Author Disenchantedly Yours Posted August 21, 2012 Author Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) personally, I think a big part of the issue is that society wants to dumb down the concept of attractiveness. A lot of people automatically assume healthy/fit/athletic has a direct correlation to how attractive the opposite sex finds you. Anyone that's been around the block a few times can tell you that while parallels exist, it's not 1 to 1. Additionally, I think the general public has no grasp on what healthy really means. Totally agree with you! Edited August 21, 2012 by Disenchantedly Yours
Weezy1973 Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 That survey seems to have a lot of gray areas; their categories seem strange to me: underweight, normal, slightly overweight, obese or severely obese. What does "normal" mean? Is "normal" in Denmark different than "normal" in the US? Or the Philippines? If they had used the word "healthy" instead of "normal" would the results have changed? And why not just say overweight instead of "slightly" overweight. And what scientific study would use the word "slightly" anyways. That just seems weird. But the real problem is that that they didn't ask the husbands/boyfriends the only question that really matters: Do you find your partner attractive? Interestingly enough there are quite a few studies the show people have "positive illusions" when it comes to their partner's attractiveness level. I think there was one study (although I can't find a reference) that showed that 80 percent of people feel their partner is above average in terms of looks. Here's a few more studies that show the same phenomenon (although I couldn't find the links; might have to hit the local university to read them): (1) Murray, S., Holmes, J., & Griffin, D. (1996). The benefits of positive illusions: Idealization and the construction of satisfaction in close relationships. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 70(1), 79-98 (2) Swami, V., Furnham, A., Georgiades, C., & Pang, L. (2007). Evaluating self and partner physical attractiveness. Body Image, 4, 97-101. (3) Penton-Voak, I.S., Rowe, A.C., & Williams, J. (2007). Through rose tinted glasses: Relationship satisfaction and representations of partners facial attractiveness. Journal of Evolutionary Psychology, 5, 169-181.
phineas Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 It may be different for some, but not for others. I don't think everyone prioritizes health and/or fitness as much as others, and I think a few people are slightly ignorant about what health actually is. Plenty of women that are widely considered sexy are actually extremely unhealthy. Their diets lack nutrition, they smoke and drink excessively, pop pills to achieve their weight, etc. Equally so, plenty of men who look sexy and muscular are actually taking hormones and steroids to achieve that - extremely unhealthy. Yes, as I mentioned in the paragraph immediately after the one you quoted. Percentage body fat is definitely a better measure than BMI, but BMI is still leaps and bounds above 'how you look like', which seems to be a favourite measure around here. Saying "BMI is often inaccurate, so I'll just judge my own weight/others' weight based on how I/they look like or fit into clothes" is like saying, 'Chemotherapy doesn't always work for cancer, so I'll just get my village witch doctor to come around with his juju and chant at me'. You would be surprised how many people use the 'BMI is bunk' statement to justify being overweight. LOL! Guys do not take steroids to look like Brad Pitt from fight club. They take them to look like a professional wrestler. Also, there is no magic pill a woman can pop so she can eat like crap & still stay in shape. Amphetamines kill your appetite so you don't want to eat so claiming they eat unhealthy & pop pills to stay thin makes zero sense. It's all calories in & calories out. You eat more cals than your body requires & you gain weight. Eat less & you lose it. If someone hasn't developed scurvy or rickets and still thin then obviously their not unhealthy. There are people who lack knowledge of nutrition & i'm betting it isn't the lean people you speak of.
Got it Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 In my experience, men and women underestimate my weight. I am heavier than I guess I look. In discussing this recently with my guy, he has been losing weight, seeing a nutritionist, but still in the overweight area of the BMI (he has another 15 pounds to lose), he seems to think I am 10-20 pounds lighter than I am. Same goes with some women that I have spoken to in regards to clothing, etc. It's odd as I have had an eating disorder when I was younger so I know my perception of myself is off kilter and will lean to the heavier side but I argue with others on what my weight actually is. I am healthy right now. A healthy weight though I would prefer 5-10 pounds lighter which would be too thin and my guy would prefer another 10 pounds more (because he likes where it goes. )
Els Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) LOL! Guys do not take steroids to look like Brad Pitt from fight club. They take them to look like a professional wrestler. And.. how does that contradict what I'm saying? Do you think that no women find men who look like pro wrestlers 'muscular and sexy'? Also, there is no magic pill a woman can pop so she can eat like crap & still stay in shape. Never said there was. Well, there ARE pills that help you eat like crap and be thin. But they definitely aren't 'magic', not by a long shot, not with side effects like theirs. Amphetamines kill your appetite so you don't want to eat so claiming they eat unhealthy & pop pills to stay thin makes zero sense. ...Wait, so are you actually saying that you think taking amphetamines is okay? Amphetamines are also by no means the only pills you can take. Trust me on this. It's all calories in & calories out. You eat more cals than your body requires & you gain weight. Eat less & you lose it. Exactly. And two cups of coffee and one bag of M&Ms a day is less calories than yogurt and muesli for breakfast, chicken salad for lunch and veg casserole for dinner. If someone hasn't developed scurvy or rickets and still thin then obviously their not unhealthy. Well, aren't you the medical expert on this? Uh, no. There are plenty of ways to lead unhealthy lifestyles that don't immediately manifest as scurvy or rickets - the fact that you think those are the only two possible diseases that an unhealthy lifestyle can lead to, pretty much says everything I need to know about your knowledge (or lack thereof). There are people who lack knowledge of nutrition & i'm betting it isn't the lean people you speak of. That depends. Are you lean? If you are, I'll put $50 into that wager. You are actually a perfect example of the sort of ignorance I speak of. I'm sure there are also plenty of very thin people who are also very healthy - xxoo is an example of that. But thinner does not automatically mean more healthy. The healthy weight is a range, and it certainly extends further than Megan Fox's proportions. It is entirely possible to look good and be unhealthy, period. If celebrities drowning in overdoses of their own dope has not taught you that, I don't know what will. Edited August 21, 2012 by Elswyth
Els Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 Also, FTR, the M&Ms and 2 coffees example is actually from a girl that I know IRL. She wants to be thin, but hates exercise because it gets her all sweaty, and hates eating healthy food and can't be bothered to fix her own meals. So she just skips meals entirely and eats a bit of junk food or instant food when the hunger gets too much. Calorie-wise, it certainly works, and she doesn't do it often enough to get immediate or obvious nutritional deficiencies, just about 2-3 days a week. Long-term health wise, though, I wouldn't place my bets on her. I'm not going to post her picture here, obviously, since that would be the height of rudeness, but frame-wise she was probably the equivalent of any of the girls here: http://seoulbeats.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/20110905_seoulbeats_snsd.jpg . And if you're going to bash them, hold your breath, because those girls are widely considered attractive by millions of men in Asia.
Emilia Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 I'm not going to post her picture here, obviously, since that would be the height of rudeness, but frame-wise she was probably the equivalent of any of the girls here: http://seoulbeats.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/20110905_seoulbeats_snsd.jpg . And if you're going to bash them, hold your breath, because those girls are widely considered attractive by millions of men in Asia. They are pretty too. Girls in their early 20s often look like this, hence a lot of men's preferences for them.
Lonely Ronin Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 I'm not going to post her picture here, obviously, since that would be the height of rudeness, but frame-wise she was probably the equivalent of any of the girls here: http://seoulbeats.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/20110905_seoulbeats_snsd.jpg . And if you're going to bash them, hold your breath, because those girls are widely considered attractive by millions of men in Asia. I'm not sure why it is, but I have noticed Asian men seem to have a thing for women that appear very tall and skinny. Yes, they are all very facially pretty. However an American of English & German descent I think they are too skinny. I actually dated a women with this build when I was younger, and she was helpless, when it came to most physical activities. It was literally all she could do to carry her laundry basket up three flights of stairs. If we went to the mall and walked for more than an hour or so we had to stop so she could rest. At her current size, I think Olivia Munn is much more attractive, but she is only part Chinese, so maybe I'm partially biased by the fact that she has a more European facial structure. http://www2.pictures.stylebistro.com/gi/Olivia+Munn+Dresses+Skirts+Print+Dress+-dHTqAecGcWl.jpg http://images.zap2it.com/images/tv-EP01551950/the-newsroom-olivia-munn-1.jpg http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/fp/Olivia+Munn+Late+Show+David+Letterman+JQ4-Rq0UNmKl.jpg
xxoo Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 Percentage body fat is definitely a better measure than BMI, but BMI is still leaps and bounds above 'how you look like', which seems to be a favourite measure around here. What about "how you function"? Why isn't that the gold standard? Men and women--can you run a mile in less than 12 minutes? Can you run 4 miles in less than 60? Can you lift 50#? Can you do a pull up/push up? (or a certain # of them) Can you touch your toes? These answers are much more meaningful to me than BMI.
joystickd Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 Why waste the energy on how someone else perceives you and focus on being comfortable in your own skin? Just accept that not everyone is going to like you and focus on the ones that do.
phineas Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 And.. how does that contradict what I'm saying? Do you think that no women find men who look like pro wrestlers 'muscular and sexy'? Never said there was. Well, there ARE pills that help you eat like crap and be thin. But they definitely aren't 'magic', not by a long shot, not with side effects like theirs. ...Wait, so are you actually saying that you think taking amphetamines is okay? Amphetamines are also by no means the only pills you can take. Trust me on this. Exactly. And two cups of coffee and one bag of M&Ms a day is less calories than yogurt and muesli for breakfast, chicken salad for lunch and veg casserole for dinner. Well, aren't you the medical expert on this? Uh, no. There are plenty of ways to lead unhealthy lifestyles that don't immediately manifest as scurvy or rickets - the fact that you think those are the only two possible diseases that an unhealthy lifestyle can lead to, pretty much says everything I need to know about your knowledge (or lack thereof). That depends. Are you lean? If you are, I'll put $50 into that wager. You are actually a perfect example of the sort of ignorance I speak of. I'm sure there are also plenty of very thin people who are also very healthy - xxoo is an example of that. But thinner does not automatically mean more healthy. The healthy weight is a range, and it certainly extends further than Megan Fox's proportions. It is entirely possible to look good and be unhealthy, period. If celebrities drowning in overdoses of their own dope has not taught you that, I don't know what will. OK, I see where this is going. I'm going to ignore all your strawman arguments simply because you will argue the sky is green if you got it into your head it's green. But, I'm lean enough. I used to weigh 100lbs more. As I posted earlier I said you could see my seratus muscles. my top two abs, veins on my lower abdomen, no luv handles & just a little pouch around the belly button. I can run circles around most guys younger than me. And according to the BMI charts I was still considered overweight. I'll send you my paypal info so you can get me that $50 And LOL at trying to use drugs to defend your argument. You sound like every other person who has seen me lose that weight over the yrs & still refuses to follow my advice because they think they know better despite not reaching their goals. Sense, it makes none. I lost 100lbs & all I took was a multi-vitamin, some fish oil, drank green tea & some protein powder as far as non-food consumption. Very soon i'm going off my bulk & i'll get back down to super lean & I can stay there & still enjoy food & have a good time. Stay fat & bitter. The people that want my help get it & their glad I was there to give it.
threebyfate Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 The worst male critics of female bodies are usually the guys with low self-esteem. They view their partners as trophies since they're compensating with what's broken inside or what they feel is broken on their own outsides.
Els Posted August 22, 2012 Posted August 22, 2012 I'm not sure why it is, but I have noticed Asian men seem to have a thing for women that appear very tall and skinny. Yes, they are all very facially pretty. However an American of English & German descent I think they are too skinny. I actually dated a women with this build when I was younger, and she was helpless, when it came to most physical activities. It was literally all she could do to carry her laundry basket up three flights of stairs. If we went to the mall and walked for more than an hour or so we had to stop so she could rest. At her current size, I think Olivia Munn is much more attractive, but she is only part Chinese, so maybe I'm partially biased by the fact that she has a more European facial structure. http://www2.pictures.stylebistro.com/gi/Olivia+Munn+Dresses+Skirts+Print+Dress+-dHTqAecGcWl.jpg http://images.zap2it.com/images/tv-EP01551950/the-newsroom-olivia-munn-1.jpg http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/fp/Olivia+Munn+Late+Show+David+Letterman+JQ4-Rq0UNmKl.jpg Oh, yes, I definitely don't get the Asian obsession over thinness either. To be fair, East Asian women tend to be smaller-busted, so when we do put on a little weight it doesn't distribute like Scarlett Johanssen or Beyonce does. But it saddens me to see some girls compromising their health just to attain those standards. There are plenty of products circulating in the direct sales market touting weight loss - some just take your money and don't work, but I personally know a few girls who fainted or fell ill from taking them. Some swear by them and say that they do work - but at what cost? Your ex is a perfect example of my point: The four aspects of health, fitness, thinness, and attractiveness are not necessarily correlated. There is some overlap, but there is no direct correlation. That is why it bemuses me when people try to use health to justify wanting a thin partner. Want a thin partner all you want, I say, but 'slim girls are healthy' is just as big a misnomer as 'tall men protect you better'. OK, I see where this is going. I'm going to ignore all your strawman arguments simply because you will argue the sky is green if you got it into your head it's green. But, I'm lean enough. I used to weigh 100lbs more. As I posted earlier I said you could see my seratus muscles. my top two abs, veins on my lower abdomen, no luv handles & just a little pouch around the belly button. I can run circles around most guys younger than me. And according to the BMI charts I was still considered overweight. I'll send you my paypal info so you can get me that $50 And LOL at trying to use drugs to defend your argument. You sound like every other person who has seen me lose that weight over the yrs & still refuses to follow my advice because they think they know better despite not reaching their goals. Sense, it makes none. I lost 100lbs & all I took was a multi-vitamin, some fish oil, drank green tea & some protein powder as far as non-food consumption. Very soon i'm going off my bulk & i'll get back down to super lean & I can stay there & still enjoy food & have a good time. Are you daft or simply lacking in reading comprehension? How did you somehow extrapolate 'thinness and health are not necessarily correlated' to mean 'everyone who is thin is thin due to unhealthy means'? Stay fat & bitter. The people that want my help get it & their glad I was there to give it. Speaking of strawman arguments. Here's news for you: Espousing an argument well-grounded in scientific facts doesn't actually make someone fat. Try it sometimes. Nobody here was requesting your 'help', and I certainly don't need it. I weigh 120 lbs, so if I were to lose 100, I'd be dead. It amuses me how you can be so butt-hurt and personally affronted about a statement of fact: Not all thin people are healthy. If YOU are thin AND healthy, great for you, I'm not talking about you - if you think I am, well, we're back to my first question: Are you daft or simply lacking in reading comprehension? 2
Els Posted August 22, 2012 Posted August 22, 2012 What about "how you function"? Why isn't that the gold standard? Men and women--can you run a mile in less than 12 minutes? Can you run 4 miles in less than 60? Can you lift 50#? Can you do a pull up/push up? (or a certain # of them) Can you touch your toes? These answers are much more meaningful to me than BMI. I think these answers are definitely better in terms of fitness. But to be fair, I know some very overweight women who CAN run for miles, but have quite a bit of body fat. Are they fitter than the waif who can't? Likely. But are they more healthy than a woman of normal weight who can't? I don't think so - they will still suffer all the adverse health effects of excess body fat, even if they have trained their endurance to be able to run miles. The BMI is a decent measure of health, when taken with a large grain of salt and adjusted to individuals, preferably taken with body fat %. It certainly cannot predict fitness. 1
Evolutionary Posted August 22, 2012 Posted August 22, 2012 men see women the same way women see men. "can i see myself having sex with this person?" if yes proceed, if no reject and move on. we are the same species after all. Men and women are the same species except one is far more evolved than the other. The difference being that for men, the above is the only factor by which they make their selection. For a woman the above is only one of many factors for the reason they have made their selection. To demonstrate such an example. You often hear men complain that they don't want to get into a relationship because then they have to do a whole bunch of things they don't want to do. They have to watch chick flicks, and they have to go to the opera or the theater or what ever. The reason for this being that they are dating a woman with whom they share no common interests. Now how you may ask did this happen? Why then is he dating her if he has nothing in common with her? Because you could date women who like to shoot pool, play poker, go surfing, go skateboarding, loves to work all the time and so understands your busy schedule, etc, so why isn't he dating her? For a very simple reason. When he met/saw her he determined if she was beddable and upon determining yes, he ended the evaluaiton process. We also look at you to determine if you are beddable, yes, and then we go down the rest of the checklist. Men however constantly express irritation with this process better known as “Getting to know you”, they refer to it as “the obligatory small talk”, because as previously stated they're only concern is weather or not you are beddable, You don't need to get to know someone for that! I have heard them refer to the process of our getting to know him as, “the game women play”, but in fact to us it is not a game at all, it is in fact to us very serious. She is checking to see if he is compatible for a longer term commitment. If not, we might still bed him, but then we never call him again because we know he's a dead end, but if he passes several of the items on the checklist, not just the bedability rating, we keep the possibility of more in the future open, hence, we come back, we call back, we talk to you to continue the evaluation. If men spent more time getting to know her, then when he ends up in a relationship with a woman he had sex with he might actually get to enjoy himself. For example, I am on a scale of 1-10 a 7 on a good day and a 5 on a bad one at pool. I love to read, I love movies like Crank, The Expendables, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Fighting, as well as movies like How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days, The Notebook, The Lucky One...etc. As well as any and all Marvel movies with the exception of The Avengers....not impressed with that one. I really like the Origin stories. I served in the United States Marine Corps, I am an excellent amateur profiler. I love an 18 year old bottle of Bowmoore. I love to go camping and fishing. All of these things men rarely get to see because I turn them down when they attempt to sleep with me right off because they were unwilling to let me get to know them. Once they determined I was beddable but not immediately attainable “because she likes to play games” they would abandon pursuit. When in fact all I wanted was to get to know them better. And there is also one more reason we must and I repeat must look at more than weather or not you are beddable. Who is born the bigger and stronger of the two, by nature, on the average, men or women? Are you guys ever scared on a date? I don't mean scared because you want to impress her, I mean scared of her as a physical entity, of course not. Who's car are you guys in? yours. Who's driving? You are, who's the stronger here? You are. Of course your not scared. But do you see why we might be? Do you see why we have to be careful? When a woman goes out on a date she is literally taking her life and putting it in your hands. Hence we need more from you then "It's ok you can trust me" said the rapist. In just about every situation on a date a woman is at a disadvantage, she is opening herself up not only to the possibility of a broken heart, but to the possibility of attack. Think I'm being ridiculous? Then consider this. 25% of women will experience domestic violence in their lifetime. Women accounted for 85% of the victims of intimate partner violence, men for approximately 15%. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003) Domestic Violence Resource Center | Domestic violence statistics. Besides what that says about what women are risking by going out on a date with a man, think about what it says to us about men at large. Now do you see why we can't just stop at “Is he beddable?”
joystickd Posted August 22, 2012 Posted August 22, 2012 Men and women are the same species except one is far more evolved than the other. The difference being that for men, the above is the only factor by which they make their selection. For a woman the above is only one of many factors for the reason they have made their selection. To demonstrate such an example. You often hear men complain that they don't want to get into a relationship because then they have to do a whole bunch of things they don't want to do. They have to watch chick flicks, and they have to go to the opera or the theater or what ever. The reason for this being that they are dating a woman with whom they share no common interests. Now how you may ask did this happen? Why then is he dating her if he has nothing in common with her? Because you could date women who like to shoot pool, play poker, go surfing, go skateboarding, loves to work all the time and so understands your busy schedule, etc, so why isn't he dating her? For a very simple reason. When he met/saw her he determined if she was beddable and upon determining yes, he ended the evaluaiton process. We also look at you to determine if you are beddable, yes, and then we go down the rest of the checklist. Men however constantly express irritation with this process better known as “Getting to know you”, they refer to it as “the obligatory small talk”, because as previously stated they're only concern is weather or not you are beddable, You don't need to get to know someone for that! I have heard them refer to the process of our getting to know him as, “the game women play”, but in fact to us it is not a game at all, it is in fact to us very serious. She is checking to see if he is compatible for a longer term commitment. If not, we might still bed him, but then we never call him again because we know he's a dead end, but if he passes several of the items on the checklist, not just the bedability rating, we keep the possibility of more in the future open, hence, we come back, we call back, we talk to you to continue the evaluation. If men spent more time getting to know her, then when he ends up in a relationship with a woman he had sex with he might actually get to enjoy himself. For example, I am on a scale of 1-10 a 7 on a good day and a 5 on a bad one at pool. I love to read, I love movies like Crank, The Expendables, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, Fighting, as well as movies like How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days, The Notebook, The Lucky One...etc. As well as any and all Marvel movies with the exception of The Avengers....not impressed with that one. I really like the Origin stories. I served in the United States Marine Corps, I am an excellent amateur profiler. I love an 18 year old bottle of Bowmoore. I love to go camping and fishing. All of these things men rarely get to see because I turn them down when they attempt to sleep with me right off because they were unwilling to let me get to know them. Once they determined I was beddable but not immediately attainable “because she likes to play games” they would abandon pursuit. When in fact all I wanted was to get to know them better. And there is also one more reason we must and I repeat must look at more than weather or not you are beddable. Who is born the bigger and stronger of the two, by nature, on the average, men or women? Are you guys ever scared on a date? I don't mean scared because you want to impress her, I mean scared of her as a physical entity, of course not. Who's car are you guys in? yours. Who's driving? You are, who's the stronger here? You are. Of course your not scared. But do you see why we might be? Do you see why we have to be careful? When a woman goes out on a date she is literally taking her life and putting it in your hands. Hence we need more from you then "It's ok you can trust me" said the rapist. In just about every situation on a date a woman is at a disadvantage, she is opening herself up not only to the possibility of a broken heart, but to the possibility of attack. Think I'm being ridiculous? Then consider this. 25% of women will experience domestic violence in their lifetime. Women accounted for 85% of the victims of intimate partner violence, men for approximately 15%. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003) Domestic Violence Resource Center | Domestic violence statistics. Besides what that says about what women are risking by going out on a date with a man, think about what it says to us about men at large. Now do you see why we can't just stop at “Is he beddable?” This argument. I can say this: http://www.tennessean.com/article/20090704/SPORTS01/90704013/Steve-McNair-Sahel-Kazemi-killed Domestic violence is more about having issues of handling conflict and emotions. We all man or woman take a chance when we are dating. I knew of two guys that we set up by women. One got beat up after a botched robbery attempt and another was killed. These guys more than likely thought with their other head and got into trouble. Its useless to get into the who got it worse argument. When you are out here anything can happen. If you don't want to ride in his car meet him where you are having the date. It's that simple. Quit complaining about a man wanting you because he wants to have sex with you. Accept that and use it to your advantage damn. Who wants to be with someone they don't have a desire to have sex with?
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