Infidelity is a symptom?

[Mariana345]

I was reading this books on how to reconcile and all have a part about affairs, and they say pretty much the same, that is not the problem is a symptom that the relationship wasn't good. But as a symptom it seems to the autors that I could be fixable, if both or just one partner want to work in the relationship... I was thinking that just maaaaaybe... it could be right, I mean, if things were great the cheat wouldn't happen, but is not a reason to exonerate the cheater... I don't know what to think... What do you believe?

[GorillaTheater]

I think that maybe an affair is a symptom of a problem in the relationship and maybe it isn't, but it's nearly always a symptom of the brokeness or lack of boundaries, or both, in the person having the affair.

 

I also think it takes two to fix a relationship, that one partner can't do the job on their own. And in the case of a cheater, they'd better consistently put 120% into fixing the relationship, and be perfectly willing to do most if not all of the heavy lifting that requires.

[Silly_Girl]

I tend to see cheating as a symptom and not the cause of marriage breakdown.

 

From my point of view, any cheating scenarios were based on severe issues already present. I've not heard - IRL - anyone own up to something like 'boredom' or 'attention seeking'. It's always been pretty darned fundamental.

[LadyElaine]

There may or may not be serious problems in the marriage, all marriages have minor problems. But that's not what affairs are about.

Edited September 3, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[karnak]

I, too, used to see cheating as originating from "problems in a relationship".

 

Nowadays, I see cheating as coming from a "person with problems".

 

Every relationship has troubles. EVERY RELATIONSHIP.

 

And some people, even in the best relationships, cheat. Too much libido? Emotional problems? Dissatisfaction with the partner? There can be as many reasons as there are cheaters.

 

The fact is that some people will never cheat. Ever! It's not a part of their nature. While others will take every opportunity and excuse to cheat on their partner.

 

You can have a fairy-tale relationship and yet it can be hit by infidelity. Why? Who knows?

 

Why do some people cheat?

 

Well... why do some people smoke and others do not?

[96nole]

My former boss was happily married with 5 children. He owned the company and he made millions. His wife is beautiful. He loved his wife. He loved his children. They had a live in nanny to help with the kids. The were able to travel the world. They would spend a month in Spain during the summer.

 

He also had a woman in every port. He was a sugar daddy. He had several sugar babies. His affairs weren't a symptom of a failing marriage. We always wondered if his wife knew. We wondered if it was an open marriage. But they were always very happy together and hanging all over each other.

[VanilleLatte]

I don't honestly think there is a one size fits all when it comes to infidelity. Sometimes its the Narcissistic personality, sometimes it's the wife who's emotional needs are not being met, the husband who's physical needs aren't being met, the person going through depression, or the person suffering from an addiction. Sadly, the list and excuses/reasons goes on and on. Generally it's someone who really has no self-love and they need the external gratification to compensate for what they lack internally.

[Steen719]

There may or may not be serious problems in the marriage, all marriages have minor problems. But that's not what affairs are about.

 

Had to log in to say I agree with this 100% and with Karnak's post below. If any cheaters think their spouses who did not cheat on them were always happy with them every single day, they are seriously deluded. Good Lord, I had plenty of "reasons" to cheat, according to this theory and didn't. There really are people who choose to leave their spouse before they date; really there are! I have to agree that it is what a person chooses to do because of whatever internally allows them to think it is OK, but to promote the idea that affairs are the symptoms of a bad relationship is a little too close to rationalization for me.

Edited September 3, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Betrayed&Stayed]

I was reading this books on how to reconcile and all have a part about affairs, and they say pretty much the same, that is not the problem is a symptom that the relationship wasn't good. But as a symptom it seems to the autors that I could be fixable, if both or just one partner want to work in the relationship... I was thinking that just maaaaaybe... it could be right, I mean, if things were great the cheat wouldn't happen, but is not a reason to exonerate the cheater... I don't know what to think... What do you believe?

 

I too read all of the theories that an affair is a symptom of a something lacking in the relationship. I personally feel that that is a cop-out. As stated many times: there is no perfect marriage.

 

After reflecting on my own situation and reading many other stories I am a firm believer that an affair (most, not all) is a symptom of a broken person, not a broken marriage. If the marriage is "broken" then take steps to "fix" it. Having an affair is the worse way to "fix" what is lacking in a marriage.

 

Whatever problems there are in the marriage, the cheating spouse just leverages that to justify their illicit affair. I told my WW that I don't understand how I was her best friend and lover for years, and then over the course of a month she came to abhor my presence. Is that a symptom of a broken marriage or a broken person?

 

At the beginning of our reconciliation she initially gave external reasons for her affair: she didn't get along with my parents, she thought I was not spontaneous enough, I was traveling frequently. As we dug deeper it became apparent that the the core reasons for her affair were internal: lack of boundaries, low self-esteem, need for external validation, avoids conflict, lack of communication skills, being over critical, the list goes on.

 

As she entered into the EA, then I became the "bad guy". This is how she reconciled her being a "good" person having an affair. Then it was easy to progress into PA.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Betrayed&Stayed

[Ninja'sHusband]

Cheating is a symptom of problems in a marriage a lot of times.

 

The thing is cheating brings new problems that are much worse than the original ones, and then the cheater expects to have their complaints addressed...when all trust has now been completely destroyed? It's sabotage of the worst kind, especially if the cheater is now emotionally attached to the AP.

 

Cheating is often a symptom of a conflict avoidant, low self esteem person who cannot communicate and has no boundaries. Even if the betrayed spouse is the worst person in the world...the right thing for the other person to do is LEAVE! Respect yourself and get out of the relationship, you do yourself so much dishonor by turning into an adulterer, not to mention what you do to the betrayed spouse.

[BetrayedH]

Marital problems don't cause cheating. Every marriage has marital problems. Some spouses stay faithful thru horrendous marital problems (including infidelity!). Why didn't the marital problems cause them to cheat?

 

The cause of cheating is the cheater's decision to cheat.

Edited September 1, 2012 by BetrayedH

[GLDheart]

I call B*llSh*t.

 

Cheating is a BAD choice based in selfishness and self justification. If the relationship is so bad you need an "escape", maybe you should look into fixing or leaving the relationship before doing one of the most despicable things on earth to a spouse that you profess your love to.

Edited September 3, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[2.50 a gallon]

Yes sometimes the affair is a symptom of a bad marriage.

 

But not in the case of my marriage. We had just married and still in the honeymoom phase when she took a new job with a fortune 500 company and we moved a thousand miles away from our home town.

 

My Ex was young, very beautiful, blue eyes, strawberry blonde hair, built like a brick outhouse, with long shapely legs. In short one of the sexiest women that I have ever known, and at the same time was easy with her sexiness and was no prude.

 

Being one of the first women in her field at her place of work, brought in almost an army of other males trying to get into her pants. Almost from day one of her starting her new job I was fighting an army of OM co-workers. They were clever, instead of making passes at her, they began to attack me and my marriage. They did this gradually, and once they got her ear, there was nothing I could do, as every thing I did or said, they took and twisted it around to make it appear negative. No matter what I said or did, they had me by the balls whether I was coming or going.

 

Example, on the anniversary of our meeting I gave her a rose. They turned this around to make me look clingy and needy. Should I not give her something, they turned that around to make it appear that I was a none caring SOB.

 

One "I Love You" a day and I was none caring, two "I Love You"s a day and I was clingy and needy

 

Should we go shopping together, they interrpreted this as me being controlling, etc.

 

So the bad marriage, did not exist until the OM created it in her mind.

 

No marriage is heavenly perfect, there will always be small cracks here and there.

 

Later, after we separated and I hated all of the women in the world, I used these same tactics with the married women that I pursued. We became friends, confidents, and once they confided something that they did not like about their husband or marriage. I would take that crack and widen it, without them even realizing it, until it reached a point they were pursuing me.

 

So in the case of a predator OM, one could ask which came first the chicken or the egg. A skilled OM will find that tiny crack and enlarge it until he makes his sexual conquest. And that is all that he is after.

[DBella]

There may or may not be serious problems in the marriage, all marriages have minor problems. But that's not what affairs are about.

 

This and I would dare to say that culture and things ppl see in their homes when growing up. My H grew up in a household where cheating by his dad was the norm. Then years later I found out that all of his uncles and cousins are cheaters too. Then I hear about others from that same part of the country my H grew up in. It appears that in their culture is seen as a "macho" thing, the more women the better, they talk about all the women they slept with as if they are talking about trophies.

Edited September 3, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Sauron]

Good people can cheat and still be good people. Good people can cheat and still have good morals. Good people can cheat and still make big bucks in the media. There a myriad reasons one steps outside of the marriage. I would be interested if the regulars here that are the cheaters or the betrayed, did you feel like you did everything thing humanly possible and within their power to create a cheat proof realtionship? Did you meet your partners half way? did you engage in frank and direct dialog that something was missing you needed? did you comprise on your positions? did you get out of your comfort zone for sex? did you avoid being complacent and taking your partner for granted? did you give compliments, did you keep yourself physically fit and attractive for your partner?, did you make a huge effort to meet your partners emotional needs? did you communicate your own...just curious?

[Steen719]

Sauron, I do think that some of the things you talk about contribute to unhappiness or dissatisfaction on the parts of one spouse or the other. Am I guilty of any of those things? Certainly, I am, as was my XH and as I am sure, you were. Because none of us are perfect.

 

In my situation, I did some things wrong and some things right. However, when the chips were down, I stepped up and took care of a very ill husband, physically and financially, nursing him through several hospitalizations, transplant and going into debt so severe that in all likelihood, I will be filing bankruptcy when all is said and done. I worked almost every working hour to pay our bills and not lose our home, pay his huge co-pays and deductibles, pay to move to another city to await transplant and try my best to help my son with college expenses, all while he couldn't work. Did I ignore him? Yes, I barely had time for anything but work and he spent his time on facebook, reconnecting with old girlfriends and looking at strippers and dancers.

 

Here is my point. I was not perfect and I did not do all of the "right" things, nor did he. But, did I deserve to hear that he wanted a divorce (or whatever it was he wanted) instead of him being a sneaky bastard? You betcha. You can say what you want and rationalize every single action of a person, including your own actions, but I want to tell you this. Honest is honest. It doesn't come with rationalizations. It is what it says - Honesty. Integrity is not having integrity when it suits you. It is whether it suits you or not, whether it helps you or hurts you. If you are unhappy with your spouse and you want to have an affair, why is it alright to do that without telling her? Doesn't she, as a person, deserve your honesty?

 

One thing I have really learned throughout this mess is that while I have no house, no money and have many, many imperfections, I am basically an honest and decent person and I deserve all of my relationships to be the same, not just my romantic relationships. I don't think I could trust someone who lied every single day to a person they were supposed to honor and love, whether they were perfect or not. That is why so many betrayed spouses do not want cheaters as their friends. They know what it takes out of a person to be betrayed by a person who you care about.

 

So, I divorced my liar, even though I loved him, because even though there were many things I did not do right, I did enough right that I felt I didn't want to pick up what he was putting down. You are not going to divorce your wife. That is your business, but unless you have no imperfections, your point about how much we didn't do is mostly lost on most of us, well on me anyway, as I can't say what it is for anyone else.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Steen719

[waterwoman]

I don't think it's that simple.

 

And how do you define 'not good'. Is a 'not good' marriage one that has been strong enough and reasonably happy for many years but has got a bit tired and dog-eared ? Or does it have to be actively unhappy or abusive to be 'not good'?

 

In my opinion one of the main purposes of marriage is to support both partners when things get tough - and that means when one partner is hit by illness, depression, menopause, bereavement, unemployment etc. If the other partner finds a third party to love because life at home is just too hard, then I think they are the problem. The affair is the symptom of that partner's lack of backbone.

 

If a marriage is simply abusive or very unhappy I think an affair could be called a symptom - and a quite justifiable one.

 

My H was the one with the lack of backbone. His OW was the one with the abusive marriage. I can understand her actions (I can't say I will ever trust or be friendly to her again) more easily than I can understand his.

 

But humans are fallible - we fail all the time. H and I failed to nurture our marriage enough, OW failed to nurture herself when she chose to marry a man whom she knew to be controlling and angry. But the biggest failure was H's when he chose to get close to her instead of trying to rebuild his relationship with his wife.

 

I don't know if any of that makes sense to anyone else. It does to me

[Sauron]

I am not perfect GLD or a marriage counsleor, and neither are you apparently. Everybody has THEIR own view of the world and the individual situation. I will just say that when one partner stops investing, stops caring, starts taking for granted the other, stops meeting needs, lets themseleves go, etc then an environment is created for the affir in my opinion. I didn't say it's right, or honorable or honest it just is. Not rationalizing anything. The cheater has to decide how long will they hang in waiting for things to get better, blow up their family with a divorce or find what they need while they se how things shake out. I take full responsibility and accountability for my actions, however I wonder how many people wake up and decide that everythings wonderful in my relationship I think I will start an affair or go screw a stranger. More complex than that I would wager.

[LadyElaine]

Actually sauron it's the other way round. The cheating party is usually the one neglecting, not meeting needs, not investing, an taking for granted. The betrayed is very often the devoted, hard working on the relationship, unappreciated one. It's called being a narcissistic p****. The grass is greener where you water it. The affair looks so great because you put the effort there and not in the marriage. I think you've it all backwards.

 

My sister was neglected for 6 years while her H was in grad school. She worked nights, she minded friends kids so she could look after theirs and earn. She did everything round the house. She looked great. She cooked great. He was grateful but neglectful. She was loyal.

 

She got her chance then when the kids started school and she got a great job with 3 months training out of state. He cheated on her. Six years devotion and ages gone 12 freaking weeks and He says he's neglected. Puh lease. He needed to get over himself.

[Sauron]

Actually sauron it's the other way round. The cheating party is usually the one neglecting, not meeting needs, not investing, an taking for granted. The betrayed is very often the devoted, hard working on the relationship, unappreciated one. It's called being a narcissistic p****. The grass is greener where you water it. The affair looks so great because you put the effort there and not in the marriage. I think you've it all backwards.

 

My sister was neglected for 6 years while her H was in grad school. She worked nights, she minded friends kids so she could look after theirs and earn. She did everything round the house. She looked great. She cooked great. He was grateful but neglectful. She was loyal.

 

She got her chance then when the kids started school and she got a great job with 3 months training out of state. He cheated on her. Six years devotion and ages gone 12 freaking weeks and He says he's neglected. Puh lease. He needed to get over himself.

 

I am not doubting your story, how would I know any of your stories here, except what is posted, which is one side of a 2 sided story. I am not defending cheaters, but the conventional widom here is that the BS had no hand whatsoever in the events leading up to the affair, and I am sorry but I am calling bull **** on that. If a cheating partner makes it known that they are not happy before the affair starts, needs this or that, spends years trying to find common ground or work on issues affecting the marriage/realtionship with no improvement and then decides to find it elsehwere because the only other solution is a complete destruction of your family unit, not sure a BS should be so shocked that his/her partner is cheating. Again didn't say it's right or honorable, it just is and probably has a lot to do with being human with a little evoloutionairy biology involved. One poster mentioned gaining a few pounds, translate to probably more like 50, then expects your partner to live with it, because you married me, or oh, I am working all the time which means I am totally ignoring you, but you have to live with it, or I don't want sex from you for month on end, but guess what you have to live with it because you married me, or I only want sex from you this way forever and ever, and guess what you have to live with becasue you married me. Like I said, if it's a good realtionship then doubtful you have cheating, if it's a great relationship probably zero chance, but if it's mediocre to bad, your asking for it.

[BetrayedH]

Good people can cheat and still be good people. Good people can cheat and still have good morals. Good people can cheat and still make big bucks in the media. There a myriad reasons one steps outside of the marriage. I would be interested if the regulars here that are the cheaters or the betrayed, did you feel like you did everything thing humanly possible and within their power to create a cheat proof realtionship? Did you meet your partners half way? did you engage in frank and direct dialog that something was missing you needed? did you comprise on your positions? did you get out of your comfort zone for sex? did you avoid being complacent and taking your partner for granted? did you give compliments, did you keep yourself physically fit and attractive for your partner?, did you make a huge effort to meet your partners emotional needs? did you communicate your own...just curious?

 

No marriage is perfect. I was a good husband and a good father. I deserved better than what my wife did to me and our children. If she was unhappy, she was obligated to either fix it or divorce me. Saying something would have been a start. Like most WS, she lacked the courage to do either of those things. Cowardice, selfishness, a need for external validation, a decision to cheat, and opportunity is the formula. An imperfect spouse is an excuse, not a reason. The betrayed spouses here understood that marriage isn't perfect (we were in the same not-so-perfect marriage) and despite the imperfections, they stayed committed to being faithful.

[Steen719]

I am not doubting your story, how would I know any of your stories here, except what is posted, which is one side of a 2 sided story. I am not defending cheaters, but the conventional widom here is that the BS had no hand whatsoever in the events leading up to the affair, and I am sorry but I am calling bull **** on that. If a cheating partner makes it known that they are not happy before the affair starts, needs this or that, spends years trying to find common ground or work on issues affecting the marriage/realtionship with no improvement and then decides to find it elsehwere because the only other solution is a complete destruction of your family unit, not sure a BS should be so shocked that his/her partner is cheating. Again didn't say it's right or honorable, it just is and probably has a lot to do with being human with a little evoloutionairy biology involved. One poster mentioned gaining a few pounds, translate to probably more like 50, then expects your partner to live with it, because you married me, or oh, I am working all the time which means I am totally ignoring you, but you have to live with it, or I don't want sex from you for month on end, but guess what you have to live with it because you married me, or I only want sex from you this way forever and ever, and guess what you have to live with becasue you married me. Like I said, if it's a good realtionship then doubtful you have cheating, if it's a great relationship probably zero chance, but if it's mediocre to bad, your asking for it.

 

Are you freaking kidding me? What would you have had me do? I was teaching three classes at a time. I got up and immediately worked. He slept. I worked all day long, no kidding, and he got on facebook. I cooked dinner and he ate it in front of the computer while I ate by myself and then I worked until I went to bed. I was the only one trying to keep a house together and pay for it, including an equity line taken when he could not work. Maybe you are right because despite all of my efforts, he, like you, felt it was more important for me to talk to him. Or wait a minute...could that have been an excuse because he found an ex-gf who sounded sympathetic to the poor man whose wife ignored him and who he said screamed at him? Well....maybe so. Did his character allow him to cheat on his less than perfect wife who had stayed with him despite all of his imperfections? YES, it did.

 

You can dress this up anyway you want to, but what you are saying is that if any of us are less than perfect, then we get what we deserve. Narcissists have a way of feeling they are above everyone else, entitled somehow. Sheesh, your poor wife. She couldn't win if she tried.

 

2 people taking a test and both are failing. One cheats on the test and the other doesn't. You can go into why one does and the other doesn't, talk about their lives, their childhood, how they feel the instructor taught the class, but in the end, one person makes the wrong decision and they cheat. You want to excuse that person for all of the extraneous reasons. Most people who have been betrayed here feel that it is that person's decision no matter what the reasons. Each of us have a choice. Your choice is to cheat on your wife and justify it. So be it. If it is such a great choice and you feel so justified, tell your wife. You are a coward and think you are a prize. UGH

 

OK, I guess I am done with my mini-rant. I am now the one dragging this dead horse around now and that doesn't sit well with me.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

Good people can cheat and still be good people. Good people can cheat and still have good morals. Good people can cheat and still make big bucks in the media. There a myriad reasons one steps outside of the marriage. I would be interested if the regulars here that are the cheaters or the betrayed, did you feel like you did everything thing humanly possible and within their power to create a cheat proof realtionship?

My wife started her A 2 years into the marriage. We were still in the honeymoon phase (albeit the end of the phase), so either one of us having an affair was not on my radar.

 

did you engage in frank and direct dialog that something was missing you needed?

I wasn't missing anything in our marriage. I felt that we had a great relationship/marriage. WW thought the same thing until she met her AP. If anything was needed or unmet, she did not communicate that to me.

 

did you get out of your comfort zone for sex?

We had a great sex in terms of quality and quantity. My WW didn't have an A because of the lack of sex.

 

did you avoid being complacent and taking your partner for granted?

If I did, she never communicated that to me.

 

did you give compliments, did you keep yourself physically fit and attractive for your partner?

I was in great shape at that time, and I'm still in good shape. During that time we spent a lot of time in the gym together and individually.

 

did you make a huge effort to meet your partners emotional needs? did you communicate your own...just curious?

In order for me to make huge efforts to met my wife's needs, she first must communicate to me what those needs are. If I'm not meeting them, then she needs to communicate that to me.

 

My wife had very poor boundaries. She had many male friends while growing up. She did not realize that the rules change once you are married. She developed a crush on her new male friend. After that my wife entered into the fog. I became the bad husband as she compared me (the real guy that she's lived with for years, warts and all) to her new dream boat boyfriend that she only saw at work.

 

Your post sounds like the BS has to bend over backwards to please the spouse. In reality, it is the wayward spouse that rarely puts in any effort to improve the marriage. It's easier and more fun to play around with someone else. My wife was drawn into an A, not pushed into one.

[96nole]

I am not doubting your story, how would I know any of your stories here, except what is posted, which is one side of a 2 sided story. I am not defending cheaters, but the conventional widom here is that the BS had no hand whatsoever in the events leading up to the affair, and I am sorry but I am calling bull **** on that. If a cheating partner makes it known that they are not happy before the affair starts, needs this or that, spends years trying to find common ground or work on issues affecting the marriage/realtionship with no improvement and then decides to find it elsehwere because the only other solution is a complete destruction of your family unit, not sure a BS should be so shocked that his/her partner is cheating. Again didn't say it's right or honorable, it just is and probably has a lot to do with being human with a little evoloutionairy biology involved. One poster mentioned gaining a few pounds, translate to probably more like 50, then expects your partner to live with it, because you married me, or oh, I am working all the time which means I am totally ignoring you, but you have to live with it, or I don't want sex from you for month on end, but guess what you have to live with it because you married me, or I only want sex from you this way forever and ever, and guess what you have to live with becasue you married me. Like I said, if it's a good realtionship then doubtful you have cheating, if it's a great relationship probably zero chance, but if it's mediocre to bad, your asking for it.

 

My ex wife gained a lot of weight during our marriage- I never cheated

 

She worked long hours, a few part time jobs (because she wanted to, not because of finances). I was very neglected- I never cheated

 

in 15 years there were A LOT of times she shot down my 'advances'. I can only think of twice I shot down her advances- I never cheated.

 

According to your logic, I had every reason to cheat.

Did I have an opportunity to cheat? Oh boy, did I ever. But I didn't.

 

I know you said you're not defending cheaters, but your list of justifications implies to give them reason to. But it boils down to that now matter what justification is made, there is no justifying cheating.

[Sauron]

What I am saying is there 2 sides to every story. In here, you get one side. Does anyone here think there spouse/partner might have a different view? I know there is no perfect, I am not a stupid man.

 

The spouse needs to bring his/her unmet needs to his/partners attention? Anybody here ever ask a question, are you happy, do you like our sex life, you missing anything, is there something I am doing not doing?

I choose not to blow up MY family, so what that's my decsion and works for me. I will say in my case, she will not be surprised one bit. I have told her in the past if she can't meet my needs then I will go elsewhere, she prefers not to know. And if you read my posts, I would be fine with her having another man as long as she is discreet. At this stage of life for me its not all or nothing, I know that's may be hard for some of you to grasp.