Interesting dynamics in the NC context

[Mint Sauce]

Dear all,

 

1st post, so I considered making a summary of the situation, but maybe that's too boring, so let me get to the point, and clarify later if needed.

 

My gf of 6 years suddenly left me for a friend of ours (1.5 month ago). Nobody (literally) saw it coming, me included. Her choice for this guy is rather bizarre, more about that if relevant (He's much younger than me/her, she's trying to turn him into a copy of me,...).

 

Anyways: we're on very low/no official contact now for almost a month, but I'm still writing her emails on a "secret" email account, and she reads them more or less daily. I write roughly one a day. In these emails, I highlight what was good between us, I surprise her with a poem, etc.

 

The fact that she reads them suggests she did not forget about me all together, which is in contrast with the firmness by which she left me (think as hard and without compassion as possible, and triple that, I won't go into details, but it was harsh to the extent that everybody around us (including her parents!) is furious at her and our friend who backstabbed me).

 

I want her back, in spite of what happened, but I would insist we go into counseling, for us, but mostly for her to deal with her childhood issues, imo attachment problems due to the ugly divorce of her parents while she was in puberty (my issues have been resolved through 3 years of counseling some time ago after my peaceful divorce from my childhood sweetheart).

 

I understand NC is not so much a way to get her back, as it is a way for the dumpee to survive. But I'll survive, I'm a strong guy . Do you think our peculiar construction (her reading my secret emails but not responding) is worthwhile, in the sense that it may spark doubt in her head? That it may slowly penetrate her self-preservation shield? She has a tendency to not look back, to burn bridges. She killed many relationships like this at a point where they became to serious.

 

I know, I should ask myself whether I want to be with a girl like this, but let's assume I do. I'm fairly convinced that NC would only play in her cards, make it easy for her to move on.

What do you think about my gentle reminders of what she's giving up?

On the other hand, she really may need space now, and hence no pushiness from my side, but she's not taking space: she moved in with the new guy 2 days after she left me, which was only 2 weeks after starting the affair with him.

 

Thanks for your opinion!

[Balzac]

My read on your story is that three years of counseling hasn't cured your fixer tendency. One might ask if you've worked on co-dependency issues?

 

Clearly as an adult you make your own choices.

 

I'm not seeing any upside to taking on the challenge of a relationship with a woman you state needs therapy. NC is to give space to yourself, to work on life absent drama. In real life I'd say, move on. Plenty of beautiful, emotionally healthy girls walking around, looking for relationships.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Balzac

[Balzac]

Ooops! Welcome to LS. Friendly, experienced and helpful folks here. Six years is a big investment of time & emotion. Surely you are feeling some pain and confusion. Know that you are not alone in this crowd! Post often and cough up the ugly here.

[Mint Sauce]

hehe, don't worry, I don't mind being confronted with blind spots in my vision!

 

I have to think a bit about what you said.

 

First reaction, probably meaningful, would be that in the shop I like to shop at, the girls are very very rare (top level science). The emotionally healthy ones even more so. The beautiful ones are absent, except the one I had.

 

Of course, I could do like some of my doctor friends and pick a nurse (no offense intended, they are happy), but I really want the gorgeous neuro-surgeon who plays Schubert on Sunday morning after great sex. The one for which I don't have to dumb down what I want to say (ok, this sounds very bad, but that's the benefit of a forum right, I can be direct) There's not that many of them. Hence I'd rather hang on to the one that fell for me so massively 6 years ago, even if she has some issues.

If I have to find another one of this kind, without issues, that will take at least 5+ years (it took me about 10 years to find this one). So I think I can loose 6 months trying to get this one back

 

ok, shoot, what am I rationalizing

 

ps: still thinking about the co-dependency

pps: or better yet, Balzac, I see you are also active in science. Just point me at that reservoir of bright, beautiful, healthy girls you seem to know about

Edited August 18, 2012 by Mint Sauce

[Balzac]

HaHa! I share many circumstances but swim w a few more beauties. My recommend is to make an effort to hunt in cross disciplines perhaps. Plenty of cultured, top 1% IQs, beautiful and cultured in near science.

You can do better than an RN.

 

Granted 6 mos is negligible time but the misery factor can amplify those 180 days.

[Balzac]

Query-major urban area in USA? As for dumbing down, it never has worked out for me. Even when sex is factored in, more intellect, greater education=more varied and satisfying experiences. Just 'sayin.

[Mint Sauce]

Query-major urban area in USA?

not even close: I'm in the Benelux. English is my 3rd language after Dutch and French

As for dumbing down, it never has worked out for me. Even when sex is factored in, more intellect, greater education=more varied and satisfying experiences. Just 'sayin.

I've come to that conclusion as well. My childhood sweetheart, a truly great girl which I loved very much, was unfortunately not at the same level. The current girl is an award-winning researcher. I quite liked the Big Bang nucleosynthesis discussions over breakfast

 

Cross-discipline hunting it is then

[Mint Sauce]

btw, back to the NC thing: next month she'll take up a job at the research institution where I work. She'll be 2 offices down the hall. She applied there a few months ago while everything was still good. She doesn't want to give the job up, understandably, there's only a few in our field. I could still ask the director to stop the hiring process (I discussed this possibility with him), but have chosen not to. I prefer being the one that took the high road, the one who doesn't owe anything.

 

I sure as ... won't quit either.

 

That will prove interesting/painful.

[todreaminblue]

Dear all,

 

1st post, so I considered making a summary of the situation, but maybe that's too boring, so let me get to the point, and clarify later if needed.

 

My gf of 6 years suddenly left me for a friend of ours (1.5 month ago). Nobody (literally) saw it coming, me included. Her choice for this guy is rather bizarre, more about that if relevant (He's much younger than me/her, she's trying to turn him into a copy of me,...).

 

Anyways: we're on very low/no official contact now for almost a month, but I'm still writing her emails on a "secret" email account, and she reads them more or less daily. I write roughly one a day. In these emails, I highlight what was good between us, I surprise her with a poem, etc.

 

The fact that she reads them suggests she did not forget about me all together, which is in contrast with the firmness by which she left me (think as hard and without compassion as possible, and triple that, I won't go into details, but it was harsh to the extent that everybody around us (including her parents!) is furious at her and our friend who backstabbed me).

 

I want her back, in spite of what happened, but I would insist we go into counseling, for us, but mostly for her to deal with her childhood issues, imo attachment problems due to the ugly divorce of her parents while she was in puberty (my issues have been resolved through 3 years of counseling some time ago after my peaceful divorce from my childhood sweetheart).

 

I understand NC is not so much a way to get her back, as it is a way for the dumpee to survive. But I'll survive, I'm a strong guy . Do you think our peculiar construction (her reading my secret emails but not responding) is worthwhile, in the sense that it may spark doubt in her head? That it may slowly penetrate her self-preservation shield? She has a tendency to not look back, to burn bridges. She killed many relationships like this at a point where they became to serious.

 

I know, I should ask myself whether I want to be with a girl like this, but let's assume I do. I'm fairly convinced that NC would only play in her cards, make it easy for her to move on.

What do you think about my gentle reminders of what she's giving up?

On the other hand, she really may need space now, and hence no pushiness from my side, but she's not taking space: she moved in with the new guy 2 days after she left me, which was only 2 weeks after starting the affair with him.

 

Thanks for your opinion!

 

 

 

let her go.....in my opinion i have read what you have said about poems and no reply....as a poet also, i tell you that i feel you should let her go....i don't understand how the age of her intended boyfriend or new boyfriend has anything to do with wanting a carbon copy of you maybe she is in love?.....love isn't on a time scale when it happens it happens its not a controlled situation as I have recently found out.I have written many poems to make people to feel good too .......they are always to people i care about ......

 

 

but as far as intimate poetry goes let that go too......be happy that your ex has moved on and has a chance at happiness.....it took me a while to forgive my ex but i wish him happiness as i hope he will wish it for me. I said that i would pray for him to have success in a new job he went for last week and he actually sounded grateful i think i might just let him know i have moved on by the power of offering him my prayers....he will know then i am on my way without an awkward conversation about sex and lack of desire for, with an ex............

 

so in my opinion others will differ, take the space you were thinking of, you need the space to move on as well as your ex.....I wish you all the best save your poetry for someone who loves you and wants to be with you be epic for that person she is out there, go find her...........good luck ....deb

[Mike_d]

What the hell are you thinking?? She dumps you for a "friend" and you somehow want her back? To the point that you wrote her very day through a secret email account? Really? This is the kind of woman who 1 is banging your friend and 2 still is open to taking your emails. Said it before to myself and others and I'll say it here. How exactly is this a great girl for you?? This girl is garbage and isn't interested in you. You need to get some help and move the eff on, you are grasping at straws for any kind of contact with someone who totally sh.t on you, that is incredibly unheathly, consider getting some professional help

[Balzac]

Ok now you are developing the big picture a bit more. Can you speak about the "clone" she is working on? Same field, younger, lesser accomplishments, postdoctoral maybe?

 

Granted she's brilliant but how much of her relationship with you was "mentoring" or her gliding along on your slipstream? Was that a normal progression? Is her wanting to prove herself independent of you a normal scientific developmental task?

 

How emotionally vulnerable are you to be sharing daily space with her? This has little to do with your psychological strength; more about seeing, hearing about the what I call her poor decision making.

 

You had a long relationship, it sounds as if you lived together.

Was she a student during that time?

 

As we both know, intimate knowledge and psychology give you a distinct advantage. High level chess can be motivating, intriguing and you are well experienced with delayed gratification! What's your immediate gut reaction?

You've decided against blocking her from this professional opportunity. Is that normal desire for access and control or some other factor?

Edited August 19, 2012 by Balzac
Hard to walk away from a challenge, I get that part of this

[Mint Sauce]

Balzac, it's a pity you're on the other side of the ocean. I'd like to have a beer with you.

 

Ok now you are developing the big picture a bit more. Can you speak about the "clone" she is working on? Same field, younger, lesser accomplishments, postdoctoral maybe?

yes, same field, same major hobby (cycling, in which I actually educated him, but he's not yet a match for me ), she bought him the same clothes as I wear, he expresses the same romantic ideals, but obviously doesn't live by them. But indeed, 8 years younger than I am, he's in his last year of his PhD even. She finished her 3rd year as post-doc, and now joins me for something akin to a tenure track at the institution I work at. I'm 4 years beyond that.

btw, she also expressed that in him, she recognizes parts of her very first boyfriend. He's the perfect combination, quoi. And with 8 years gained, no need to worry about real commitment any time soon.

Granted she's brilliant but how much of her relationship with you was "mentoring" or her gliding along on your slipstream? Was that a normal progression? Is her wanting to prove herself independent of you a normal scientific developmental task?

I've had some influence, I've done some mentoring, but her achievements are her own, and she knows that. But it's true that she's always been in my shadow, while with the new guy, she's the one with experience. On the other hand, after all these years, I still don't know whether she's really ambitious. It all comes very naturally to her. Her PhD was finished months before the deadline, without any hours outside office hours.

 

How emotionally vulnerable are you to be sharing daily space with her? This has little to do with your psychological strength; more about seeing, hearing about the what I call her poor decision making.

Frankly, it's going to depend on how she does in her new life. I saw her today. She looked tired, gained some weight, and although she managed to keep the conversation on a light, happy note, I saw the sadness in her eyes. And no, that's not wishful thinking from my side. If she's going to be like this, then I can take it. If she's pregnant within six months, I'll suffer from massive jealousy. If she really collapses, I'll suffer from compassion and not being allowed to help.

 

You had a long relationship, it sounds as if you lived together.

Was she a student during that time?

She was my student for a project during her masters, but there was no attraction at the time. She was in the middle of her PhD while we got together, and yes, we lived together for 3 years, and bought/renovated a house together (although legally I'm the only owner).

As we both know, intimate knowledge and psychology give you a distinct advantage. High level chess can be motivating, intriguing and you are well experienced with delayed gratification!

hehe, you really are a guy I'd like to have a drink with. Indeed, perverse as it is, the high level chess game is intriguing: today, I found out that she reads my emails to the secret account more quickly than I thought, but marks them as unread again. Then, a few days later, she marks them read. I know because she referred to one which was still supposedly unread in the hotmail account. God, I love this kind of subtle play with her.

What's your immediate gut reaction?

You've decided against blocking her from this professional opportunity. Is that normal desire for access and control or some other factor?

You're going to say "bs", but the main reason is that I have an overly developed sense of loyalty (This has played very often in my life). I just can't do that to her. I know she's not a bitch, in spite of what she did/does, she doesn't deserve such a setback in her career. But yes, in 2nd order, there may be a desire for access and control

 

 

As a quick reply to Mike_d. You read the part about the chess game above? She's a great girl for me because she's not some chick from the diner that needs help tying her shoe laces. I can admire her, I can "play" with her, and throughout the last 6 years, she's been enormously good for me. Including just being very kind, supportive, affirmative. But she has issues. Issues that I'm willing to accept because of what's in it for me. And yes, I'm getting professional help, I'm seeing my analyst again. I was on his couch 2 times a week for 3 years, but this time it's face to face.

 

One of the most amazing things my ex does, which nobody ever before managed, is the following. I'm not a big talker. Often lost in thoughts. That may be during hours walking besides her in the forest. But every so often, a thought comes very close to the surface, I would almost say it out loud, but not really. At that very moment, she goes, after say 90 minutes of silence: "go ahead, tell me". God I love her for that sensitivity.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Mint Sauce
response to Mike_d's suggestion to get help added.

[Balzac]

Proost in our cyber cafe!! Nay, nay sayeth me on your "BS" comment. Loyalty, even when maximally developed, is as you so rightly tagged it-romantic ideal, life code, manly man fiber.

 

I'll begin with personal comments about psychotherapy. In my world it equates to personal indulgence in self-care; mental massage, emotional facial or personal trainer. The pleasure of a hopefully brilliant mind, paid to indulge my verbal whims and machinations, protected by privacy laws! Not quite pornography but pretty damned close. Never would I eschew it's therapeutic purpose but in my mind one does not need to justify indulgence. Psychotherapy is the divine emulsion of science and art.

 

The four most troubling words from your recent response.

Weight Gain

Fatigue

Pregnancy

 

Bottoms up/slams down beer stein, contemplates remainder of my response. Very serious those four words.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Balzac
Jealousy is too small a word fine sir!

[Mint Sauce]

short answer: I don't think she is. But if she is, I wouldn't know, and she'll abort. In any case, it would be his, not mine.

 

But really, my gut feeling is that she isn't.

 

He's out of the country for a few weeks. She locked herself inside, in spite of the beautiful summer, spending days on boring fora (yes yes, i know where I am), and chatting with him at night (time difference).

 

I say she's struggling with the situation, not pregnant.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Mint Sauce

[Balzac]

Asked and answered on the four, good enough. So my take is keep up the secret online emailing. It's most intriguing to read her little clicks n mind gaming as to read, unread haha! The femanine mind and emotional vulnerabity in chiral beauty. Don't we stand in awe of their complexity? She's hooked into that closet and knows you are watchful. Enjoy the connection.

 

You know what your goal is. You can maneuver on multiple levels and the ONLY downside or loss of investment value is time. The pain to pleasure ratio is unknown and yet as we both know~pain can amplify AND elicit pleasure. You'll collect your data, follow your gut and act accordingly.

 

Eight years is a Pfft. You have it all over The Clone. You have history, less to prove and greater patience. He has to deal with you, holding sway and in full observation. That's a bit of stress for a young turk.

 

Hang in there, continue posting and remain confident. This is not the standard situation and I fully understand your strategy.

 

Enjoyable read btw. Compelling and a dynamic in a crucible. She's not done with you is my take on it. Run parallel strategies and you'll be fine. I hate the pain factor for you. Hate it for her too actually.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Balzac
Cause of her collapse would be?

[Mint Sauce]

Ha, this conversation here is dangerous self indulgence with a partner-in-crime, and much less privacy. I feel self destruction breathing down my neck.

My therapist doesn't allow such playtime

She's hooked into that closet and knows you are watchful. Enjoy the connection.

D**n that struck a chord. You read and speak very well, Honoré.

Eight years is a Pfft. You have it all over The Clone. You have history, less to prove and greater patience. He has to deal with you, holding sway and in full observation. That's a bit of stress for a young turk.

My position has one weak spot, and it is exactly this: complexity. Part of her has had it with complexity. At least she told me she doesn't need my 3D, she's happy with his 2D character.

 

You know, we used to have the secret emailing going on the other way round many years ago: while I was in NC with her, abroad for a postdoc, and trying to save my marriage. She wrote me every single day for an entire year. I never responded, but she new I read and re-read every single word she wrote...

That was the time she collapsed (as I fear she will now), as I heard from my friends at home. It took a year from her life, where all she did was obsess about me. Although it was all focussed on me, I'm sure it was a much larger burden of life that suddenly pressed its full weight on her chest.

And, intriguingly, at that time (5 years ago), she slept around. She never confessed to that, until a few weeks ago when everything was being put on the table. I think that hurt me even more: that during all these years, she never came clean with me. She presented herself as faithful and waiting in her emails, but it was not really true. She should have confessed that at some point while we were in a stable relationship. E.g. that time after my return when we were unpacking my stuff, and she got an indication that I had tried to re-initiate sex with my (at that time still) wife, and she was truly heartbroken for days. And this while she had slept with several guys at the very same time. And she still claims that sex for her is not intimate. She's so confused...

 

I hate the pain factor for you. Hate it for her too actually.

Actually, intriguing as the chess is, and as much as I enjoy still having this connection with her (this is sex at a level The Clone can only dream of) I think I have to stop it because of this. We're not some bright, sensitive adolescents playing a risky game. We're adults with big emotional investment. I can give her some games as seasoning on the dish, but this can not be the foundation/continuation of our relationship.