AnotherRound Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 For those interested. ExMM and I had a long talk last night. I think we have it all sorted out and to a place that we all feel comfortable. He is going to attempt, one more time, to discuss not wanting reconciliation with his STBxW today. If she refuses to discuss it at all, he is going to "take the reins" as another poster put it, and simply let her know that he will be pushing the D through from his side as quickly as possible. Apparently, the W is not only not discussing the issues, but is continuing to be "wishy washy" as he put it, and even when she does give an answer, it is a non-answer. His final conclusion is, he does not want to live like that, and in order for them to even try a reconciliation, she would have to morph into a different person (all his words). He expressed a lot of guilt for hurting her, and for bringing the other OW into the mix who also hurt the wife tremendously. He asked for forgiveness, and the wife simply won't discuss it. I think he understands that there has been too much damage (on both sides) and that it is truly irreparable at this point. We discussed us, and what each of us wants and needs. Since he can't be in an out in the day relationship right now bc of the D, we are not going to see each other at all. Other than if we run into one another, which does happen from time to time, and then, simply to say hi. We are simply putting he and I off the table for now. He agreed that he needed to make his decisions from here on out based solely on what is best for him, his wife, and his child... without me muddling up the process. I agree (thanks for the advice from some of you!) We did discuss the D last night, and I explained why I'm wanting to remove myself from it. He agreed and appreciated my support up til now, and was understanding that this is something he needs to do for him and his family. We were very honest and open with one another, and the convo went well (even when we veered off into politics briefly, lol). He did ask my opinions on some things, and I simply told him that he needs to make his own decisions, and that my opinion isn't really relevant. He was understanding of that. I didn't get a lot of sleep bc we talked for so long, but I feel pretty good about it all. I know that he's not a perfect man, and I know that there is a chance that he hasn't gained any insight at all... but that's just not what I'm getting from him. I think he has realized many things that he was unable to see before. If he insists on not reconciling and the wife changes her mind, he wasn't sure what he would do at that point, and I can respect that. They have 20+ years together, a life they built together, and a child together. I can understand him wanting to at least try to mend it if he can. And if that's his choice, then I support him 100% and will never get in the way of that (not even by talking to him on the phone). I am still going on my date this week, and he's aware. We are going to try to approach this as a possible "new beginning" in that we will let things fall where they may. If he and his wife don't attempt to reconcile any further, and I am still single and willing to see him, then that is what we will do. I don't look at as if I'm his "second choice" in the way that some think of it. I see it as a man trying to fix something he helped break, it not being fixable, and him having the common sense to move on at that point. I honestly just want everyone to find happiness at the end of the day. So, I have a lot of work to do this week, and am hoping to be able to get some down time. Thank you to everyone who responded to me, even those that weren't that nice about it (bc I'm sure I will get some of that judgment IRL too, so a practice run is fine, lol). I really appreciate the advice that some of you provided me, and feel really good about where I am right now with all of this.
eleanorrigby Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 I'm curious, do you know what specific efforts the MM made to reconcile?
scatterd Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 I am glad you have come to an agreement. I wish you all the happiness in the world. Stay strong and have fun. 1
Silly_Girl Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 A decision is important, even if it's 'to do nothing just now'. You seem together and fine with it all. Good for you. I hope there's a happy ending, whether he delivers or not 2
Author AnotherRound Posted September 10, 2012 Author Posted September 10, 2012 I'm curious, do you know what specific efforts the MM made to reconcile? Well, he has been trying to even just get to the reconcile part. It's difficult bc the STBxW does not like to discuss things. So mostly, he's tried to get her to talk about the issues in the M. H has tried to get her to tell him what she wants, what the outcome she wants is. He has been spending time with her and their child in an effort to rebuild that. They have been getting along much better, but he is frustrated that it seems "nothing gets done". I don't know what else he can do if she refuses to discuss things. When he and I talked last night, I told him that if he truly wants to reconcile, he needs to dig his heels in and be there for as long as it takes for her to be ready to discuss. He said that he has thought about that and considered it, but he truly believes that she will "never" discuss it, bc she has "never" discussed anything in the past 20+ years with him. This has always been his biggest issue in the M, that they have no emotional intimacy at all. He says it has been that way from the beginning, that she was always like that, and it just built up for all these years, and when it was little things, no problem. But even now that it's this huge thing, she still refuses to discuss. So, he has tried for 7 months to just start a reconciliation process with no response from her. He has apologized, he has tried to talk to her, he has tried to offer her ideas re things they could try, he has been honest with her about his feelings and wants and needs, he has asked her what her feelings wants and needs are, he has been available and focused on her and their child, he has tried to talk to her about the D proceedings and what she wants to happen there, he has offered to attend MC with her. So, imo, the problem is, he is in a relationship with someone who just doesn't know how, is unable, or unwilling, to openly discuss things that are unpleasant. If his issue with her was something different, like that she was sarcastic or something, they might have a chance. But his issue with her is so basic, in that, he wants/needs a partner that is emotionally available. So, I think in his mind, he thinks that this IS the entire problem to begin within that started the breakdown of the marriage, and he doesn't see it changing for her as it is just who she is.
Author AnotherRound Posted September 10, 2012 Author Posted September 10, 2012 A decision is important, even if it's 'to do nothing just now'. You seem together and fine with it all. Good for you. I hope there's a happy ending, whether he delivers or not Well, I'm not expecting anything, so I won't be disappointed either way. I just want him (and everyone) to be happy. If they can be happy together, I wish them all the happiness in the world. I am fine where I am, and have been for the past year and a half. I think that's the luxury I have in all of this, that I do have enough emotional distance now that I can be so objective regarding it all.
eleanorrigby Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 Well, he has been trying to even just get to the reconcile part. It's difficult bc the STBxW does not like to discuss things. So mostly, he's tried to get her to talk about the issues in the M. H has tried to get her to tell him what she wants, what the outcome she wants is. He has been spending time with her and their child in an effort to rebuild that. They have been getting along much better, but he is frustrated that it seems "nothing gets done". I don't know what else he can do if she refuses to discuss things. What was he expecting to "get done"? What was he expecting reconciliation to look like or be? Do you know if he has tried anything besides talking? When he and I talked last night, I told him that if he truly wants to reconcile, he needs to dig his heels in and be there for as long as it takes for her to be ready to discuss. He said that he has thought about that and considered it, but he truly believes that she will "never" discuss it, bc she has "never" discussed anything in the past 20+ years with him. This has always been his biggest issue in the M, that they have no emotional intimacy at all. He says it has been that way from the beginning, that she was always like that, and it just built up for all these years, and when it was little things, no problem. But even now that it's this huge thing, she still refuses to discuss. Has he tried writing her letters instead of talking? When does he bring up the issues he wants to talk about? So, he has tried for 7 months to just start a reconciliation process with no response from her. He has apologized, he has tried to talk to her, he has tried to offer her ideas re things they could try, he has been honest with her about his feelings and wants and needs, he has asked her what her feelings wants and needs are, he has been available and focused on her and their child, he has tried to talk to her about the D proceedings and what she wants to happen there, he has offered to attend MC with her. When he asks her what she wants from the marriage and him, there is no response at all? She said no to marriage counseling? Is he bringing up divorce and reconciliation at the same time to his wife? So, imo, the problem is, he is in a relationship with someone who just doesn't know how, is unable, or unwilling, to openly discuss things that are unpleasant. If his issue with her was something different, like that she was sarcastic or something, they might have a chance. But his issue with her is so basic, in that, he wants/needs a partner that is emotionally available. So, I think in his mind, he thinks that this IS the entire problem to begin within that started the breakdown of the marriage, and he doesn't see it changing for her as it is just who she is.
phillyfan Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 Dude i aint belivin anythin hes sayin, i think the wifes nice she aint cold he just was playin around, got found out, now tryin 2 make it rite, but lyin 2 u to make it sound like hes probably leavin. Which he aint. But good 4 u, u can walk away wit ur head held high u did d rite thing, date single dudes afta a while u wil meet a great guy, forget this dude. 1
DBella Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 It sounds like he is confused about what he wants but he certainly has feelings for his W, otherwise he wouldn't be trying to work things out with her. Even when you think there has been too much damage and that their marriage might not be reparable, it is possible that they can fix their issues because they have been around each other for 20+ years and they have a kid together. You can tell that he really wants to be with her and if that doesn't work at all, then you come into the picture again that way he doesn't experience loneliness. She acts apathetic from what I read in your posts but yet, he's still trying to make an effort to work things out with her. You are moving on, so you should probably leave this guy and his drama in the past and continue moving on. This is going to drain you a lot. What if you end up coming back to him and half a year later he decides that he really misses his W of 20+ years and wants to give it a try again? How do you think you are going to feel like? Save yourself from that pain. There are so many ppl in this world that are drama-free and without commitments. I'm pretty sure one of those out there will be a better match for you.
OpenBook Posted September 11, 2012 Posted September 11, 2012 You go AR!! I think you're both doing the right thing. But the opinion that really matters here is yours. Sounds like you're in a strong place. Well done! 2
Author AnotherRound Posted September 11, 2012 Author Posted September 11, 2012 What was he expecting to "get done"? What was he expecting reconciliation to look like or be? Do you know if he has tried anything besides talking? He was expecting her to at least talk to him about what they can do towards reconciliation, if anything. He expected it to look like two people discussing their issues, attending MC, having time alone (without their child present, as she wants the child always present) so that they could discuss what the issues in the M are and so that they could BEGIN reconciliation. He has not tried anything besides talking, other than in his answer to her filing for D, he did write out that he wanted to reconcile. Has he tried writing her letters instead of talking? When does he bring up the issues he wants to talk about? He said that he has done this in the past, but that she simply "forgets" to read them, or just doesn't want to talk about them. He has attempted to email her, but same thing. She honestly just really doesn't want to talk about anything. If she wants reconciliation, she is going to have to TALK about some things with him. When he asks her what she wants from the marriage and him, there is no response at all? She said no to marriage counseling? Is he bringing up divorce and reconciliation at the same time to his wife? Yes, she literally says NOTHING. She walks away, acts like he didn't say anything to her, or says something like, "never say never!". When he asks her to clarify what she means, she says things like, "who knows what will happen 10 years down the line, or 20?". Non answers. She refuses to answer him directly about anything, and yes, she said "I think probably not" re MC. No. He was bringing up reconciliation up until about a week ago. He was trying to get her to at least discuss if SHE wanted to reconcile, and she won't say yes or no, or anything. So NOW, he is telling her that he is no longer willing to attempt to begin reconciliation bc he feels that if she won't discuss anything with him, there is little point to it all. So now, he is pushing the D and attempting to get her to finish her paper work for that. He is under the impression that he will probably have to have his attorney just push things through bc she won't discuss anything with him at all.
Author AnotherRound Posted September 11, 2012 Author Posted September 11, 2012 I hope you can separate yourself from him and stop being his therapist. He needs to not lean on you for your advice. Irregardless of your intent, you can't help but be biased. I would think this fills a need in you also, or else you wouldn't be doing it. I honestly can be very neutral re his wife. Please remember, I am a year and a half out of the relationship, and I walked away. I am in a good place emotionally, and have been dating, and not pining away for him. Even when I heard about the D with him and his wife, I just went about my business, bc it had NOTHING to do with me any longer. I am not going to be his therapist. We aren't going to see each other or talk on the phone until after his D is finalized. They are in the process now, and as it stands, just waiting on her to turn in some of the discovery paper work. He was hoping that they could sit down and agree on these things prior to court, but she continues to avoid that too. So, I'm leaving them to it, as neither of us wants to muddy up the waters any more than they already are. He and I agreed that when he is done with the D (if the wife continues to not even want to attempt reconciliation), THEN he will contact me.
Author AnotherRound Posted September 11, 2012 Author Posted September 11, 2012 It sounds like he is confused about what he wants but he certainly has feelings for his W, otherwise he wouldn't be trying to work things out with her. Even when you think there has been too much damage and that their marriage might not be reparable, it is possible that they can fix their issues because they have been around each other for 20+ years and they have a kid together. You can tell that he really wants to be with her and if that doesn't work at all, then you come into the picture again that way he doesn't experience loneliness. She acts apathetic from what I read in your posts but yet, he's still trying to make an effort to work things out with her. You are moving on, so you should probably leave this guy and his drama in the past and continue moving on. This is going to drain you a lot. What if you end up coming back to him and half a year later he decides that he really misses his W of 20+ years and wants to give it a try again? How do you think you are going to feel like? Save yourself from that pain. There are so many ppl in this world that are drama-free and without commitments. I'm pretty sure one of those out there will be a better match for you. I don't think he is confused anymore, if he ever was. It's not the STBxW vs me, it's the STBxW, their child, their home that they built, their business that they have together, both of their families who have been a combined family for 20+ years... ALL that... and that still isn't even vs. Me. What it is, is that he feels terribly guilty for not handling this correctly to begin with. So, he wanted to honestly try to "save" it, IF it could be saved. He now believes that it cannot be saved bc the biggest issue in his mind has always been the lack of communication and emotional intimacy between them. That is still there. He is not willing to continue to try to just begin reconciliation when she is already and still refusing to even discuss it. If he didn't "come to me" out of loneliness, he wouldn't have to be "lonely". The other OW still stalks him, and apparently still wants him. He's not a guy that is going to be forced to be all alone against his will, there are plenty of women that would be willing to give him a shot. If there is a SG out there that is a better match for me, and I meet him, then I will handle that. I would really like a chance to have a relationship with exMM without it being an A. It may not work. He may change his mind 6 months in and return to his wife. If he does, I will deal. It won't kill me, it's JUST a man, not the end of the world. If I lived my life afraid of all of the "what ifs" that could possibly happen, I'd never leave the house! I'm willing to take the chance IF they are divorced. I can handle whatever is thrown at me, I'm not scared at all.
Author AnotherRound Posted September 11, 2012 Author Posted September 11, 2012 So to clarify - all he has to do is claim that he's "separated" and "in the process" of divorcing and he gets the green light from you? Well, it was listed in the paper. And the records are available on line. And I know he's living separately (our town is very small, and quite a few people gossip about it). I don't know what else you think I should have? It will be online when the D is final. And it will be in the paper as "dissolution granted". Is that not to be trusted? I'm not sure what you are asking here?
Author AnotherRound Posted September 11, 2012 Author Posted September 11, 2012 Why do you refer to her as "his STBxW?" Because they are in the middle of a divorce. Again, not sure what you are not understanding? The D is filed, they have done the parenting classes, he has turned in his discovery paper work, she has not just yet. They both have attorneys, they are living separately. ????? I alternate between wife and STBxW, but wife is easier to type.
Author AnotherRound Posted September 11, 2012 Author Posted September 11, 2012 As is typical, your separated MM is essentially trying to win back his wife and wants you as a backup plan just in case the divorce actually goes through. What ARE you so angry about? Seriously, I'm just a stranger on the internet. It's not your husband, please don't take it so personally.
eleanorrigby Posted September 11, 2012 Posted September 11, 2012 From what I'm reading it sounds like his wife does not want to reconcile. Maybe she's stalling for some other reason.
Author AnotherRound Posted September 11, 2012 Author Posted September 11, 2012 From what I'm reading it sounds like his wife does not want to reconcile. Maybe she's stalling for some other reason. I agree. When we spoke last night, my suggestion to him was to state to her again, one last effort, and to make it clear to her that he is done attempting to reconcile. She may hear that and change her mind and decide that she really does want to stay married, and if he is at his wit's end, she may finally discuss some things with him. Maybe not. I don't know how she will react. But I told him that I want him to be where he wants to be and without regret. I think she is stalling, but I have no idea why, as she provides him and/or her friends very little information re: what she thinks or feels (bc that is how she just is). That's why I thought he needed to at least try again to make sure that she realizes that he is now not going to be trying to reconcile any further bc she refuses to communicate at all. If that doesn't get her communicating, then I don't know what will, if anything. His thoughts are that she wants him to be the "bad guy" and push the D. He believes that she is uncomfortable actually going through with it not bc she wants to try to fix it, but bc of appearances sake. He had decided (without talking to me) last week that he was going to see his attorney asap and try to push the process forward. But I really thought that he should make VERY sure that she realizes that this is what he is doing so that she has a chance to respond honestly if this is some kind of game for her that she thought would last forever. He really wants to make it work after all the years, child, house, business, grandchildren... but he is really frustrated that the very issue he has had for so long is now stopping them from even being able to decide if they want to reconcile. I think he has given it honest effort, and it may be a dollar short and a day late for her. But I think it would save them all some heartache if she would just SAY that. I have no idea why she refuses to talk about anything beyond dinner. But I can imagine how frustrating that would be for me. I know that most think he is at fault bc of the A, but honestly, how many people could do 20+ years of that? I couldn't do 20 minutes... ugh.
Silly_Girl Posted September 11, 2012 Posted September 11, 2012 My exMM's wife was desperate not to divorce, but also didn't want to reconcile.
Author AnotherRound Posted September 11, 2012 Author Posted September 11, 2012 Another - your story is no unique, so there's no point in deflecting. Your "love story" has been told over and over. Separated man strings both women along and waits to see where his wife makes him land. Okay, I'll play.. .I got some time to kill. lol. I have never used the word unique. Have you even read my posts? And I'm pretty sure I've never used the phrase "love story"... what are we, 12? What is he stringing me along with? The SGs I'm dating? The fact that I haven't been in touch with him for a year and a half? I mean, honestly, if that's what you consider "stringing along", you really are cynical. If his wife makes him land divorced, do you think that he should live the rest of his life alone? Is being divorced the end all? If someone is divorced and they have a relationship with someone else after that divorce... is that somehow wrong in your eyes? And deflect? I don't think that word means what you think it means. :o/
Author AnotherRound Posted September 11, 2012 Author Posted September 11, 2012 There is no other reason -- because the wife isn't the one who's stalling. HE is. As you too noticed, his tale doesn't add up. What do you get when you have a separated man who doesn't want to divorce, but wife does? A can't-be-alone-man who will schmooze a former OW in order to ensure soft landing. What normal person does this ****? Only an effed up person would attempt to secure a backup while the separation/divorce is in process. He's probably dangling a carrot in front of the OOW too just in case the OP falls through. The one he claims is still "stalking" him. Your guy sounds like he's internally freaking out right now. The wife doesn't want him, she's pushing the divorce, he's trying to get her back AND he's scrambling to make sure his options are in place all at the same time. Again... really? He is stalling? Okay. You can be right. Heck, maybe he's having sex with the wife AND the other OW right this second! Guess what? It doesn't hurt me at all... lol. Bc I've been away from him for a year and a half and he is not my BF, nor do I have any right to try to control another human. Let's say he is trying to get her back... and she, in all her glory, denies him. What shall he do then? I'm interested in what you think he should do at that point. And why you think it's so terrible that he would try to have another relationship with someone else if that is the case. Many people are the dumpees in breakups... they do normally go on to form new relationships with other people. Honestly, I'm not sure what you are getting at, except trying to take shots at me. Is there, perhaps, another board that would be more suited to what you are trying to say?
Leelou Posted September 11, 2012 Posted September 11, 2012 My exMM's wife was desperate not to divorce, but also didn't want to reconcile. Yup, sometimes it's easier to stay 'stuck.' Change is too frightening for lots of people.
Author AnotherRound Posted September 11, 2012 Author Posted September 11, 2012 My exMM's wife was desperate not to divorce, but also didn't want to reconcile. Yeah, it's a strange thing. I think many people live in fear of the unknown. Not to mention the stigma being divorced still carries in this society (to some extent, dependent on the persons involved and the surrounding community). I don't understand it. My exH and I went back and forth a lot. It was like, we couldn't mesh. When I wanted the D, he didn't, and vice versa. It went like that for a while, until we both just got so frustrated that we divorced. Then we had, well, a sort of buyer's remorse... lol. So, we tried to reconcile for another 2 years, off and on. He was my first BIG relationship, and it was hard to let it go. As much as he drove me nuts, I did love him. But honestly, once it was over, and we both began to heal, I couldn't believe that we had ever wanted to try to stay together in the first place! We were so mismatched for each other. He used to say "like oil and water"... lol. He was right! He did have an A, and it did hurt, but it didn't kill me. I got over it and we both moved on. We talk occasionally, and we honestly laugh about the divorce and such. We were young, what the heck did we know? I remember partially wanting to stay bc I was embarrassed. Embarrassed that he cheated on me and everyone knew. Embarrassed that we were failing at the marriage. But eventually, I realized, it didn't really matter what everyone else thought. Sometimes, people just marry the wrong person, through no fault of either person. We didn't know that we would be so different from one another several years down the line, ya know? So, with exMM, I'm not sure what the deal is. I think that they are both afraid. They are worried about the effects on their child and grandchildren, their families, their social circles. They worry about the finances, and splitting the assets. They worry how it will look to the community, especially after 20+ years. They worry about their business, and can they continue it. There is a lot to be considered, undoubtedly. In the end, only they can decide, after weighing it all out, if they are going to save it or not. I think that exMM is to the point that he believes that it just isn't fixable, and that they just aren't a good match... especially considering the communication issues. I don't know what she thinks, but she is definitely stalling for some reason. I guess time will tell why, or maybe nobody but her will ever know. For me? I'm just staying out of it. I tried to help him as neutrally as I could, and that's all I can do for now. I don't want to get involved in it, and be there through it, as I'm afraid it will just make it more confusing for him. What I would like for him is to be able to have a clear head and make clear choices so that he doesn't look back and have regrets. If he knows he has done everything possible to try to make it work, I think his guilt will be lessened re the D (not the A, as he takes full blame for that). Again, at the end of the day, I just want everyone to have happiness. It's a short life, no sense wasting it being miserable.
Author AnotherRound Posted September 11, 2012 Author Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) I'm not taking shots at you, just trying to open your eyes. Before you consider getting with this guy, go invite his wife for a cup of coffee and have a long chat with her. She has had plenty of opportunities to talk to me, she has always chosen not to. I'm not sure what you aren't getting about her personality. She DOES NOT communicate about anything that is deeper than what she is having for dinner. What makes you think she would be any more talkative with me than she is with him? Or ever has been with him? They have been M for 20 years, and she won't talk to him about anything deep, why would she talk to me about it? Doesn't that seem just the slightest bit far fetched to you? I mean, if she wants to have coffee with me, I would go. I'm not worried about anything at all re her. I have given her opportunities to talk to me, back when the A was happening, and she always chose to not take them. That's on her, not me. And as for now... are you saying that I should insert myself into their divorce proceedings? As in, contacting her? What would you hope that I accomplish by doing so? And, my eyes ARE open. I'm not sure why you think they aren't. Because I don't agree? Bc I don't see it the same way that you see it? Unlike you, I don't pretend to KNOW things that I can't know. I can't predict his future behavior. Statistically? Yeah, there are odds, but we all know, every now and then, there are exceptions to those rules. Unless you can predict the future, you don't know any more than I do what he will do in the next 50 years of his life. You can predict, and pretend it's the TRUTH, but we are all adults here, and that's impossible. You are spending energy trying to tell me things that I know... such as, he has cheated in his M. Um, I KNOW that. What you are wanting is for me to take that information and do exactly what you would do with it. I'm not you, and I have lived my life this long without you there to guide me, so, I think I'll do it my way and see what happens. Thanks though... Edited September 11, 2012 by AnotherRound 2
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