GorillaTheater Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Simple. He doesn't. End of story. I don't know that I agree with this. Especially over time, I don't see how you avoid it. The trick is not to do it too much, too soon, or too easily. And if you open yourself up at all it's because she's earned that trust. But maybe you were talking about the start of the relationship.
SteveC80 Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 LOL. So how's single life treatin ya? Pretty good I imagine. It is actually.I prefer to stay single i like having freedom and being able to do what i want when i want to do it instead of having to always answer to another person to see if i can Trying to be as humble as possible here i must say i never have a problem getitng women into a bed My manipulation on words works,most women are naive and socially aloof:laugh: 1
KungFuJoe Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Yes he does. Unless he is fine with being permanentley single. I must be a rare exception...a one in a million, I guess.
pteromom Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 to the op's point though why does the man have to open himself up and become vulnerable before the women? Are the womens feelings and ego worth more? Of course not. But SOMEONE has to make the first move. Sometimes a woman does make a first move. But in our social history, men are typically the pursuers. Like it or not, it's just the way it is. You can be angry about it, or you can learn to live in society as it is. If a guy sits around waiting for a woman who will make a first move, he may be sitting around waiting for a long time. It's better to take your fate into your own hands and stand up and get what you want. My advice would be the same for women. 1
KungFuJoe Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 I don't know that I agree with this. Especially over time, I don't see how you avoid it. The trick is not to do it too much, too soon, or too easily. And if you open yourself up at all it's because she's earned that trust. But maybe you were talking about the start of the relationship. Well...I was replying to whoever said that the MAN has to open up first...before the woman. And that's wrong. It doesn't matter what gender you are. You open yourself up when you feel it's right. And sometimes your instincts are wrong and you lose. That's LIFE! Some people are SO afraid of failing,they don't give themselves a chance to win. It's an old cliche...but sometimes those cliches have a very good reason for existing. 2
KungFuJoe Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 It is actually.I prefer to stay single i like having freedom and being able to do what i want when i want to do it instead of having to always answer to another person to see if i can Trying to be as humble as possible here i must say i never have a problem getitng women into a bed My manipulation on words works,most women are naive and socially aloof:laugh: Well...your attitude towards women will certainly guarantee that you remain single...probably for the rest of your life. But since that seems to be what you want, then I guess congratulations are in order.
carhill Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 I'm a bit unclear as to what 'moral pedestal' means, but I think I get the gist of the assertion.... Courting and chasing indicates proactive attraction and romantic/sexual interest; the blend of which varies from man to man, as does the emotional component of such. Some men can exhibit courting/chasing behaviors without feeling anything; others great emotion; others somewhere in the middle. To the extent that the man cares more than the woman does, he is deficient in the power balance of the dynamic. His comfort level with that dynamic is relevant and again varies from man to man. Feeling positive about one's choices and attendant feelings is an important component of health IMO. I personally found caring less to create a healthier balance for my psyche. It balanced better with the care women I courted or intended to court exhibited. I also found 'spreading the love around' amongst a group of women during the get to know phase helped to care less about any one particular woman, in that such care was unhealthily balanced prior. In many ways, the women I've courted, had relationships with and married taught me valuable lessons in this area of interpersonal relationships. I thank them for that.
SteveC80 Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Well...your attitude towards women will certainly guarantee that you remain single...probably for the rest of your life. But since that seems to be what you want, then I guess congratulations are in order. They are,seeing all the married women whove hit on me over the years and even friends wives and what most women will do with some wine and ovulating i know i made the right choice;)
Author AD1980 Posted August 30, 2012 Author Posted August 30, 2012 I'm a bit unclear as to what 'moral pedestal' Meaning neither party knows much about each other yet but the man is chasing and has to assume the women is moral and has the right intentions so he blindly chases while the women sits back and lets the man prove himself to be moral and have the right inntetions
TheFinalWord Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 My one big problem with the whole courting and chasing a women in the begining concept is that it is bascially saying the women should automatically be trusted and put on a pedestal where the guy is trying to prove himself and his intentions to her and not the other way around as much.. Why is a guy not to be trusted till he proves himsef but not the women? Theryes just as many grimey females with bad intentions as there are men out there both sides should pursue 50/50 in the begining of the feeling out process before two people really know each other.. The whole thing seems to be about protecting a womens feelings and well being while the guy has to go in kamikaze style and blindly hope this women hes pursuing isnt just stringing him along or using him.. If you mean that by showing interest in a women, you are making yourself vulnerable then yes. However, a woman will also be making herself vulnerable in welcoming each of your advances. So it's a trade off. But yes, men are supposed to leaders: primarily spiritual and also protector. That's the man's role. Putting others before yourself is a form of servant leadership: the highest level of leadership IMHO. Showing that leadership trait during courting (by courting I assume you mean a woman you see potential LT relationship with) reveals a lot about you as a man. Relationships are give and take. This courting process reveals the give and take potential of the relationship. It tells a lot about the person's character. If you demand that your self-interests be met above your partners, then IMO you are either not ready for a relationship or it's the wrong person. Of course if you "court" a woman and she is not giving you the opening to continue advances then you stop. Yes, there are liars and deceivers in this world. Everything worthwhile involves some measure of risk. 2
KungFuJoe Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Meaning neither party knows much about each other yet but the man is chasing and has to assume the women is moral and has the right intentions so he blindly chases while the women sits back and lets the man prove himself to be moral and have the right inntetions I wish you would stop saying "the man" and just say "myself", "me", or "I".
GorillaTheater Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Meaning neither party knows much about each other yet but the man is chasing and has to assume the women is moral and has the right intentions so he blindly chases while the women sits back and lets the man prove himself to be moral and have the right inntetions If you're asking whether that's a silly thing for a man to do then yes, yes it is.
carhill Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 My version of 'moral pedestal' is that, as a young man, I projected my honorable intentions upon the woman's psyche, artificially presuming and inferring her intentions were similarly honorable and sincere, without any substantive evidence to support those presumptions and/or inferences. Essentially, this was one crux of my then unhealthy giving the benefit of the doubt, concurrently caring too much about those potentials and interactions. The impetuses were from socialization in a trusting and loving environment, but were poorly suited to the realities of the outside world. It took awhile (most of my 20's) to retrain those perspectives.
GorillaTheater Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 To the extent that the man cares more than the woman does, he is deficient in the power balance of the dynamic. His comfort level with that dynamic is relevant and again varies from man to man. Feeling positive about one's choices and attendant feelings is an important component of health IMO. I personally found caring less to create a healthier balance for my psyche. It balanced better with the care women I courted or intended to court exhibited. True for me as well, including, whether unfortunate or not, in my marriage. My wife seems to prefer it, or at least reacts more positively to it. I'm at a loss to explain it, but I recognize it as the truth of my situation.
Jane2011 Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 This is a really good thread, and I just want to say that in the past few dating situations I've had, (in fact, most of them in general), it is true that the guy seems to be "courting" me more so than I am him. I don't see it as him putting me on a moral pedestal or on a pedestal at all, though, so much as it is that he's seducing me, like ThaWholigan said, and that doing just that is fun for him. I know his courting me says nothing about him thinking I'm a good person or 'worth it'. That's how I feel, anyway. A guy or two has courted me and then stopped, probably because he realized he didn't want me after all, or I turned him off in some way. Thus, I'm well aware that any other guy who starts and continues to court me could possibly do the same thing. In the first few months, whatever bond their is...is tenuous. I always used to over-estimate a guy's interest to the point that I thought if he is courting me (even if just two weeks in), "he really really likes me." But now I see his courting as just surface interest that can disappear pretty easily. That certainly keeps me from taking his chasing for granted and thinking he must 'prove himself' to me. In other words, if he is courting me (and, in my world, the word 'courting' is used very, very liberally anyway; I'd say the guys 'initiate' more than I do; they're not necessarily giving me red-carpet, proving-himself-to-me treatment) -- anyway, if he is 'courting' me, I see it as a gift that I'm grateful for and one which could disappear any time in reaction to my proving (through my behavior and just general personality which he is slowly becoming privvy to) to be good enough for continued interest and initiation of contact.
threebyfate Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 My one big problem with the whole courting and chasing a women in the begining concept is that it is bascially saying the women should automatically be trusted and put on a pedestal where the guy is trying to prove himself and his intentions to her and not the other way around as much.. Why is a guy not to be trusted till he proves himsef but not the women? Theryes just as many grimey females with bad intentions as there are men out there both sides should pursue 50/50 in the begining of the feeling out process before two people really know each other.. The whole thing seems to be about protecting a womens feelings and well being while the guy has to go in kamikaze style and blindly hope this women hes pursuing isnt just stringing him along or using him..The flaw in the premise of this post is that it assumes investment on the side of the man. So then, why is this guy investing, prior to knowing anything about the woman? Taking action doesn't equate to investment. 1
Jane2011 Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Wanted to add this bold part to my post (above): I don't see it as him putting me on a moral pedestal or on a pedestal at all, though, so much as it is that he's seducing me, like ThaWholigan said, and that doing just that is fun for him. [if I'm to believe what many people, even many guys themselves, say about guys...it's that they like to win things or conquer things, sometimes things they're not even sure they want all that much, just to see if they can.] I know his courting me says nothing about him thinking I'm a good person or 'worth it'. That's how I feel, anyway. A guy or two has courted me and then stopped, probably because he realized he didn't want me after all, or I turned him off in some way. Thus, I'm well aware that any other guy who starts and continues to court me could possibly do the same thing. In the first few months, whatever bond their is...is tenuous.
fortyninethousand322 Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Some people in some contexts need to be put on a pedestal. If you're a low status male, why would you not put a superior being (a woman) on a pedestal? You have to earn her respect and earn her desire to spend time with you. Otherwise you're just a burden.
todreaminblue Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 My one big problem with the whole courting and chasing a women in the begining concept is that it is bascially saying the women should automatically be trusted and put on a pedestal where the guy is trying to prove himself and his intentions to her and not the other way around as much.. Why is a guy not to be trusted till he proves himsef but not the women? Theryes just as many grimey females with bad intentions as there are men out there both sides should pursue 50/50 in the begining of the feeling out process before two people really know each other.. The whole thing seems to be about protecting a womens feelings and well being while the guy has to go in kamikaze style and blindly hope this women hes pursuing isnt just stringing him along or using him.. why would a male pursue a grimy female and whose fault is that its a matter of trust getting to know someone isnt that what you find out when you get to know someone..you can tsee trust it happens with the grace fo god and honesty..society tells women these days be men go get the men......does that make moralistic sense to you? I am the biggest female kamikaze........ i have jumped out of a helicoptor into water that felt like concrete donned a fire suit gone into a pitch black hull of a ship filled with smoke i have scaled down cliffs with out ropes and hung on by my fingertips is too much to ask as a woman that a man might court me appreciate me get to know me and trust me then......am i asking too much or should i show him how far i can swim how i scale down cliffs without ropes what tricks do i need to show him he can trust me...he would find out all he has to is ask......i reserve my kamikaze skills when someone tries to put that man down for asking me out or puts him down in front of me in anyway.......the kamikaze in me would come out and kick ass....i would win with words....they wouldnt put him down again ....adn in that i say.....TRUST ME...deb 1
Badsingularity Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 If you're a low status male, why would you not put a superior being (a woman) on a pedestal? You have to earn her respect and earn her desire to spend time with you. It should go both ways. Also. A guy reffering to himself as a low status male and to women as "superior beings" isn't going to be able to earn a womens respect. 1
Pyro Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) My one big problem with the whole courting and chasing a women in the begining concept is that it is bascially saying the women should automatically be trusted and put on a pedestal where the guy is trying to prove himself and his intentions to her and not the other way around as much.. Why is a guy not to be trusted till he proves himsef but not the women? Theryes just as many grimey females with bad intentions as there are men out there both sides should pursue 50/50 in the begining of the feeling out process before two people really know each other.. The whole thing seems to be about protecting a womens feelings and well being while the guy has to go in kamikaze style and blindly hope this women hes pursuing isnt just stringing him along or using him.. Not sure how any of that is automatically being said. As far as courting and chasing goes: no woman is worth it if she is going to make you chase her or make you jump through hoops to get to her. Don't sit back and expect her to come to you either. Edited August 31, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Emilia Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 True for me as well, including, whether unfortunate or not, in my marriage. My wife seems to prefer it, or at least reacts more positively to it. I'm at a loss to explain it, but I recognize it as the truth of my situation. It's about your expectations towards her. She is trying to take the pressure off herself
A O Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 My one big problem with the whole courting and chasing a women in the begining concept is that it is bascially saying the women should automatically be trusted and put on a pedestal where the guy is trying to prove himself and his intentions to her and not the other way around as much.. The courting process, especially men having to prove themselves to women - they're just throwbacks to days gone by. One could argue that there were good reasons for those situations back then but they largely do not apply now days. Things are changing but these type of changes take time. There is absolutely nothing stopping men from behaving in the same manner (in this instance, getting women to prove themselves) as women do. Getting women to chase, or as I see that - initiate contact - is going to take time also, but to me, that element pales in comparison to ensuring that women are as worthy of male companionship as much as women ensure that men are as worthy of theirs.
GorillaTheater Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 It's about your expectations towards her. She is trying to take the pressure off herself I'm not sure I follow; could you explain this a little more?
KungFuJoe Posted August 31, 2012 Posted August 31, 2012 I put my wife on a pedestal. You know why? Because she doesn't expect me to.
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