Why?

August 12, 2012

Proof that god and heaven exist? I don't have to prove it because the burden of proof is upon the folks who claim god and heaven exist.

Well that's not enough evidence for me.

I always find this challenge to any Christian interesting.

Why, exactly, am I required of you in any way to prove anything about my beliefs to you?

That's not my job.

You want Christians to go through physical evidence, journals, fact-sheets, archaeological digs etc etc etc to refute you to PROVE that our God exists.

You know what? YOU sincerely want to find out the reasons why we believe these things and why we back them up so fervently, YOU do it.

Read the bible, read some supporting books, go to church, ask in earnest, pray etc etc etc.

Upon taking up the cross (of which I am not active at this point) we swore to testify and witness of him, not PROVE.

True Christians don't coerce, lie or guilt other people into believing.

True Christians ask for others to explore truth and find spiritual live and offer hope.

Why should I or any other Christian have to share our most intimate spiritual thoughts and feelings for some guy on the Internet that demands "proof" and is just going to take those intimate thoughts and feelings and rip them down?

We already know what you think of Heaven, that's abundantly clear in the OP.

If you don't like the BEHAVIOURS of other Christians, then deal with that. Ask about why Christians feel the need to do such dumb crap as I've seen certain churches do. Ask if that's the norm. Address the BEHAVIOURS of Christians that you find annoying.

As for our beliefs, who are you to try to rip away any kind of hope for something better in this crazy, madness and hate infested world?

August 12, 2012

I wouldn't burn you at the stake. (I'm squeamish)

Oh but thats what the Christian church did for centuries to evil people like me.

So, since hurricanes and other natural disasters happen where God doesn't slap the waves back from the believers, he clearly doesn't exist or care?

Why would he care about life/death so damn much if that relationship continues on throughout an eternity regardless?

So what you are saying is god has time to answer the average Joe's prayers, (see: the "Anyone's Prayers Answered" thread) But he doesn't have time to save "believers" from a terrible death in an earthquake or hurricane. Really? Seems some of you like to have it both ways.

And don't insult me by telling me God moves in mysterious ways. That's such a cop out. Why does God answer Mary Joe from Arkansas prayers and performs a miracle for her, but lets entire families of Church-going god-fearing people be killed in New Orleans.

Just sometimes he shows us personally beyond the shadow of a doubt. And sometimes he asks us to cling to that faith and remember what we have with him and the promises he made to us.

So in your own words and ideas, you could invent a better, more convenient universe and because this one doesn't line up to your expectations, there is no God.

Well YS, what needs changing, tell us how God would need to change in order to be a God that you would find acceptable?

Any evidence other than the bible would be good. Since he is all-powerful and omnipotent I expect far more evidence of his existence than blind faith and a 2000-year-old book of fables.

I always find this challenge to any Christian interesting.

Why, exactly, am I required of you in any way to prove anything about my beliefs to you?

That's not my job.

Uh ya it is. You folks make some pretty big value judgements based upon his rules and your beliefs. A big one is who is going to hell and who is going to heaven. Another is gays are damned. Another is taxes, your church doesn't pay them. It just takes and takes and takes and never gives back any of that money. Yet when you donate to a church you get to write that tax deduction off. So the lost revenue from taxing Christian churches does have real implications here on Earth which affect us non-believers.

So those some examples why I am asking for proof that the basis for your belief system is real. I don't think it is morally acceptable to make a profit off of conning people into believing something that is refused be proven.

You want Christians to go through physical evidence, journals, fact-sheets, archaeological digs etc etc etc to refute you to PROVE that our God exists.

Ah ya. I do. If god is the most important thing in the universe then I expect some valid documentation on this other than a 2000-year-old book. I am doing my due diligence regarding claims that "god exists."

You know what? YOU sincerely want to find out the reasons why we believe these things and why we back them up so fervently, YOU do it.

Ahhh... that's a great cop out but I do not claim there is a guy who rules over the entire universe and answers prayers. So I don't have to prove he exists. It is up to the people who claim it is true to show us "unbelievers" that it *is* true. But every time you do that they refuse.. or direct me to the same iron-age document over and over.

True Christians ask for others to explore truth and find spiritual live and offer hope.

Hope of what? You won't document or verify these promises that God makes outside of the bible. And only if I succumb to him will I be saved. I refuse to do that until I see some evidence of his existence. Shouldn't be so hard to prove the existence of the most important thing in the universe.

Why should I or any other Christian have to share our most intimate spiritual thoughts and feelings for some guy on the Internet that demands "proof" and is just going to take those intimate thoughts and feelings and rip them down?

Because if it is true it should be easy to verify with empirical evidence rather than an ancient book of legend.

We already know what you think of Heaven, that's abundantly clear in the OP.

Have you been to heaven? Know anyone who has been there? Seen pictures or video? Postcards? You claim and believe it's real.. so make me a believer. Aside from the bible what is you evidence of heaven's existence?

As for our beliefs, who are you to try to rip away any kind of hope for something better in this crazy, madness and hate infested world?

Because if they are fake and false beliefs then they are bad. They are holding you as slaves in an ancient dogma which is hamstringing your evolution. I think that is wrong to do that.

Edited August 12, 2012 by YellowShark

August 12, 2012

I always find this challenge to any Christian interesting.

Why, exactly, am I required of you in any way to prove anything about my beliefs to you?

That's not my job.

Because Christianity did everything in it's power in the last 2k yrs to spread it's influence and convince ppl.

It invaded blank minds, or corrupted other minds from their own religions, with ... proof ?

When ppl are born they are a blank slate.

We are told to believe in this omnipotent, omnipresent being that sees controls our afterlife.

I want some damn proof about this.

I know that i am a God, and i can proove it, but why does He get to not show proof ?

August 12, 2012

Because Christianity did everything in it's power in the last 2k yrs to spread it's influence and convince ppl.
It invaded blank minds, or corrupted other minds from their own religions, with ... proof ?

When ppl are born they are a blank slate.
We are told to believe in this omnipotent, omnipresent being that sees controls our afterlife.
I want some damn proof about this.

I know that i am a God, and i can proove it, but why does He get to not show proof ?

My sentiments exactly. The line goes only if I succumb to Jesus and follow gods rules will I only know him. Well before I succumb and be a slave to ancient dogma I require more proof other than an ancient book of fables.

I was given my intellect for a reason, and I expect to evolve as a human being. I don't desire to follow unproven belief systems simply on blind faith and a book of legend. Call me crazy.

Why is it so hard to prove the existence of what is supposed to be the most important "fact" in the universe?

August 12, 2012

Doesn't that negate the first bit about having all this evidence for god's existence? ahhhh ... but the essence of a relationship has no physical basis, does it? You're not physically part of that person's body, you don't completely know his mind or will, and when you think of it, you can't be completely sure that the relationship is solid. No matter how devoted you are to a person, there will be some level of suspicion. And that's what I'm talking about: Even if God could be measured by physical means and you saw him right before your eyes, would you still give yourself wholeheartedly to someone you don't know completely? Probably not, because it's human nature to hold back.

and you posit that by having actual proof of God's existence, people would believe? Just go to about any forum here on the Shack and see just what strong level of belief and trust people have in their relationships with each other, even the healthy relationships.

which is where faith ~ in a partner or with God ~ plays a huge role, because it's that leap of faith into the unknown by saying "I trust in this."

August 12, 2012

I don't desire to follow unproven belief systems simply on blind faith and a book of legend. am curious: Do you consider yourself a good person? Why? What in your genetic/psychological make-up makes you that type of person? Isn't it just arbitrary, or is there some sense innate goodness, and what does that stem from?

Do you obey the laws of society (no killing, no speeding, no stealing, etc.)? Why? They're just rules inflicted on you to control you.

August 12, 2012

.... am curious: Do you consider yourself a good person? Why? What in your genetic/psychological make-up makes you that type of person? Isn't it just arbitrary, or is there some sense innate goodness, and what does that stem from?

Do you obey the laws of society (no killing, no speeding, no stealing, etc.)? Why? They're just rules inflicted on you to control you.

Absolutely I choose to follow the rules of society. They are called laws. But I do not choose to follow ancient scriptures written 2000 years ago. Why? Society and human beings have evolved intellectually since "the time of Christ." Significantly.

And I chose not to use the bible as my yardstick for morality. One reason is it has a lot of immoral things in it, and living as a slave to ancient dogma just isn't my thing.. For instance I can do better than making a moral judgement regarding who a gay person may or may not love.

So all I am asking is for proof of the most important "fact" in the universe, and if it is true what the heck you gonna do with eternity? Eternity is a long time even for demi-gods, angels, fairies, goblins, or multi-dimensional time-warping believers.

August 12, 2012

Morning,

Am I right to take this as you saying that beliefs can be chosen on a whim? That's going to be a problem, because I think beliefs are the product of many things, from preconceived biases to sensory input, knowledge and experience.

Some people may be adept at practicing self-delusion, but I am not one of them. You can tell me it's a choice to believe in god, but until I find a compelling reason to alter my views, it's not going to happen.

No, not a whim.

Well this is going to get back to again what exactly would compel you? I honestly don't know

Fair is, in this case, everybody being given the same chance at salvation, which for reasons I've outlined is demonstratably not the case.

If we're going to get into God's justice and operate on that paradigm, we're going to have to get into the bible. I welcome that, but I know before you said that stuff doesn't interest you so I'll leave it up to you.

And, as pointed out, this leads to people having to create exceptions and loopholes to address the obvious injustice of it. This points to an imperfect plan, which is not in line with the notion of a perfect being. Once again, Christianity buckles under the weight of its inconsistencies.

Well I think that's based on your definition of injustice and what a perfect plan would be. You're welcome to have that view, but it doesn't undermine Christianity IMHO.

do you really think your free will has been compromised and that you are coerced into accepting the knowledge you've attained?.

My free will hasn't been compromised. That's the point

It seems like an oddly anti-intellectual argument to be put forth by an 17th century intellectual and forwarded on by a qualified scientist.

Well I was just trying to give you a theological answer outside the bible (do I at least get points for that?) to the question you posed about what God has to lose. Pascal tackles it from the perspective of what we have to lose. It's an interesting read, but I'm not sure if you read the link or not. If you think its odd and anti-intellectual I won't bother you with it anymore.

And what choice do you have now? Believe in me or go to hell? Thats all you have and thats not much different if he showed himself.

Fair enough. I was just giving another perspective for you to chew on. You don't have to accept it

August 12, 2012

Absolutely I choose to follow the rules of society. They are called laws. But I do not choose to follow ancient scriptures written 2000 years ago. actually, we all do ... our civil law has basis in The Ten Commandments, and much of the documents that provide the framework for the country are also based in Christian belief. Well, that's if you're a U.S. citizen. But I believe that many other countries have similar "murder is bad, stealing is bad, etc." laws.

which again, makes me ask, where does the desire, as a human race, come from? And what makes us stick to it when we can be little gods of our own choosing and not give a rat's azz about protecting each other's rights?

Christians believe that man is made in God's image: Not in an egotistical sense, but in a way that we are what is good and holy and possess that desire to do right.

August 12, 2012

if it is true what the heck you gonna do with eternity? Eternity is a long time even for demi-gods, angels, fairies, goblins, or multi-dimensional time-warping believers. simply because *you* don't care for the idea of eternity, doesn't mean someone else doesn't find it invaluable. Or, to put it in a more easily grasped idea, when you love someone, and you build a life with someone, you're good with the idea of that love, that relationship being eternal because this is where you want to be. You can't visibly measure the love you have for the other person (you tend to fall short, because there's no standard that is proper for measuring that our mind can grasp, though we try to simplify it as "to the moon and back" to reassure ourselves it's that grand. But I digress!) ... there is no visible measurement for loving someone, no way to see that love, yet we trust implicitly in it and it's what we want for ourselves.

why would a belief in God ~ or wanting to spend eternal life with him because I love him ~ be any different, or even scary? That relationship is a gift of love from him, solely for me, much like what I share with my husband is solely mine.

August 12, 2012

If we, categorically, 100%, could prove His existence, there's no test. There's no benchmark, there's no way people who wouldn't have put faith in Him, would be forced to believe. That loses the point. You wouldn't be putting faith in Him, and it wouldn't be a choice to live by His standards, and rules set in the Bible. It would be like having the police living inside of your home, and you know they're there, seeing everything you do. Naturally, you're going to follow the law, aren't you? But not by choice, but because you know there'll be consequences to pay if you don't.

Have you noticed that when a police car is on a road, everyone abides by the traffic laws, that they may not otherwise? I think if people KNEW without a shred of doubt, that God existed and being omniscient, and omnipotent, could see everything we did, including our sins, we would abide by the rules of the Bible. God does not want that. He does not want us to love Him out of obligation, or coercion. God wants us to make the right choices out of faith, and out of our love for Him.

Running back to the police analogy, just because you follow the law whilst you know you're being watched, does not make you an "innocent" person, does it? I hope you all got my meaning with the analogy. I have a tendency to run off into tangents, and well, sometimes they aren't obvious.

The basis of my point is that if we all knew God existed, because He came down and showed us, we would all go and follow the Bible, and live exactly as He set out in that book. That wouldn't make us good people, that makes us people living out of fear of consequences.

Interesting perspective! You have a good way of putting things.

BTW is that the Lacey from Flyleaf in your avatar? Love that band!

August 12, 2012

To answer an earlier point about why God doesn't just show Himself so that we can all believe, and I'm sure this point has already been made, far better than I can make it, but then He wouldn't have our faith, would He?

If we, categorically, 100%, could prove His existence, there's no test. There's no benchmark, there's no way people who wouldn't have put faith in Him, would be forced to believe. That loses the point. You wouldn't be putting faith in Him, and it wouldn't be a choice to live by His standards, and rules set in the Bible. It would be like having the police living inside of your home, and you know they're there, seeing everything you do. Naturally, you're going to follow the law, aren't you? But not by choice, but because you know there'll be consequences to pay if you don't.

Ok.. So lemme get this straight. God doesn't reveal himself because if he did it would violate free will. We would act differently. Hmmmm... that's an interesting theory. But in the bible god revealed himself continuously. And if everything is part of God's plan then I really don't have any true free will anyways... do I?

The basis of my point is that if we all knew God existed, because He came down and showed us, we would all go and follow the Bible, and live exactly as He set out in that book. That wouldn't make us good people, that makes us people living out of fear of consequences.

You already are living out of fear of consequences. The little Heaven and Hell thingy. God and Satan.. Remember?

..actually, we all do ... our civil law has basis in The Ten Commandments, and much of the documents that provide the framework for the country are also based in Christian belief.

Agreed. I cant go back and change that. Still doesn't prove god's existence.

.. simply because *you* don't care for the idea of eternity, doesn't mean someone else doesn't find it invaluable.

The human mind is incapable of even comprehending eternity. That's whats so absurd about it all. I don't think people have really sat down and asked why they are following a belief system written 2000 years before antibiotics, space travel or electricity. And this belief system promises eternal life in Heaven as the big payoff. So what the heck you gonna do for all that time? You can only bend space-time and visit with loved ones for so long then you would get really bored. Another in this thread said she would spend eternity discovering God. Well I don't think it's healthy to be that obsessed. And I don't think many have thought seriously about what "eternity" really is.

why would a belief in God ~ or wanting to spend eternal life with him because I love him ~ be any different, or even scary? That relationship is a gift of love from him, solely for me, much like what I share with my husband is solely mine.

You don't even know God. Has he ever come over for dinner? Ever talked to him on the phone? I am not being flippant harmfulsweetz but think about what you are saying. You would like to spend eternity with someone you only know from out of a 2000-year-old book. That's kinda a really huge commitment to make considering you've never met the guy.

As a Christian you probably think Scientologists are nuts. Well we agree there, they are - evil alien souls controlling humans indeed. Kooky huh? But it's really no different than what you believe. Scientologists can't prove evil aliens souls exist, and you can't prove God or Satan exists.. (except when they conveniently appear in "the bible.")

Edited August 12, 2012 by YellowShark

August 12, 2012

Ok.. So lemme get this straight. God doesn't reveal himself because if he did it would violate free will. We would act differently. Hmmmm... that's an interesting theory. But in the bible god revealed himself continuously. And if everything is part of God's plan then I really don't have any true free will anyways... do I?

Hi Yellowshark,

That's a good theological issue Free will and pre-destination. Lots of interesting perspectives on that.

Agreed. I cant go back and change that. Still doesn't prove god's existence.

Actually, there is an interesting argument regarding morality and God. Not proof though! Just a though experiment. It's the moral law argument. Several variations of this argument out there.

Here it is:

Objective moral values are those values that are true, independent of human belief, opinions, or perceptions of them.

Definition of God = Its existence is uncaused, morally good, all powerful, all knowing, personal, the prime/first mover

If God does not exist, then objective morality does not exist.
Objective morality does exist.
Therefore, God exists.

Have fun! Lol

More info:

The Moral Argument for God Part 2: Does Objective Morality Exist If God Does Not Exist? | Maverick Christian

Debate Topic: If God does not exist then Objective Morality does not exist | Debate.org

August 12, 2012

Well I don't think it's healthy to be that obsessed. :lmao: ... okay, this just made me giggle. Not in an irreverent ... well, PROBABLY in an irreverent sense, but it just did. I suppose to someone looking on to a relationship they just can't fathom, it does look like obsession.

however, I assure you, I don't go hanging outside stained-glass windows, spouting bad poetry or worse singing, it's a VERY private obsession in most regards :bunny:

August 12, 2012

Hi Yellowshark,

That's a good theological issue Free will and pre-destination. Lots of interesting perspectives on that.

I haven't even open that can of worms because you simply cant have both.

Actually, there is an interesting argument regarding morality and God. Not proof though! Just a though experiment. It's the moral law argument. Several variations of this argument out there.

Here it is:

Objective moral values are those values that are true, independent of human belief, opinions, or perceptions of them.

Definition of God = Its existence is uncaused, morally good, all powerful, all knowing, personal, the prime/first mover

If God does not exist, then objective morality does not exist.
Objective morality does exist.
Therefore, God exists.
Have fun! Lol

My answer to that argument is why can't morality exist absent of God? I need not tie the two together. If we don’t exist - which means life didn't evolve - then there is no moral law about murder.. because there *would be* nothing to murder. God doesn't even enter the picture. Quite the mind bender but there ya go.

August 12, 2012

My answer to that argument is why can't morality exist absent of God?

Haha good one.

Well, if morality is not objective (exists separately from God), then it is subjective. The argument states that on atheism there are no objective moral values, its all subjective.

That means its merely the product of social evolution, i.e. there is no action that is inherently evil in and of itself. Evil is merely the antithesis of a cultural norm that is based on a particular set of societal norms. So when we say something is evil, it's pure subjective opinion. We can't really say something is evil, only that it defies our subjective social convention.

But we are rational in saying there is objective evil, i.e. the holocaust, 9/11. What do we appeal to? What is the basis for objective moral values?

Edited August 12, 2012 by TheFinalWord

August 12, 2012

Thats exactly why you claim to love him. Its completely out of obligation and fear of burning in hell. What you wrote makes no sense at all. Christians fear Gods wrath plain and simple. That is why you follow the bible and I dont see how you cant admit that.

BG,

Are you making a universal statement about the rationale for seeking God?

How does your premise align with my testimony? I had no fear of hell when I asked God to help me. I wanted freedom from a life of drugs. For me, it had nothing to do with hell or heaven. Peace.

August 13, 2012

Haha good one.

Well, if morality is not objective (exists separately from God), then it is subjective.

Why does morality need a divine supernatural being to create it? It doesn't.

The argument states that on atheism there are no objective moral values, its all subjective.

Moral theory is based on a societal consensus, it evolves as we do.

That means its merely the product of social evolution,

Yes.

i.e. there is no action that is inherently evil in and of itself. Evil is merely the antithesis of a cultural norm that is based on a particular set of societal norms. So when we say something is evil, it's pure subjective opinion. We can't really say something is evil, only that it defies our subjective social convention.

Ya. Our views of ethics have been refined over millenia. They reflect a complex combination of moral intuitions, culture, and reason. No need for a supernatural being in the sky to create it.

But we are rational in saying there is objective evil, i.e. the holocaust, 9/11. What do we appeal to? What is the basis for objective moral values?

That's up to the individual I guess. I just know that I don't need to shoe-horn god into that equation. The bigger question is if God created everything, but God did not create evil, then evil was created independently from God. So why cant morality be created independently as well?

August 13, 2012

Why does morality need a divine supernatural being to create it? It doesn't.

That's the three point argument You seem to appeal to subjective societal standards as the rationale for morality. That's totally cool, but it implies that any society is equally correct in saying their societal values are good, even if you completely disagree with them.

Moral theory is based on a societal consensus, it evolves as we do.

That's still in line with the argument. But still doesn't tell us how we are rational in knowing that objective moral evil exists.

That's up to the individual I guess. I just know that I don't need to shoe-horn god into that equation.

If it's up to the individual, then okay, that's fine, but it perfectly aligns with the argument.

The argument appeals to your rational understanding that there is objective evil. That's all

So even if 9/11 terrorits believe they are good according to their societal norms, we can rationaly say they are objectively evil. Objective moral values exist even if one group's norms denies them, i.e. the 9/11 terrorists.

The bigger question is if God created everything, but God did not create evil, then evil was created independently from God. So why cant morality be created independently as well?

Well, if evil exists, it would be the opposite of God's nature. So it would exist as a necessary condition of God's nature. That's where free will comes in. If we didn't know about the opposite of God's nature, we would not have free will.

Good dialogue bro, gotta head out. BTW, I hope I'm not offending you with this dialogue. This is just a fun thought exercise, I'm in no way saying you are not moral Peace.

August 13, 2012

People get over drugs and other problems everyday without asking for gods help. In my opinion there is no Gods help, so congratualtions on gettiing over your drug addiction. It was you who wanted to change and thats what you did. There was no devine intervention, it was all you.

Thanks for the congrats. Well that's cool if you want to say it was in my head. I know my story and I know it wasn't (I think therefore I am lol). My main point was hell had nothing to do with it. Just saying. You're free to believe I'm in self-denial. Peace

August 13, 2012

...but it implies that any society is equally correct in saying their societal values are good, even if you completely disagree with them.

Happens every day. What flies in Afghanistan doesn't fly in America. And vise versa.

That's still in line with the argument. But still doesn't tell us how we are rational in knowing that objective moral evil exists.

I am not smart enough to go too deep into this. All I know is if I follow logic then Either god created evil - which makes him not all that good. Or evil was created in the absence of god - which means that other things can be created in the absence of god. So just maybe god isn't needed to explain everything.

So even if 9/11 terrorits believe they are good according to their societal norms, we can rationaly say they are objectively evil. Objective moral values exist even if one group's norms denies them, i.e. the 9/11 terrorists.

A hungry wolf kills a rabbit. To the rabbit that is evil but to the wolf it is good.

Well, if evil exists, it would be the opposite of God's nature. So it would exist as a necessary condition of God's nature. That's where free will comes in. If we didn't know about the opposite of God's nature, we would not have free will.

This is where you lose me. Seems god has all these amazing natures and attributes which constantly flux with every debate. The goal posts constantly move no matter what message board I am on. One minute God created everything, the next minute he didn't.. (unless he created evil..) God preordains things in some instances but doesn't in others - (see: free will.) Ugh. Gets too tiring trying to debate constantly moving goal posts.

Good dialogue bro, gotta head out. BTW, I hope I'm not offending you with this dialogue. This is just a fun thought exercise, I'm in no way saying you are not moral Peace.

No offense taken. The entire reason I started this thread is to ask what are Christians going to do for "eternity." It's an honest question. Not many think about it considering it's the big jackpot in their belief system. Eternity is a really long time, we can't even really comprehend it.

I believe in the end my energy will shift into some other state and I will go to sleep. I am ok with that. That is why I make the most out of my life now.

August 13, 2012

People get over drugs and other problems everyday without asking for gods help. In my opinion there is no Gods help, so congratualtions on gettiing over your drug addiction. It was you who wanted to change and thats what you did. There was no devine intervention, it was all you.

Prove it. Do you have "empirical" evidence to show that his drug recovery was simply his own doing and not God's? I would assume that a bold statement like that would be founded on evidence--the same evidence you routinely deman from others.

August 13, 2012

Happens every day. What flies in Afghanistan doesn't fly in America. And vise versa.

Definitely.

I am not smart enough to go too deep into this. All I know is if I follow logic then Either god created evil - which makes him not all that good. Or evil was created in the absence of god - which means that other things can be created in the absence of god. So just maybe god isn't needed to explain everything.

I think you're smart! Those are really good points. These arguments have been wrestled with a long time. Not easy to answer and philosophical questions can make you insane if you think about them too long haha

Well I would say to make that claim about God we would need to show it is impossible for God to not have morally sufficient reasons for permitting evil in the world.

A hungry wolf kills a rabbit. To the rabbit that is evil but to the wolf it is good.

For sure!

This is where you lose me. Seems god has all these amazing natures and attributes which constantly flux with every debate. The goal posts constantly move no matter what message board I am on. One minute God created everything, the next minute he didn't.. (unless he created evil..) God preordains things in some instances but doesn't in others - (see: free will.) Ugh. Gets too tiring trying to debate constantly moving goal posts.

Yeah, I think both sides can get a little frustrated. There's a lot of rubber rulers.

No offense taken. The entire reason I started this thread is to ask what are Christians going to do for "eternity." It's an honest question. Not many think about it considering it's the big jackpot in their belief system. Eternity is a really long time, we can't even really comprehend it.

I believe in the end my energy will shift into some other state and I will go to sleep. I am ok with that. That is why I make the most out of my life now.

Cool perspective. Yes, you're right eternity is hard to comprehend. For me when I think that God had no beginning, that is mind blowing. haha

I never said hell had something to do with personal triumphs. I said hell and gods wrath is the reason christians believe what they believe. You follow the bible because you believe that they way to heaven is through gods son, your lord and savior Jesus Christ. Is that right?

Well, I think it is a lot more in-depth for me than that. I can't speak for everyone.

My initial belief in God came b/c He set me free from drugs. I asked God to come into my life and save me. Hell and punishment was honestly not anywhere in my mind. A friend witnessed to me.

My desire to do drugs was 100% removed when I asked God to save me. I haven't touched them in 10 years. If you knew me before that period, you would not have thought it possible. Everything about me, I had long hair, all black, obsessed with death metal. God changed my heart dramatically, instantly.

True for me: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!"

That is why I believe. For me it's not just about evidence from this field or that. Those are good and all, but ultimately I think I am rational in believing in my personal experiences. Especially since I've experienced them so many times. Now you can say "Well you seek patterns, confirmation bias" etc. Sure, you can say that. All I can say is that God has intervened in my life in ways that I would have to completely deny my rationality to deny it to myself. You can say "Well, other people have similar experiences but with god x, y, z". Yes, but I can only speak to myself. I was agnostic, atheist, Buddhist, and into occult. None of those philosophies produced the experience I received as a Christian.

In regard to the bible, my personal experiences, starting with release from drugs, have affirmed to me that hey, I can't ignore this. There's something to it. Let me study this book and see for myself.

Now that is not to say I have no doubts and have all the answers. Both you, quickjoe, Yellowshark have asked really good questions in these threads. I don't know all the answers about God's nature and the tough questions in life. But for me, I don't need to know everything b/c of my personal experiences have produced faith. The bible talks about how a progression in faith will manifest in a relationship with God:

"You know that such testing of your faith produces endurance....endurance produces perseverance, perseverance produces character; and character, hope. "

For me, I follow the bible b/c God saved me. But it's also why I can understand why you guys don't see it my way. I would not know for certain if I did not believe God intervened in my life. I would always question, "Hell is dumb" "How can you say only one way is right" "God does evil stuff" etc. I thought that exact same way. But there is something about the revelation of God that changes that perspective. Faith is produced

I can honestly say I have put the claims of Christ to the test in my life and I have experienced God save me and guide me hundreds of times.

But I know where you guys are coming from. There are many times people ask "Do you really believe in Jesus Christ and that's the only way, that's so narrow minded?". Everything human about me wants to fit in. I want to say "no he's not the only way, yes you can do x, y, and z and it's all fine". But I can't do that b/c I would be lying based on my personal experience with God intervening in my life. To me, to lie to anyone about Christ would be the opposite of the golden rule. Even though it goes against what my human nature might want.

I would also say that I don't think my experience is unique. Anyone can do the same thing IMHO. The bible says that if you genuinely seek God with an open mind and humble heart, He will reveal Himself to you. It was interesting b/c someone said "has God had dinner with you". Kind of funny, b/c here's what Christ said

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."

Take care BG. I've enjoyed getting to know you.

Edited August 13, 2012 by TheFinalWord

August 13, 2012

Hey quickjoe,

Like I said before, start with the best reasons you have.

My personal testimony is the best reason I have. It appeals to my rationality.

It's the same thing Paul used so I often use it myself

Apostle Paul testifies before Kings - YouTube

Here's my concern with just giving you my best reasons. I wish I cloud do that, but I honestly have no idea how many reasons or what type of reasons would offer a compelling case for you. What you are asking is an enormous request IMHO b/c I don't think there is any one reason to point to. Also, I am not an expert in many fields so I would be butchering things. There are three massive fields: empirical, philosophical, historical. If it's going to be that open-ended there is no way I can satisfy that request. I have a job haha I can refer you to books and the like. There's probably tons of web sites. I can look them up for you if you like?

That's why this was never an attempt to bait you. I just was honestly curious b/c you are a smart guy (smarter than me ).

That was a different discussion, that was only because it would have derailed the topic. Having said that, in this case you asked me what is fair, and I provided a definition. If you disagree with my definition, please say why, and if you disagree with my contention that all people aren't given an even remotely equal chance of salvation, please say why. I'd be interested to hear it.

It's not so much your definition of fair, it's that you claim to know that all people "aren't given an even remotely equal chance of salvation". You are totally free to think that. But I think to make that claim and question the fairness of the Christian God you would have to outline your exegesis from scripture to demonstrate that claim. I know you have said that no one can understand the scriptures and Christians just invent things. However, there is a field called hermeneutics which is applied in legal and historical fields. It is used in biblical scholarship too (they do something in those seminaries ya know ). You forwarded this argument, so you'd have outline your case from the bible. I personally see why you make that claim, but I don't think it would stand biblically, but maybe I'm wrong so I'll let you back it up. Unless you don't want to go there and were just making a point. No problem either way. I do agree it would be way off topic. Perhaps another thread?

Well, obviously not just my definition, because plenty of Christians have struggled with this too, so much so that they invent ways around it. But I'm aware that this reply of yours is almost entirely comprised of hypothetical "well that's just your opinion" type responses, and not really addressing anything directly.

You're right, lots of people struggle with the bible. Myself included. But because someone struggles with it does not mean the biblical data itself is invalid IMHO. I think you'd have to demonstrate your case from the bible, since you are questioning the fairness of the Christian God. Correct me if I'm wrong there

Except that a few posts ago you were claiming that to have knowledge of god (rather than having to put faith in what is essentially a guess) would compromise your free will, and would amount to coercion. What I'm trying to find out is whether you apply this standard to any other form of knowldge or whether this is just special pleading on your part. Is, for example, it better to have faith in Newton's Law of Motion or be coerced into rejecting its applicability under certain circumstances based on knowledge?

Good questions.

I think you must have misunderstood me or maybe I am not saying this correctly. Or I am not doing a good job with this argument haha Def could be the case. Not knowledge or evidence, 100%, undeniable, proof. If I had 100% proof of God I would not need faith in God: and that would extend, for me personally, beyond scientific evidence or any type of historical or philosophical evidence. I don't know what could even constitute 100% proof for me. Theoretically, God would know though and could supply it perfectly for each person.

What I think you're asking is that if I have knowledge from science, does that take away my free will? No, I could still deny it, that's why there are people that believe the earth is 6000 years old

Pascal talks about judgement day as an example. Theoretically, no one would need faith on judgement day. God could make the proof of him that tangible to everyone right now. God would know for perfectly for each person, what would be 100% proof for them (it could be different, theoretically, for each person). He could give that to each person right now so that there would be no way for them to deny it. But then, they would no longer be able to freely reject God. It's a concept. I think you're trying to weigh it scientifically perhaps? But it's more of a philosophical concept unless you're saying something else?

I think we're saying the same things, kinda If you want to say it's a special plee, it's cool with me. I was just trying to show an example outside the bible. But if you don't agree with it or think its fallacious, it's cool with me. I personally do not believe my free will has been compromised. Maybe I'm contradicting myself haha

I sense that you're not to keen on bothering me with anything much at this point. Feels very much like I'm getting the wind up.

It's not that, I just can't always follow what you're saying sometimes. It could be miscommunication or that I am just slow (definitely a possibility ). That's not saying anything about you. I think on-line communication about religion is the ultimate communication challenge So many communication channels are lost, but its still fun

But I hope you don't think I don't want to talk to you anymore. I think you're a smart guy, more than me, and I enjoy talking with you. I do think that on some things we'll have to agree to disagree. But that's with everyone. And there is a real possibility some of the things I say on here are wrong and fallacious. I fully admit that. My profs ripped me apart in my qualifying exams so I am far from perfect by a long shot. The main thing I've learned from my education is that I don't know anything. The higher I go in education, the more I need other people's help. I'm a novice in so many of these topics. I think your understanding about science and evolution is probably light years beyond mine. I am definitely always learning and growing. You give me lots of food for thought so I appreciate you

Take care.

Edited August 13, 2012 by TheFinalWord

August 13, 2012

Dude, trying to have a rational conversation with a theist is the definition of absurdity.

They have a belief system that relies on the supernatural, which cannot be defined by physical reality.

Think "True Blood" - it just gets more ridiculous the deeper you get into it...

Please save your time for things that really matter, knowing that we will eventually evolve out of this abyss...

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