What exactly can we do right? - continuation on Moimeme's thread

[havNfun]

<B>Hard to be the perfect man these days.</B>

 

I was brought up in a traditional role household.

 

Growing up, from what I learned from my parents,

I learned that to be a good husband and father meant working hard -

That is what a good man does.

 

Both of my parents knew what to do in their role: my dad worked his ass off to bring in money and my mom did EVERYTHING else. And they will have been married 40 years next January and have been quite happy with their plane gold bands – no diamonds, as wedding rings.

 

When I was a younger man I had a few relationships where my girlfriends didn't appreciate my young 'poverty' and didn't have faith that I would make good as I developed my career. I learned quickly that in the dating world, a good job meant everything. This realization hit its peak when I made 10000 on a show one day and that wasn’t good enough for my girlfriend – she figured that was as good as it was going to get and that it wasn’t enough for the work it took. This in a big way contributed to the drive I have today so that I never feel like I can't be a good provider.

 

Since these earlier relationships, and several thousand hours of hard work,

I still search for what I can do to make women happy. Nowadays girlfriends complain that I work too much and spend too little time doing routine life/relationship stuff.

 

In most of my relationships, women expect the following:

1. A nice house at some point soon after marriage

2. A diamond engagement ring nice enough to not feel embarrassed or have people think they have a cheep or poor boyfriend.

3. A respectable wedding at some point - and few have parents wanting to pay for it this day and age (or at my age).

4. 1 or 2 good vacations a year so they feel like they are “traveling” and living the good life.

5. Ability to eat out and go out whenever.

6. As their friends get married in different locations throughout the (US) in my case, girlfriends want you to be able to afford the time and money to attend the weddings with them. Often meaning plane ticket, hotel, gift etc.

 

This Is all fine – accept, girlfriends still complain about me working too hard and not spending enough “leisure” time with them etc.

 

I don’t know how else to do it unless someone invents a way to create more hours in a day. It is usually assumed that I pay for most daily activities like grocery shopping, movies, dinning out, etc. If you are a guy you know that this adds up quickly. These days most women you date have pretty good jobs themselves. They are buying starter homes and amassing portfolios and retirement plans while the guy’s extra money goes into the relationship and the courting process. Then a man has to feel like a looser if he can’t afford all of the travel etc. that the girlfriend can because she’s not had to pay for anything.

 

I am not complaining about my role. But, I am suggestion that it is confusing and impossible to be expected to have and be everything. To keep up with the “Jones’s,”

And to have the security women want, it takes a lot of cash these days. The only way I know to get this cash is to work like hell. I have heard many many girlfriends and wives complain about their significant others who “lack ambition” and/or make very little money. As soon as us guys play the game and bring in the money, then we are inattentive and don’t help out around the house, etc..

 

Well enough said,

Any thoughts on this ladies/guys?

[jw32802]

wow, see i am the opposite of all those girls. I believe in traditional households..I think the man should work and the woman should be the nurturer w/ the kids and clean up around the house, cook etc. I just think that is human nature. I never was the kind of girl who needed the guy to be rich or anything either. I was just with a guy who made over 100k a year and i just didnt care~i would have been fine w/ out him making all that money. I would always think of him and things he needed anyway, even though he made all that money, I would still remember that he needed milk and bring it over ( i didnt live there) but id buy things i knew he liked etc and he said "not many girls do that". I would remember little things he said and buy it for him. I didnt have to go to fancy restaurants, i was happy just sitting in and watching tv and eating a pizza or cooking in. Do you find that most girls you come across need everything to be about money or eating out all the time etc?

[CurlyIam]

I find the social aspect quite important: I like to go out, I like pretty restaurants and I appreciate quality time with my friends.

 

But most importantly, I want time with my bf. If he can gainless and see me more, that would be fine - I mean in a long term relationship. The feeling that I can share, that I have someone who is with me, who knows my problems, my worries, that I have a partner in life, not only a provider, is most important.

 

I am most unhappy when I miss someone. Missing the person I would live is not an option to me.

 

 

Back to the main point: making pots of money is great, but not at the expense of the relationship. IMO, after some point, one does choose between the two!

[havNfun]

I find the social aspect quite important: I like to go out, I like pretty restaurants

 

Missing the person I would live is not an option to me

 

Curly,

what you want sounds reasonable. But also makes my point that women want what might be impossible.

 

Do you find that most girls you come across need everything to be about money or eating out all the time etc?

 

the women I date are intelligent (so I hope) and seem to think they are contributing and not gold digging because they work. Even though a lot of women seem to think they have a perspective of not requiring their boyfriends to be wealthy, and not being too high maintenance - the reality is that I always feel much more taxed. Yes most girlfriends earn their own money - and are paying their own mortgage or rent - there is an underlying expectation that I pay for day-to-day stuff. And at the same time I am trying to build a business so I maintain my long attractiveness as far as having a great future to offer.

 

guess what I'm trying to say with this answer is that most women don't deliberately set out to drain your wallet or to be overly demanding. They even usually try to chip in for a meal here and there. but the inherent expectations they have these days - perhaps because of cultural influences, are very difficult to accommodate. I would feel fine working all the time for the money to make everything happen. I just would like it to be respected and enough... and not be made feel guilty for it. Its either money shortage or time shortage - at least for now while I'm fairly young and still establishing my wealth.

 

(well tried to answer your question but I don't feel like I was able to explain my point very well)

[havNfun]

well?

 

nobody likes this post or what?

[dyermaker]

I'm assuming you want honesty.

 

You're not the first person to do this, but I've noticed that when you speak of females and their desires, you fail to see the humanity in them. It's the same deal with the "nice guys finish last" dogmatics--you fail to realize that gals are human and are capable of making their own decisions, and forming their own expectations, desires, and conclusions, independent of their social programming.

 

It's cyncical and condescending.

[havNfun]

um, thanks for the post but not true

[moimeme]

Actually, Dyer, I don't see that at all in his post.

 

I'm all about being a team - about being a partner with someone. I absolutely don't think a woman who's working should expect the man to foot the bill for everything; I don't see that as being fair at all. If it's your joint entertainment, why not share costs or take turns paying?

 

As for expecting material possessions, I'd far rather go with less goodies if it meant I could spend more time with a fellow. Now spending money on travel I can see, but there's ways to travel without breaking the bank. No need for a poshy hotel, for instance, when all you do in it is sleep anyway!

 

At some point in their lives, some people realize that stuff is just stuff; it has no meaning, it can't hug you back, and when you die it won't miss you. Sometimes people don't realize this until their loved one is sick or their junk gets burned up but their family survives. Others figure it out without having tragedy befall them.

 

I know people who have worked in Africa in very poor places and loved it and couldn't wait to return. I know someone whose friend is going back to a much poorer country. People don't have nearly as much stuff there but they have warm and loving relationships.

 

You need to put a roof over your head and to eat and wear clothes. After that, remember that people originally started earning money in order to survive. It's turned into people becoming slaves to money so they can have stuff. Are we really 'richer'?

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by moimeme

Actually, Dyer, I don't see that at all in his post.

What's that got to do with actuality? It's your perceptions and mine, for what it's worth, I'm not just talking about this post.

[Mr Spock]

I fail to see the point of your post, havnfun...could you perhaps dumb it down for me and ask the question a little more clearly? I'm reading and all I'm seeing is you stating facts about your life-what is the topic for debate? Forgive me, I just don't see it.

[havNfun]

okay I'll dumb it down some more - if that's possible.

 

I guess after reading the other thread that Miomeme started about the possible trend of women feeling entitled to what they want - their way or the highway etc.

 

it got me thinking how things have gotten a bit tricky for us men -

 

Got me thinking how the ideal man (to a woman) seems to be

a guy with a great career that is around often for play and

available to contribute to household tasks as well.

And as a side note it is interesting to me that more young women I know than

men seem to be buying homes and amasing funds.

meanwhile we continue to pay for most things.

 

perhaps I didn't have a question. other than, does anyone else

see this "damned if I do - damned if I don't" situation us guys are sorta in?

[havNfun]

dear dyermaker,

 

a) never was the niceguy

b) never finish last

c) don't have a chip on shoulder

d) I respect women as human beings etc. when they deserve it.

[dyermaker]

A-D are irrelevant, perhaps you misunderstood me. My point was that you're acting as though female responses are formulaic and involuntary.

[havNfun]

acting as though female responses are formulaic and involuntary.

 

responses to what? responses to a relationship? to this post? to society?

[CurlyIam]

As usual, dyer, you make proof of an excellent intuition .

[Adunaphel]

It is usually assumed that I pay for most daily activities like grocery shopping, movies, dinning out, etc.

I don't think this is normal. Perhaps you are dating the wrong kind of girls?

I believe that it is very unfair to expect the man to pay for everything.

I like men who pay for dinner out once in a while, but I believe that basically expenses should be shared. Unless one of the two earns a lot more money and loves expensive places... in this case he/she should contribute more, because you can't expect your partner to go bankrupt only because you like eating lobster every other day.

I also find some agreements like "she pays for the groceries, he pays for dinners out"(or viceversa), "she pays for the movies, he pays for the taxi", "she pays for the wedding cerimony and wedding party, he pays for the ring" fair.

[havNfun]

I believe that it is very unfair to expect the man to pay for everything

 

I hear what you are saying. I agree too. And the people I date would probably agree too.

but it doesn't seem to end up that way.

 

actually, I ussually feel good about paying. So fine let me pay and work. But anymore, women don't want to do 100% of the housework, etc. And they want husbands that are home once in a while.

 

can't blame them I guess.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by havNfun

responses to what? responses to a relationship? to this post? to society?

Responses to men.

 

The point is, women are sentient beings, capable of transcending whatever you would expect them to do based on your preconcieved notions. In trying to analyze what makes a female female, you're then dehumanizing them in your mind, and you do yourself a disservice--especially if you're trying to learn something.

[havNfun]

So true,

but making a claim or statement that is general,

sure provokes the specific out of people.

 

I value people as individuals and love to hear them affirm it.

[reasontosigh]

Originally posted by havNfun

So true,

but making a claim or statement that is general,

sure provokes the specific out of people.

 

That in itself is a generalization.

 

If you truly value people as individuals, you sure have a strange way of showing it.

[havNfun]

I know reasontosigh,

 

but hang in there w/me ...

 

there is at times a method to my madness.

 

(hugs)