Infidelity is a symptom?

[frozensprouts]

sometimes it's much easier to say " you should talk to your spouse and find out if there is anything wrong" is easy to say, not so easy to do.

 

I tried that with mine, and would inevitably get " nothings wrong" or even sometimes " nothings wrong with me, what's wrong with you"... or " it's just work stuff"...

 

I'd try and encourage him to talk to me, but he was one of the types who thinks it's wrong to "burden' your spouse with your own problems, and I really think that some of his problems with very nebulous and not things he could articulate very easily, so he didn't try. I always figured that was when your spouse should really be there for you...when things were bad...even if they can't really do much to help, they can at least listen. I wasn't given the opportunity. I'd be chided for asking what was wrong, so eventually I stopped asking, which was interpreted as not caring.

 

Most of his issues had little or nothing to do with me and our marriage...they were issues with work, our kid's health concerns, his family, his upcoming deployment, grieving the loss of a friend who was killed on deployment, etc. . Wile there was nothing I could have done to change any of that, I would have listened to him had he chosen to talk with me, but he didn't.

 

We've learned from that though. Now we try and talk about things that are bothering us ( I'm just as bad at it as he is, probably even worse), and I remind him that if something is bothering him, he needs to tell me, even if it's something I may not like hearing. I can't help fix a problem if I don't know it's there.

[KathyM]

I would say cheating is a symptom of a person's lack of character/morality, rather than a symptom of a bad marriage. There are plenty of marriages which are, by all definitions good, but one partner then decides to cheat because he/she is lacking in character/morality, so he engages in an affair because he wants to regardless of how well his partner treats him. Then there are marriages that are troubled, struggling, difficult, and the person decides to cheat because of lack of character, rather than trying to fix the marriage or honestly end it. So I'd say infidelity can happen to good marriages and can happen to struggling marriages, and it is a symptom of a lack of character/morality, rather than a symptom of a bad marriage. As an example, my sister's first husband cheated on her in their second year of marriage. She was a beautiful woman, slender, loving, caring, sweet and loyal. And they loved each other--but he was lacking in morality/character and felt entitled to bang other women when he felt like it. Symptoms of bad character/morality--not a symptom of a bad marriage.

[Sauron]

I would say cheating is a symptom of a person's lack of character/morality, rather than a symptom of a bad marriage. There are plenty of marriages which are, by all definitions good, but one partner then decides to cheat because he/she is lacking in character/morality, so he engages in an affair because he wants to regardless of how well his partner treats him. Then there are marriages that are troubled, struggling, difficult, and the person decides to cheat because of lack of character, rather than trying to fix the marriage or honestly end it. So I'd say infidelity can happen to good marriages and can happen to struggling marriages, and it is a symptom of a lack of character/morality, rather than a symptom of a bad marriage. As an example, my sister's first husband cheated on her in their second year of marriage. She was a beautiful woman, slender, loving, caring, sweet and loyal. And they loved each other--but he was lacking in morality/character and felt entitled to bang other women when he felt like it. Symptoms of bad character/morality--not a symptom of a bad marriage.

 

Sorry to disagree with you Kathy. There are plenty of examples of prominent people that have affairs that have good morals and character in other aspects of their lives, Albert Einstein, Frnaklin Roosevelt, Charles Karault, off the top of my head, oh yeah and Bill Clinton. Some needs don't get meet, somebody will meet them.

[eleanorrigby]

Sorry to disagree with you Kathy. There are plenty of examples of prominent people that have affairs that have good morals and character in other aspects of their lives, Albert Einstein, Frnaklin Roosevelt, Charles Karault, off the top of my head, oh yeah and Bill Clinton. Some needs don't get meet, somebody will meet them.

 

So what? I can like and admire the good things those people have done and still look down on them for cheating.

[KathyM]

Sorry to disagree with you Kathy. There are plenty of examples of prominent people that have affairs that have good morals and character in other aspects of their lives, Albert Einstein, Frnaklin Roosevelt, Charles Karault, off the top of my head, oh yeah and Bill Clinton. Some needs don't get meet, somebody will meet them.

Ah, yes. Selective morality. A good guy in other ways, but still felt entitled to cheat and betray his spouse. That's like the guy who robs a bank, and his neighbors and family say he was such a good husband, good neighbor, etc. That one bad thing shows lack of character/morality and tarnishes the rest. But the point of the thread, and my response to it was whether infidelity was a symptom of a bad marriage. My response was that it is a symptom of poor character/morality, at least when it comes to being faithful. And it happens in both good marriages and not so good ones, if a person feels entitled or compelled to cheat rather than to honor his marriage or to honestly leave it.

[standtall]

Cheating for most men is a symptom of the disease of wanting more p****... men have a strong drive to spread the genes. The rest is chick stuff.

[Reg]

Chick stuf? I'm lost, a guy will only cheat for a piece of ***, but women do it for stuff? What stuff?

[2.50 a gallon]

Sauron

 

Until you experience it, it is almost impossible for an outsider to understand how your best friend, your lover, your spouse, can over night become a total stranger and your worst enemy

 

Did I compromise and meet my ex half way. Definitely! The problem was she kept moving the goal posts, no matter what I said or did she found away to turn it back on me

 

As an example. About the same time that we married she took a job in a Fortune 500 company and we had to move to a new city. I was a journeyman in my trade and quite capable of bringing home a salary far larger than hers and almost immediately receieved such a job offer. The problem was that I would have had to gone to nights for the first couple of months, when I would have been given a supervisor's job with a larger raise. But being a newly wed and in new town she was afraid to spend the night alone and I ended up taking a day position at less than half of what I was offered. This meant that she was bringing in more money than I was which in turn was fodder to the OM's, who pointed out that she was the bread winner and questioned why I even had a voice in how she spent her money.

 

As for paying her compliments, etc. Every compliment, was changed to me being needy and clingy.

 

On our six montha anniversary I caught her kissing an OM at her work place and immediately threw her under the bus. Her first wake up call, as a weak needy clingy man had the balls to tell her to not come home.

 

A month later she hit rock bottom and began begging me to reconcile. She even went so far as to schedule a couple of MC sessions, where she took the blame for everything, and basically said the problem was her listening to her co-worker OM's, and there was nothing I could have said or did that would have changed her mind.

[LadyElaine]

Usually one spouse is the symptom carrier of a dysfunctional marriage, just like the anorectic child is the symptom carrier of a dysfunctional family.

 

Not a bad analogy but it is always the cheater who is the carrier and also making it a full blown dysfunction by injecting infidity into it.

[strongnrelaxed]

I have read a lot of posts on this site and others, but few have generated such a massive pile of ignorance as this one. I should not be surprised that these are the perspectives of reasonable adults in modern society - after all, look at our divorce rates. It all makes sense in a sick twisted sort of way.

 

Here are a few thoughts to consider:

 

- Simplistic Black and White/cause and effect explanations for cheating are essentially worthless

- Judgmental comments are essentially worthless

- Perpetuating the myth that men cheat for physical reasons and women for emotional reasons is ignorant and childish - and worse yet, dangerous to both genders

- Implying or stating that a person considering cheating should somehow mention or admit this to their spouse is ridiculous. I DARE you to try this. Men know better than this. This admission alone is enough to land you in divorce court or a lifetime of torture.

- Saying that the one who cheats is simply weak or morally incorrect is an ancient myth. Like the flat earth theory. It just won't die.

- Implying that there is a double standard is a myth that died in the 80's. Let's not bring that silliness back again. Women cheat as much as men and perhaps even more - again, look this up on your own.

- Simple comments like some people are cheaters and others are not, is childish. I should not be surprised to read such things, but I am still bothered by these silly notions. It has been my experience in life that the most judgmental person is the one you should watch the most closely. The louder they yell the more you should investigate them. Ignore this one at your own risk.

- It is easy for people with low testosterone, unattractive, obese, older, or otherwise less attractive than average to complain that good looking people or people with high hormone levels cheat. People with more options are more likely to cheat - in both sexes. Why are we still debating this?

- Power dynamics in the relationship also play a role. This is set very early on. I bet you could run a few tests with couples to see how this will play out in the long run. Just a hunch. Women have this radar more than men do. But I bet it is scientific.

 

The more we perpetuate these simplistic arguments the more we doom young people to bad advice and bad decisions. Let's grow up and start being honest with each other.

 

The question is - can you handle the truth?

[woinlove]

The question is - can you handle the truth?

 

I can handle the truth, and think honesty about concurrent sexual partners is good. Didn't seem from your post that you were advocating for truthfulness though. Can you handle the truth?

[Sauron]

I have read a lot of posts on this site and others, but few have generated such a massive pile of ignorance as this one. I should not be surprised that these are the perspectives of reasonable adults in modern society - after all, look at our divorce rates. It all makes sense in a sick twisted sort of way.

 

Here are a few thoughts to consider:

 

- Simplistic Black and White/cause and effect explanations for cheating are essentially worthless

- Judgmental comments are essentially worthless

- Perpetuating the myth that men cheat for physical reasons and women for emotional reasons is ignorant and childish - and worse yet, dangerous to both genders

- Implying or stating that a person considering cheating should somehow mention or admit this to their spouse is ridiculous. I DARE you to try this. Men know better than this. This admission alone is enough to land you in divorce court or a lifetime of torture.

- Saying that the one who cheats is simply weak or morally incorrect is an ancient myth. Like the flat earth theory. It just won't die.

- Implying that there is a double standard is a myth that died in the 80's. Let's not bring that silliness back again. Women cheat as much as men and perhaps even more - again, look this up on your own.

- Simple comments like some people are cheaters and others are not, is childish. I should not be surprised to read such things, but I am still bothered by these silly notions. It has been my experience in life that the most judgmental person is the one you should watch the most closely. The louder they yell the more you should investigate them. Ignore this one at your own risk.

- It is easy for people with low testosterone, unattractive, obese, older, or otherwise less attractive than average to complain that good looking people or people with high hormone levels cheat. People with more options are more likely to cheat - in both sexes. Why are we still debating this?

- Power dynamics in the relationship also play a role. This is set very early on. I bet you could run a few tests with couples to see how this will play out in the long run. Just a hunch. Women have this radar more than men do. But I bet it is scientific.

 

The more we perpetuate these simplistic arguments the more we doom young people to bad advice and bad decisions. Let's grow up and start being honest with each other.

 

The question is - can you handle the truth?

 

 

Finally, some realistic intelligence shines through on this thread.

[waterwoman]

But which truth? Surely the whole point of your post is that there isn't one single truth.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

I always feel bad when I ask questions here, but there are things discussed here that never come up on other boards, so please know I mean no disrespect.

 

Don't you think that BOTH spouses should ALWAYS be bending over backwards for one another? Isn't that what it's really supposed to always be about?

It was in my marriage...for years and years.

That's my benchmark for relationships.

You do everything you can to make the other person happy because that's what you should want. It's when that stops that I think people become suceptible to falling apart. (not just affairs, but in general)

It's work, it's tons of effort, but anything worth having is worth effort.

 

I'll stay away from the "bend over backwards" standard because that standard has not been defined. My definition and someone else's definition could vary greatly. I read it as doing something that is burdensome or unnatural.

 

I do not set my goals to make my wife "happy". My goals are to create a marriage where my wife feels safe and secure enough to communicate honestly with me. Improving our communication is the key. I could try to make my wife happy with actions and deeds, but unless I KNOW what makes her happy, I could just be spinning my wheels and getting frustrated. Secondly, I alone can not make someone happy. If happiness is dependent upon another person, then we set our selves up to fail.

 

I also have limits of what I'm willing to do to make her happy. The danger of exceeding those limits are (1) I become a doormat or enabler, (2) I get frustrated trying, (3) I lose respect for or her for me, (4) over time I won't be me anymore, I'll be who I think she wants me to be. I am who I am. She knows who I am. If that is not good enough, then we can begin the divorce process.

 

All I've wanted from the beginning was for us to be partners (i.e. united against adversity), honesty, and to be treated with respect. She failed miserably at all 3 when she had her affair. We have spent a long time rebuilding those pillars of our marriage.

 

I'll self-sacrifice on some areas for the sake of rebuilding the marriage, but I don't see myself bending over backwards to make her happy. She's responsible for her own happiness, same as I am responsible for mine. With that being said, we each work hard to create a marriage where we can both achieve happiness.

 

Happiness is found individually within the framework of marriage. That framework is dependent on communication skills. I hope that makes sense.

[William]

'Troll' showed up in my morning search for that word here, so I'm going to close this and queue it for moderator review. Be aware that calling out members as trolls is a civility and respect violation and I discourage members who wish to retain their posting privileges from doing so. I search for the word every morning when banning trolls and spammers and infracting members who don't follow the rules here. If the thread merits re-opening, that'll happen later today.

[Stephanie]

I have cleaned up this thread to the best of my ability. It is hard to leave the sometimes valid points when they are intertwined with insults, digs and sarcasm. As such, they have been summarily deleted.

 

If you care about your message being left for all to see, word it in a way that it doesn't violate the community guidelines.

 

The topic of this thread is whether or not an affair is a symptom of a broken marriage (summarizing, read the OP before responding). This is not the place to attack any members, regardless of their stance on this issue.

 

This thread has been reopened but will be watched carefully.

[Radagast]

I was reading this books on how to reconcile and all have a part about affairs, and they say pretty much the same, that is not the problem is a symptom that the relationship wasn't good. But as a symptom it seems to the autors that I could be fixable, if both or just one partner want to work in the relationship... I was thinking that just maaaaaybe... it could be right, I mean, if things were great the cheat wouldn't happen, but is not a reason to exonerate the cheater... I don't know what to think... What do you believe?

 

I would agree with this. If my (previous) marriage had been good, I would neer have considered having an affair. As it was, I was faithful for more than 30 years, even though it wasn't good. But eventually the costs were just too high.

 

Having tried for years to get her to go to counselling, or to agree to come to marriage counselling with me, and having invested every ounce of my energy in trying to fix the marriage while she considered there to be nothing that warranted fixing, and having tried to communicate for years my unmet needs and my unhappinesses within the marriage, yes, eventually I did stop trying. And at that stage I did have choices. I could continue to be her doormat for her to wipe her feet on. I could leave her and inflict the same trauma she inflicted on the children when she left. Or I could try to keep the family together until the kids were old enough, while getting my needs met elsewhere. And when that option presented itself in a very attractive format it did seem to me at the time to be the best option, since I'd exhausted pretty much all the other constructive ones I could see.

 

Some posters on this thread have maintained that "there's no such thing as a perfect marriage". I would beg to disagree with that. I think it's sad that so many here are admitting that they have settled for less than optimal marriages when it is perfectly possible to have a perfect marriage, perfect for the people in it. I have one. There is honestly nothing I would change about my marriage, or my wife, or how we relate or how we function as a partnership. We address issues as they come up, and we work together on solutions. And because of that I know I would never have an affair. There would not be anything any other woman could possibly offer me that I could not - and do not - get already, and better, from my wife. If I had had anything a fraction as good as this with my ex-wife I would never have had an affair.

 

Looking at it from my ex-wife's perspective, I'm sure she'd say something different. She would claim she had a wonderful marriage, that there was nothing wrong with the marriage and that my affair was not a symptom of a bad marriage but a symptom of something wrong with me. And yet, no doubt she would deny that that logic held with regard to her own affair during her first marriage. That one, she would claim, was due to the marriage being shot rather than her being fundamentally broken. So I'd hazard a guess that the betrayed spouse will largely argue that it is the unfaithful spouse, rather than the marriage, that is broken which leads to an affair, while the unfaithful spouse (and most psychologists) would claim the reverse.

[frozensprouts]

I always find it funny when people spout ' everyone will cheat if given the chance/opportunity/are angry enough/want revenge/ " etc., then smugly assert that those of us who haven't cheated ( and believe that we won't) simply haven't had the opportunity to yet.

 

Speaking for myself, i haven't cheated, even during the times when my marriage ( or other life stressors) were particularly harsh. It's not like I haven't had the opportunity to. It's just not in me to do it. I honestly just don't understand how cheating will do anything to solve the problems in a marriage...better to actually get off one's butt and do the work of fixing them or getting out than to take the lazy ( and let's be honest, grossly self entitled way ) out and cheat. Even during the times when my husband's been away for weeks , months or almost a year with little contact between us, it's just not something I consider to be an acceptable choice. I'm fairly attractive, have normal hormone levels, have opportunity to cheat ( besides, in these days of internet dating, pretty much everyone has pretty easy access to cheating should they want to), etc.

 

Maybe there's something genetic to it, maybe I wasn't socialized that way, or maybe there's something else. While there's nothing wrong with not wanting to be with just one person, there is something wrong with lying about that to get one's needs met. If one doesn't feel they can be faithful to their spouse ( sometimes t takes a long time to get this self awareness) then be honest with your spouse and try to negotiate a new marriage pattern that works for both. If one wants to cheat because their marriage is bad, then rather than cheat, tell your spouse how you feel...if you can't do that, then leave. All the stuff about " it's too complicated to divorce" or " I don't want to hurt my kids" is tripe...what on earth does one think the end result of cheating may very well be if they get caught anyway? If the one cheating is caught, then there will certainly be some pretty big fallout from it, especially for any children in the family. Seems pretty damned selfish of a mother or father to risk that, rather than to just be honest with their spouse and tell them something is wrong.

[Furious]

Cheating is not some mysterious and difficult thing to do, if someone wants to they can find a willing partner just about anywhere.

 

An affair partner, can be found at the office, at a fitness class, a coffee shop, a concert, at a bar, the grocery store, or with a spouse's friend or neighbor, or even on line where cheaters can arrange a meet up.

 

Fat, short, tall or thin, average looking or good looking, young or old, wealthy or poor, cheaters come in many packages.

 

It's astounding how many people with unmet needs are out there and of course the marriage must be awful, otherwise they wouldn't be cheating.

 

It's ironic how many have the courage to cheat but don't have the courage to either fix what's missing or get that divorce.

[eleanorrigby]

Cheating is not some mysterious and difficult thing to do, if someone wants to they can find a willing partner just about anywhere.

 

An affair partner, can be found at the office, at a fitness class, a coffee shop, a concert, at a bar, the grocery store, or with a spouse's friend or neighbor, or even on line where cheaters can arrange a meet up.

 

Fat, short, tall or thin, average looking or good looking, young or old, wealthy or poor, cheaters come in many packages.

 

It's astounding how many people with unmet needs are out there and of course the marriage must be awful, otherwise they wouldn't be cheating.

 

It's ironic how many have the courage to cheat but don't have the courage to either fix what's missing or get that divorce.

^^^ *nods head* The cheating is easypeasy. Trying to fix the relationship or end it is the hard part.

[woinlove]

 

I certainly did not expect a woman to jump into this discussion in an open and honest way. I am also not surprised that the two female responses offered were of the typical sort "nya nya, you forgot to mention ___ so you are wrong"

 

I was referring to this part of your post:

 

Implying or stating that a person considering cheating should somehow mention or admit this to their spouse is ridiculous. I DARE you to try this. Men know better than this. This admission alone is enough to land you in divorce court or a lifetime of torture.

 

I have been in an open M for the past 25 years, so both my H and I do tell each other about our desires, attractions, lusts and loves and the consequences are neither divorce nor torture, but more intimacy and loving support. I do think people that do not want monogamy should discuss that with their spouses. That is my opinion. I understand that some people choose deception instead and they themselves might not even want the truth. I both want the truth and give the truth to those I am intimate with. It is on that point I thought you asking others if they could accept the truth was rather ironic, since it was not clear from your post whether you want truth or deception. Hope this helps you understand my response to you.

[woinlove]

So what are we supposed to take away from your open relationship that you are truthful and your good? And those of us that aren't are what, evil? Your situation works for you, mine works for me, LHF works for her. So you don't think bad realtionships create affairs or you do?

 

No, simply, I value and advocate for openness and honesty. You can value and advocate for whatever you want. No, I don't think bad relationships create affairs. I think individuals chose to to have affairs, no "relationship" is forcing them into it. I have had some bad relationships and I have never cheated - no one is going to make me be dishonest and deceptive. When I decided an R was bad I either worked to change it or I ended it. That's how I operate. I won't give anyone else the power to cause me to betray my values, because I like to make my own choices as to how to treat others.

 

Thinking of infidelity of a symptom is much too passive of a lifestyle for me. I say steer your own life actively.

 

I like to live my life actively, making my own decisions and taking responsibility for those decisions, whether they are good or bad or mixed. I notice many people involved in secret affairs like to abdicate their own power, thinking affairs "happen" to them or someone else caused the affair. I don't give others, even my H, whom I love deeply and whom I have chosen to intertwine my whole life with, the power to control my own decisions, particularly decisions which reflect on my own personal integrity.

 

That's me. You make different choices. So, what is your point? You don't like others presenting arguments in favor of different choices or what?

[Mariana345]

Yes sometimes the affair is a symptom of a bad marriage.

 

But not in the case of my marriage. We had just married and still in the honeymoom phase when she took a new job with a fortune 500 company and we moved a thousand miles away from our home town.

 

My Ex was young, very beautiful, blue eyes, strawberry blonde hair, built like a brick outhouse, with long shapely legs. In short one of the sexiest women that I have ever known, and at the same time was easy with her sexiness and was no prude.

 

Being one of the first women in her field at her place of work, brought in almost an army of other males trying to get into her pants. Almost from day one of her starting her new job I was fighting an army of OM co-workers. They were clever, instead of making passes at her, they began to attack me and my marriage. They did this gradually, and once they got her ear, there was nothing I could do, as every thing I did or said, they took and twisted it around to make it appear negative. No matter what I said or did, they had me by the balls whether I was coming or going.

 

Example, on the anniversary of our meeting I gave her a rose. They turned this around to make me look clingy and needy. Should I not give her something, they turned that around to make it appear that I was a none caring SOB.

 

One "I Love You" a day and I was none caring, two "I Love You"s a day and I was clingy and needy

 

Should we go shopping together, they interrpreted this as me being controlling, etc.

 

So the bad marriage, did not exist until the OM created it in her mind.

 

No marriage is heavenly perfect, there will always be small cracks here and there.

 

Later, after we separated and I hated all of the women in the world, I used these same tactics with the married women that I pursued. We became friends, confidents, and once they confided something that they did not like about their husband or marriage. I would take that crack and widen it, without them even realizing it, until it reached a point they were pursuing me.

 

So in the case of a predator OM, one could ask which came first the chicken or the egg. A skilled OM will find that tiny crack and enlarge it until he makes his sexual conquest. And that is all that he is after.

 

 

OMG!!! I think this happened to me as well. We were doing great until he talked to his "friends" from work, but he never told me with who he was talking to... it probably was the other woman...