Is relationship and sex is 'something' that men 'get' from a woman /she gives

[somedude81]

Fair enough. I have a question though.

 

Are you really so sure that you aren't part of the problem?

 

I mean, and I say this sincerely, what do you have to gain by continuing to subscribe to this way of thinking, and what are you willing to do to change not just your mindset, but your fortunes - without finding fault in the methods?

By continuing this mindset, that relationships/sex/affection are something that women give to men, and that men have to work for; I gain nothing, and I lose nothing.

 

What it actually does is tell me that I need to become better if I want to receive what I desire from a woman. I need to earn the reward.

 

And yes I'm sure somebody is going to have issue with my words, if you do, go post about it in the ranting section, not here, thanks

There is no "victim" here. Somedude is his own worst enemy. Society didn't inflict his state on him and doesn't owe him a woman.

 

Perhaps it did. I see a lonely man, surfing the internet, whose rare attempts at normal social interaction have been shot down, because he didn't play by the rules. I notice that there are more and more somedudes in our society. That means something is up.

Society sure as hell hasn't made it easy on me.

 

I've been shot down far more times than I should have. And because of the continued rejections, I haven't been able to learn what really matters.

 

I'm basically trying to find a job in a field where all positions require 5 years experience.

I think that #1 came first,

The very fact that you can think that shows how warped your perception of me is.

 

I'll fill you in. I started to get the mentality that sex/women is something that men have to work after I started reading about Pick Up material when I was 22. At that time I was wondering why I was doing so poorly with women.

 

I got my first crush on a girl at 13.

 

So from 13 to 22, nine years of failing with girls, I didn't have that mentality.

 

 

but it's only a tiny sliver of the massively wrong way you view humanity, women specifically, sex, relationships, friendships, your role with other human beings, the way you are perceived, etc. It's a package.

 

I'm sure you think I am a big meanie, but I am coming from a place where I had to realize, at one point of my life, that I was WRONG and was headed on a terrible path if I did not look at MYSELF and make the changes I needed to make WITHIN MYSELF in order to get on a different path. It wasn't all about other people, the f**ked up world, my sick family of origin, me being born in the wrong time, the pain of having a sensitive "artistic temperament " (which was a favorite of mine) or any of that. It was ME that needed to come to acknowledge, accept and live with the way things really were / are.

 

I maintained my integrity. In fact, probably enhanced it. I don't want to give the impression that I altered myself to "fit" society. I accepted reality and stopped looking outside of myself to place blame or to find validation.

 

Maybe I was lucky in that truly, if I hadn't have done that, I would have died or become a bag lady.

 

It might be more difficult to be a person like you, who can easily look at yourself and think that you are just fine. Mostly because you aren't fat.

 

You need to look deeper. And, no. Doing that kind of "work" on yourself will not "get" you a girlfriend. It would, however, make you much more than a big empty selfish hole angrily and petulantly looking for somebody who has a vagina and falls within certain weight, age, boob and hair parameters to magically fill you up.

 

I'm sure you will now say that this is nonsense, doesn't have anything to do with your thread, blah blah blah. And then I'll be even more poorly disposed towards you, because I am sharing personal things to try to connect. But that's LoveShack for ya!

Mme. Chaucer, it is very hard to take you seriously when you describe me the way you do.

 

When you say things like

 

"tiny sliver of the massively wrong way you view humanity, women specifically, sex, relationships, friendships, your role with other human beings, the way you are perceived, etc.",

 

"It might be more difficult to be a person like you, who can easily look at yourself and think that you are just fine. Mostly because you aren't fat",

 

"petulantly looking for somebody who has a vagina and falls within certain weight, age, boob and hair parameters"

 

Do you really expect me to pay attention?

 

All I see is passive-aggressive insults.

I would be careful defining him as a victim. In what respect? How does society go about segregating him and his kind this way? They must have some common traits. What are they? Being short? There are short guys everwhere procreating. Being poor? There are poor guys procreating all over the place. What is it, and what must change in society for the victimization to stop? I get the impression somedude wouldn't complain about a "woman for every man policy" that has the government delivering a woman to his door. Obligated to stay and work to satisfy him sexually. Entitlement.

 

But then I do date and have had long-term relationships, too. Why me and not him or you?

He's a victim of his genetics. Not about the being short part, but more about having social difficulties. I think that's is really a genetic thing (nurture plays a part to be sure but it's mostly genetics).

 

It's nobody's fault, as I said so there's no real solution to the problem.

 

 

 

As I said, genetics. You were blessed with better genes than others.

 

I guess we could call it "luck".

As much as people don't want to admit it, genetics plays a huge part.

 

I've said repeatedly, that if I had my Dads height of 5'10, (instead of being 5'6) I would have no problem with women at all. None. I'd probably be married right now.

 

Yes I know that there are tall decent looking, not overweight guys who do horrible with women. The main reason for their troubles is their personality. And IMO, if they're tall and decent looking there must be something really wrong with who they are to make them undatable. Here's the kicker, from what I've experienced in my life, observed and read about; my personality, aggressiveness etc would be good enough to land me a girl(s) if I were taller. There's also the obvious thing that my confidence would be higher because I wouldn't be carrying around "short man's mentality."

 

Long story short, if nothing about me at all changed except for my height, I'd do fine with women.

 

The next point is that there are short guys who do OK to great with women. What they all have in common, is that they have, high confidence, very outgoing personalities and are possibly very funny. In other words, they used some excess of their personality to overcome being short. But you know what, being very outgoing, having a killer since of humor. Those things are also genetic.

 

Like my parents, I am a quiet introverted person. I have to force myself to be more outgoing.

 

TLDR: A quiet short guy gets no love from the ladies.

[Badsingularity]

I have to force myself to be more outgoing.

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

It's not genetics. Even if it was you can still become more outgoing.

 

You can do it. You just have to stop being scared.

[ThaWholigan]

Exactly.

 

 

It's not genetics. Even if it was you can still become more outgoing.

 

You can do it. You just have to stop being scared.

And you can be introverted and still be outgoing.

[somedude81]

Exactly.

 

 

It's not genetics. Even if it was you can still become more outgoing.

 

You can do it. You just have to stop being scared.

Yes it is genetics.

 

But yes things can be somewhat changed with work.

And you can be introverted and still be outgoing.

Introvert

 

noun

 

1.a shy person.

 

2.Psychology. a person characterized by concern primarily with his or her own thoughts and feelings (opposed to extrovert).

 

3.Zoology. a part that is or can be introverted.

 

Extrovert

 

noun

 

1.an outgoing, gregarious person.

 

2.Psychology. a person characterized by extroversion; a person concerned primarily with the physical and social environment (opposed to introvert).

[ThaWholigan]

Yes it is genetics.

 

But yes things can be somewhat changed with work.

 

Introvert

 

noun

 

1.a shy person.

 

2.Psychology. a person characterized by concern primarily with his or her own thoughts and feelings (opposed to extrovert).

 

3.Zoology. a part that is or can be introverted.

 

Extrovert

 

noun

 

1.an outgoing, gregarious person.

 

2.Psychology. a person characterized by extroversion; a person concerned primarily with the physical and social environment (opposed to introvert).

I maintain - you can be outgoing and still be an introvert.

 

Don't be so black and white.

 

And it's too convenient to blame genetics, I hate it when people do that.

[somedude81]

I maintain - you can be outgoing and still be an introvert.

 

Don't be so black and white.

 

And it's too convenient to blame genetics, I hate it when people do that.

Yeah, but it's doesn't come naturally, must be actively focused on and can be difficult.

 

It's basically going against nature.

[Badsingularity]

 

It's basically going against nature.

 

The thing is, once you get better at being more outgoing it starts to feel natural.

 

It's hard for me to even fake being the way I used to be now.

 

It feels unnatural.

[ThaWholigan]

Yeah, but it's doesn't come naturally, must be actively focused on and can be difficult.

 

It's basically going against nature.

It can be difficult, but if you want success, you have to do it, and keep doing it until you get better at it. Then you can revert back to a steady level of introversion, but of course you have to still occasionally be social.

 

I have a large social circle, I go out every now and then, I talk to lots of people and enjoy being around people because I like people - but I am still an introvert at heart and I spend a lot of time on my own. It doesn't come naturally to me either.

 

You have to stop focusing on how hard it is, because that's going to make it harder. And stop magnifying the importance of your failures. Every successful person encounters failure.

[espec10001]

For Christ's sake Some dude, you're 5'6. You know how many SHORT girls there are out there, WAY shorter than 5'6? You gotta go looking dude! There are so many grown, small women out there for you geez stop it with the height thing already!

[Mme. Chaucer]

I'm not passive agressive. If you think I am insulting … I am only reacting to what you put out here with my honest feelings about it.

 

Anyway, since nobody on your thread here agreed with your assertion that relationships and sex are THINGS that men GET from women, are you changing your perspectives about this? Or what?

[Mme. Chaucer]

For Christ's sake Some dude, you're 5'6.

 

I think that one of the most cocky, self assured and self appointed "players" on this site (who shall remain nameless in honor of the rules) has said that he is 5'6".

 

But we've been down this road before. The road where SD says that if he were tall he'd be married by now. It's a dead end road.

[espec10001]

I think that one of the most cocky, self assured and self appointed "players" on this site (who shall remain nameless in honor of the rules) has said that he is 5'6".

 

But we've been down this road before. The road where SD says that if he were tall he'd be married by now. It's a dead end road.

 

Napoleon Syndrome . And heck, I'm 6'0, I rarely meet a girl who is taller than me, but I'm still single because I haven't met the right girl yet. I guess that blows his whole "I'd be married if I were >5'10" theory!

[Els]

I think that one of the most cocky, self assured and self appointed "players" on this site (who shall remain nameless in honor of the rules) has said that he is 5'6".

 

But we've been down this road before. The road where SD says that if he were tall he'd be married by now. It's a dead end road.

 

You forget the one where he says that if he were a woman, or born in Cuba, or more good-looking, he'd be married by now, too.

[somedude81]

For Christ's sake Some dude, you're 5'6. You know how many SHORT girls there are out there, WAY shorter than 5'6? You gotta go looking dude! There are so many grown, small women out there for you geez stop it with the height thing already!

Because short girls have no interest in average height or taller men.

Napoleon Syndrome . And heck, I'm 6'0, I rarely meet a girl who is taller than me, but I'm still single because I haven't met the right girl yet. I guess that blows his whole "I'd be married if I were >5'10" theory!

So you've been rejected by every girl you were interested in?

You forget the one where he says that if he were a woman, or born in Cuba, or more good-looking, he'd be married by now, too.

I forgot about the being born in Cuba thing. Living in the Cuban area of Miami would also be fine.

 

Being more good looking. Eh, not much would change unless I was super good looking. I'm definitely not a bad looking guy so I don't thin that's holding me back.

[StillReigning]

LOLed hard @ personality being genetic

 

 

You think guys who are confident and charismatic were born that way? What in the hell kind of bullsht is that? You were born with a certain eye color, a hair color, height, maybe bone size, but you were NOT born a certain personality type. That's almost entirely a product of your environment and how you respond to it

 

 

Your point that "If I was 5'10, I'd have no problem dating" is so patently ridiculous, I can't believe anybody with the IQ of over a 100 would actually type that and believe it. I know at least a half dozen guys your height who do okay with women and have girlfriends/get married. Most of them are just average folks and not guys with super huge charisma that you're talking about

 

 

You'll do absolutely anything to avoid taking responsibility for anything. You have one of the worst victim mentalities I've ever seen. Fact is that even if you were 6'1, you'd just find something else to bitch and moan about

[oaks]

In my opinion, damn right it is.

 

If men have to work to attract women, and women determine if relationships and sex happen, how can it be seen any other way?

 

I'm going to stick my neck out and agree with you. Partially.

 

I disagree on the "relationships" point - there are plenty of times when the woman wants one but the man won't give it, even in this forum (you must be new here!)

 

On sex, I entirely agree that it can be seen that way, especially from "outside" when you're not getting any. Also, since it's typically the man who tries to initiate (and, one hopes, seek consent) it's very much the woman who controls when sex happens... once she's found an interested partner.

 

That last bit is important, but it may be a bit you're overlooking. Lots of women want sex!

 

But, other than it being your opinion (to which you are entitled etc) why does it matter? Since I assume you're talking about consensual sex, it happens when both people want it to... So why does it matter who is doing any giving? Why make the distinction? Both people want it. Generally both want to enjoy it, and sometimes both want the other person to enjoy it, too.

 

In other news, I'm disappointed that other correspondents seem to be personally attacking you for what is, frankly, a fairly benign view.

[fortyninethousand322]

LOLed hard @ personality being genetic

 

 

You think guys who are confident and charismatic were born that way? What in the hell kind of bullsht is that? You were born with a certain eye color, a hair color, height, maybe bone size, but you were NOT born a certain personality type. That's almost entirely a product of your environment and how you respond to it.

 

It's not that you were born with a certain personality, but rather you are born with genetic predispositions that give you a propensity for certain personality traits. It's very similar to someone born with a small body frame. It's not that someone with a big body frame is born with more muscular depth and higher body mass, but rather they have advantages over those with smaller body frames when it comes to building a bigger muscular body.

 

Some guys cannot and will not ever be able to cultivate attractive personality traits. This is a fact.

[Els]

In other news, I'm disappointed that other correspondents seem to be personally attacking you for what is, frankly, a fairly benign view.

 

Speaking solely for myself, I am not attacking so much as trying to explain that this view is likely to work to his detriment. It is unattractive for many reasons, and is probably an unfruitful way to approach relationships. He's certainly entitled to it, but he deserves to know that women aren't going to appreciate it. And last I checked, he was trying to attract women.

[ThaWholigan]

It's not that you were born with a certain personality, but rather you are born with genetic predispositions that give you a propensity for certain personality traits. It's very similar to someone born with a small body frame. It's not that someone with a big body frame is born with more muscular depth and higher body mass, but rather they have advantages over those with smaller body frames when it comes to building a bigger muscular body.

 

Some guys cannot and will not ever be able to cultivate attractive personality traits. This is a fact.

No it's not a fact

[somedude81]

So I just got out of Salsa class and already there are two girls I really want to sleep with.

 

One girl who happened to sit down next to me and I ended up talking to for the majority of the class and another girl I met in a previous class that I haven't seen in a while.

 

Riding my bike home it occurred to me that while I want to have sex with them after only 30 or so minutes of contact, there is no way either of them think the same way about me.

 

The only way something could happen is if I convinced a girl to want to sleep with me. And yes, I know how awkward that sentence sounds. The original thought in my head was "convince her to let me sleep with her" but that implies that she is doing something she doesn't want to do.

 

The basic premise is that I want sex, but I need a girl to consent to it. Somehow I have to cause a girl to want to give it to me.

 

From my limited experience, relationships work the same way. I meet a girl I want to have a relationship with, and somehow I have to make her want to be in one with me. It is something the woman allows to happen.

[Lonely Ronin]

From my limited experience, relationships work the same way. I meet a girl I want to have a relationship with, and somehow I have to make her want to be in one with me. It is something the woman allows to happen.

 

In a healthy relationship, both parties want to be with each other.

[somedude81]

In a healthy relationship, both parties want to be with each other.

That's obvious.

 

I'm more interested in how such a relationship started.

[ThaWholigan]

That's obvious.

 

I'm more interested in how such a relationship started.

Why don't you think about it as being something you give her rather than the other way around? That could indeed flip the encounter on it's head.

[Lonely Ronin]

That's obvious.

 

I'm more interested in how such a relationship started.

 

They express mutual interest in each other. If a woman is interested, she will usually continue talking with you. She will also usually ask you questions. It's a two way street.

[Mme. Chaucer]

SD, you might "convince" some woman to "consent" to have sex with you. Maybe you could get lucky and find some really adventurous, "sex-positive" and free thinking woman like ThaWholigan did who wants to relieve you of your burden, or whatever. That would be great. Even if it was done as sort of a charitable act by the girl, you've made it clear that you would not have any problem with that.

 

I understand that you don't want to do it with someone who is not attractive to you, but the chance of finding one who falls within all the parameter of your requirements and also has this approach to having sex is probably slim. Really, most women do require to be attracted, a lot, in order to have sex. So you'd have to be more flexible than you are.

 

Aside form this scenario, though, I think you are stuck with what you always have been stuck with - "nexting" the idea of having sex with any girl who is not showing that she is attracted to you. You could find out what the chances are that she is by asking her out for coffee or a drink, and if she says "no," just forget about it and move on.

 

If she says "yes," you would have to curb your goal oriented and immoveable idea of "girl = vagina" and try to have a good time while concurrently letting her know that you are in DATING and not buddy mode. I imagine this would be a huge challenge for you, but there could be no alternative.

 

This either leads to her giving you use of her vagina, or it won't. You need to be able to discern which way things are going and if it's not in the sex-giving department, you need to abort and move on, or else you will get stuck where you've been before. You hate that and girls hate it too (thinking they are friends with a guy who is actually just thinking of them as a frustratingly unobtainable vagina ).

 

You would have to be daring and navigate all of this pretty much on your own, because no matter how you try, nobody can give you a "program" to follow that will lead to your goal of having sex with a particular girl. It's trial and error.