havNfun Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 I disagree. I think there are an equally significant number of men who have the same "illogical" thinking. Some men think that the woman's role is to cook, clean, have and take care of children, and not question anything the man wants to do, whether that be watching porn and masturbating instead of having sex with them, spending their money on, yes, trucks, motorcycles, sports cars and other toys and status symbols, instead of compromising and giving them what they might want in addition to what the man wants; hanging out at bars with their single buddies instead of being home with the family; or expecting sex on demand. A number of men expect women to work full-time AND do all of the above list of "female duties." I mean, the list of things some men expect can go on and on, just the same as the list of some women can. This sounds like 30 years ago perhaps but I'm not seeing that attitude in younger couples I asked her what she thought her role would be for him, and she surprised me by saying "doing laundry, cooking, keeping house, etc." all the old traditional roles! We did have some discussions about that. She had it figured somehow that HE = MATERIAL and SHE = SERVICE. She changed her views as she was getting older---mainly because her role models were the total opposite. I work and buy things for everyone else and support everyone else. Hubby takes out the trash. When I tell him to. I don't think it has to be a "he=material and she=service" partnership but I don't think there is anything wrong with that either. I intend to do what I am good at. And I will not marry someone if they can't or won't be doing what I am not good at. Couples need to compliment eachother if they wish to get everything done, well, - which means they need to do different things. Those women and men who do not choose mates that fill in their gaps, if they don't choose a spouse based partly on this, they may duplicate tasks, spin their wheels etc. I don't want t wife like me, and I don't want one doing exactly what I do. period.
Adunaphel Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 I have yet to see a man post saying "I really want a big new truck and if my wife really loved me, she'd get it for me because I want it". If he did, he'd be laughed off the board. Quite a few guys have this line of reasoning though: "I really want a big new truck and I'm going to buy it with money that *both* my wife and I earned without even asking her opinion". I believe both attitudes suck, and they are not really much different. Expecially if the woman earns money too, and the ring/piece of jewelry would end up looking like a present from the guy but would actually be paid by both of them. Of course with babies it is a totally different matter. If a girl acted like "I like this thing and I'm going to buy it with *our* money no matter what you think about it" would it be much better? A few guys act that way. What about a "I really want a diamond ring and if you loved me you'd get it for me *since you have just bought yourself a new truck, a new camera, and a new playstation*"? Would this be fair? To me it would. So what's up with this? Are females being taught that men are their servants? Are they being told that men's role is to serve/please them in all their desires these days? Where are females getting this impression from? Is nobody being socialized to want to be fair, or even to give to their men? How, exactly, is it that the woman's every wish, desire, and whim must be honoured but not the man's? I think that a few of these women spend a good amount of time trying to please their SO/not to upset their SO without him even having to *ask*. Some of those few women are even quite good at it. So they think "hey, I spend the time trying to please my SO, he *might* do something important for me now. Of course this is not a good way of thinking..... but at least they have a point, even if it is distorted. They should stop giving relentlessly and start asking, instead of complaining that their men don't do enough for them of their own will. Others are really being taught that their men should treat them like princesses and don't care about *giving* to their SO themselves. While I think the attitude "I'll treat you like a prince, but I expect you to treat me like a princess", wrong as it may be has at least some sense, for this behaviour, IMO there is not excuse.
dyermaker Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 Originally posted by Adunaphel What about a "I really want a diamond ring and if you loved me you'd get it for me *since you have just bought yourself a new truck, a new camera, and a new playstation*"? Would this be fair? To me it would. Er... No. One should never qualify your desires with "If you loved me", that goes double if it's something shallow and material. That's a tactic of manipulation, and as far as I know, it's a feminine thing.
Adunaphel Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 Originally posted by dyermaker That's a tactic of manipulation, True and as far as I know, it's a feminine thing. Truer But what about taking out the 'if you loved me' and putting "if things were to be fair" in its place? Like in "I really want a diamond ring and if things were to be fair you'd get it for me *since you have just bought yourself a new truck, a new camera, and a new playstation*"? I agree that the 'if you loved me' part is manipulative. I heard men use it as well, but as you said it's mainly a feminine thing. I'm glad I don't use it, I guess it must be hard to realize that it is manipulative behaviour once you are used to put it in your sentences/requests.
Mr Spock Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 My pet peeve was men who would say "I make all the money. I'm going to put new boots on my truck-regardless if the kitchen needs flooring"
lydiamarie Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 Originally posted by Adunaphel *since you have just bought yourself a new truck better be a d@mn big ring
Adunaphel Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 Originally posted by Mr Spock My pet peeve was men who would say "I make all the money. I'm going to put new boots on my truck-regardless if the kitchen needs flooring" To me men who say "I make all the money" is a huge pet peeve alone! Besides that *might*make sense only in one circumnstance: if the man made *all* the money, okay, but he also did the housework, cooked (or paid someone to do all of this), there were no kids, and the woman didn't have to lift a finger. In this case he'd be entitled to do anything he likes with his money no matter if the kitchen is falling apart.
dyermaker Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 Originally posted by Adunaphel But what about taking out the 'if you loved me' and putting "if things were to be fair" in its place? Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. I think if you're asking for a diamond ring as a gift, the sentiment of that gift is completely eliminated by trying to balance it out as "fair"--you know? It takes a gift that could mean something and replaces it with more of an obligatory treat to shut you up. I think that if a couple is still bickering about personal purchases like this, they're not ready to share finances, so you're on your own whether you want jewelry or an automobile, you know? I heard men use it as well, but as you said it's mainly a feminine thing. Upon reflection, I think, manipulationswise, men may use this in the context of "If you loved me, you'd boink me", but that's not really a passive-agressive way of circumventing communication, it's more manipulatory pressure.
Adunaphel Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. I think if you're asking for a diamond ring as a gift, the sentiment of that gift is completely eliminated by trying to balance it out as "fair"--you know? Yes, I know, thank you. I guess even a 5 years old would realize the ring wouldn't be a gift in this case. I think that if a couple is still bickering about personal purchases like this, they're not ready to share finances, so you're on your own whether you want jewelry or an automobile, you know? Yes, I *do*know, but again it's a thing important enough that it deserves being pointed out. So it was great that you brought these points to attention.
dyermaker Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 Even though it may *sound* shallow, I understand it must be frustrating to be in a relationship with a man that spends a lot of money on himself but cuts financial corners when it comes to spending money on you--but as I pointed out before, this just proves that you're not at the point in your lives together where you can make financial decisions as a couple.
CurlyIam Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 Since we are talking about men,women and expectation, I can only emphasize this in Adunaphel's post: I think that a few of these women spend a good amount of time trying to please their SO/not to upset their SO without him even having to *ask*. Some of those few women are even quite good at it. So they think "hey, I spend the time trying to please my SO, he *might* do something important for me now. Sure, expecting diamonds as a sign of how strong the love the hubby feels for the wife is an interesting enough subject. However I remember only 2 such threads since I'm on the Shack. On the other hand, on women complaining about doing all the work in the house and men reluctant to move a strow in the house I've read Two this months. And even then, people (on the LS) tend to diagnose men with all sort of disorders. Isn't that funny, how no one posted a big thread on that, but yet, diamond issues (should I say women expecting material things) are of so notoriety... I wonder why .... Funny how the second one dares to demand a material thing is immediately bashed.... Funnier how they're being viewed... it tells a lot about those looking to.... you know, the beauty, the beholder....
BlockHead Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 dyermaker One should never qualify your desires with "If you loved me", that goes double if it's something shallow and material. That's a tactic of manipulation, and as far as I know, it's a feminine thing.That is extortion. CurlyIam Funny how the second one dares to demand a material thing is immediately bashed.... Funnier how they're being viewed... it tells a lot about those looking to.... you know, the beauty, the beholder....I think part of this is because diamond rings are very expensive sparkly rocks. Its only function is to glitter.
Author moimeme Posted July 19, 2004 Author Posted July 19, 2004 The thread was not inspired by the diamond threads but rather by the thoughts expressed in many many posts about men's misdeeds that then go on to the 'should' phrase which often boils down to the sort of extortion that Dyer and others refer to. Don't mistake me for someone who thinks it's fine for people to not pull their weight in relationships; I can point you to posts where I've opined against that. The whole point of the thread is to question how people go about achieving equality in the relationships - or if some women even want it. Curly - go sometime and look up one of the posts where a man has complained that his wife is always too tired for sex because 'all' she has to do is take care of the house and three kids all day! LOL. On those threads, the men accuse me of being pro-female and anti-male
havNfun Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 Its up to the men also to demand fair and sensible negotiations.
EnigmaXOXO Posted July 19, 2004 Posted July 19, 2004 The whole point of the thread is to question how people go about achieving equality in the relationships - or if some women even want it. My partner has a wonderfully articulate friend who has summed up our own feelings regarding achieving "equality" in a relationship. Because is he financially independent, is a better house keeper and cook than most women, and already owns his own home which he manages quite well…He said, "I won't get married unless I meet a woman who can bring something to the table." We thought he'd remain a happy bachelor forever. There was no way he'd never find anyone who would be able to give him anything he didn't already have, or provide help with anything he couldn't already do for himself. But to our delight, he DID meet a wonderful lady two years ago and married her. Although she's never cooked a meal (but is now learning how)…and is a self-proclaimed slob compared to his tidiness (he even had to show her how to turn on the vacuum cleaner)…they are happy, content and in love. You see, what she brought to the table that our friend couldn't provide for himself was companionship, friendship and love. And several months ago she gave him the gift of "family"…his very first child (son). Their relationship is very similar to the one my partner and I have. Even when it comes to the age differences between our partners (about eight years). All four of us; being older and having already achieved our financial independence, were looking for that special something that all the money in the world couldn't buy. Not our "missing half" or someone to complete us or take care of us. Rather, what we found were our "equals"… someone who enhanced and complimented our already FULL lives. For me, it isn't about money, sparkly rings, expensive gifts or how many figures my partner earns. I already have more than I know what to do with. What I found was a best friend and emotionally invested partner…something I never even realized I was missing in my life until I was lucky enough to stumble upon the gift of "him." I suppose we don't miss what we've never had, and in retrospect I don't know how I ever managed to get by so long without it. Nor will I ever be able to go back and accept anything less, again. Mutual love, mutual respect and mutual priorities IS what makes us "equals." It's the only common denominator that really counts. BTW Moimeme…when Johnny asked me what I wanted for my birthday, I told him I wanted a garbage disposal. He looked at me like I was crazy, and refused because he said that it was not a proper "gift." I suppose I'm guilty of emotional extortion, because I spent days trying to convince him that it was the ONLY thing I wanted, and if he "loved" me he'd take pity on me having to stand over the sink every night swearing and jabbing at it with a fork. You should have seen how embarrassed he was when I unwrapped it. But for me, it was the best "I love you" present I ever got!
Author moimeme Posted July 20, 2004 Author Posted July 20, 2004 That's great, Enigma I'm so glad some people find these sorts of relationships I already have more than I know what to do with Well, if you're finding it a burden, send it this way. I can always come up with some ideas...
lydiamarie Posted July 20, 2004 Posted July 20, 2004 me too: rent, groceries, meds, tuition, new piercings...you get the idea
Samson Posted July 23, 2004 Posted July 23, 2004 What I really expect is: other services, like taking the trash out every evening or sitting at home and rising kids, letting ME make the main decisions whilst THEY give up to do what they like to do! Sorry Hokey, but this is patently Ridiculous.
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