friends, a pain in the butt brother who keeps me busy, and the company of my pets should I feel the need to get a little snuggly. Back when I was dating, I wasn't worried or bothered by the thought of 'dying alone.' Ultimately, we all die alone. Love is great, love is wonderful, but romantic love isn't the ONLY satisfying love available.

 

Now if I couldn't stand the sound of my own breathing, I might have a problem with being alone. If I was a person who lacked imagination or hobbies or a social life, I might want to GRASP at any man in existence. But that's not me.

 

I think rather than hating the opposite gender, some people need to take a good long hard look at THEMSELVES and figure out what is missing in their own lives that causes them to lash out at half the population.

 

 

Good ideas and I want to add a couple more that don't conflict.

 

Mysogyny is pretty dark. It's hatred right? So it's in the dark mind of the hater. For some it can arise when the real world does not conform to the puerile or solipsistic expectations of some men. They get frustrated because women are not behaving properly. That's why they think that all women should change.

 

Then there are the men who conflate sexual desire with a desire to possess. They feel entitled to own women. Again most women won't cooperate. They start to hate out of frustration.

 

It's a good thing that some men take the world as it is, take people as they find them, and love their mothers, sisters, wives, and daughters.

[Woggle]

Also there are some misogynists and misandrists to be fair who have taken so much abuse that they can only see relationships in terms of men and vs women.

[Janesays]

Also there are some misogynists and misandrists to be fair who have taken so much abuse that they can only see relationships in terms of men and vs women.

 

 

That's not an excuse Woggle. I've been severely abused too. My childhood was a nightmare and my ex husband was a real piece of work. I didn't let that give me an excuse to let myself be consumed by hatred. Many people don't. In fact, a lot of people who have been abused become MORE EMPATHETIC towards their fellow man/woman because they know how fragile we can be when hurt.

 

Or, they can just become what they hate the most....another abuser.

 

It's their choice and it's your choice too.

[Woggle]

That's not an excuse Woggle. I've been severely abused too. My childhood was a nightmare and my ex husband was a real piece of work. I didn't let that give me an excuse to let myself be consumed by hatred. Many people don't. In fact, a lot of people who have been abused become MORE EMPATHETIC towards their fellow man/woman because they know how fragile we can be when hurt.

 

Or, they can just become what they hate the most....another abuser.

 

It's their choice and it's your choice too.

 

I am not an abuser but during my divorce my mother told me that I am just mad that I lost a bottle in the gender and my male ego couldn't take it. I am determined not to lose another battle.

[Janesays]

I am not an abuser but during my divorce my mother told me that I am just mad that I lost a bottle in the gender and my male ego couldn't take it. I am determined not to lose another battle.

 

Personally, I think people that allow themselves to hate people for irrational reasons have the tendency to talk to and about them in an abusive way.

[Woggle]

Personally, I think people that allow themselves to hate people for irrational reasons have the tendency to talk to and about them in an abusive way.

 

I don't hate anybody but I am always on the lookout for the next person who can abuse me.

[Mme. Chaucer]

That's not an excuse Woggle. I've been severely abused too. My childhood was a nightmare and my ex husband was a real piece of work. I didn't let that give me an excuse to let myself be consumed by hatred. Many people don't. In fact, a lot of people who have been abused become MORE EMPATHETIC towards their fellow man/woman because they know how fragile we can be when hurt.

 

Or, they can just become what they hate the most....another abuser.

 

It's their choice and it's your choice too.

 

Sadly, this falls on deaf ears when it is a woman saying it in an environment polluted with hatred against women, like this one is on many days per month.

 

Anything bad that happens to any man that involved a woman - whether that is abuse, rejection, or court ordered child support - is always fair fodder for the hate fest.

[Woggle]

Don't misandrists also become the very thing they hate also?

[Janesays]

Don't misandrists also become the very thing they hate also?

 

Of course, which is why I'm purposely not singling out men in my posts. Unlike you. Consider that.