jakelongot Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 I started this in the middle of another thread, but it wasn't getting much traction. Thought I might give it its own thread: Norah Vincent wrote a book called "Self Made Man". The gist of the experience is that she is a woman that spent a year dressed in drag infiltrating male culture. Here is synopsis: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/22/books/review/22kamp.html What I found intriguing is that there is a section on dating and it is very revealing. Here is a page dedicated to some of the insights she has throughout. You can read some of the excerpts here: Self-Made Man: Love & Dating « Family Scholars Great quote from her: "Dating women as a man was a lesson in female power, and it made me, of all things, into a momentary misogynist… I disliked their superiority, their accusatory smiles, their entitlement to choose or dash me with a finger-tip, an execution so lazy, so effortless, it made the defeats and even the successes unbearably humiliating. Typical male power feels by comparison like a blunt instrument, its salvos and field strategies laughably remedial next to the damage a woman can do with a single cutting word: no. I saw how rejection might get twisted beyond recognition in the mind of a discarded male where misogyny and ultimately rape may be a vicious attempt to take what cannot be taken because it has not been bestowed. Sometimes women seem so superior when you see them through the eyes of an ordinary man that now, looking back on that feeling as a female, the very idea of [heterosexual sex], suddenly seems as absurdly out of scale and ineffectual as a pygmy poking his finger at the moon. …we women have far more power than we know, and because of it, even with our fears, our parries and our wits about us, we are in even more danger than we know or dare contemplate." I thought it was very interesting to hear her take after experiencing dating from both a male and female point of view. I think often times it is impossible for women to empathize with men's dating struggles because they just can't wrap their mind around it. I think women should take an extra minute before they dismiss a guy's views as misogynistic or sexist because it is just so hard to understand 3
MonsterMash Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 Dating? Not so much. My ex wife however....absolutely. I'm now what I describe as a "benevolent misogynist." I've figured out you're more likely to be successful with them if you're a bit of a prick. 2
Mme. Chaucer Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 No. Adult people are responsible for themselves, how they view the world and how they assimilate their experiences. Saying "yes" to this would mean that Black people can be responsible for racial prejudice, etc. And, I know there are people who believe this is the case. They're wrong, though.
Woggle Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 Both men and women are responsible for the fact that for the most part men and women pretty much hate each other these days. Nobody has their hands clean in this mess. 2
grkBoy Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 If you've looked around the net lately on the whole "Millennial men not growing up" or "Peter Pan Syndrome" topics, you can see there is a fallout. Women pushed to get the roles held by men, pushed for success, pushed to be beautiful, smart, sexy, successful, strong, etc... ...but now they pushed out many men who would have become ideal husbands. I see plenty of these women now lament on how their choices are "ugly doormat nice guys" or "hot bad boys who won't grow up". Thus they're frustrated that there isn't a large supply of hunky alpha males for them. This is yet more evidence that men and women need to abandon old school gender roles and even in dating to abandon the old traditions. Women just might have to approach and take on risk, but men also need to stop feeling like they lost their masculinity...even in later roles like her as the breadwinner and him as a SAHD. 5
verhrzn Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 By that token, all men are also responsible for women who are bitter or disillusioned with dating. Since men also have the power to reject women (either directly, when a woman approaches them, or indirectly by not approaching certain women), then men are also to blame for women who turn into "feminazi man-haters." I get rejected by men all the freaking time, and yet if I verge even slightly into "grr guys" territory, I get an extreme beating by male posters on this site. So tell me why women are to blame for men's misogyny, and men are not to blame for women's dislike of men? More importantly; men becoming angry at being rejection suggests that women shouldn't GET to say no. That they shouldn't get to reject a guy. Why is it that women do not have a right to refuse to have sex with a man? 6
Author jakelongot Posted September 19, 2012 Author Posted September 19, 2012 No. Adult people are responsible for themselves, how they view the world and how they assimilate their experiences. Saying "yes" to this would mean that Black people can be responsible for racial prejudice, etc. And, I know there are people who believe this is the case. They're wrong, though. I don't think there is a 1:1 there with your example. We are talking mysogyny specifically as it relates to dating, not men's mysogonistic view of women in general. Racial prejudice is the sum of 100's of years of ignorance, oppression and backwards thinking. I don't think it would be fair to black people to make that comparrison. 3
Woggle Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 It is a vicious cycle and men playing women then women playing men then men playing women and on and on and on. Sadly I don't see it ending anytime soon. 2
Author jakelongot Posted September 19, 2012 Author Posted September 19, 2012 Men and women both have different experiences in the dating scene. Their experiences combined with their values and opinions come to develop how they view dating from both a man's a woman's perspective. As hard as we can try to empathize and understand the opposite gender, we will never truly understand because men aren't women and women aren't men. The reason I started this thread and cited Norah Vincent's specific example is because this is about as close as we can get. She experienced dating as a woman and a man and I think that it is very telling that after dating as a man she expressed what I quoted above. Obviously if we were all given that opportunity we might all have different opinions, but because she does have first hand experience I would say that makes her opinion more valid than mine or yours....Can you really dispute what she is saying?
jobaba Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 Everybody needs to vent now and then. The important thing is to avoid those that have hurt you, avoid that type in the future, and not project their characteristics onto an entire gender, and keep truckin'. That said, I'll probably be back here whining by Friday.
verhrzn Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 Yes I can dispute it, because I take on the masculine role in my interactions, and I don't consider it anywhere near as crushing or soul-wrenching or awful as guys on here (or other places like Reddit) claim. Does it suck? Sure. Is it painful? Yep. But to develop a negative attitude towards an entire gender because of it? To physically violate a person because of they aren't doing what you want them to?? At my very worst, I have not come close to contemplating these thoughts. More importantly, the existence of guys who have experienced the same dating scene (gotten shot down, rejected, etc.) and DON'T hate women suggests that it is not women who are responsible, but individual men themselves. If women were responsible, every guy who got rejected would experience those negative attitudes. Since not every man does, it logically follows that women aren't to blame.
Author jakelongot Posted September 19, 2012 Author Posted September 19, 2012 Again, please try to keep responses in the context of the example cited in the OP. A woman who got to truly walk a mile in both male/female shoes. Don't you think this person's opinion is more valid than a man's opinion or a woman's opinion who never has had the opportunity to experience both sides of the coin? 1
verhrzn Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 Again, please try to keep responses in the context of the example cited in the OP. A woman who got to truly walk a mile in both male/female shoes. Don't you think this person's opinion is more valid than a man's opinion or a woman's opinion who never has had the opportunity to experience both sides of the coin? NO. If nothing else, because she is a homosexual woman. She has never experienced the female side of approaching a man. She's only ever approached women. Granted, she's done it as both a man and a woman, but it means she's missing out on the other side of the heterosexual triangle. 2
Author jakelongot Posted September 19, 2012 Author Posted September 19, 2012 Yes I can dispute it, because I take on the masculine role in my interactions, and I don't consider it anywhere near as crushing or soul-wrenching or awful as guys on here (or other places like Reddit) claim. Does it suck? Sure. Is it painful? Yep. But to develop a negative attitude towards an entire gender because of it? To physically violate a person because of they aren't doing what you want them to?? At my very worst, I have not come close to contemplating these thoughts. More importantly, the existence of guys who have experienced the same dating scene (gotten shot down, rejected, etc.) and DON'T hate women suggests that it is not women who are responsible, but individual men themselves. If women were responsible, every guy who got rejected would experience those negative attitudes. Since not every man does, it logically follows that women aren't to blame. So you don't think someone's opinion who has physically dated as a man and woman is more valid than a woman who can only guess what it is like to date as a man or a man who can only guess what it is like to date as a woman? I'm more inclined to value the opinion of someone with pratical experience in both situations.
Author jakelongot Posted September 19, 2012 Author Posted September 19, 2012 NO. If nothing else, because she is a homosexual woman. She has never experienced the female side of approaching a man. She's only ever approached women. Granted, she's done it as both a man and a woman, but it means she's missing out on the other side of the heterosexual triangle. She was not gay her entire life. She certainly experienced what it was like to date a man even if now she is with a woman.
verhrzn Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 So you don't think someone's opinion who has physically dated as a man and woman is more valid than a woman who can only guess what it is like to date as a man or a man who can only guess what it is like to date as a woman? I'm more inclined to value the opinion of someone with pratical experience in both situations. As I stated in my previous post, she has never tried to date men as a woman. She has only dated women, because she's homosexual. So she HASN'T experienced all sides of the equation... she hasn't experienced what it's like to be sexually attracted to men and all the problems that brings. Furthermore, she had the social appearance of a man, but she was not, biologically, internally, a man. Inside, she still identified herself as a woman. What that means is she only experienced the social side of dating as a man... not the internal biological mechanisms of being a man. If a gay man dressed up as a woman, and tried to date men, would you claim that his experiences were the exact same as a biological, heterosexual woman?
verhrzn Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 She was not gay her entire life. She certainly experienced what it was like to date a man even if now she is with a woman. Um... read it again. She said she did date guys but she was never into them. She knew she was gay from when she was a young age. So, she's never been heterosexual. She might have gone on dates with men, but it means she never experienced the feelings for men that a heterosexual woman would.
Author jakelongot Posted September 19, 2012 Author Posted September 19, 2012 As I stated in my previous post, she has never tried to date men as a woman. She has only dated women, because she's homosexual. So she HASN'T experienced all sides of the equation... she hasn't experienced what it's like to be sexually attracted to men and all the problems that brings. Furthermore, she had the social appearance of a man, but she was not, biologically, internally, a man. Inside, she still identified herself as a woman. What that means is she only experienced the social side of dating as a man... not the internal biological mechanisms of being a man. If a gay man dressed up as a woman, and tried to date men, would you claim that his experiences were the exact same as a biological, heterosexual woman? 1. again, she has dated men in the past...just currently is gay. 2. Will a man and woman's biological reaction be the same? Of course not, but i think it is nieve to dimiss the feelings that someone who has taken on the life of a man for an entire year is feeling. Most of dating is socioligical not biological. She is not talking love and committed relationships and sex. She is talking dating...dinner, movies drinks
verhrzn Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 1. again, she has dated men in the past...just currently is gay. 2. Will a man and woman's biological reaction be the same? Of course not, but i think it is nieve to dimiss the feelings that someone who has taken on the life of a man for an entire year is feeling. Most of dating is socioligical not biological. She is not talking love and committed relationships and sex. She is talking dating...dinner, movies drinks She said herself she's ALWAYS been gay. If I went on a date with a woman, it doesn't automatically make me gay if I'm still not attracted to them. She has never been attracted to men-that's my point. Again, if a gay man dressed up as a woman, and tried to date men, would you claim that his experiences were the exact same as a biological, heterosexual woman?
Woggle Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 She said herself she's ALWAYS been gay. If I went on a date with a woman, it doesn't automatically make me gay if I'm still not attracted to them. She has never been attracted to men-that's my point. Again, if a gay man dressed up as a woman, and tried to date men, would you claim that his experiences were the exact same as a biological, heterosexual woman? Maybe so. He would at least understand how women are viewed by men just like this women learned how men are viewed by women. I never claim that women have it easy or that they don't have their own issues but I do notice in society the debate tends to be very one sided and I think many men are just sick of always being the bad guys while nobody looks at the fact that the other gender has their share of stuff as well.
verhrzn Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 Maybe so. He would at least understand how women are viewed by men just like this women learned how men are viewed by women. I never claim that women have it easy or that they don't have their own issues but I do notice in society the debate tends to be very one sided and I think many men are just sick of always being the bad guys while nobody looks at the fact that the other gender has their share of stuff as well. Go back to the thread you put in Ranting. You could give NO examples of discussions being one-sided, even on this site. I am the female version of the Nice Guy, and I get sympathy from... I'd estimate, 3 male posters on this board. The rest are in a rest to condemn me as lying, a troll, a man-hater, etc. Stop making claims like this without evidence.
Author jakelongot Posted September 19, 2012 Author Posted September 19, 2012 (edited) Go back to the thread you put in Ranting. You could give NO examples of discussions being one-sided, even on this site. I am the female version of the Nice Guy, and I get sympathy from... I'd estimate, 3 male posters on this board. The rest are in a rest to condemn me as lying, a troll, a man-hater, etc. Stop making claims like this without evidence. She is gay and therefore even though she will have more practical dating experience as a member of the opposite gender than you will ever have, her opinion is invalid? That is ridiculous. If your only argument is that she is gay and therefore her opinion doesn't count you need to do better than that. We are not talking love we are talking dating...two completely different things. It is way more sociological than biological. If she is trying to take the man's role and the woman she is with is none the wiser, is she not still experiencing the same treatment a guy would get? Edited September 19, 2012 by jakelongot
verhrzn Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 She is gay and therefore even though she will have more practical dating experience as a member of the opposite gender than you will ever have, her opinion is invalid? That is ridiculous. If your only argument is that she is gay and therefore her opinion doesn't count you need to do better than that. We are not talking love we are talking dating...two completely different things. It is way more sociological than biological. If she is trying to take the man's role and the woman she is with is none the wiser, is she not still experiencing the same treatment a guy would get? It has nothing to do with dating experience. Again, if I went on more dates with women than she did, would that make me gayer than she is? No. What I am trying to get across (and either I'm very bad at it, or you are being dense on purpose) is that she has never experienced dating from a heterosexual woman side, because she has never been a heterosexual woman.
Janesays Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 Her opinion doesn't count because we know nothing of her PRIOR mental make up outside that she's gay. She could be predispositioned towards a violent, victim mentality. This isn't a gender issue; this is a behavioral l issue. As I see it, straight people who hate or strongly dislike the opposite gender suffer from these 2 problems: 1. They have a crippling fear of rejection. 2. They are equally terrified of being alone. Being rejected isn't a big deal. I've been rejected so many times in my life that I can't even add up the past week. I've been rejected by friends, lovers, employers, clients...this list is endless. Being rejected is good for the soul. It teaches you how to accept disappointment with grace and maturity and inspires you towards self improvement. Unless, of course, you're terrified of rejection because you're emotionally stunted, ashamed of how you feel, and have an unnatural obsession with power and vulnerability. In THAT case, I can see how rejection could be more than just a bit of a bummer to you. Further, being alone is NOT a big deal. I love love love living alone, I love having my own space, I have a wonderful job, great friends, a pain in the butt brother who keeps me busy, and the company of my pets should I feel the need to get a little snuggly. Back when I was dating, I wasn't worried or bothered by the thought of 'dying alone.' Ultimately, we all die alone. Love is great, love is wonderful, but romantic love isn't the ONLY satisfying love available. Now if I couldn't stand the sound of my own breathing, I might have a problem with being alone. If I was a person who lacked imagination or hobbies or a social life, I might want to GRASP at any man in existence. But that's not me. I think rather than hating the opposite gender, some people need to take a good long hard look at THEMSELVES and figure out what is missing in their own lives that causes them to lash out at half the population. 8
Negative Nancy Posted September 19, 2012 Posted September 19, 2012 By that token, all men are also responsible for women who are bitter or disillusioned with dating. Since men also have the power to reject women (either directly, when a woman approaches them, or indirectly by not approaching certain women), then men are also to blame for women who turn into "feminazi man-haters." I get rejected by men all the freaking time, and yet if I verge even slightly into "grr guys" territory, I get an extreme beating by male posters on this site. So tell me why women are to blame for men's misogyny, and men are not to blame for women's dislike of men? More importantly; men becoming angry at being rejection suggests that women shouldn't GET to say no. That they shouldn't get to reject a guy. Why is it that women do not have a right to refuse to have sex with a man? very good post.
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