Update - 3 and half years later

[tojaz]

Perhaps the solution is for me to change who I am and start being more selfish.

 

Willow, I was seriously tempted to reply point for point on your last post, but I'm pretty sure you have a pretty good idea what I would say, so I'm just replying to what I quoted.

 

You have every to be a little selfish. Everyone does at times. I don't think you should change yourself though, especially based on what you have observed on a forum of failed marriages!

 

You've been here a long time Willow, and you've been involved in a lot of threads and helped a lot of people.

 

So fully admitting that i am taking a little liberty with your post, are you really suggesting that your answer may be to emulate the women that have sent so many men to this forum??? That doesn't sound like a solution, and it sure doesn't sound like Willow.

 

TOJAZ

[Steadfast]

I know what I want and I know who I am and I know where I want to be...getting there is not necessarily 100% in my own control...life doesn't work like that and if it has for you,,,then you are extremely lucky.

 

A relationship is not the be all and end all and the world does not fold up around me because I do not have one. There is NOTHING wrong with wanting love in your life yet I am made to feel that I am abnormal for desiring this.

 

100% correct on all points. There is nothing wrong with wanting a relationship. I also align with your statement that it isn't entirely under your own control. It does take two, doesn't it? That's the trick, but it's also what makes falling in love and romance so magical when it happens.

 

Not sure who's making you feel abnormal. Trippi's post was extremely insightful and you know she cares for you willow. The only thing that I find off-putting is the occasional negativity. Then again, writing is very therapeutic. Why shouldn't you vent? Can't hurt. Everyone else does.

 

So what is it about me that men do not like? Well, perhaps it is simply this....I'm not a self centred, manipulative, cheating b****. Look at any o fmy friends who are in relationships or about to get married and what do I see? High maintainance, selfish, manipulative women several of which are already cheating either emotionally or physically on their partners or have done in the past and not been caught by them.

 

Take a look around this forum and do you see a pattern? Because I do! Men seem to like this KIND of women.

 

Men like hot women willow. It's often said that women dress to impress other women, well, men date hot women to impress other men. Because most men are so dumb (and have a mommy complex) they don't really stop to consider all the red flags. Their adoring mother would never hurt them, so it's a profound shock when Ms. Entitled pulls the rug out.

 

Most never learn, but some do. Tojaz and Gunny are great examples of men who understand the difference between real integrity and advertised beauty. I know and you know both men and women of great substance exist, and the world is improved when they come together. How to play it until the whens and ifs are answered? That's up to you. But you know this too.

 

Until then, you've got friends. A poor substitute perhaps, but we're here.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Steadfast

[willowthewisp]

 

 

So fully admitting that i am taking a little liberty with your post, are you really suggesting that your answer may be to emulate the women that have sent so many men to this forum??? That doesn't sound like a solution, and it sure doesn't sound like Willow.

 

TOJAZ

 

Yes that is what I am suggesting to an extent, I am not suggesting I would ever cheat on anyone though.

 

All I'm saying is that whenever I meet a man or date a man I am constantly thinking about his feelings, his comfort about how he would like to be treated.

 

For example, if a guy offers to buy me a drink in a bar unless I am seriously interested in him and I mean seriously interested, I decline. I do this because I do not think it would be right for me to take advantage by accepting a drink from someone whom I may not want to see again. Now, my friends, incidently the one's who ARE in relationships or even engaged, will deliberately flirt with a guy, play with his ego and emotions in order to GET him to buy them drinks all eveing, with absolutely no intention of ever seeing him again.

 

That's the difference. That is one example, I do the same when I am dating. I don't let a guy pick up the cheque and if I do I make sure I pay for the next round or the next date etc. I constantly think about whether my feelings are strong enough for me to replying to texts or phone calls as regularly as I am or how many dates during one week I should see him, because I don't want to cause HIM any pain or upset. I am careful how much emotion or feeling I express to him until I am sure I like him because I am thinking about HIM not me.

 

I'm not doing these things because I want him to like me. I am doing them because I don't want to cause anyone hurt or pain. I am thinking how I would like to be treated by another and behaving that way.

 

My friends who all have relationships don't behave like this. They behave how ever they want, they GET what they want because they behave like they are entitled to it. They don't CARE about how their partner feels. Just like the women on this forum have who have not been GETTING what they want from their spouse so they leave, go elsewhere etc. What amazes me is that men CHOOSE these women and then they are shocked when they walk away because "they don't feel special anymore". But perhaps it is like Steadfast says below...see below...

 

 

Men like hot women willow. It's often said that women dress to impress other women, well, men date hot women to impress other men. Because most men are so dumb (and have a mommy complex) they don't really stop to consider all the red flags. Their adoring mother would never hurt them, so it's a profound shock when Ms. Entitled pulls the rug out.

 

 

Are you familar with the phrase "tidy" Steadfast? Or is it a Brit term that is not used in the US?

 

Well, in case you aren't, "tidy" is a term a guy uses along with others like "fit", to describe a women who is "hot", "sexy", "stunning" aka attractive.

 

I am often told "you're right tidy you are aren't you", "***** you're fit as ****". Just a couple of comments I have recieved more than once on an eveing out. Dates refer to me in similar, if some more reserved terms.

 

I'm not telling you this to make myself sound good or to be big headed but rather to say that I do not think HOW I look is the issue at play here in why men do not like me.

 

There is more to it than that and I think you eluded to it when you said Ms Entitled!

 

It's my attitude, I'm too NICE! See above.

Edited September 7, 2012 by willowthewisp

[Steadfast]

I have spend a good amount of time working in the UK, especially up north, near Hinckley. I've heard most of the terms. They do rub off on a person.

 

I'm not telling you this to make myself sound good or to be big headed but rather to say that I do not think HOW I look is the issue at play here in why men do not like me.

 

There is more to it than that and I think you eluded to it when you said Ms Entitled!

 

It's my attitude, I'm too NICE! See above.

 

Dpn't change. If you do, the world will have sucked all the life and individuality from you. Too many cave in to fit in. Uniformity is boring.

[tojaz]

Yes that is what I am suggesting to an extent, I am not suggesting I would ever cheat on anyone though.

 

All I'm saying is that whenever I meet a man or date a man I am constantly thinking about his feelings, his comfort about how he would like to be treated.

 

For example, if a guy offers to buy me a drink in a bar unless I am seriously interested in him and I mean seriously interested, I decline. I do this because I do not think it would be right for me to take advantage by accepting a drink from someone whom I may not want to see again. Now, my friends, incidently the one's who ARE in relationships or even engaged, will deliberately flirt with a guy, play with his ego and emotions in order to GET him to buy them drinks all eveing, with absolutely no intention of ever seeing him again.

 

That's the difference. That is one example, I do the same when I am dating. I don't let a guy pick up the cheque and if I do I make sure I pay for the next round or the next date etc. I constantly think about whether my feelings are strong enough for me to replying to texts or phone calls as regularly as I am or how many dates during one week I should see him, because I don't want to cause HIM any pain or upset. I am careful how much emotion or feeling I express to him until I am sure I like him because I am thinking about HIM not me.

 

I'm not doing these things because I want him to like me. I am doing them because I don't want to cause anyone hurt or pain. I am thinking how I would like to be treated by another and behaving that way.

 

My friends who all have relationships don't behave like this. They behave how ever they want, they GET what they want because they behave like they are entitled to it. They don't CARE about how their partner feels. Just like the women on this forum have who have not been GETTING what they want from their spouse so they leave, go elsewhere etc. What amazes me is that men CHOOSE these women and then they are shocked when they walk away because "they don't feel special anymore". But perhaps it is like Steadfast says below...see below...

 

 

Willow, I don't think your going to find what your looking for by scamming drinks and and becoming a picky date (yes, oversimplified).

 

When you refer to the women your comparing yourself to, how many of the started out that way? How many attracted their partner by being that way, or did that happen later? Personally I wouldn't even hold the door for a woman who treated me that way.

 

I'm wondering if it's the group your spending your time with Willow. The people you describe will most definitely attract a certain sort of man, more like the ones you have been finding. I know I wouldn't approach someone acting that way, and I'm probably not going to approach someone who isn't but is in the midst of a group of women who are. I guess I would call it being guilty by association........ but your the lawyer!

 

TOJAZ

[willowthewisp]

Willow, I don't think your going to find what your looking for by scamming drinks and and becoming a picky date (yes, oversimplified).

 

When you refer to the women your comparing yourself to, how many of the started out that way? How many attracted their partner by being that way, or did that happen later? Personally I wouldn't even hold the door for a woman who treated me that way.

 

I'm wondering if it's the group your spending your time with Willow. The people you describe will most definitely attract a certain sort of man, more like the ones you have been finding. I know I wouldn't approach someone acting that way, and I'm probably not going to approach someone who isn't but is in the midst of a group of women who are. I guess I would call it being guilty by association........ but your the lawyer!

 

TOJAZ

 

They've always been that way...men LOVE it!

 

I go out with all kinds of people, not just this type so no it's not because of who I am with. It's simply because I don't behave like them that I don't get dates...this I am really staring to beleive. It's like men are "into" being treated badly, it's as though they think these women are special because they act special/entitled. They seem to enjoy being knocked back...it's the chase I guess.

 

I don't want to be alone for the rest of my life so if this is what I have to become...it will be what I will become because one thing I know for sure...men are not going to change...they will always go for a women who makes them WORK for them, trates them badly and makes them feel grateful for any snippet of attention they get from them. It's their choice but even after what they have been though like guys on here, 99 times out of a hundred they will choose EXACTLY the same sort of women again and again whilst passing by those of us that are decent.

 

EDIT - I relaise I am probably p***** men off on this forum by what I am saying but honestly this really is the experienece I am having. Men seem to go for a certain type of women even when they have been badly burned before. For example I went out with a guy that I was fixed up with by his mum and I liked him, really liked him, but instead of seeing where things went with me he decided to continue the off again on again situation with his ex wife. Now this women is the PITS!!!!! She treats him like c*** by his own admission.

Edited September 8, 2012 by willowthewisp

[tojaz]

They've always been that way...men LOVE it!

 

I go out with all kinds of people, not just this type so no it's not because of who I am with. It's simply because I don't behave like them that I don't get dates...this I am really staring to beleive. It's like men are "into" being treated badly, it's as though they think these women are special because they act special/entitled. They seem to enjoy being knocked back...it's the chase I guess.

 

I don't want to be alone for the rest of my life so if this is what I have to become...it will be what I will become because one thing I know for sure...men are not going to change...they will always go for a women who makes them WORK for them, trates them badly and makes them feel grateful for any snippet of attention they get from them. It's their choice but even after what they have been though like guys on here, 99 times out of a hundred they will choose EXACTLY the same sort of women again and again whilst passing by those of us that are decent.

 

 

Sorry Willow, but I don't buy that.

 

Sure there are a lot of women out there who think guys owe them the world just because they have a cute smile and a blouse full of goodies, and sure there are plenty of shallow men looking for a conquest that will be attracted to that..... most likely until the next one came along.

 

I don't believe for a second that this goes for all men though. As a matter of fact I have known some women who became just as you describe and every one of them found themselves on the outside looking in.

 

Maybe I'm not typical, or maybe guys in the UK are different, but regardless of what it was I was looking for, be it an angel or the town tramp, I would have no interest in anyone who had to become anything less or pretend to be something more then who she is just to catch my eye.

 

TOJAZ

[Steadfast]

I hate to state the obvious but if men are the problem, why desire a relationship with one? No disrespect willow. I get what you're saying and to be honest, caring a little less initially might be a solid avenue to pursue.

 

Again, men -even men of substance- need to know that women do not take the emotional investment lightly. For lack of a better way of saying it, you should allow men to 'pitch the sale' then allow you to mull over the offer. Playing a little hard to get isn't always a game...it could be genuine. Be something worth having. Demand respect of individuality and reciprocate.

 

...regardless of what it was I was looking for, be it an angel or the town tramp, I would have no interest in anyone who had to become anything less or pretend to be something more then who she is just to catch my eye.TOJAZ

 

I like this position and I share it. Don't go game on this problem, rise above it. Easy to say? Yes. Easy to do? Not at all. It's a challenge all of us face.

[riverratt]

Hey, Everybody. New here. Saying Hi.

 

But that is what I am saying! No I can't find a relationship with anyone regardless. I'm not saying I don't have standards, I am saying even if I lower my standards to zero I still would not be able to get a relationship. That is how I know that there is soemething wrong with me in men's eyes, you said it yourself....as long as you don't have a tail or horns...so I guess whatever is worng with me is pretty d*** bad.

 

Anyway, it doesn't matter anymore...I've given up.

 

I wouldn't say that. You haven't ran into the right guy..There are still guys out there that aren't into the one night stand..Believe me. I am one. Never have been. Back when I was in my teens I passed up women because they were drunk and I thought it was rude to go to bed with them because they might not have really wanted too if they were sober..There are men who respect women left in this world.

[trippi1432]

Maybe I'm not typical, or maybe guys in the UK are different, but regardless of what it was I was looking for, be it an angel or the town tramp, I would have no interest in anyone who had to become anything less or pretend to be something more then who she is just to catch my eye.

TOJAZ

 

Willow, I'm going to agree 100% with Tojaz's post here. My boyfriend isn't with me because I had to play games, I had simply had enough of being lied to. On our first date I told him, I am who I am, you are who you are....in time, we will figure out if either of us can live with that. He had been lied to enough to understand that. It took us nearly 2 months to get a first kiss because I was scared, the right guy wants to care for you and you should want to care for him, the wrong guy will tell you what aren't doing for him....make you feel you aren't good enough and you find yourself trying to be something you aren't. If the guy you were seeing wanted to pain himself with his ex, you took a good high road. He wasn't worthy of you, eventually he would suffice his needs with you and be done. The wrong guy will simply continue to spout lies.

 

I did give you advice Willow, based on caring, but also based on being thrust into a world of being a suddenly single mom. I could have had any man I wanted, easy pulls even just walking into a shop, a book store, on the beach, the wrong men. In a club I either intimidated them or didn't go home with them..no teasing, was on the up and up. I grew up with a father who said I should marry for money...look for men who had it, I never wanted that, wanted someone equal who would love me for me, I for them and support each other in everything we made life to be. I've rarely known that love back in kind, I've learned the hard way not to give it so easily and been destroyed in the process. If you want to know a Princess, I can show you one who showed her a** while a man's son went through a craniotomy and didn't want her husband near his ex-wife. Digressing for a moment (any woman who thinks that she can take a man from another woman, get his last name and then call herself MOM needs her a** kicked in a dark parking lot) <--- she hasn't been at the hospital for 3 nights now, lesson learned. Some men do mourn their Princesses when she changes the locks on the house, they should count their blessings and run, some men beg and plead, a real man knows his priorities, a real man with integrity doesn't lie about himself or anyone else. Sometimes it takes a long time to find a supportive man in this world with integrity.

[jahar]

I've been a lurker here for a couple of weeks and feel ready to make my first post.

 

I would say my experience is similar to that of Willow in that I find women (rather than men) very reluctant to enter into any commitment.

 

I had a very acrimonious split from my long term partner of 14 years back in February 2010. She was the complete love of my life and we had been together since meeting at uni, but completely out of the blue announced she no longer loved me and walked out on me leaving me totally devastated.

 

For the past 5 or 6 months I've been 'looking for love' again and have no problem in attracting women but their initial interest soon wanes and most women I seem to meet either online or in bars seem to be interested in short term flings which is not me.

 

Like willow I really do not know what I'm doing wrong - perhaps I come across too keen, but I try consciously to 'play it cool'.

Edited September 10, 2012 by jahar

[karnak]

I've been a lurker here for a couple of weeks and feel ready to make my first post.

 

I would say my experience is similar to that of Willow in that I find women (rather than men) very reluctant to enter into any commitment.

 

I had a very acrimonious split from my long term partner of 14 years back in February 2010. She was the complete love of my life and we had been together since meeting at uni, but completely out of the blue announced she no longer loved me and walked out on me leaving me totally devastated.

 

For the past 5 or 6 months I've been 'looking for love' again and have no problem in attracting women but their initial interest soon wanes and most women I seem to meet either online or in bars seem to be interested in short term flings which is not me.

 

Like willow I really do not know what I'm doing wrong - perhaps I come across too keen, but I try consciously to 'play it cool'.

 

There really isn't any problem with you or Willow.

We just live in a "use and discard" society. Just that. As plain, simple and hideous as that.

[riverratt]

There really isn't any problem with you or Willow.

We just live in a "use and discard" society. Just that. As plain, simple and hideous as that.

 

I think you are right on that...

[Steadfast]

There really isn't any problem with you or Willow.

We just live in a "use and discard" society. Just that. As plain, simple and hideous as that.

 

The only recourse is to change it...one person at a time. Start with the person in the mirror. Beyond that, it'll continue to be a personal choice.

 

One thing I know for sure, joining the ranks of the superficial won't help. Not even short term, unless your idea of happiness is instant gratification. That doesn't seem to be anyone posting here.

 

It takes courage to stand apart. To provide an example worth following. This thread proves there is some people of integrity left in this world.

[stupidgirl22]

Glad you're feeling indifference towards your ex. It is amazing how quickly we can forget and move forward.

 

I am the same as you with men and my friends told me the same thing that even though I am good company, averagely pretty, funny, smart etc I do find it difficult to open up to new men and I have always been this way so it's not really a consequence of my ex's behavior. It's just the way I am, until I get to know somebody and TRUST them I cannot relate to them intimately. Dating sites were a good thing for me to build relations online and not in person. However my friend 'introduced' me to a man she thought I would like on Facebook and we began our relationship emailing privately and are now a couple. xxx

[willowthewisp]

I've been a lurker here for a couple of weeks and feel ready to make my first post.

 

I would say my experience is similar to that of Willow in that I find women (rather than men) very reluctant to enter into any commitment.

 

I had a very acrimonious split from my long term partner of 14 years back in February 2010. She was the complete love of my life and we had been together since meeting at uni, but completely out of the blue announced she no longer loved me and walked out on me leaving me totally devastated.

 

For the past 5 or 6 months I've been 'looking for love' again and have no problem in attracting women but their initial interest soon wanes and most women I seem to meet either online or in bars seem to be interested in short term flings which is not me.

 

Like willow I really do not know what I'm doing wrong - perhaps I come across too keen, but I try consciously to 'play it cool'.

 

Want to go out with me Jahar? I'm guessing you are in your early thirties? And in the UK!

 

Went out to a different town near by last night, lots and lots of men my age, tons of them and there were far more men than women, I'd say 3 men to 1 women....none of them were interested in me...not one.

 

Ended up pulling a guy 16 years younger than me...like always...in my defence he came up to me and before I knew it we were kissing on the dancefloor and I did think he was older than he was...I find out after if you see what I mean? Him and his friends aaked myself and my friend to join them at a club...me being sensible old me declined due to his age.

 

Why does this keep happening to me? Why do young guys like me and men my age absolutely hate me? They really really hate me.

 

Trippi - whose son is in hospital?

[2.50 a gallon]

Willow, My Friend

 

I do not understand this! I am beginning to believe there is something the matter with the kingdom's water, it does something detrimental to the males brains. Remember I have seen your picture, and why the men would be ignoring you makes no sense. But then again, look what the first in line to the thrown had and threw away, and look what he threw her away for. And going back further Edward giving up the thrown for that?

 

It has to be the water. Their brains are adled.

[riverratt]

Willow..Don't get down on yourself. Sounds the guys there have the problem. Or the ones you are running into any way.

[willowthewisp]

willow, the trouble with most uk men , is that are insecure, and if you are hot looking, like 2.50 said...then they won`t approarch you. Unless of course they are `pi**ed` out their faces in which case you will just laugh and tell them to go away ( won`t you? ).

 

I think the more you want something you can`t get/have, the more and more you crave.

 

Be patient. There are tons and tons of great single guys out there ( i`m one of them...or will be when i sort myself out( give me a couple of years or so ,and give me a call ok? ))

 

Stop trying to rush your life, go out, have fun, but without the emphasis on finding `mr right`...or even wrong

 

Good luck, have fun

 

Ahhhh sadly I think Gallon is being too kind!

 

A little while ago I wen tout with a friend and on of her friends who I had not met before. This women was one of the most beautiful women you had ever seen, extremely attractive and hot. There was no shortage of guys approaching her, in fact there were, at one point, 7 guys around her in a circle all trying to get her to accept a drink from them! So men do approach beautiful women.

 

Besides, I approach men. I don't wait and hope that a guy will come over to me I am proactive and I am knocked back A LOT! That's why I think there is something about me that men my age do not like. I say men my age because if I approach a younger guy, more often than not I pull, but then again perhaps that is because the younger guy thinks they will get lucky with an older women??? WHich they don't because I am not capable of casual sex (I need emotional connection).

 

What gets me though is that you see couples of all descriptions everyday. Not so good looking people are in a couple with someone of equal attractiveness levels. In fact, I learnt about attractivness during my undergrad studies and we are naturally attracted to people of the same level of attractiveness....so I don't get why I cannot get dates because I will be naturally approaching men of my level of attractiveness and therefore they should not be repulsed by me...does that makes sense?

 

As for waiting, going out and having fun, I have been doing that for about a year and half now, but when you NEVER meet anyone it does start to get you down, as much as you try not to let it get to you, when ALL your friends are getting hit on, forming relationships, getting married, having children and you are approaching your next birthday, your late 30's and are still single, not so much as a couple of months relationship even, it gets you down.

 

I really would like to find someone, just to hold a guys hand for goodness sake, to have some affection...not to mention I would actually like to have sex again!

Edited September 16, 2012 by willowthewisp

[willowthewisp]

Coopster, the women who had 7 guys round her is in a long term relationship, in fact she met him that night, he was the best friend of the guy I pulled! If it hadn't been for me approaching his friend she would not be with him now. A common situation I find myself in actually, I also chatted up a guy for another friend and they have been together a year now.

 

I should mention that the women (7 guys, lol) cheats on her boyfriend all the time. It goes back to what I said earlier in this thread I guess, that men seem to like being treated badly, that's how it seems to me anyway as all my friends that are decent are single and those who are manipulative are not!

 

As for me approaching guys...what am I supposed to do then? When I first started wanting to date I would wait for a guy to approach me, try and let a guy I was near know I liked him by smiling etc. NO ONE EVER CAME OVER! So....I got fed up of that and started reasearching online how to be more proactive and how to strike up convos with men.

 

I have to say, that ALL, of the dates I have gotten have been with men that I have approached.

 

Has anyone ugly ever approached me? Once, a guy who weighed 25 stones easily and I'm sorry but I am a UK size 10 (US size 6) I'm 5ft 8" tall so quite slim, I work hard to maintain my figure after losing a lot of weight some years ago and I want someone who looks after themself and shares similar views and lifestyle to me.

 

Generally men don't approach me, unles they are younger, I get A LOT of younger guys coming over. Thing is, they are shocked to hear my age, most put me around 27 -29 years old and even when I do fill them in they are still keen to date me. The youngest I have been on a dtae with was 10 years my junior.

 

Anyway, all I know is that this whole situation is really getting to me...I am fast approaching my next birthday and I so so so do not want to spend yet another birthday alone

Edited September 17, 2012 by willowthewisp

[riverratt]

Yeh. I had to look what a "stone " was. That means I am 6'2" and weight 15 stones..Cool..

[willowthewisp]

a stone is 16 lbs, so if your 6`2 and 15 stone, you need to shed a few dude

 

A stone is 14 lbs coops.

 

she didn`t say, but i`m guessing the 25 `stone` guy wasn`t 9 foot tall

 

No he definately was not!

[riverratt]

a stone is 16 lbs, so if your 6`2 and 15 stone, you need to shed a few dude

 

Dude, That hurt.. I work out..It's not all fat.

[riverratt]

And I am 42..

[SuperGeek]

Once, a guy who weighed 25 stones easily and I'm sorry but I am a UK size 10 (US size 6) I'm 5ft 8" tall so quite slim, I work hard to maintain my figure after losing a lot of weight some years ago and I want someone who looks after themself and shares similar views and lifestyle to me.

 

Gosh if a man said this EXACT same thing anywhere on this forum he'd be flamed alive by women for being superficial and contributing to female eating disorders. Maybe he'd even be labeled as 'mentally abusive as well'. Just imagine this same thread posted by a male with a line something like 'I'm only dating slender women who are size 8 and below because I work out.....'. That guy would get destroyed on this forum.

 

OP, I am NOT going to label you 'superficial' though, because I understand where you're coming from. More than you know actually. I work out most days of the week, eat healthy, and so I'm also attracted to women who do the same. It's a lifestyle thing mainly but from a physical attraction perspective it matters as well. I couldn't relate to someone just vegging out on the couch all the time piling down the fast food with no regard to their health or well being.

 

Just wanted to point out the double standard when it comes to males having the same kind of preferences as the OP. It pisses me off that men get thrown under the bus all the time for being superficial and it's crap.

 

SuperGeek

Edited September 18, 2012 by SuperGeek