Do you think OW / MM are character damaged?

[Leelou]

I understand you must have been upset, but it probably would have been a good idea to ask her to please explain what she meant by that comment and how she arrived at that conclusion. Did this counselor think ALL OW/OM have character flaws, so that would automatically include you?; or, was there something about you, in particular, that she felt indicated such a flaw?

 

I'm not sure now. I think at the time I was floored by her thinking there was something deeply wrong with my character, when I had been nothing but true to my word, full of integrity, and open.. when I chose to have my affair, I, what?, suddenly became worthless, as if my past had no bearing at all on my character? I don't know what she thought. I asked her to take back what she said and she refused. So that was that.

Maybe I wrote about it in my journal, I will check and see if I find out anything that perhaps I have forgotten about.

 

To me this means that even if you think the counselor was unfair to you, yet you do feel on some level that your cheating is "wrong." Character flaw or not, the counselor called you out for having an affair. You didn't like being called out that way, since you feel it's justified based on what your husband did.

Yes, it's wrong because he is married. It's ALSO wrong because I am married, but I don't feel as bad about it, since my H continued to indulge in affairs, even though I threatened I would have one too if he did. He did not/does not deserve my fidelity. I only feel bad for the MM's wife.

 

I would say that choosing your affair partner largely because it's someone who it would upset your H if you knew about, isn't really an indication of a person who is making healthy choices for themselves, even in the context of who to have an affair with. If you're going to have one, you should choose someone that pleases you, not someone that you think would upset your h.

I was definitely attracted to MM. I would not have picked him if the ONLY reason to have him would be to piss off my H. No. I just felt 'smug' in the knowledge that my H would be annoyed to find out who it is.. call that crooked thinking.. revenge did play a part, but so did being Fed Up, being weak, being angry, being desperate, being needy, being stupid, etc etc

I can call it a 'revenge affair' but it did come after 16 years of my H's affairs, so clearly you can see it was not only a revenge affair..

 

That's what you should have asked her before you fired her. All she may have meant is that in her opinion anyone who has an affair has a character flaw of some kind. I mean you're not even saying that she ever told you WHAT the character flaw you have is.

hmm, I have to try remember what she said, but I only recall the feeling of her insinuating my character was damaged, whereas I had been nothing but decent my whole life, and I was sick and tired of being taken advantage of, by my mother, by my husband, and I put my foot down and stopped being the 'good little girl' who always does the right thing, but gets kicked in the teeth for it. I was really angry with being 'rewarded' with a kick in the teeth when I did nothing but the Right Thing. I thought, ***kit then! I'll do what they do!

 

 

It doesn't mean anything. It's one person's opinion who said something you didn't like. Since we don't know how that person arrived at her conclusion, there's no way to look at it other than as simply her expression of a possibly unfounded opinion.

It just hurt me because it felt like a mini-betrayal of me, when she should have KNOWN me better than that, when she knew me for years before that, when I had consistently been a good person inside and out. ***kit then.. I fired her. My mom's betrayal (or rather, sacrificing the good daughter for the crazy sibling/s) my husband's betrayals, and finally, what felt like my counselor's judgement on my CHARACTER... not my BEHAVIOR but my character, my soul, who I was in my heart! THAT's what it felt like!

 

 

 

I think your reaction to what she said means you know your revenge affair is wrong in the sense of not being true to your essential character. That's why you are so sensitive about it.

 

Instead of worrying about what some person said in the past, ask yourself, how can you be truest to what you believe to be your essential character?

Yes, this is what I am getting back to - my 'essential character' as you put it. Thanks.

 

I went off track for a long time there, and while the adventure was fun, and the scenery different, I want to come 'home'. I want to be authentic and true.

I want my words to ring true, to myself.

[Leelou]

the problem is that having an affair and being the other man/woman isn't just one choice...by it's very nature, an affair is a series of choices that involve dishonesty, a lack of empathy, and as unpalatable as it may be, some pretty callous behavior...

 

while these behaviors, in the short term,may not define a person's overall character, over the long term, stretching one's moral/character code to allow for this deception/lack of empathy can change a person...they may become someone they really don't like all that much

 

OP...is it worth it? You seem to be someone who does value honesty and empathy...is your affair worth going against those things that sit at the very core of who you are?

No, not worth it. Not worth it to me now, today. Maybe I thought it was worth it back then.. I remember my husband falling back on the analogy that it was easy for me because I was Miss Goody-two-shoes and I didn't ever do anything wrong, whereas he was bad to the core and couldn't help himself. I felt incensed at times.

 

On the other hand, to be fair, I don't know if I ever could have healed and moved on from my H's betrayals and damage that his serial cheating did to my psyche if I had not had the love and attention from MM. I don't think I could've escaped mentally and emotionally from my H. I think MM served a healing purpose, but at the same time I was stabbing myself in the heart of my character.

I don't know.

I don't have the answers.

I just don't know.

[Furious]

Leelou

 

I see you are finding your way home to the lovely lady you've always been.

 

This is kind of like the wizard of oz, the journey to find what you've always had but did not see it.

 

Hugs

[Leelou]

I think the affair exhibits a behavior but the intent behind the affair exibits character. I also believe that people can act out of character for a short period of time.

 

OP you deliberately planned your affair with the intent to cause harm and pain to your husband. You wanted revenge. You even chose your affair partner in advance knowing that particular person would inflict even more emotional damage to your husband. In your thirst to cause pain yoiu didn't care about anyone else who may have been hurt or negatively impacted by your revenge. You wanted the satisfaction of hurting your husband and if someone else got hurt, oh well too bad for them. Was your revenge affair with your current MM? I wonder if the character flaw your first therapist refered to was actually this malice in you, more so than the affair.

I was hardly going to pick some 'loser' as my affair partner, yes, of course I took note that MM being himself would piss my H off.. yes, I took pleasure in knowing that MM measured up to that. I guess it wouldn't have been as effective if I had picked some average guy to cheat on my H with.

 

Yes, my 'revenge affair' was with my current MM.

 

No, I don't think my therapist referred to any malice.

 

Should I contact her and ask for clarification?

 

She'll think I'm a nut job if I do, now, a few years after the fact! She's probably forgotten. The insult just stung me, which is why I remember it still.

Imagine being told by someone who is a professional, that you have trusted for years, that has seen you cry your heart out over your husband's infidelities, that has advised you and listened to you, imagine that this person tells you that your character is hopeless.. ouch!

[Leelou]

Leelou

 

I see you are finding your way home to the lovely lady you've always been.

 

This is kind of like the wizard of oz, the journey to find what you've always had but did not see it.

 

Hugs

I am just crying over this.

 

I am so sad.

[Furious]

I am just crying over this.

 

I am so sad.

 

 

Those are good tears, love yourself, you are a good person.

[Leelou]

OP,

 

is being in the affair allowing you to be the kind of person you want to be? If the traits that you value in yourself include honesty, openness, empathy, etc., then perhaps you should take a good, hard look at the the situation and decide if the affair is allowing these traits that you value to shine through, or do you find yourself working hard at squelching them down so that you can continue the affair?

Just based upon what you have written, you do seem to value to above mentioned traits...will forcing yourself to ignore them really bring you long term happiness, or just a short term "fix"?

Thanks for this.

In giving up MM, I get to come closer to having those traits back in alignment. It will take work, work and Time.

[cocorico]

OP,

 

personally,i think that someone doing something that leads to them having a guilty conscience and feeling bad but not changing their behavior is indicative of there being somethin wrong...I don't know that it's a "character flaw", but it should give one pause for thought...

 

is being in the affair allowing you to be the kind of person you want to be? If the traits that you value in yourself include honesty, openness, empathy, etc., then perhaps you should take a good, hard look athe the situation and decide if the affair is allowing these traits that you value to shine through, or do you find yourself working hard at squelching them down so that you can continue the affair?

Just based upon what you have written, you do seem to value to above mentioned traits...will forcing yourself to ignore them really bring you long term happiness, or just a short term "fix"?

 

Everyone should always act authentically and in keeping with their values and moral code, as far as is possible. That way you will be the person you want to be, without regrets, and without "character flaws" as *you* define them. Which is what ultimately matters, not the opinion of random others.

[woinlove]

Thanks for this.

In giving up MM, I get to come closer to having those traits back in alignment. It will take work, work and Time.

 

Good for you! Time spent focussing on who we want to be, how we want to treat others, is time well spent - for any of us.

 

I just read a review about a new book on studies of dishonesty. The researchers found people were less likely to cheat (in the case studies: on exams, government type forms, in services to others,...) when they were reminded about honesty beforehand. The author (Ariely) said "People want to be good. You just have to remind them that's what they want."

 

For you, Leelou, it seems that you reminded yourself, but if LS helped a bit, that is great.

[beenburned]

Leelou,

 

I'm happy to see all the progress you are making!

 

One thing that concerns me is the effects your H's serial cheating had on you.

 

You both need counseling in order to understand why he did it, and why you put up with it.

 

If you are unhappy in your marriage, just get a divorce. Your H has to pay child support, possibly even alimony.

 

Are you employed with health benefits? There are many single parents out there that have survived a divorce, and are happier people because of it.

[Toots]

I don't think OW or MM are character damaged just on the basis of having an A. Some might be because of other additional things but if that's the only issue then not.

[beachbabe82]

I didn't read this whole long thread, but it seems to me you are trying to rationalize why you had the affair (continue to have an affair).

 

I don't get why you think people telling you that it is a character/behavior flaw bugs you so much. I know some of the OW here like to say people shouldn't judge those in affairs, but they go on to sling mud at those who think poorly of those having an affair or sling mud at the wife. Kinda hypocritical to me.

 

So do you want people to tell you because you stayed with a man who routinely cheats on you that it was okay to have an affair? I won't tell you that. I will tell You my opinion is you were way wrong to do that. I will ask why you chose to stay married to someone you obviously despise. Why do you cling to a "marriage" that isn't a marriage? Get out of it for heavens sake and then you can have sex with whoever you want. If you pick another MM to sleep with, what excuse will you give for that?

 

Everyone judges everybody all the time. Why are some of you so bent out of shape about it? All you should care about is your own opinion when ya look in the mirror - not what Internet people say.

 

While I am with Billy, I know it started off wrong cause he was living with his wife. I told him I wasn't gonna continue to be his lover while he remained married. He chose to move out and file for divorce. I chose to not stay involved with him while married. We all make choices. You chose to stay married to some butt head who you knew was cheating on you and you want us all to tell you it was okay to cheat. Well, I don't think it was okay.

 

Make some decisions about your life. Stop letting people hurt you. Take a stand and make boundaries.

[bingosmom]

No, I do not think people who are in affairs are character damaged. I think we are confused and trying to find happiness; we chose an unhealthy way to solve problems in ourselves. If you can examine the reasons WHY you are having an affair, and then figure out which path you want to follow, then you will be okay if you think long and hard about what you need to be happy. That's all any of us want... to be happy and in loving relationships.

[nofool4u]

Definitely bad character if you've had multiple A's. Definitely bad character if your A's started early on in your marriage. Definitely bad character when you play the martyr.

 

So basically its only bad character to you when someone does as you do, just not exactly in the way YOU do it.

 

Either someone has cheating in their character, or they don't. Doesn't matter if someone else cheated more or in a different way than you did.

[nofool4u]

I guess what's really bugging me here is that the "character flaw" thing is being flung around rather carelessly. It's a dangerous, slippery slope to slap the "character flaw" label on someone when their moral compass or behavior doesn't align with or isn't approved by the accuser's.

 

Then I guess I can say that it would be careless of me to say someone has a character flaw because they choose to stab someone with a knife because that wouldn't be something I would do.

 

Everyone will have different ideas of "morals". But cheating and betraying someone shows a lack of morals.

[Got it]

Then I guess I can say that it would be careless of me to say someone has a character flaw because they choose to stab someone with a knife because that wouldn't be something I would do.

 

Everyone will have different ideas of "morals". But cheating and betraying someone shows a lack of morals.

 

I see the decision to parade one's children in beauty pageants, subject themselves or loved ones to second hand smoke, or allowing underage drinking in their homes so their kids don't drink else where as behavior that doesn't align with mine.

 

I guess those are character flaws as well?

 

If everyone has a different idea of morals then that stands to reason that cheating and betraying may not show a lack of morals, based upon their own set of morals.

 

Saying someone is character damaged/flawed, is a strong statement. I do not think an affair shows the best conflict resolution, communication, or coping skills. It is not usually a recipe for success in the long term. But I can not agree that as a carte blanche sweeping generalization that everyone who is in one is damaged or flawed. That is too sweeping for in my eyes.

[MourningLosses]

Isn't those of those times when every betrayed spouse will say its a character flaw/immoral and every other woman will say its not?

 

For those who were both I think it depends on which affected you more, which role you really identify with.

[jwi71]

Hmmmmm

 

Maybe we can turn this a bit.

 

John Edwards.

 

For those who say an A is not indicative of flawed character, what positive character traits did John Edwards display in regards to his A?

 

I picked John Edwards in an attempt at objectivity - unless John Edwards and his former(?) OW are posting here.

 

Anyone?

[Furious]

I think that at times in everyones's life we make mistakes, if we learn from them and grow from those mistakes, it builds character.

 

If someone repeats the same mistakes and continues to hurt themselves and the people in their lives, then yes I believe that their character is damaged.

[nofool4u]

I see the decision to parade one's children in beauty pageants, subject themselves or loved ones to second hand smoke, or allowing underage drinking in their homes so their kids don't drink else where as behavior that doesn't align with mine.

 

I guess those are character flaws as well?

 

Sorry, but you are leaving out the element of morals. Beauty pageants, smoking aren't directly morality measured. Someone who allows underage drinking in their homes, sure, there is a character flaw as they are breaking the law along with the drunken minors.

 

 

 

If everyone has a different idea of morals then that stands to reason that cheating and betraying may not show a lack of morals, based upon their own set of morals.

 

You are right, people that betray others and cheat are saints:rolleyes:

 

 

Saying someone is character damaged/flawed, is a strong statement.

 

Its an opinion. Cheaters won't see themselves as having character flaws, while those they hurt can see it that way. It isn't right or wrong.

 

 

I do not think an affair shows the best conflict resolution, communication, or coping skills.

 

It has nothing to do with any of the above. It has to do with their desire and what they wanted to do.

 

 

It is not usually a recipe for success in the long term. But I can not agree that as a carte blanche sweeping generalization that everyone who is in one is damaged or flawed. That is too sweeping for in my eyes.

 

Thats good for you. Of course you don't want to see yourself that way.

 

For me, on my side of the fence, its different.

[nofool4u]

Isn't those of those times when every betrayed spouse will say its a character flaw/immoral and every other woman will say its not?

 

I believe you are correct.

[Silly_Girl]

Sorry, but you are leaving out the element of morals. Beauty pageants, smoking aren't directly morality measured.

 

Are they not?

[alexandria35]

Are they not?

 

I suppose morals could be applied to things like smoking or beauty pageants but it's a very gray area. Most people don't smoke simply because it's a nasty habit that has grave consequences, however I can see how someone might say smoking goes against their morals because doing anything harmful to the body goes against their morals. I have never had anyone tell me smoking is immoral but I have met people who treat their bodies like temples and do their dardnest to never take anything dangerous or harmful. I've met a lot of people who find beauty pageants disdainful but I don't think I've ever heard them described as immoral but I suppose that's a possibility too.

 

On the other hand most affairs involve deceit and dishonesty and usually people wind up getting deeply hurt. IMO lies and dishonesty and hurting people are almost universally considered immoral behaviors and people rarely argue about this. As a matter of fact the OW/OM board is one of the only places I've seen people vehemenly defend these despicable actions as if it's their God given right to lie, deceive and hurt people for their own selfish gain. Sometimes reading here is rather surreal.

[carhill]

I wonder if President Kennedy was remembered as being character damaged. Did his career as a philanderer define his life? How, if so, could such a character damaged person rise to the highest office in the US and command both armies and the present and future respect of citizens? Are/were we that dense and gullible? What does it say about us?

 

That's one example of millions out there. It it were simple, there would be no debate, only body bags.

[alexandria35]

I wonder if President Kennedy was remembered as being character damaged. Did his career as a philanderer define his life? How, if so, could such a character damaged person rise to the highest office in the US and command both armies and the present and future respect of citizens? Are/were we that dense and gullible? What does it say about us?

 

That's one example of millions out there. It it were simple, there would be no debate, only body bags.

 

Hitler was also a much loved leader.