learning to trust.

[raea]

Hey all! I dont normally do this, but I need to stop being so hard headed and start listening to others. I really want honest feedback, not just being told what I want to hear and Im finding that very difficult with people in life I speak with.

 

I have been dating my boyfriend for a little over half a year. I thought we were getting along great- my previous trust issues seemed to not follow him in the door as they used to and I felt comfortable for the first time in a relationship rather than jealous and posessive. (I have been previously married, and been in some bad relationships and so I have struggled with letting the past stay in the past and not influence the present.)

 

This was great for a while, until a few weeks ago. We went away on a week long vacation together. I woke up around 530 am and he was no where to be found, and so being sleepy and not thinking clearly I freaked out. I am ashamed, but I will admit I grabbed his phone which was there and snooped. He had a text message from someone I had never heard him speak of asking him where he was because she needed help. She then stated she had just broken up with her **** buddy. (her terms, not mine.) He replied, "well I'm sorr y to hear that. I would offer my services but my lady friend would probably disapprove." They went on bantering, talking about him being on vacation with me. She said, oh my gosh how sweet that you would take her, to which he replied yeah you should tell her that. She said, any girl who doesnt see how sweet you are is crazy. He said, Yeah, she is crazy.

 

I had read enough at that point. I began to get upset, so I took a walk and a shower to calm down. He returned to the room and I said to him that i was highly upset. I admitted that I broke his trust by going through his phone, and that I shouldn't have done it. I then confronted him on this conversation. He stated she is a former co-worker who was fired. They rarely talk, they see each other less and they have always made those kinds of jokes.

 

I was upset for a lot of the day. I cried, he cried and we talked. We talked a lot about other things as well, ways to fix some problems we hadn't addressed. When it came to her, he said it wouldn't happen again and that she meant nothing. He tried to pick up the phone to have me call her, and i stopped him and said it was between him and I. He said I meant more to him than that, and he would address it by no longer speaking to her. I encouraged him no to. I encouraged him to simply address her by informing her jokes of that kind weren't acceptable because they disrepected our relationship and he said that she didnt mean anything and he knew from them on I'd always equate her with the text so he'd rather just not associate with her. I dropped it at this point because he got frustrated when I tried to sway him and said I was beating a dead horse. He also said he was bothered that I never trusted him, and i told him trust is earned not given but I would trust him and I hoped he wouldnt screw me with that.

 

Flash forward to today. I have been working long hours as has he and I've expressed my concerns in that I don't feel close to him and that I miss him. He always reciprocates and says the same. We had a nice chat, but then at the end something crossed my mind. I said, Can I ask you a question without you thinking it means I dont trust you or without you getting mad? He said yes. I then asked if he had seen this girl or talked to her lately. He said that she stopped by his work last week, for 5 minutes, to bring him bacon which was a birthday gift for him (whatever, its odd but I dont even want to question that.) I informed him that it hurt me that he did so and never brought it up to me.

 

We have now been arguing literally all day. He says he doesnt feel he needs to check in with me everytime he sees someone. I said he doesnt, but if he purposely says he will not see her as a solution to a problem and then he sees her i feel I deserve enough respect to be told. He says that I am blowing this out of proportion, and that he didnt even have to tell me he saw her- he could have lied. I asked him why he would want to be in a relationship where lying was better than honesty, and he admitted he often tells me things I want to hear. This upset me even more. I then told him it hurt that he said he would never see her again with the sole intention of shutting me up, and that he never planned to follow through. I said it hurts me and it makes me wonder WHY i should trust someone who will say things they don't plan to truly do just to appease another. I said, you always tell me you wont lie or cheat on me either and sayign one thing and not following through could lead to me questioning those other things you say.

 

For the record, I really don't believe he would cheat on me. I asked him the question because i knew he would see her again, and I knew when he made the statement it was ridiculous which is why I tried to get him NOT to commit to it. However, despite knowing that, I am still angry that he said it with no intention of follow through. He has told me he will not apologize because he feels he did nothing wrong, and that he will continue to be friends with her. He said he will tell me what he feels from here on instead of what I want to hear.

 

My dilemma stems from this. I want to trust him, but I feel I trusted him to do that before and he let me down. I already dont trust easy, and now i feel I have reason to be suspicious which may just foster my insecurities. I want to work this out with him, but I am fearful we are both too stubborn and we aren't seeing through the others eye.

 

Any advice? Sorry so long, but I wanted to convey that I know we both did wrong and I feel we are now at a standstill that I dont wish to be at.

[midkirby]

I went through a similar situation with my boyfriend. I found explicit emails from one of his exes. After a big blowout, he apologized. I asked him to tell her to back off and those messages were inappropriate to send to someone with a girlfriend. He contacted her and she sent an email saying that she was drunk, apologized and said she didn't mean to cause problems between us. She lives about 5 hours away, so she is no real threat and from what he tells me, she has no class either.

 

Since that time, he and I are much closer than before this. Our relationship is perfect and I have no issues with trust and I will never read his messages again. I too have had messages from exes during the time we have been together. No one can control what another person sends them. I didn't ask him to break all communication with her, but he did out of respect for me.

 

Honestly, you have to accept his friendship with other females. By the sound of their texts, it doesn't sound like anything is going on. I would be a little suspicious of her bringing him a birthday gift, as it sounds like she likes him a lot. You have to have faith in him and stop questioning him. He was honest when he said that she came by his work.

 

He is with you and took you on vacation.... Not her. He wants to be with you. If you keep questioning him, it will push him away. No one wants to have a girlfriend who tells him who he can be friends with. I know it is hard to trust, but you have to.

 

If you suffer from a little bit of low self-esteem, find a way to boost it up some.

[raea]

You're right about a lot of that. My concerns with him are more than just the convo between him, I feel like it indicates bigger issues.

 

I am concerned that he told me he wouldnt speak with her anymore, and knew that he would. To me, he misrepresented information with full awareness. I consider this a lie, he says he did nothing wrong.

 

I am not concerned that she is approaching him. He's attractive, or so I think! But I don't think his response was appropriate, and he doesn't see a problem with his response either. I said that I can understand we see differently, but I would like to think out of respect he won't make jokes anymore of that nature. He says i'm overreacting. He also sees no issues in being friends with her - which I am okay with - but I expressed that since he said they wouldnt talk again, I would have appreciated when he told me she stopped by his work. He says he did nothing wrong and will not say anything else about it.

 

 

Ive always accepted his friendships with other girls. He is going out of town this weekend to a beach house with many girls, I cannot go due to work, and I have never been jealous or upset with that. I just asked for honesty and open communication, which means saying what he means and meaning what he says. I don't know If I'm overreacting, or if I have a right to feel as though I didn't receive that. I've told him we both need to act in manners that respect eachother and preserves the trust, I know I'm not innocent, but I'd like him to meet me half way and by him repeating he has done nothing wrong I'm not sure we'll ever get to the same page.

[BetrayedH]

I see two things here.

 

1. You have trust issues from previous relationships that are, in my humble opinion, making you go a little over the top with this particular situation.

 

2. You BF has loose boundaries and probably does need to learn a little something about the importance of real honesty in a real relationship.

 

I think it's important to communicate to him that you have trust issues and to ask him to help you with them. His current reaction is not helping and yir overreaction is probably pushing him that way. Use this as an opprtunity to connect with each other. He is not actually cheating so work this to the benefit of the relationship instead of arguing.

 

I recommend the book, Not Just Friends. It will give some real insight about appropriate boundaries. By going this route, he learns to be sensitive to what makes you uncomfortable (cheating is rampant and needs to be dealt with proactively - this is why you are a nervous person) and you can do it this way safely as you both learn together how to better protect your relationship.

 

Good luck.

[raea]

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

I know I'm going over the top. I told him that first thing, also. I guess I hoped my prefacing it with that would help him to understand my concern. I realize I'm crazy, and I realize it seems like a little issue but I've seen many little issues spiral into more.

 

We took the day to cool off and just finally spoke. We've agreed to work on it. He agreed that he would be entirely honest with me, even if he feels its not important. In return, I've agreed to step back some. I'm not sure we're on the same page, though I don't know how else to see if we are than to try.

 

Thanks for the ideas, guys.

[BetrayedH]

Try that book if you have the chance. In my view, it should be required reading before anyone is issued a marriage license. It will help you set a stable foundation.

 

Otherwise this open communication needs to continue. Good job. Unresolved resentment will kill a relationship. You HAVE TO address these issue. Glad you did.

[strongnrelaxed]

Raea, you should leave him immediately. Please, I am asking you on behalf of men everywhere. You seem like a nice girl. Do not ruin this man's life like this.

 

So many guys want to be good to their women, but they just don't hide and sneak as well as women do. Men are more likely than women to leave their phones open and to admit they find a woman attractive. Men are raised to be honest with each other. They don't know until they are older that women are raised to NOT tell the truth and to hide everything and that men cannot be honest with women the way they are with each other.

 

To betray the basic trust of privacy with a cell phone or computer is a failure that is unforgivable. It is an egregious invasion of his most basic privacy and a very, VERY bad sign of things to come for this young man.

 

He sounds too young to know what he wants yet. Rather than giving him the room he needs to make a good decision, you are shaming and guilt-tripping him into a relationship with you. How do you think this will turn out? What could possibly be your purpose for doing such shameful things to this guy?

 

Let him be free. Let him have friends and enjoy life. He should be able to have male and female friends all he wants.If he is going to cheat, he will do it one way or the other. The quickest way to get him to cheat? Be jealous. Be snoopy. Be insecure. Check his cell phone and nag him into submission.

 

Do not take this as a mean or harsh statement. The truth is usually painful to hear. But it is the best medicine. I don't expect you to understand this, because you are a woman, but men value truth, candor, privacy. You have violated all three. Don't continue to be a perpetrator on this poor unsuspecting guy.

 

Please. I am begging you. Any men with life experience who are reading this should chime in at this point. Let's stop the craziness while it is still possible - Do it for your sons.

[raea]

I think it is quite pompous to say I wouldn't understand something because I am female. Men and women may seemingly act different while in circumstances, but I don't buy into gender stereotypes nor would I ever insinuate that because someone is different than I that they just "wouldn't get it." There is a thing called perspective, and most people, if they give it a chance can grasp another's even if it is not something they personally have had.

 

I also think that your opinion about something being unforgivable is just that - an opinion. I respect your right to have it, and I respect my right to reject that. I have never shamed anyone into staying into a relationship, and after we talked I left him alone to allow him all the time he desired to make a decision. I do not nag. I state my opinions, I state why I am likely having the feelings that I am having, and I let it be what it will after that. I am not indicating that I have any clue what he is thinking, but it is he who re initiated contact, expressed his concerns, and said that he wants to continue the relationship. . If he changes his mind, he has every right to do so and I would understand. I apologize for making mistakes, but to act like someone cannot change is completely irresponsible. You cannot force someone to change, no, but if someone desires to make a better decision then it is entirely possible to follow through on that. You are indicating that one frost makes a winter - if that is the case, should someone screen every single person they plan to start a relationship with for certain behaviors and write them off because they were engaged in that activity during the past?

 

And, I again have to respectfully disagree with your comment on honesty. I am entirely honest with my partner, with friends and with family. I would rather be told something honest than lied to because "I wouldn't understand." As I stated above, I think it's disrespectful to not give someone the chance to even try to understand and assume they are too illogical or stupid to get it. But to each their own.

 

Again, I appreciate you taking the time to respond, and as I do with all information I'll give it thought, but I can't say that I see myself agreeing.

 

BetrayedH- I actually ordered the book and it arrived just a few moments ago. I'm looking forward to reading it and gaining some new insight. Again, thanks for the recommendation.

[strongnrelaxed]

Raea, you sound like a reasonable and decent young woman. I may have been a bit harsh in my original assessment, but I do not back down from what I said. I cannot know what is in your heart. I have just learned over a lifetime to ignore people's intentions and what they say about themselves. EVERYONE thinks they are great and they always mean well.

 

What I pay very close attention to is their behaviors. In your case, your behaviors were that you went on your man's computer and found pictures there. You looked at them (apparently extensively according to your own account), and you went online here to discuss this private matter with others.

 

These are not evil behaviors, but they are not trustworthy in my opinion and I bet many men would agree with me. The fact that you disagree with me is exactly why I say you don't understand. Men cannot understand female hormone and emotional changes. Women cannot understand men's need for truth and honesty. Your disagreement is exactly proof of that.

 

Think about this carefully for the sake of your own relationship. I am not a bad guy trying to piss you off. I am trying to point out to young men the things that women do that men should pay super close attention to. They are seemingly innocuous and innocent. They are never intended or intentional, or on purpose. It is always an accident, or a matter of fact. Women very rarely fess up to such things unless they are anonymously doing so. Find me one. I challenge you!

 

Unfortunately your generation is getting a huge shaft left by my generation. It is sad and I am here trying to right some of the wrongs both by men and women.

 

Hate me if you must. But I encourage you to reflect on this. Never snoop again. Your dignity will suffer and so will your relationship. I know you said you didn't so let's just say that you should never do this in the future - is that an ok compromise for you?

 

And give him his space. His files are his. You are getting him as a man. Do not try to change him. Accept his as he is or leave him.

 

Just one man's opinion.

 

Good luck!

[raea]

I think you are confused. (I mean that honestly, not maliciously.) I absolutely admitted to snooping, and within the 30 minute period of doing so I went to him and admitted to to him. It was absolutely not involving photos, it was a text message with a female friend in which she said she dumped her friends with benefits and responded with a statement indicating he would "help" her but I may be upset. I don't know if that's relevant, but I figured since we're not on the same page I'd speed it up since it is long to read. I did agree that the behavior is not trust worthy, hence telling him immediately and hoping to find some different insight.

 

I agree about giving him space. I need space myself, as well, to assess why I felt the need to look and if this is good for either of us. And I also agree that snooping can never occur again, and I have resolved that I would leave before I felt the need to do so. Clearly there is something wrong, whether it be with his behavior or with my mind, if I am snooping and neither of us should deal with that. Again, I cannot change past behavior but I responded to point out that the future hasn't occurred yet and I think it is unfair to say that it will continue and I must leave him because I screwed up once. I once touched a hot stove , and it was a mistake, but I learned and never did it again.

 

I appreciate your feedback, I truly do. And I understand that you are right in stating most women that do this behavior, lie, and try to imply it is noble. I do not lie about it, and I do not find it acceptable or noble. I admit it was a huge mistake, and I have spent much time pondering the motives behind it on my part as well as what it brought forward. I guess, my point is this - yes, there are many ****ty women out there. But, there are also ****ty men. I understand having guards up (I clearly do, or I wouldnt have mistrusted him for no reason), but I'd like to also never be jaded enough to believe that every single person I meet is going to act in a specific manner because *most* of that gender do.

 

As someone who employs the practice of behavior analysis in my work, I understand not looking at intentions or thoughts as proof of the end state. But I also caution against assuming that you know the intention simply by viewing the behavior and consequence. There are sometimes other factors that we simply don't see right away.

[Ugh1]

Hi Raea,

I think strongnrelaxed got confused because he was posting responses on my problem and your problem at the same time. (I had checked the timestamp earlier)

I'm the one who went on my boyfriend's computer and found pictures of ex-girlfriends' private parts. He posted just about the exact same nonsense, but got highly offended when I didn't respond as politely as you did.

When I went to look at the posts again to make sure I wasn't just responding emotionally to him, he had removed them all. But, he flat out said, "all women are liars" and spouted a bunch of crap about trust and valor and invasion of privacy and such. It was offensive crap like I can't help being a liar because I am a woman and women are genetically predispositioned to lie.(not verbatim, but pretty darn close.

He is a woman hater who was hurt when he went snooping and found out his wife was cheating on him. Now, all women are liars and apparantly, only men can snoop.

Anyway, just wanted to tell ya not to put too much stock in what he says. He admitted that he was biased because of his past, but didn't think what he said wasn't the truth either.

As for your problem... I hope this works out for you. Sounds like you are on the road to figuring it out. Those texts would have highly offended me. It would hurt my feelings to know that the man who says he loves me is expressing THOSE thoughts about me to another woman.

Good luck to you.

[Ugh1]

I didn't know this, but I guess there are moderators that probably removed what he posted.

[strongnrelaxed]

I didn't know this, but I guess there are moderators that probably removed what he posted.

 

IS this really how they treat honest posts here? I would hope not.

 

I may be strident in expressing my opinions. But I have strong values and share them.

 

One example is this- I think that telling a lie should be illegal. I also think it should be one of the ten commandments. You may think that this is bizarre and crazy. But I feel strongly that honesty is very very important.

 

I wish I had something to smoke too!

 

I was posting late at night (couldn't sleep) so perhaps I am guilty of having one post blur into another. But I am so sick of people snooping and justifying it. This is very wrong to me.

 

If you find something that supports your suspicions that does not erase the wrongness of this invasion of privacy. I know now the OP did not intend it - supposedly. But it is frustrating to be able to get off the hook on such things by saying "I swear, i didn't MEAN to do it"

 

Men are held to a different standard.

 

If my expression of this deeply held value should be moderated then so be it. But I will keep trying.

[strongnrelaxed]

Hi Raea, Now, all women are liars and apparantly, only men can snoop.

 

Anyway, just wanted to tell ya not to put too much stock in what he says. He admitted that he was biased because of his past, but didn't think what he said wasn't the truth either.

 

 

These are good comments. I hope that men read these things. I never said that all women are liars. And I never said that only men can snoop. (This is called a stawman argument).

 

Perhaps you should not place too much stock in what I have to say. I agree! Yes, I am biased because of my past. This is called disclosure and honesty. Your response to this was the say that "what he said wasn't the truth"

 

Thanks for saying this explicitly.

 

Young men. Pay close attention here. This is what you are facing. Come to your own conclusions. But pay CLOSE attention to the tactics.

 

Thanks again Ugh.

[strongnrelaxed]

Of for the love of..

 

I want some of want this guy is smoking - he's obviously delusional.

 

Perhaps I am delusional. I can't see how my advocating for young men to think twice about marriage is delusional.

 

Unfortunately this is one of those pieces of advice we ignore until it is too late.

 

I ignored the old school men who warned me about all of these things. And I paid a hefty price.

 

Perhaps my tone is harsh or my way of expressing my opinion is a bit over the top. I do this on purpose to draw attention to the point. I would prefer a calm and rational discussion of such things. But that does not work. You know this to be true.

 

I always tell people to ignore what I have to say. But you cannot say you weren't warned. Of course women will disagree with this.

 

Men - pay close attention. Not so much to my words, but to women's reaction to them.

 

This is where the truth can be found.

[strongnrelaxed]

I understand that you are right in stating most women that do this behavior, lie, and try to imply it is noble...viewing the behavior and consequence. There are sometimes other factors that we simply don't see right away.

 

Gee I hope I did not say that lies were noble! That is the opposite of how I feel.

 

I agree that there are factors we do not see. Thanks for pointing this out, because i did not give that perspective the respect it deserves in my rant.

 

I also agree that not all future men or women should be held accountable for the behaviors of those from the past. But as bad as stereotypes can be, they can help protect us too. Again, rather than look at genders, I try to look at things like behaviors and incentives. What is a person most likely to do in a given circumstance? Are the incentives in place for them to lie, cheat, steal, murder? This doesn't mean that people will follow these incentives, it is just something to consider and to watch very carefully.

 

Young men have some incentives and women have others. Times are changing, but human nature is not.

 

The better we are at understanding these things the better off we will be in life and in love.

[Ugh1]

These are good comments. I hope that men read these things. I never said that all women are liars. And I never said that only men can snoop. (This is called a stawman argument).

 

Perhaps you should not place too much stock in what I have to say. I agree! Yes, I am biased because of my past. This is called disclosure and honesty. Your response to this was the say that "what he said wasn't the truth"

 

Thanks for saying this explicitly.

 

Young men. Pay close attention here. This is what you are facing. Come to your own conclusions. But pay CLOSE attention to the tactics.

 

Thanks again Ugh.

 

This is all I have from his original post because it was removed:

Quote:

Originally Posted by strongnrelaxed

I don't hide my bias here. I think women are all liars.

[strongnrelaxed]

This is all I have from his original post because it was removed:

I don't hide my bias here. I think women are all liars.

 

I am not sure why my post would be removed. But I am not surprised. What I say can be controversial and frankly shocking. Especially to women I would imagine.

 

I do believe that all women are liars. I failed, however, to acknowledge that men lie too. I just think that the genders lie differently for different reasons and at different rates.

 

It has been SHOCKING to me to hear from women how often they lie. Don't take my word for it - ask around! Why kill the messenger? If I were a woman saying this it might be easier to accept. I understand this.

 

It is also not shocking to me that someone who openly admits a bias is kind of "outed" even though I am outing myself. This is the way the game is played. Honesty, candor and frank discussions are demonized, edited and removed, and nice, supportive, "proper" discussions are left in place.

 

Sure there are controversial posts that are left up. But just enough to make it look like this is an open forum for discussion. The rest is edited.

 

You know this to be true. Why be critical of me for this?

[Ugh1]

It isn't what you said, it was how rude you were when you said it. Yes, you are supposed to be polite on here. My posts were removed as well. I guess I wasn't polite enough either.

I was simply pointing out that you said, "I never said that all women are liars." When in fact, you did say that.

I am getting from the rules on here that you just have to be polite in your responses.

[Forever Learning]

I see two things here.

 

1. You have trust issues from previous relationships that are, in my humble opinion, making you go a little over the top with this particular situation.

 

2. You BF has loose boundaries and probably does need to learn a little something about the importance of real honesty in a real relationship.

 

I think it's important to communicate to him that you have trust issues and to ask him to help you with them. His current reaction is not helping and yir overreaction is probably pushing him that way. Use this as an opprtunity to connect with each other. He is not actually cheating so work this to the benefit of the relationship instead of arguing.

 

I recommend the book, Not Just Friends. It will give some real insight about appropriate boundaries. By going this route, he learns to be sensitive to what makes you uncomfortable (cheating is rampant and needs to be dealt with proactively - this is why you are a nervous person) and you can do it this way safely as you both learn together how to better protect your relationship.

 

Good luck.

 

Good advice. I plan to check out the book as well, because I am interested in books dealing with boundaries. Thanks.

[Later82012]

Raea, I think snooping is 100% okay if you have reasons for suspicion. You do not have to feel guilty about it.