Another marriage rant...but not quite sexless!

[JamesM]

Here goes...and thanks for reading. Some of you may still know me even though it has been a few months since I posted regularly.

 

I cannot say that I am in a sexless marriage because that IMO means no sex. But I can say that I am in a marriage that lacks intimate sex. I can also say that sex occurs very infrequently and to the point that many would consider it sexless.

 

I became a member on LS back in 2005 when things were quite bad in our marriage in a number of ways. Yet in many ways, it was good. I don't remember how often we had sex, but it was very rare. And when we did, she did it for me. There came a point that she thought that separate bedrooms might be a good idea. That "talk" happened in the night when I reached over for some intimacy. (I will define later what I like about "sex" and it isn't just intercourse). So after being a a couple of forums, I came close to getting involved with someone. That scared me, and I came to the realization that I might be able to do something after I picked up a book about sexless marriages and women with low libidos. This book gave a list of reasons why a woman (or man) may have a low libido. I began researching each one to see if it applied.

 

I knew that my wife had fibromyalgia and dealt with pain off and on...some days were great and others poor. But she works full time and takes meds that reduce the pain significantly. I also knew that she was sexually abused for a length of time as a child and had gone through counseling for this. But this was "solved" and our sex life was good throughout the first half of our marriage.

 

As a result of my research, I became a member here. That was a good result! As I went through all of the list, I could check off some and look into others. Yes, I have tried over and over romantic dinners and all of the "easy" things.

 

Anyhow, one day in April 2006, I confronted her about if she would every change. This was after a med change (a result of my research) that improved her pain and overall health. This was quite a talk. That sparked a sudden change in her attitude towards sex and we began having it weekly for a few months. Then it slacked off to a couple of times a month and then less with time. It was not that she had sex for me, but she had orgasms and enjoyed it herself. I was told by WWIU that this may not last. It was hard to believe, but she ended up being correct.

 

I remember a "talk" we had in April 2009 when my wife said, "If sex means that much to you, then you may have to find it elsewhere." That hurt and surprised me, but yes, it did get me thinking.

 

Fast forward to now During that fast forward, sex went back to what it was before 2006, and my resentment built up. From having sex around 40 times a year (I did count a couple of times in our early years) in the first decade of marriage to twice this year, it has been quite a change. It has been difficult for me, because my definition of sex is NOT the "climax" of me being satisfied, but my greatest enjoyment has always been when she gets uncontrollably satisfied and enjoys it. So even though we have had sex a total of ten times over the past almost 33 months (with six in the first twelve and three in the next twelve and two in the past eight months), they have been her simply satisfying me. The "intimate sex which was mutually enjoyed" ended back in 2006. While I appreciate her gesture that many times has been reluctant, I still feel an empty hole. I understand that she has pain, but I also know that she certainly can still enjoy sex and I know for a fact that her pain is not as bad as she makes it out to be. And it is difficult knowing that she no longer tries to enjoy it and rarely even wants to try to satisfy me. Despite the fact she knows how important the cuddling, kissing, and foreplay is to me, she doesn't even attempt to do what she can. Every once in a blue moon, she can be different...even if it doesn't lead to sex.

 

A couple of weeks ago, she came out of the bathroom and shoved me back on the bed. She began passionately kissing me, and said, "I just want you to know that if I had to do it all over again, I would still choose you." This after 22 years of marriage...this does make me feel good. And so we were kissing and she could tell that I was excited. Now mind you, I didn't expect anything, because the kids were just outside of the room. (In fact, one shut the door so we could have privacy! ). She said after a few minutes when she could see I was really enjoying it, "Now don't get too excited...everything is turned off down there." And poof! I didn't say anything, but the kissing did kinda end.

 

She has said that before that "everything is shut down" like it can never be turned on and is out of her control. I think that is incorrect. It CAN be turned on and she MUST try. I can't believe she doesn't realize how much this hurts me.

 

So I ranted. I have learned of ways to reduce the resentment. They may not be the best ways for some, but they have definitely helped me. I also REALLY want to stay because I do want the two of us together while we raise our children. I have no doubts that I will stay despite the lack of intimacy. I know this has an impact on our I feel towards her. It has made me less interested in hugging and kissing her, because I know that for the most part, she doesn't enjoy kissing like I do. It has made me less complimentary to her. And it has made me feel less close to her.

 

Well, what the future holds...I don't know. I feel sad when I see couples kissing. It is a happy/depressing feeling I get when I watch a movie with a good romance, and I see what could be but isn't.

 

The rant is not because I have a wife who CAN'T have sex, but it is because I am in a marriage with someone who CAN but doesn't see the need or no longer wants sex. It is because we no longer have that mutually satisfying and pleasurable experience at all.

 

While I truly have NO interest in an affair, I long for that connection with someone and realize that it may never happen with my wife...and yet I still have a hope that it may. But even still as I said before, we have a few years (ten approx) of raising children and this is my happiness (and frustration and stress sometimes! ) for now.

 

The end! Thanks...if you made it here and even a greater appreciation if you give feedback.

[Scrivdog]

There it is, Ace. Simply can't be clearer now. Gotta give her kudos for telling it how it is.

 

You now sound like a man saying goodbye to his hopes for marital sex. You're also confessing to us in advance that you're goint to have yourself an affair.

 

Hey, trust me on this. That's really your best option. Let's review, shall we?

 

The only choices she's given you are:

 

1) Celibacy

2) Affair

3) Hookers

4) Divorce

 

There is no option 5. She told you as clearly as any woman could that there will be NO SEX for you in this marriage. It ain't happening. Done.

 

Option one isn't worth discussing. Can we agree on that?

 

The "honorable" option here is divorce (4). But personally I don't agree with that if you have kids. Especially young ones. They need you around and they don't need to give a rat's ass what you and your wife's sexual life is like. I say that needs to be the last option and only if she's the one who asks for it.

 

So that leaves hookers and affairs. I've done both. I recommend that you visit one or two. Not streetwalkers, but higher end call girls. First of all it'll get your head right out of your ass when you realize what good sex is like again. Secondly, it'll ease you into the mindset of having an affair later on.

 

If you have an affair, try to have it with a single woman. Married women tend to screw things up and they let the husband find out. You don't need that much drama. On the other hand, the single woman is eventually going to want you all for herself.

 

Just don't flaunt it to the wife and maybe she won't care. She's probably not a stupid woman. So she knows you'll be getting some strange on the side.

 

Good luck to you. Seriously.

[Mr. Lucky]

James:

 

As someone who also hasn't posted much in recent months, I wonder what led you to post this today? I don't see any change in the situation - and certainly no progress - from your posts over the last several years. Are you saying that you're more frustrated and less tolerant of your sexless condition today?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Scrivdog]

James:

 

As someone who also hasn't posted much in recent months, I wonder what led you to post this today? I don't see any change in the situation - and certainly no progress - from your posts over the last several years. Are you saying that you're more frustrated and less tolerant of your sexless condition today?

 

Mr. Lucky

Read his post again. He's done.

[carhill]

James, I'd like to express my sympathies for your situation, my respect for your forthrightness and honesty, and my appreciation for all the times I have used your 'If you want sex, you'll have to get it somewhere else' thread as advice for other posters experiencing low-sex or no-sex relationships.

 

No one knows what the future will bring. Best wishes to you along your path.

Edited September 10, 2012 by carhill
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[Mr. Lucky]

Read his post again. He's done.

Huh? Here's what he said:

While I truly have NO interest in an affair, I long for that connection with someone and realize that it may never happen with my wife...and yet I still have a hope that it may. But even still as I said before, we have a few years (ten approx) of raising children and this is my happiness (and frustration and stress sometimes! ) for now.

Seems like the opposite of "done" as he's committed to a decade or more of keeping the family unit together. From your list, he seems to have chosen (semi) celibacy...

 

Mr. Lucky

[AnotherRound]

Here goes...and thanks for reading. Some of you may still know me even though it has been a few months since I posted regularly.

 

I cannot say that I am in a sexless marriage because that IMO means no sex. But I can say that I am in a marriage that lacks intimate sex. I can also say that sex occurs very infrequently and to the point that many would consider it sexless.

 

I became a member on LS back in 2005 when things were quite bad in our marriage in a number of ways. Yet in many ways, it was good. I don't remember how often we had sex, but it was very rare. And when we did, she did it for me. There came a point that she thought that separate bedrooms might be a good idea. That "talk" happened in the night when I reached over for some intimacy. (I will define later what I like about "sex" and it isn't just intercourse). So after being a a couple of forums, I came close to getting involved with someone. That scared me, and I came to the realization that I might be able to do something after I picked up a book about sexless marriages and women with low libidos. This book gave a list of reasons why a woman (or man) may have a low libido. I began researching each one to see if it applied.

 

I knew that my wife had fibromyalgia and dealt with pain off and on...some days were great and others poor. But she works full time and takes meds that reduce the pain significantly. I also knew that she was sexually abused for a length of time as a child and had gone through counseling for this. But this was "solved" and our sex life was good throughout the first half of our marriage.

 

As a result of my research, I became a member here. That was a good result! As I went through all of the list, I could check off some and look into others. Yes, I have tried over and over romantic dinners and all of the "easy" things.

 

Anyhow, one day in April 2006, I confronted her about if she would every change. This was after a med change (a result of my research) that improved her pain and overall health. This was quite a talk. That sparked a sudden change in her attitude towards sex and we began having it weekly for a few months. Then it slacked off to a couple of times a month and then less with time. It was not that she had sex for me, but she had orgasms and enjoyed it herself. I was told by WWIU that this may not last. It was hard to believe, but she ended up being correct.

 

I remember a "talk" we had in April 2009 when my wife said, "If sex means that much to you, then you may have to find it elsewhere." That hurt and surprised me, but yes, it did get me thinking.

 

Fast forward to now During that fast forward, sex went back to what it was before 2006, and my resentment built up. From having sex around 40 times a year (I did count a couple of times in our early years) in the first decade of marriage to twice this year, it has been quite a change. It has been difficult for me, because my definition of sex is NOT the "climax" of me being satisfied, but my greatest enjoyment has always been when she gets uncontrollably satisfied and enjoys it. So even though we have had sex a total of ten times over the past almost 33 months (with six in the first twelve and three in the next twelve and two in the past eight months), they have been her simply satisfying me. The "intimate sex which was mutually enjoyed" ended back in 2006. While I appreciate her gesture that many times has been reluctant, I still feel an empty hole. I understand that she has pain, but I also know that she certainly can still enjoy sex and I know for a fact that her pain is not as bad as she makes it out to be. And it is difficult knowing that she no longer tries to enjoy it and rarely even wants to try to satisfy me. Despite the fact she knows how important the cuddling, kissing, and foreplay is to me, she doesn't even attempt to do what she can. Every once in a blue moon, she can be different...even if it doesn't lead to sex.

 

A couple of weeks ago, she came out of the bathroom and shoved me back on the bed. She began passionately kissing me, and said, "I just want you to know that if I had to do it all over again, I would still choose you." This after 22 years of marriage...this does make me feel good. And so we were kissing and she could tell that I was excited. Now mind you, I didn't expect anything, because the kids were just outside of the room. (In fact, one shut the door so we could have privacy! ). She said after a few minutes when she could see I was really enjoying it, "Now don't get too excited...everything is turned off down there." And poof! I didn't say anything, but the kissing did kinda end.

 

She has said that before that "everything is shut down" like it can never be turned on and is out of her control. I think that is incorrect. It CAN be turned on and she MUST try. I can't believe she doesn't realize how much this hurts me.

 

So I ranted. I have learned of ways to reduce the resentment. They may not be the best ways for some, but they have definitely helped me. I also REALLY want to stay because I do want the two of us together while we raise our children. I have no doubts that I will stay despite the lack of intimacy. I know this has an impact on our I feel towards her. It has made me less interested in hugging and kissing her, because I know that for the most part, she doesn't enjoy kissing like I do. It has made me less complimentary to her. And it has made me feel less close to her.

 

Well, what the future holds...I don't know. I feel sad when I see couples kissing. It is a happy/depressing feeling I get when I watch a movie with a good romance, and I see what could be but isn't.

 

The rant is not because I have a wife who CAN'T have sex, but it is because I am in a marriage with someone who CAN but doesn't see the need or no longer wants sex. It is because we no longer have that mutually satisfying and pleasurable experience at all.

 

While I truly have NO interest in an affair, I long for that connection with someone and realize that it may never happen with my wife...and yet I still have a hope that it may. But even still as I said before, we have a few years (ten approx) of raising children and this is my happiness (and frustration and stress sometimes! ) for now.

 

The end! Thanks...if you made it here and even a greater appreciation if you give feedback.

 

I have never understood this phenomena. Is this common as women age? You don't sound "older" since you have young children? And, it seems that you and your wife are still connected on some level emotionally. And I'm not sure why she was "teasing" you and then shut it down? Confusing.

 

Here's the thing, biologically, most (not all) men and women view "intimacy" a little differently. Women often have to feel emotionally connected to engage in the act, and men often have to engage in the act to feel emotionally connected. Almost like we are set up for failure from the get go. I wouldn't advise an A, as an exOW, I can honestly say, it is only a band aid, causes more issues than you already had, and can end a LOT nastier than just getting a divorce. I don't agree that people should stay in marriages for the children, as it does them no favors in the long run.

 

If you are already resentful, that is only going to build. If she is picking up on that, and feeling like you aren't connected "simply" (in her mind) bc you aren't having sex, she will be resentful. Then, it becomes this vicious cycle of resentment and hurt that eventually, inevitably, becomes irreparable.

 

I think the hardest thing to do is divorce, especially if there are children. But honestly, I don't know if this is a biological thing or what. If ALL, or even MOST, women lose their libido as they age, then I would say, stay, bc obvs, it's just nature. But I don't think it is nature (I could be wrong, I've never researched or studied it). But I'm a woman in my late 30s, and I take some meds even that are supposed to lower my libido, and I still have a very strong sex drive. I don't, however, have children that I'm raising, but I do have everything else, by myself (house, bills, jobs, etc.), and I'm never too tired or too anything. Well, maybe not "never", but very rarely am I not interested in having some sexual intimacy. Especially if it is with someone that I am in love with.

 

So, I don't really know if I'm answering anything, maybe just offering another perspective. The hooker thing would scare me a little, and I don't know, would you feel okay after that? Are there any ways that she could be involved in a more minimal manner, but you still enjoy it? Or, is she just truly not interested? And, I do hear this often from married men, but again, I've never understood it. ????

[Eve]

Have you tried a sex therapist? That's what I would do. I hear they can be very helpful in regards to restoring intimacy.

 

If you haven't tried one. Do it.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[tommyr]

James,

Remember me from waaay back? I was in the same sexless-marriage boat as you.

But not anymore: still married, same wife, averaging sex 2X per week for the past 6 years or so. And we're both pretty happy with everything. Not perfect, but a great marriage in which both partners care about the other's needs.

 

So please take my advice: you have NOT yet had "the talk". Sure you've done a LOT of talking, but you have not had THE TALK. Now repeat after me: I, James, have NOT YET HAD THE TALK.

 

The defining element of THE TALK which you've failed to deliver: you must make it crystal clear to her that you will not remain celibate in a sexless marriage. Instead of putting this out there for her in plain black/white, you've given her a blurry grey message about how you would be much happier with more sex. James, she does NOT care about that!! She MIGHT care that you will end the marriage and/or get a new girlfriend, but she DOES NOT CARE about your sexual happiness. She needs to know that her (presumably) cozy life today is a package deal that must include regular sex with James.

 

I had THE TALK with my wife 6 years ago. I did not "threaten" her into having sex with me. That's the last thing I would want! I did however completely burst her bubble that our marriage would remain sexless (twice or thrice per year). She had a choice to make: regular sex with her husband, or her life was gonna change in a major way. Our kids would still have 2 loving parents, just their now dad would be a whole lot happier with a new sex partner (with or without the wife).

 

Looking back, I can say without any doubt, I would STILL be very unhappy in a sexless marriage just like James. I am glad I had THE TALK. I had no way to know the outcome, and I am very glad she chose an intimate marriage with me versus my alternatives. But even if she instead chose to let me go (meaning marriage over, or an open marriage) then I would still be waaaaay better off than 6 more years of sexless marriage.

[JamesM]

T

You now sound like a man saying goodbye to his hopes for marital sex. You're also confessing to us in advance that you're goint to have yourself an affair.

 

Hey, trust me on this. That's really your best option. Let's review, shall we?

 

The only choices she's given you are:

 

1) Celibacy

2) Affair

3) Hookers

4) Divorce

 

There is no option 5. She told you as clearly as any woman could that there will be NO SEX for you in this marriage. It ain't happening. Done.

 

Option one isn't worth discussing. Can we agree on that?

 

The "honorable" option here is divorce (4). But personally I don't agree with that if you have kids. Especially young ones.

 

So that leaves hookers and affairs. I've done both. I recommend that you visit one or two. Not streetwalkers, but higher end call girls. First of all it'll get your head right out of your ass when you realize what good sex is like again. Secondly, it'll ease you into the mindset of having an affair later on.

 

 

 

Good luck to you. Seriously.

 

I haven't said good bye to marital sex just yet. But it IS getting close. I am not interested in celibacy or divorce. And you actually listed some good points. Kids do NOT care and in fact, parents having sex...ewww!

 

Escorts are a viable option which can be expensive. I admit that I have given a couple a visit, but find that what I want is not to be found (or rarely to be found) with someone who wants my money and may not enjoy sex. Some do and those could fill that empty hole.

 

Oddly, sometimes having a massage and feeling a woman compassionately touch me with her hands can relieve some of that "hunger" for a woman's touch. Kinda sad, but yet it is helpful and cheaper than an escort.

 

Thank you. Seriously.

 

James:

 

As someone who also hasn't posted much in recent months, I wonder what led you to post this today? I don't see any change in the situation - and certainly no progress - from your posts over the last several years. Are you saying that you're more frustrated and less tolerant of your sexless condition today?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Yes. Sometimes I just need to vent. And your next post is correct. I am not done completely with the idea that sex may still get better. But I don't have much hope.

 

James, I'd like to express my sympathies for your situation, my respect for your forthrightness and honesty, and my appreciation for all the times I have used your 'If you want sex, you'll have to get it somewhere else' thread as advice for other posters experiencing low-sex or no-sex relationships.

 

No one knows what the future will bring. Best wishes to you along your path.

 

carhill, thank you very much for your kind words. I am an optimist despite how it looks today. I don't know how, but I do think it will get better...with or without my wife. I still want it to be better with my wife, because I realized in more recent months how much my children mean to me. They deserve the best possible upbringing and I will try to do the best with the abilities that were or were not given to me.

 

I have never understood this phenomena. Is this common as women age? You don't sound "older" since you have young children? And, it seems that you and your wife are still connected on some level emotionally. And I'm not sure why she was "teasing" you and then shut it down? Confusing.

 

So, I don't really know if I'm answering anything, maybe just offering another perspective. The hooker thing would scare me a little, and I don't know, would you feel okay after that? Are there any ways that she could be involved in a more minimal manner, but you still enjoy it? Or, is she just truly not interested? And, I do hear this often from married men, but again, I've never understood it. ????

 

I don't think SHE thinks she was teasing me at all. She simply was expressing her feelings to me as they came to her. She doesn't connect sex to love and perhaps that could be from her past traumatic experiences with abuse. Or it could be a "normal" thing that women have.

 

I don't consider myself older either, but I am 48. Our kids are almost all teens.

 

I know this will get me flamed at some point, but I could do the escort thing and have. But in most cases from what I have experienced or from reading what others have experienced, this will not fill the huger I have. Besides, the STD factor does scare me enough that I cannot freely enjoy this completely.

 

The huge irony in this situation typically being that if a woman like James's wife ever decides to have an affair, her libido invariably goes through the roof as she does it every which way and 24/7/365 with the affair partner.

 

She's just a manipulative tease and probably has been for pretty much the entire relationship. Earlier in the marriage the frequency was a little bit higher (but still way too low) because at that time she probably figured James might still leave the marriage if she zeroed out the sex. In other words at all times, she CALCULATED exactly how much sex she was giving to James--and it's always been just enough to keep him from making the final decision to leave her.

 

"I just want you to know that if I had to do it all over again, I would still choose you."

 

Reading that, the thought that struck me was "This is what a woman who has just ended an affair might say to her husband." The second thought that occurred to me is that James should have responded: "YOU still would have chosen me if we had to do this all over again? What did I ever do to you to deserve that kind of fate, a second time around?"

 

I am certain that if she was with a new man, then her libido would go back up...for a time. This is normal with all people. It doesn't feel good to know that another man could do better with her, but honestly, if she were happier, then perhaps I could accept it. However, I don't agree with your assessment that she just got out of an affair. Whether she has had one in the past...it is a good question, but whenever I have looked into all angles, I come up with nothing that could link her to one. But it would almost be a relief to find out that she did so that I could have more answers.

 

She is not a tease by nature and has never been that way. She doesn't calculate how much sex we have to keep me. She is an impulsive person in so many ways. If she feels like sex, then she wants it. If she feels like it and thinks it will be a good idea later at night when we have time, then she will say so. But later that idea may no longer be good, so I have learned never to plan it.

 

Our sex life with three times a month as an average in earlier years....I was fine with that. I am a sexual person but not really more than average. Having sex once a week is more than enough for me. In fact, it could be too much. That has always been my feeling.

 

As for choosing me and me choosing her, I can say from the bottom of my heart, I still love her and enjoy being with her. I know that she enjoys being with me. We take time to have lunch together occasionally. And when we get out alone, we do enjoy it. As other parents know, this just doesn't happen as much as we would like.

 

Have you tried a sex therapist? That's what I would do. I hear they can be very helpful in regards to restoring intimacy.

 

If you haven't tried one. Do it.

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

It could be, and no, we haven't. But the problem is...I miss sex. She doesn't. Why does she need to see a sex therapist? In her opinion, I am guessing that she would think it would be better that I see a priest and learn to be celibate! Seriously though, she knows that there is a problem because it is a problem for me. She hates it if I mention it or make a "dig" as she calls it. So this subject rarely gets mentioned in any way, shape or form anymore. Since it seems that she thinks it is MY problem, then I guess I am at the stage where i will find a solution for ME and no longer look for a solution for US.

 

I appreciate the feedback, and any PMs with ideas and support are appreciated, too.

[Untouchable_Fire]

While I truly have NO interest in an affair, I long for that connection with someone and realize that it may never happen with my wife...and yet I still have a hope that it may. But even still as I said before, we have a few years (ten approx) of raising children and this is my happiness (and frustration and stress sometimes! ) for now.

The end! Thanks...if you made it here and even a greater appreciation if you give feedback.

 

James... an affair can't really provide what you need. It's going to make your situation worse, because after it's done you will feel guilty and then keep suffering but now with tons of guilt.

 

You need to use your backbone. It has been 6 years... and to what effect? I think it's time for you to go nuclear here.

 

I really think this situation has persisted because of your passivity.

[JamesM]

James,

Remember me from waaay back? I was in the same sexless-marriage boat as you.

 

 

So please take my advice: you have NOT yet had "the talk". Sure you've done a LOT of talking, but you have not had THE TALK. Now repeat after me: I, James, have NOT YET HAD THE TALK.

 

The defining element of THE TALK which you've failed to deliver: you must make it crystal clear to her that you will not remain celibate in a sexless marriage.

 

I remember you and am glad for you. I agree that we have not had "THE TALK" that produced the results that you have had. We did have "A TALK" in April of 2006 that produced about a six month period of great sex. We have had some minor talks along the way that were confrontational that brought about some change. But you are right...we have not had a talk that produced a lasting result. I think that is obvious.

 

I will have to look back at your situation but I think it differed significantly enough from mine that to expect similar results would be a stretch.

 

I do not disagree that an ultimatum will produce results. I think that perhaps even "THE TALK" may get her to feel the need to have sex.

 

The problem is that getting results so that I am no longer sexless is NOT what I want! What I want is that WE have GOOD sex with HER enjoying it as much as I do. And if WE don't have that then I am not going to enjoy having sex on a long term basis. What I want is the enjoyment and excitement of watching her once again squirming with passion as her body enjoys what I do to her.

 

Sex is not about my being satisfied IMO. For me, it is about me satisfying her. I truly don't enjoy sex that is about her having sex so that I am "fulfilled." I think that is why we don't have it as often anymore. I think that if I tried more to get her to give me sex for my satisfaction, then she would comply and do so willingly more often. Since everything is "shut down" be it from hormones, medicines, pain, or whatever the reason, then I end up having some gratification that is empty.

 

BTW at this point, I don't care enough to have "THE TALK" so that I am selfishly satisfied. What I want can only be had if she truly wants what we had.

 

 

James... an affair can't really provide what you need. It's going to make your situation worse, because after it's done you will feel guilty and then keep suffering but now with tons of guilt.

 

You need to use your backbone. It has been 6 years... and to what effect? I think it's time for you to go nuclear here.

 

I really think this situation has persisted because of your passivity.

 

You are right. An affair would not solve the problem. The question is now...can the problem be solved? I don't know, but I do know (and you may one day find this out to be the case if you have been married to your new wife and have some kids) that I want us to stay together to raise the kids. An affair may get in the way of that.

 

Again, I suppose that I am too passive. I admit that. I would say as quickly that I have tried many options over the years that were much more assertive than I could portray here.

 

The additional problem to my problem is that I cannot bring myself to care enough to be more than passive or rather silent.

 

What if she changed tomorrow and suddenly had an interest in sex? What if she became passionate? I know that I would respond. I don't expect it, but my point is that I know that my apathy is from a certain despair and frustration resulting from years of no change.

 

Good viewpoints. Appreciate the feedback.

[Scrivdog]

James... an affair can't really provide what you need. It's going to make your situation worse, because after it's done you will feel guilty and then keep suffering but now with tons of guilt.

 

You need to use your backbone. It has been 6 years... and to what effect? I think it's time for you to go nuclear here.

 

I really think this situation has persisted because of your passivity.

 

Go nuclear? He's supposed to to what now? Throw a tantrum? Leave the house? What? And I'll bet money that even if any of those things worked, she will go right back to square one once he's settled down again.

 

Unfortunately, I see no other solution for him except to find a mistress. It's an age-old solution to age-old problem. And one good thing could come of it - she finds out and sees the wakeup call she needs.

 

I can't see how he can feel guilty about that. This woman has no respect to say what she said to him. If she catches him, what is she going to say? I'd sure love to hear it.

[Mme. Chaucer]

You are so cornered.

 

I don't think you should "go nuclear." I think you need to have an open marriage, if you truly won't divorce, and I believe you won't.

 

I believe there are probably quite a few women who would not mind having a sort of NSA relationship with a man who is married, as long as everything is out in the open. Who knows - maybe a woman in a situation not too different from your own. A woman with whom you can actually have a connection and some comfort, not just use of their body.

 

But you NEED to tell your wife without ranting, without raging, self pity or any kinds of jabbing at her that this is what you ARE going to do, since you are not ready to give up on your own sexuality for the rest of your lifetime just because she has chosen to do so herself.

 

And then, let your sexuality have a "life" outside of your marriage.

 

I'm sorry though. It sounds awful. I'm mad at your wife.

[Mr. Lucky]

I know this will get me flamed at some point, but I could do the escort thing and have.

No flames from me, in fact quite the contrary. Just proves that there's still a man alive in there despite the desperation.

 

I don't think that the fact that your wife denies you sexually is proof that she doesn't love you or care about you. But the fact that she won't do any of the admittedly hard work to address the underlying reasons why would lead me to question her commitment to the marriage. Seems like you're "all in", regardless of the challenges. Is she ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[Mr. Lucky]

Unfortunately, I see no other solution for him except to find a mistress. It's an age-old solution to age-old problem. And one good thing could come of it - she finds out and sees the wakeup call she needs.

Just out of curiosity, is that how it worked for you? You had an affair(s), your wife found out and it was the wakeup call she needed to re-engage in your marriage?

 

Mr. Lucky

[tommyr]

What I want is that WE have GOOD sex with HER enjoying it as much as I do. And if WE don't have that then I am not going to enjoy having sex on a long term basis. What I want is the enjoyment and excitement of watching her once again squirming with passion as her body enjoys what I do to her.

I have some bad news: that 22 year old horney and multi-orgasmic girl you first married is GONE. You need to adjust your expectations of her to match reality.

It is totally unfair of you to expect that she will EVER have a measurable sex drive OR have regular orgasms. GET OVER IT.

In fact, this might be your very problem all along. Your version of "the talk" demands of her something she just cannot deliver, even if she wanted to (which she doesn't anyway).

 

Instead, here is what you MIGHT expect of her (assuming you man-up and have THE TALK).

She will enjoy regular sex with you because of the intimacy and closeness it brings to her.

She will take satisfaction in YOUR sexual pleasure which strengthens the marriage bond.

And twice per year (same as it does now) her own sex drive will show up.

She might even experience some sexual pleasure, and on rare occasions, orgasm.

 

 

How do I know this? Because this is exactly what has happened with my wife ! You seem to think my wife suddenly got her old mojo back just because we had THE TALK.

Not at all! She still has almost zero sex drive, and if not for my own sex drive and her willingness to meet my needs, we would still never have sex.

My wife has trouble orgasming but will (once a month or so) allow the use of toys to assist with her pleasure.

But overall, I am a very happy husband, and she a very happy wife. We both enjoy our sex life, just for very different reasons.

 

James, if you really are hung up on her sex drive and her enjoyment, well your situation is hopeless.

But if you can accept her as she is (low interest/pleasure in sex), that is totally forgivable on her part.

What is UN-forgivable is her refusal to consider your sexual needs.

And for that reason, you must have The Talk.

[Scrivdog]

I remember a "talk" we had in April 2009 when my wife said, "If sex means that much to you, then you may have to find it elsewhere."

 

I just re-read this part. There is simply no point in depriving yourself. Go out and get a girlfriend.

[melodymatters]

It's so very nice to see you again James, though I am sorry it is the same old problem that brought you back here.

 

This is one of the hardest problems I've ever encountered in my six years on here, because perhaps "we" could get your wife to agree to: "Well, cleaning the bathroom is boring but it needs to be done" sex, but that isn't what you want !

 

I have to say that maybe your wife is not quite as....loving as you may believe. I am in my forties and have an amazing DAILY sex life with my husband. Now I acknowledge that things could change If say we had a major life problem and I was not feeling it for him, and or, say my hormones go full out wack one day. In the first case, we would need to fix what is wrong in our hearts and relationship, and then I assume it would be the same crazy hot, crazy in love sex.

 

But, if it was the latter, I would STILL F*CK MY HUSBAND whenever he wanted to, and I imagine that even if I wasn't orgasming I would still so enjoy his touch, his smell, our closeness.

 

I forgot where I first read or heard this, but it made sense so I applied it and it works likes gangbusters. Even if you are not in the mood at the same moment as your partner, love them, and give them the sex and intimacy they are obviously craving and 9/10 times you are going to get into it and start feeling good and BAM. I am ALWAYS like " Glad we did that and I wasn't even in the mood, but wow and THANKS !"

 

I don't understand why Mrs M. won't "love you" enough to be there for you in that way, and it makes me sad.

[India Ink]

.

 

A couple of weeks ago, she came out of the bathroom and shoved me back on the bed. She began passionately kissing me, and said, "I just want you to know that if I had to do it all over again, I would still choose you." This after 22 years of marriage...this does make me feel good. And so we were kissing and she could tell that I was excited. Now mind you, I didn't expect anything, because the kids were just outside of the room. (In fact, one shut the door so we could have privacy! ). She said after a few minutes when she could see I was really enjoying it, "Now don't get too excited...everything is turned off down there." And poof! I didn't say anything, but the kissing did kinda end.

 

I can't believe she doesn't realize how much this hurts me.

 

So I ranted. I have learned of ways to reduce the resentment. They may not be the best ways for some, but they have definitely helped me. I also REALLY want to stay because I do want the two of us together while we raise our children. I have no doubts that I will stay despite the lack of intimacy. I know this has an impact on our I feel towards her. It has made me less interested in hugging and kissing her, because I know that for the most part, she doesn't enjoy kissing like I do. It has made me less complimentary to her. And it has made me feel less close to her.

 

Well, what the future holds...I don't know. I feel sad when I see couples kissing. It is a happy/depressing feeling I get when I watch a movie with a good romance, and I see what could be but isn't.

 

 

While I truly have NO interest in an affair, I long for that connection with someone and realize that it may never happen with my wife...and yet I still have a hope that it may. But even still as I said before, we have a few years (ten approx) of raising children and this is my happiness (and frustration and stress sometimes! ) for now.

 

Okay...so if your wife were to read these parts of your post (I meant to generally edit out anything related to her fibromyalgia)...what do you think her response would be?

 

Would she be unmoved by this?

[Snowflower]

James, James, James...I'm sorry to see you here again. I had wondered what happened to you. I was hoping for a better update.

 

Okay, I understand that you are just venting here, which is great. This place is fantastic for that. Vent away! However, until YOU have decided that YOU are ready to make a change to your situation, nothing will change. Posters here can give you advice and feedback, but ultimately it will be up to YOU to decide when to make those difficult decisions and what those difficult decisions will be.

 

I agree with Melody's post above. It doesn't seem your wife loves you in the same way. She loves herself and her needs (or lack of needs) more, it seems. I'm so sorry you find yourself in this situation. Your wife doesn't know how lucky she is to have a man so devoted to her, the marriage and your family.

[JamesM]

You are so cornered.

 

I don't think you should "go nuclear." I think you need to have an open marriage, if you truly won't divorce, and I believe you won't.

 

I believe there are probably quite a few women who would not mind having a sort of NSA relationship with a man who is married, as long as everything is out in the open. Who knows - maybe a woman in a situation not too different from your own. A woman with whom you can actually have a connection and some comfort, not just use of their body.

 

But you NEED to tell your wife without ranting, without raging, self pity or any kinds of jabbing at her that this is what you ARE going to do, since you are not ready to give up on your own sexuality for the rest of your lifetime just because she has chosen to do so herself.

 

And then, let your sexuality have a "life" outside of your marriage.

 

I'm sorry though. It sounds awful. I'm mad at your wife.

 

Honestly, even though I started an affair about how to start an affair, I don't really want one. It would be too much of a hassle. And as for an open marriage, I am not interested in that either. I am quite certain that ours would be over.

 

I am cornered, and I hate being "powerless" to move out of that corner without doing something drastic. Part of the problem may be how I have handled it, but at this point, I don't have the motivation to fix the problem. And that probably is because I have tried many times and don't see a spark of interest from her.

 

I don't know if a woman could have a NSA affair with me if it was in the open, but I think I know that it would be hard for me to have one. But having never been in that position..who knows?

 

Thank you for your concern. It is appreciated.

 

No flames from me, in fact quite the contrary. Just proves that there's still a man alive in there despite the desperation.

 

I don't think that the fact that your wife denies you sexually is proof that she doesn't love you or care about you. But the fact that she won't do any of the admittedly hard work to address the underlying reasons why would lead me to question her commitment to the marriage. Seems like you're "all in", regardless of the challenges. Is she ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

You said my thoughts. I don't have answers either. I can understand why she has no interest in sex, but what I cannot understand is why she shows no interest doing something about it. She may feel that she cannot get it back, but yet not even attempting is what hurts.

 

I think part of the reason is again me. I don't constantly bug her anymore. In fact, I try not to mention it. She may think I no longer want it.

 

 

I have some bad news: that 22 year old horney and multi-orgasmic girl you first married is GONE. You need to adjust your expectations of her to match reality.

It is totally unfair of you to expect that she will EVER have a measurable sex drive OR have regular orgasms. GET OVER IT.

In fact, this might be your very problem all along. Your version of "the talk" demands of her something she just cannot deliver, even if she wanted to (which she doesn't anyway).

 

Actually, she was more interested in sex in her 30s. It quit sometime in her 40s. I don't think that my reality of what to expect is fantasy. I never expected regular orgasms, but I do expect a measurable sex drive based on how she was just within the last ten years.

 

Demanding her to fulfill my sexual needs is not what I want. In fact, you may be right...she may never enjoy sex again. And if the talk is simply about me telling her that if she doesn't have sex with me a certain amount of times in a week/month/year, then I don't think I can do your version.

 

Marriage is about a number of things, but as one poster said, when sex is no longer a part of it, you may as well call it a good friendship. And I might add that if sex is only added because it is demanded or done like any other chore, then you may as well hire a prostitute like you would a cook or maid.

 

Tommyr, I appreciate how this has worked for you. And I don't disagree that with "the talk," I may have more sexual satisfaction. But I wonder how empty it would feel that she does it reluctantly. And I wonder if I could ever think that it is done lovingly.

 

Perhaps I over analyze.

 

Instead, here is what you MIGHT expect of her (assuming you man-up and have THE TALK).

She will enjoy regular sex with you because of the intimacy and closeness it brings to her.

She will take satisfaction in YOUR sexual pleasure which strengthens the marriage bond.

And twice per year (same as it does now) her own sex drive will show up.

She might even experience some sexual pleasure, and on rare occasions, orgasm.

 

Here we go again..."man up." Sorry, that is one of those phrases that causes me to quit listening.

 

I will point out something that is relevant and not a cop-out. Only a sexual abuse survivor can relate, I think. Me demanding sex and at regular scheduled times (even worse) brings back memories of her past when she was told that "tonight we will..." I have been down this road with her and she communicated that to me. She never likes pre-planned sex and always has liked it on the impulse.

 

Part of the problem is that she has never seen these reasons to be true for her. I may be wrong, but if sex is more frequent but it is only for my satisfaction, then how will she see an improvement in intimacy? How will it be pleasurable for her if she does it like it is a chore?

 

I will give your post some consideration, but honestly, I (underlined and double capitalized) need to be convinced within my self that it will work for us. I can still say that I admire how it has worked for you per your words. Having the talk with her and having it simply turning into another discussion about sex for me doesn't appeal to me. Then it will sound me presenting a case for how my needs must be met...which again, is not my goal.

 

If anyone else has read Tommyr's post and can comment (especially any females), then I would love to hear your thoughts.

 

 

How do I know this? Because this is exactly what has happened with my wife ! You seem to think my wife suddenly got her old mojo back just because we had THE TALK.

Not at all! She still has almost zero sex drive, and if not for my own sex drive and her willingness to meet my needs, we would still never have sex.

My wife has trouble orgasming but will (once a month or so) allow the use of toys to assist with her pleasure.

But overall, I am a very happy husband, and she a very happy wife. We both enjoy our sex life, just for very different reasons.

 

And that may be the difference. You are happy with that kind of sex life, and I don't think I could be. You are right...I got the impression that she now has interest in sex with you. But it sounds like she is willing to help you get your release. Maybe I am the one who has the problem because I cannot settle for a wife who lets me use her for my sexual pleasure and is happy with that.

[JamesM]

It's so very nice to see you again James, though I am sorry it is the same old problem that brought you back here.

 

This is one of the hardest problems I've ever encountered in my six years on here, because perhaps "we" could get your wife to agree to: "Well, cleaning the bathroom is boring but it needs to be done" sex, but that isn't what you want !

 

I have to say that maybe your wife is not quite as....loving as you may believe. I am in my forties and have an amazing DAILY sex life with my husband. Now I acknowledge that things could change If say we had a major life problem and I was not feeling it for him, and or, say my hormones go full out wack one day. In the first case, we would need to fix what is wrong in our hearts and relationship, and then I assume it would be the same crazy hot, crazy in love sex.

 

But, if it was the latter, I would STILL F*CK MY HUSBAND whenever he wanted to, and I imagine that even if I wasn't orgasming I would still so enjoy his touch, his smell, our closeness.

 

I forgot where I first read or heard this, but it made sense so I applied it and it works likes gangbusters. Even if you are not in the mood at the same moment as your partner, love them, and give them the sex and intimacy they are obviously craving and 9/10 times you are going to get into it and start feeling good and BAM. I am ALWAYS like " Glad we did that and I wasn't even in the mood, but wow and THANKS !"

 

I don't understand why Mrs M. won't "love you" enough to be there for you in that way, and it makes me sad.

 

It is good to see you again too, melody! Glad your life is going good again.

 

Your words portrayed the attitude that I wish my wife had. In the past, she DID get into it if she didn't want to and she did try when she didn't want to. Somewhere that all ended. Why? I am sure that pain and stress and life and kids and... happened. While she says it isn't me, I cannot help but think that if only I had.... then this would all be different.

 

It makes me sad, too, and hurt because to me her not wanting sex is a sign of how she feels bout me.

[JamesM]

Okay...so if your wife were to read these parts of your post (I meant to generally edit out anything related to her fibromyalgia)...what do you think her response would be?

 

Would she be unmoved by this?

 

I don't know. I think she would be sad, and I am sure she would have her own thoughts to add (which I would love to know! ). But would it suddenly change our sex life? Probably not.

 

James, James, James...I'm sorry to see you here again. I had wondered what happened to you. I was hoping for a better update.

 

Okay, I understand that you are just venting here, which is great. This place is fantastic for that. Vent away! However, until YOU have decided that YOU are ready to make a change to your situation, nothing will change. Posters here can give you advice and feedback, but ultimately it will be up to YOU to decide when to make those difficult decisions and what those difficult decisions will be.

 

I agree with Melody's post above. It doesn't seem your wife loves you in the same way. She loves herself and her needs (or lack of needs) more, it seems. I'm so sorry you find yourself in this situation. Your wife doesn't know how lucky she is to have a man so devoted to her, the marriage and your family.

 

Good to see you again, Snowflower! I know that you and I discussed this two years ago. And here I am again! You are right. It won't change unless I do something. Even more...it won't change unless I can do something that gets her motivated to do something.

 

And your statement above that I bolded is probably the key to it all. And it hurts but is what I have thought as well. Shocking her into understanding why it is important to recognize my needs may be the only answer. I remember what you advocated and I may reach that point someday soon.

[belkin2]

JamesM,

My situation has a lot of differences to yours, but one thing we definitely have in common is what we seek in our intimacy and sexual encounters with our wives. My marriage has never been sexless and never got to the infrequency yours has, but sadly it probably should have because for long periods of time it was a chore on my wife's behalf and I hate looking back knowing that. I would rather not do it under those conditions...ultimately I would have rather addressed the issues properly long ago.

 

At any rate, it has taken us both to reach a point of unhappiness that led us to counseling back in Feb. Some things have changed and we are both putting a lot of effort into our marriage as a whole. Still a lot to be done, but there is hope because we are in it together and I can say that while I desire more from our sex life our general intimacy has increase a lot and the few times we have had sex in the past month or so it has been markedly different and heading in the right place. She wants to be there and is opening up to being sexual and passionate. I appreciate that and it gives me hope and a place to start rebuilding.

 

In my case we both reached that point together where we knew **** had to change and we were both willing to seek help. I am wondering how much you have portrayed this unhappiness you have to your wife? In other words, does she know how this really makes you feel and how important it is to you? Perhaps that is what 'THE TALK' needs to be for you? Sounds like you have approached her numerous times on this subject over the years, but have you guys ever had any counseling together? They can ask questions and drive each of you to reflect on things that I just don't see happening when you try to do it on your own (I also tried approaching the subject over the years and nothing ever worked). But you would have to get her there first and I believe that starts not with necessarily and ultimatum, but a plea to her to understand the depth of your unhappiness and that it is something you will both need to work on, not just you. So its more of an ultimatum for her to listen and be there as your wife...not an ultimatum of giving you her body or else.

There is likely something there within your wife as an underlying reason she is this way. She may not even really know it or understand it on a conscious level. It may or may not be linked to anything about you directly.

 

I feel for you and hope something can start making a change in a better direction for you!