Predation

[Radagast]

I saw claims on another thread elsewhere on this forum that a woman who approaches a man with a view to starting a relationship (in that case, an affair) is "predatory". If a man approaches a woman, to start a relationship, is that also considered "predatory"? Or is it just when a woman does it?

 

As I understand the term, a predator is an animal that kills other animals. I have also heard the term applied in situations of imbalanced power, such as an adult paedophile "preying on" young children, or an unethical psychologist "preying on" his clients, but in a situation of two healthy, consenting adults not linked in any relationship involving power, how is this term being understood - or is it simply being used as a put-down to signal that one person feels threatened by another?

[Radagast]

there most certainly can be a 'predator/prey" situation ( and the semantics or dictionary definition of "predatory" isn't all that important when used in a particular context with a colloquial meaning)...

 

think of it this way...reverse the situation and see how many times women express hurt and anger over the way a man they were in a relationship treated them...they claim he is a "predator" ( or jerk, or use another adjective that is much more vulgar:laugh:)....for whatever reason, they were vulnerable to someone like that, and the man seemed to know just what words to say to "lure" them in...

 

now flip that situation around...is there any reason why a man could not also be in a vulnerable place in his life ( or just vulnerable in general) and a woman may well know what words to use to "lure" him in? Some use other "lures" than words ( sex seems to be a pretty common one)

 

we are all human beings, all vulnerable to certain things and we all have issues in our lives. while there may not be an imbalance of power in every situation of a predatory nature, there are some people, both men and women, who seem to be able to somehow zero in on people in that place in their lives...then also tend to take so much more from a relationship than they ever give back ( perhaps, at that point, the word "parasite" would be a much better descriptive term)

of course this does not excuse anyone's actions nor negate their responsibility for the choices they made...but it may explain them.

 

Your reply is predicated on the notion of explicit vulnerability - either claimed by the "victim" in retrospect, or somehow sensed by the "predator" like a shark sniffing blood in water. Yet the situation referred to in the post in question (am I allowed to link?) contained no such claim. It was simply one poster (a man) labelling another poster (a woman) predatory since she had approached another man with a view to starting a relationship. Vulnerability was not mentioned - if anything, it was excluded by the description that the woman poster had given of the situation. So the argument about "vulnerability" can't be said to apply in this situation, yet that (male) poster clearly found the situation to be predatory, as did the stampede of other posters who picked up on that comment. Not one contested the notion of predation, or questioned its applicability in that context. They all seemed quite happy to have it described as such.

 

Which is what I'm really asking - what about that or similar situations makes them "predatory"? Is it simply because a woman made a sexual / relationship approach?

[beenburned]

In terms of affairs, it simply means a person who deliberately seeks out people they know are already married for the express purpose of sex.(especially if they have a life time habit of this same behavior)

 

All of my H's OW approached him and told him they wanted sex with him.

When he hesitated they started begging and pleading with him, trying to make him feel guilty for turning them down. Some of them even called him pu***whipped, hoping to make him mad enough to prove them wrong.

 

Some OW/OM even go to lenghts of stalking the person that keeps turning them down.

[mercy]

....but in a situation of two healthy, consenting adults not linked in any relationship involving power....

 

Affairs never involve two people. Affairs involve three people. Healthy? Someone is going to be very unhealthy when dd comes.

 

When has lying and being deceitful ever been considered healthy?

[KathyM]

I think affairs are often predatory. Either the married person preys off of the sympathies of the OW/OM by complaining how bad their marriage is in an attempt to gain sympathy in order to seduce the OW/OM, or the OW/OM pursues the married person who had no interest, enticing him/her to be with them, criticizing their spouse, their marriage, and bombarding him/her with attention/interest until the married person gives in to the temptation. I think that is often the case in affairs--one is the pursuer/seducer (either the married person or the OW/OM) that gets the AP to do something he didn't want but was talked into. I'd certainly say that my sister, at 17 years old, was preyed upon by a married man who was 32, when he bombarded her with attention and compliments in order to seduce her, and she was naive enough at that age to be talked into an affair.

[Radagast]

Absolutely someone can have a "predatory" nature. One can try to dress it up with all kinds of semantics and claims that everyone has their own mind and can think for themselves (and yes, they can), but that doesn't remove the other person's characterized behavior.

 

So how then would you "charaterize" predatory behaviour? Particularly in the context outlined here, of one person wishing to begin a relationship with another?

[Radagast]

I can't find the post you are referring to. Can you please tell me where to find it, as if you wish to discuss a particular situation, t may be helpful to know the specifics.

 

The posts have since been deleted. The context a thread asking how people's affairs started. Two women on that thread posted that they asked the man for a sexual encounter / relationship. This led to accusations of predation. In neither case did the women state that they "preyed on" the men, nor that the men were vulnerable, nor that the men were manipulated or groomed into agreement. In fact it appears from what was written that both women were very upfront about what they wanted, and presumably both men agreed or the encounters and subsequent relationships would not have taken place.

 

The point of this thread wasn't to discuss the deleted posts, or the specifics of those situations. The point of this thread was to try to understand why so many posters characterised the behaviour of a woman approaching a man for sex was predatory.

 

Was it because they were women, making the approach, and not men?

 

Was it because the men were married - in which case, is any single person who approaches a person they know to be married for the purposes of sex "predatory", and why is that seen to be predatory?

 

Was it based on some kind of assumption that any married person who agrees to have an affair when approached by a single person must in some way have been oozing vulnerability?

 

If a married person approaches a single person for the purposes of sex, is the married person then the "predator"?

 

I suppose what I am getting at, is, why is what would be seen as perfectly normal behaviour between consenting adults deemed to be "predatory" (that is, dysfunctional in involving a more powerful person "preying upon" a less powerful person in an unhealthy way) simply because one of those people happens to be married to someone else?

 

Or is it a gendered issue - if a single man approached a married woman for sex and she agreed, that would not be regarded as predation, but when a single woman approaches a married man for sex, then it is?

 

I'm finding the assumptions behind this concept of predation really difficult to understand. In my worldview, where you have two freely consenting, informed adults agreeing to a sexual encounter of whatever description or duration, there is no predation unless there are other power dynamics at play (one reports to the other, for example, or one provides psychological services to the other, or one is in some position of power over the other).

[Radagast]

I think affairs are often predatory. Either the married person preys off of the sympathies of the OW/OM by complaining how bad their marriage is in an attempt to gain sympathy in order to seduce the OW/OM, or the OW/OM pursues the married person who had no interest, enticing him/her to be with them, criticizing their spouse, their marriage, and bombarding him/her with attention/interest until the married person gives in to the temptation. I think that is often the case in affairs--one is the pursuer/seducer (either the married person or the OW/OM) that gets the AP to do something he didn't want but was talked into. I'd certainly say that my sister, at 17 years old, was preyed upon by a married man who was 32, when he bombarded her with attention and compliments in order to seduce her, and she was naive enough at that age to be talked into an affair.

 

I can see that the situations you describe here can be seen as analogous to "grooming" and that manipulation and deception is at play to convince the "reluctant" party to engage, and that this can be interpreted as predatory behaviour.

 

The context in which the assertion was made though did not involve grooming, or manipulation, or deception. It involved single women approaching married men for sex quite directly. There were no allegations of reluctance or persuasion in the examples that prompted my posting this thread, which is perhaps why I am struggling to understand why so many people saw it as "predatory".

[Radagast]

In terms of affairs, it simply means a person who deliberately seeks out people they know are already married for the express purpose of sex.(especially if they have a life time habit of this same behavior)

 

All of my H's OW approached him and told him they wanted sex with him.

When he hesitated they started begging and pleading with him, trying to make him feel guilty for turning them down. Some of them even called him pu***whipped, hoping to make him mad enough to prove them wrong.

 

Some OW/OM even go to lenghts of stalking the person that keeps turning them down.

 

Any healthy consenting adult seeking out any other healthy consenting adult who agrees without manipulation, deception or "grooming" is a predator exactly how? I can understand that you ascribe predation to those women who "begged and pleaded" your reluctant (or "hesitant") husband as a way to absolve him of responsibility, although I do not agree with that characterisation (as a former unfaithful spouse I strongly reject any suggestion that I was "preyed upon" like some weak or defenceless creature. I was a fully responsible adult who freely consented to what I engaged in, and I take responsibility for my choices rather than hiding behind the skirts of some evil seductress with magical ladybits who stole my free will and made me do it) I can see that if wheedling or manipulation is involved rather than freely given consent, an argument could be made to suggest that there was some emotional coercion and thus a "victim".

 

What I can't understand is how an entire category of people who use no coercion, no deception, no manipulation or grooming, who on the contrary are honest and upfront about their intentions, who approach people who are not their juniors, not beholden to them in any power dynamic, not compromised intellectually or emotionally preventing them from giving informed consent, etc are branded as "predators" for doing exactly what other healthy adults do in other relationships - simply because one partner is married to someone else.

[Radagast]

Affairs never involve two people.

 

Mine did. To be honest, I've always found the concept of a menage a trois to be a little terrifying. I'm very much a one-woman man.

[2sure]

Ive used the term predator when describing some MM looking for affairs.

Mainly serial cheaters or those that take much more than they give.

 

I believe that many times when a woman enters into an affair with a man like that...she does so because she has vulnerabilities that make her accept less than she really wants or believe things that clearly are not true or healthy.

 

I think that the type of cheater I described becomes talented at finding women with these types of vulnerabilities and preys on them specifically.

 

Now that I think about it...I suppose the same could be true reversing the roles of the genders.

 

And I get what youre saying that OW are nt children, they are thinking adults making their own choices. But I very strongly think that many affairs begin when OW is at a vulnerable time in her life and that she is being taken advantage of knowingly.

[Radagast]

There are people who treat relationships like that...they often don't come right out and make their intentions known right at the start, but rather they act in a calculating way to get their needs met, don't think about the ramifications of the actions as long as they benefit themselves, and all too often don't take "no" for an answer.

 

most people aren't like that...but there are some who are

 

Agreed. But this situation was the converse, where they explicitly made their intentions known. Based on the information provided, there was no manipulation or deception. They were upfront about what they wanted and their partners consented freely. I'm struggling to see where predation comes in.

[Radagast]

Ive used the term predator when describing some MM looking for affairs.

Mainly serial cheaters or those that take much more than they give.

 

I believe that many times when a woman enters into an affair with a man like that...she does so because she has vulnerabilities that make her accept less than she really wants or believe things that clearly are not true or healthy.

 

I think that the type of cheater I described becomes talented at finding women with these types of vulnerabilities and preys on them specifically.

 

Now that I think about it...I suppose the same could be true reversing the roles of the genders.

 

And I get what youre saying that OW are nt children, they are thinking adults making their own choices. But I very strongly think that many affairs begin when OW is at a vulnerable time in her life and that she is being taken advantage of knowingly.

 

While I don't agree with your characterisation of such relationships as predatory (since I ascribe free will and the responsibility that goes with it to healthy adults, unless specific "mitigating circumstances" exist), I do understand the reasoning behind this argument.

 

What I don't understand, and am seeking to understand through this thread, is the situation outlined earlier. Where an emotionally healthy single woman approaches an emotionally healthy married man with no manipulation or deception and asks him directly for sex, adult to adult. What is the reasoning behind describing that behaviour as "predatory"?

[Radagast]

I don't think we have to define it for any specific instance. I'll let Merriam Webster give us the definition:

 

Definition of PREDATORY

 

1

a : of, relating to, or practicing plunder, pillage, or rapine

b : inclined or intended to injure or exploit others for personal gain or profit <predatory pricing practices>

 

2

: living by predation : predaceous; also : adapted to predation

 

I would say 1b is appropriate for what it appears you are discussing.

 

And I am disinclined to further discuss this as I see no point in it. My point was made as I see it, and no amount of discussion will change my mind. Others may be able to be swayed, however.

 

So a woman approaching a man for sex is seeking personal gain at the expense of injuring his dignity, since he didn't make the approach? I'm not following the reasoning. If he is consenting freely, adult to adult, how is he being injured or exploited? He is not a child. If he wanted to, he could say no, with no risk of personal loss, misfortune or physical harm, as I've myself done many times. I have never been approached by a woman who wanted to have sex with me and felt that I was compelled to agree.

 

Nor would I equate seduction with "intention to injure or exploit others for personal gain or profit" unless one holds a very mercenary view of sex. To me sex is about mutual pleasure, mutual gain, and not about one gaining and the other losing. I cannot begin to understand what might lead someone to think otherwise, unless they had suffered dreadful sexual abuse in their lives.

 

I'm don't understand the comment about "being swayed", nor the "I don't want to participate anymore" comment. As with all other threads on this forum, people are free to participate or not at will, no one is under any obligation. Nor is this thread aimed at proselytising anyone to any point of view, which I'm guessing is what the "being swayed" comment refers to. It is a genuine attempt to understand a line of reasoning that seems entirely opaque to me but is clearly shared by many other members. There are no prizes for participating nor adverse consequences for not.

[beenburned]

There are many people who prey solely on married people.

 

They view it as a conquest to get the married person to cheat on their spouse. It makes them feel special to think they have gotten one over on the BS.

 

There are many reasons some prefer MM/MW. Some have commitment phobias and see married people as not putting pressure on them.

 

It is all about their egos and measuring their self worth by how many conquests they can obtain. Most are serial cheaters.

 

There are several OW here that have posted about their reasons- skylarblue comes to mind. I think they both posted in the thread you are referring to that got locked.

[Radagast]

while i can't speak about their experiences, as I wasn't there, I find it pretty hard to imagine someone going up to someone else they didn't know very well( or at all) and saying flat out "let's have sex"...

 

Seems pretty common among my son's age group.

 

 

there's usually a work up to that point...how long did it take them for the sex to happen? was it right away or did it take a while to get to that point? If it took a while, what was said in the interim?

 

I've had a number of women approach me for sex over the years of my previous marriage. I'm not aware that I was sending out any signals, and I turned all of those women (except my current wife) down promptly, as I genuinely had no interest. Most were women I knew only very slightly, in a professional context, and there had been no "inappropriate" contact or discussion preceding the approach. In many cases there was not even alcohol involved, and the approaches were made in completely unexpected contexts such as passing each other in the passage at work, or standing in the queue at a coffee outlet, or after a presentation. One of these women has subsequently become a good friend of mine and my wife's, and my wife is mystified why I turned this woman down as she is attractive, fun and a lovely person. But I was not interested in having an affair and have always seen this woman as a professional contact and now friend, rather than considered her in any sexual way. When my wife asked her about the proposition, she said that I looked very unhappy with my wife, she herself had been going through a rough patch in her own marriage, and she thought I might be open to the idea.

 

With my current wife, our previous contact had also been entirely professional. We met up again at a conference, alcohol was involved, and I was at a stage in my marriage where I was obviously more open to the idea since I agreed. And of course I found her (still do) very desirable, which helps.

 

it's an unfortunate fact that there will always be vulnerable people, and others who will prey on that vulnerability to have their needs met. If a woman can be "vulnerable" then why can't a man?

 

I've never claimed a man cannot be vulnerable. Most people have experienced vulnerability in their lives. But I do not believe vulnerability (among adults) deprives you of agency unless the circumstances are extreme, and nor do I believe that the average married man being approached by the average single woman for sex constitutes a predator preying upon the vulnerable, as was the assumption behind the responses on that thread (since deleted). Unless one is claiming that being married automatically makes a man vulnerable to approaches from other women, which as a happily married man I would certainly refute from my own experience!

[Radagast]

There are many people who prey solely on married people.

 

They view it as a conquest to get the married person to cheat on their spouse. It makes them feel special to think they have gotten one over on the BS.

 

There are many reasons some prefer MM/MW. Some have commitment phobias and see married people as not putting pressure on them.

 

It is all about their egos and measuring their self worth by how many conquests they can obtain. Most are serial cheaters.

 

There are several OW here that have posted about their reasons- skylarblue comes to mind. I think they both posted in the thread you are referring to that got locked.

 

I think we are referring to different threads, and different posters here. There was no mention in the thread or posts I was referring to about "preying solely on married people". People were asked how their affairs had started, and some responded. None said they were "serial cheaters" or that their affairs were about conquest or ego, in fact from the posts themselves it would seem that the reverse was true, that the approaches were motivated by attraction to the man in question.

[beenburned]

Rad,

 

The thread I was thinking of is in the infidelity section, dated August 27, titled "the attraction of a MM".

 

Skylarblue's post is on page 3. But she was not the only OW that told why they were attracted to MM.

[2sure]

What I don't understand, and am seeking to understand through this thread, is the situation outlined earlier. Where an emotionally healthy single woman approaches an emotionally healthy married man with no manipulation or deception and asks him directly for sex, adult to adult. What is the reasoning behind describing that behaviour as "predatory"?

 

Ah. I do understand your question now. I havent come across that situation too much ...OR Im just convinced that a woman who does that is not emotionally healthy. Either way, although I havent used the term to describe such a situation....If we keep to the same predator - victim idea - There is a victim, certainly - the BS. But that doesnt work.

How about : An emotionally healthy woman who just has a taste for the "forbidden fruit" that is MM & specifically persues only them? Sounds like a predator to me...but then what exactly is MMs role? Victim? I think not.