Do you think OW / MM are character damaged?

[MissBee]

"Self-reflexive"? What is that?

 

It's a process of self-reflection that uses self-reference and a conscious examination of one's actions . It's the ability to step out of one's self and examine one's actions within a wider framework of actions and how certain actions have been constructed. It's not being on autopilot, which most of us are, but really stepping outside of ourselves and seeing how X leads to Y in terms of our own lives. I got the term from social theory; didn't really realize that people probably don't use that term in regular parlance as much.

 

This definition, with example, perfectly describes what I mean ironically and conveniently enough

 

self-reflexive

 

Self reflexive describes someone making reference to their own artificiality. (adjective)

 

An example of a self reflexive critique is a politician who goes back over her life and reflects on where she may not have been totally honest in what she said or did.

Edited August 16, 2012 by MissBee

[OpenBook]

It's a process of self-reflection that uses self-reference and a conscious examination of one's actions . It's the ability to step out of one's self and examine one's actions within a wider framework of actions and how certain actions have been constructed. It's not being on autopilot, which most of us are, but really stepping outside of ourselves and seeing how X leads to Y in terms of our own lives. I got the term from social theory; didn't really realize that people probably don't use that term in regular parlance as much.

 

This definition, with example, perfectly describes what I mean ironically and conveniently enough

 

self-reflexive

 

Self reflexive describes someone making reference to their own artificiality. (adjective)

 

An example of a self reflexive critique is a politician who goes back over her life and reflects on where she may not have been totally honest in what she said or did.

 

Well I'll be. That's a new one on me, I've never seen that term used before.

[cocorico]

 

We all engage in less than stellar things at some point or another, but I think our awareness and ability to be self-reflexive as well as see its implications in a wider context determines whether that flaw is something temporary or more chronic and deeply entrenched.

 

As someone who is very familiar with the term "self-reflexive", I find this post encouraging self-reflexivity to be very interesting. It goes totally against the grain of what we're so often told here, which usually discourages self-referential posts, especially from those of us who are deemed by some others here to be outliers in some way.

 

So it's really encouraging to see that some people here like Miss Bee can hold contrary views which actually encourage posters to uses their own experience In a self-validating manner, without having those views shot to pieces Because they don't confirm to "group-think".

[mercy]

Will your signs name the wife?

 

If so I am all for it!

 

I know many gays. I attend church with them. I think they're gonna be outraged at the comparison.

[woinlove]

It is society and the concept of marriage which clearly is not functioning satisfactorily. I liked Alexandria's idea and cocorico's comparison. We are an invisible group which society wishes to remain invisible so it can keep its structure in place of keeping people where society wants them to be. I would love to see a pride parade of OW/OM/WS, protesting against the societal structure of marriage. This goes way beyond personal choices, this is a deep structural flaw in society.

 

This I don't get at all. Two people who choose to can have a monogamous M, they can have an monogamish M, an open M, a common-law M, a swinging M, they can negotiate their M to be whatever they want it to be consistent with the laws. The main restriction on the laws (outside of places which discriminate against gays) is that it is an M between two people. I have seen people effectively have an M between 3 people, but legally only two will be designated as spouses to each other.

 

Are you concerned about the restriction of legal M to two people? That still has nothing to do with secret affairs, since in the places where polygamy is legal, those people are all openly married. Exactly what do you have in mind to change M that would give the kind of status you want for secret affairs?

 

As to M not working, in North American, two people with a college education marrying at age 25 or older have ~ 80% chance of staying married for life. If those people were happy before M, they will most likely be happily M. For me and my H, marriage is great. Many others feel the same way. But no one has to get married. If you don't like M, stay single. I'm missing whatever problem it is you think needs to be solved.

[mercy]

The BSs also suffer under the same social structure which actually encourages affairs, so they too are welcome to join the parade!

 

Comparing that of a loving gay relationship, that is open and honest well is just absurd. And insulting.

 

It was extremely funny to me for a moment - the comparison, until I paused and thought about my gay friends, then the laughing stopped.

[mercy]

The BSs also suffer under the same social structure which actually encourages affairs, so they too are welcome to join the parade!

 

Also...there would be no suffering of a BS if the man and woman in the affair, stopped what they were doing. Done finished pain gone no need for a parade. Divorce and go live happily ever after. Signs in the trash.

[woinlove]

What you are saying is that if we would all conform to society there would be no suffering. What I was saying is that this is a much deeper structural societal problem which can not be solved on an individual level.

 

Why can't choosing to be honest, open and authentic in our closest, intimate interactions be "solved" on an individual level? I've done it. My H has done it. I have friends who have done it. Others posting here have done it.

 

I'm not going to let some government or society as a whole force me to deceive my H - not that I feel pressure from government or society to do so, but you suggest some do. People should take responsibility for their own actions, choices, and for their own decision to deceive and lie, if that is what they choose. Don't blame it on society.

[mercy]

What you are saying is that if we would all conform to society there would be no suffering. What I was saying is that this is a much deeper structural societal problem which can not be solved on an individual level.

 

A conformist? Me? Not a day in my life. I think that would be the only time my parents would have thought it ok to spank me!

 

I am saying openness and honesty, integrity, and above all respecting yourself is what matters. Character, being true to oneself and respecting and allowing others those same rights.

[mercy]

So what you are saying, then, is that if people simply lived honestly (instead of all the lying, sneaking, and deceiving) things would be much better for everyone?

 

Exactly, donnamaybe, exactly.

 

Never should we allow ourselves to be controlled by our character flaws.

 

There are no gray areas when it comes to character.

[mercy]

I never said I was pro-affair. I would like to see a social structure where affairs are superfluous. The stronger the belief is in the institution of marriage as a life-long commitment the more abundant affairs are. I do think Europe is ahead of the US in this. Here we practice serial monogamy rather than life-long monogamy.

 

Monogamy is two people. Not three.

 

Though if the three are open, have at it.

[mercy]

And I am saying it is not that simple.

 

It's not complicated. Complicated is used when trying to explain away a wrong.

 

That's what my dad always said to me when he'd see an injustice done.

 

Everything can be explained away, still doesn't make it right. Still doesn't make it any less hurtful.

 

Deception hurts. Period. It destroys lives.

[woinlove]

It's already obvious this problem can not be solved on an individual level. If it could, there would be no affairs. It's necessary to look at a much larger picture.

 

First, lots of people have solved it for themselves and are not having secret affairs. More people could choose to solve it themselves if they wanted. OW/OM could insist on having everything out in the open if they wanted, they could insist the WS end the M or they can end the A. If they don't want to, don't blame that on society - no one is forcing them to be an OW or WS. It is their choice.

 

Second, some people will have secret affairs no matter what system you set up, whether they are legally married or simply making promises to different partners that they have no intention of keeping. No government or society system will completely stop people who are bent on using and deceiving others.

[MissBee]

I never said I was pro-affair. I would like to see a social structure where affairs are superfluous. The stronger the belief is in the institution of marriage as a life-long commitment the more abundant affairs are. I do think Europe is ahead of the US in this. Here we practice serial monogamy rather than life-long monogamy.

 

You often talk about this, yet, people in America also practice serial monogamy. Hence so many people marry 2, 3, 4 any amount of times. Hence the divorce rate is so high, as people divorce and move on to be with someone else.

 

People aren't trapped in any life-long monogamous agreements in the US. People are by definition mostly serially monogamous. There is no law banning people from divorcing and marrying to infinity, no laws forcing people to marry, and people are from different religions and cultures which all say something different about marriage and people largely choose the marriages they want with that in mind. It seems these days a lot of people are opting not to get married period and many more people simply cohabitate rather than marry....so I personally do not find that in the US people feel compelled by social forces to marry one person for life. As a society, I'd wager that Americans are just as serially monogamous as Europeans.

 

I don't know about European statistics, and I'm sure it's also by country, but I can bet people are cheating and having As there among the married as well, and if so, if they aren't trapped into life-long monogamy like in America, what is to be blamed?

 

I'd have to research that hypothesis, that affairs are more abundant the more people believe in marriage. As in the culture I'm originally from, most people don't marry and most people are born to unwed parents and the practice of men having multiple women outside of their primary relationship is sky high....yet marriage has nothing to do with it, since most are common law relationships and aren't legal or religious sanctioned marriages.

Edited August 16, 2012 by MissBee

[MissBee]

It's not complicated. Complicated is used when trying to explain away a wrong.

 

That's what my dad always said to me when he'd see an injustice done.

 

Everything can be explained away, still doesn't make it right. Still doesn't make it any less hurtful.

 

Deception hurts. Period. It destroys lives.

 

This!

 

As I read, I thought, frankly: when people are behaving honestly, authentically and with integrity they have very little to explain to anyone. People who live this way can live by their own codes. Gandhi for example, lived by his own code, some authorities didn't like it....but no one could ever say he was hurting others or living in a way that was dishonest and there was really not much for him to go around in circles explaining. His life spoke for itself.

 

Some of the arguments remind me of teenagers who want to do what they want to do, but employ the language of them fighting against "the man" and fighting against conformity to justify it...yet often they have no cause. They want to rebel and do what they want to do (which often aren't wise things) and when their parents or other authority figures push back against it (usually for their own good and the good of others) they employ the language of them fighting against the man. Needless to say, there are legitimate causes and then people who want to do as they wish, who will turn anything into a cause so they can do it.

 

My hypothesis is that emotionally immature people (like teenagers often are, but with them it's expected) are most likely to get into As habitually or have a mindset that an A is a legitimate right that the rest of society should stop being so uptight about and respect.

 

I feel like the litmus test for when you may be just simply trying to justify at all cost, is if your life choices often require tons and tons of explanations, where gray is perpetually the order of the day, where everything starts off with and or ends with "It's not that simple..". To each her own, but life has it's complications that we can't do anything about, yet many people simply MAKE things more complicated than necessary and every choice is what determines our future and present and some people have a knack for choosing that which is complicated. Everything comes down to a bottom line, and if you've seen people who live an honest, open life of integrity, I've witnessed that peace they have where the bottom line is the explanation and where frankly, their peace and happiness are self-evident so it's not as though you even need to ask for an explanation.

 

I was reading an article about relationships and how people often want to explain some terribly long, complicated story about their relationship, because they think more details will make people understand more, when in reality the extra details are just that...EXTRA. Every relationship (and story in general) comes down to a bottom line, that can be summed up in a few sentences, and that bottom line is the core of your problem. It's usually only those with problematic relationships that find that it requires a whole evening sit down to understand. I was like, this is sooooo true! I have a friend like this...where all her stories start with "What happened was.." "It's going to sound weird but...""It's a complicate story but"...*cue eye rolls*. And I do wonder if she's not tired. Like life is complicated, but does she not see that her choices add to that complication....can she ever have a straightforward story? Why is EVERYTHING gray in her world? It's too much.

 

 

Perhaps we should all use Occam's Razor principle in our lives and relationships. The simplest answer is correct.

Edited August 16, 2012 by MissBee

[MissBee]

First, lots of people have solved it for themselves and are not having secret affairs. More people could choose to solve it themselves if they wanted. OW/OM could insist on having everything out in the open if they wanted, they could insist the WS end the M or they can end the A. If they don't want to, don't blame that on society - no one is forcing them to be an OW or WS. It is their choice.

 

Second, some people will have secret affairs no matter what system you set up, whether they are legally married or simply making promises to different partners that they have no intention of keeping. No government or society system will completely stop people who are bent on using and deceiving others.

 

Ditto...the government is not here to correct and monitor people's character flaws.

 

Some character flaws that cause certain actions, like rape, murder, theft etc. have legal sanctions, yet others don't.

 

Indeed, some people, no matter what the social setup is, will break promises, avoid, lie, deceive etc. The government/social structure cannot control that.

 

The social sciences are my field and I definitely do get that some things are social problems and societal flaws, yet some things are individually based and psychological/character based and have to be addressed on an individual level.

 

I think having an A, in a society where you are FREE to divorce and remarry a million times, where you can be married for 72 days or 24 hours, where you can go to a drive-thru chapel, where you can cohabitate, where you can choose never to marry, where your marriage is not arranged, where you can be a Hugh Hefner lol etc ....if ALL those options exist...then you can't blame that society for your choice to deceive your partner. Frankly, it seems that only OW are considering As akin to a right or blame society, so even more so, if you're not even married and are the single one, and you choose to date someone who isn't single...then who is to blame? Society? For your choice? Sorry, no. If the society was prohibiting these avenues then yes, I'd say it needs to be reorganized as it is perhaps forcing people into clandestine relationships. But it seems society has provided every avenue for you to be serially monogamous and to not be trapped in marriage OR date a married person if you don't want to.

Edited August 16, 2012 by MissBee

[Athena]

 

The long and short of it is: if you're dating a man who made vows to another and then now he mysteriously realizes he doesn't respect her and the relationship is built on lies or whatever else and you watch him continue the charade...how can you respect him? I'm not asking you personally...but you in general.

 

(...) one thing I deem some form of noble of my exAP was his effort to protect his primary relationship and not drag her name through the mud or paint her as the bane of his existence so that I'd feel sorry for him or so I would be with him. He was sure enough lying and all of that, but had he claimed he didn't respect her, she was horrible, their relationship isn't built on honesty, they never talk...then I'd look at him as a gigantic moron for attempting to hide and preserve something nonexistent. Because essentially that is a nonexistent relationship, so what's the big problem dissolving such a pointless and tiresome setup? I'd be very annoyed at such inaction in light of him saying that.

FWIW, my H would ALWAYS be really clear with his OW about his love and admiration for me as his wife. He made sure they knew he had no issues with me or our M. I still don't know why they entered into A's with him... perhaps they just wanted to enjoy the part-time benefits and perks that he provided them with; fun, sex, compliments, his wit and humour, and a good time. Of course they were ALL devastated when he left the job/country/ them and came back to his good wife.

 

I want people to understand that just because a MM has an affair, this does NOT always mean there is something wrong with his wife, or their marriage! Sometimes, it's only something wrong with HIM...

[eleanorrigby]

I think we all know that it doesn't mean that there always is something wrong with her. It also doesn't mean that there is NEVER something wrong either.

 

And even if something is wrong with her it does not mean that she (and the kids if there are any) needs to experience betrayal.

[eleanorrigby]

*shrugs*

I didn't say there was necessarily something wrong with her. I just said it doesn't mean that there isn't something WRONG. Not everyone is open to be willing to fix what is.

 

I get the feeling whenever someone brings up the fact that the BS is bad, alcoholic, mean, etc etc it's to justify the cheating. I bristle at those justifications.

[MissBee]

FWIW, my H would ALWAYS be really clear with his OW about his love and admiration for me as his wife. He made sure they knew he had no issues with me or our M. I still don't know why they entered into A's with him... perhaps they just wanted to enjoy the part-time benefits and perks that he provided them with; fun, sex, compliments, his wit and humour, and a good time. Of course they were ALL devastated when he left the job/country/ them and came back to his good wife.

 

I want people to understand that just because a MM has an affair, this does NOT always mean there is something wrong with his wife, or their marriage! Sometimes, it's only something wrong with HIM...

 

It's such a difficult thing...in terms of, personally, I still wouldn't want to know my man loves me more than his OW and I'm the Queen and she a concubine, but I do understand how it makes a difference to some.

 

I do understand how perhaps socially, if a man feels he should be married and monogamous, then he'd have secret OW. Yet, I don't think it's really society's fault, so much as you have the choice to marry those who share your values. Woinlove and her husband have an open marriage. Many people in our society find it unfathomable, yet she and he found people to marry who share their outlook and values.

 

I do think many MM want a wife, love their wives, but like those in open marriages, want to explore other options, but still want to come back home to roost. Except, instead of fitting it into their marriage, they have secret As, and then many take it further by misleading OW into believing they are almost out the door of their marriage and it's all a sham. I think socially, for many OW in this day and age, many wouldn't actually want to be considered a concubine, so most wouldn't agree to openly share with the wife, be sister wives, or wouldn't agree if the MM made it clear he loves his wife and has sex with her and likes it...so perhaps that pressures MM into being more cunning in terms of the story they tell so that they and the OW can have an A.

 

I think most OW/OM want to be special to the MP and want to be someone who is valuable and provides something another cannot. That fuels the competition factor, comparisons," he's not inlove with her but he loves her",

"I'm his primary partner, the marriage is just a paper" type of arguments. ALL of these serve to show that you're not just a bonus, you're not just on the side but you're an important, loved person. It makes sense, we all want that. However, it seems As make the situation such that in order to feel that way it has to be that the other has to be put down, whether the MP does this or the OP themselves assumes it.

[Athena]

*shrugs*

I didn't say there was necessarily something wrong with her. I just said it doesn't mean that there isn't something WRONG. Not everyone is open to be willing to fix what is.

Maybe when it's not the wife, nor the marriage that is 'missing' something, maybe it's HIM with a character flaw... can he fix that?!

 

Does he even want to?

[Athena]

It's such a difficult thing...in terms of, personally, I still wouldn't want to know my man loves me more than his OW and I'm the Queen and she a concubine, but I do understand how it makes a difference to some.

 

I do understand how perhaps socially, if a man feels he should be married and monogamous, then he'd have secret OW. Yet, I don't think it's really society's fault, so much as you have the choice to marry those who share your values. Woinlove and her husband have an open marriage. Many people in our society find it unfathomable, yet she and he found people to marry who share their outlook and values.

 

I do think many MM want a wife, love their wives, but like those in open marriages, want to explore other options, but still want to come back home to roost. Except, instead of fitting it into their marriage, they have secret As, and then many take it further by misleading OW into believing they are almost out the door of their marriage and it's all a sham. I think socially, for many OW in this day and age, many wouldn't actually want to be considered a concubine, so most wouldn't agree to openly share with the wife, be sister wives, or wouldn't agree if the MM made it clear he loves his wife and has sex with her and likes it...so perhaps that pressures MM into being more cunning in terms of the story they tell so that they and the OW can have an A.

 

I think most OW/OM want to be special to the MP and want to be someone who is valuable and provides something another cannot. That fuels the competition factor, comparisons," he's not inlove with her but he loves her",

"I'm his primary partner, the marriage is just a paper" type of arguments. ALL of these serve to show that you're not just a bonus, you're not just on the side but you're an important, loved person. It makes sense, we all want that. However, it seems As make the situation such that in order to feel that way it has to be that the other has to be put down, whether the MP does this or the OP themselves assumes it.

In a similar way to how a parent can love all of his children, so too perhaps can a MM love all of 'his women', be they the wife or his latest OW. He is generous, kind, loving, and showers his woman with attention. Once he has the latest OW onboard, then he can back off a little and she will go for longer periods of time with less than full-on attention.

 

As for my H, he works abroad, so compartementalizing is far easier for him. He keeps one life separate from the other.

 

Thus the OW is not 'on the side, just a bonus, but an important, loved person', although in the case of my H, I seriously doubt his ability to LOVE like most people can.

 

I like the way 2Sure has put it before, that a serial cheating MM is doing it for personal validation, and it's not something that will ever be 'enough' for him.

[frozensprouts]

OP,

 

personally,i think that someone doing something that leads to them having a guilty conscience and feeling bad but not changing their behavior is indicative of there being somethin wrong...I don't know that it's a "character flaw", but it should give one pause for thought...

 

is being in the affair allowing you to be the kind of person you want to be? If the traits that you value in yourself include honesty, openness, empathy, etc., then perhaps you should take a good, hard look athe the situation and decide if the affair is allowing these traits that you value to shine through, or do you find yourself working hard at squelching them down so that you can continue the affair?

Just based upon what you have written, you do seem to value to above mentioned traits...will forcing yourself to ignore them really bring you long term happiness, or just a short term "fix"?

[frozensprouts]

No. And anyone that says you have a character flaw because of one choice is very narrow minded.

 

 

the problem is that having an affair and being the other man/woman isn't just one choice...by it's very nature, an affair is a series of choices that involve dishonesty, a lack of empathy, and as unpalatable as it may be, some pretty callous behavior...

 

while these behaviors, in the short term,may not define a person's overall character, over the long term, stretching one's moral/character code to allow for this deception/lack of empathy can change a person...they may become someone they really don't like all that much

 

OP...is it worth it? You seem to be someone who does value honesty and empathy...is your affair worth going against those things that sit at the very core of who you are?

[BetrayedH]

I posted this in the OW/OM section, but I want to hear from people in the Infidelity section, and from married folk- betrayed spouses... what is your opinion?

I was told by my then- counselor of a few years, that I had a character flaw for having an A with a MM. I felt offended; I asked her to take that comment back, but she stood by what she said, so I fired her.

 

I then ran this past the shrink I was seeing (he had seen me three years, had prescribed anti-depressants) and he knew my marital history and my serial-cheating H's history. I had been faithful in a twenty year marriage with NO cheating on my side, despite several affairs from my H, over the years. I had never slept with any other man besides my H.

When I saw I couldn't change my cheating H, and my needs went unmet, and I was angry and heavily depressed, I chose to have an A of my own. It was motivated by revenge - I chose a man that if my H ever finds out about my A, that my H would be severely hurt by the knowledge..

 

My shrink did not agree with what my counselor said about me, but her cutting words have stung, still, all these years later.

I want to know what others on this board think -- do all OW / MM inherently have character flaws?

 

What does it even mean when she said I had a character flaw? Does that mean that even though I was a virgin til my husband, and remained faithful to him for the next twenty years (even though he kept having affairs) that THAT history of mine MEANT NOTHING since in the end I messed up by having an A in my forties?

Surely a person's 'character' is set by the time they are in their forties? If I had NEVER freakin' done one wrong thing in my entire life up to that point, and THEN I chose to have an A with a MM, does that mean that I ALWAYS had a character flaw lurking in me?

 

Please, what do you think?

 

I have only read your original post (not the whole thread) so forgive me if I am repeating what others have said.

 

My view is that the logical and ethical thing to do in a troubled marriage is to either fix it or get out. It is illogical and unethical to choose option #3 and to cheat. It will not fix a marriage and it deprives the betrayed person a choice. I do believe that it is clear that it is fundamentally wrong, yet some choose to do it anyway.

 

Perhaps it is just semantics but I do believe that something is "broken" in a wayward (I don't feel I know OM/OW to speak to that). I tend to stay away from "character flaw" because it almost seems to imply that it is inherent, genetic, and uncurable.

 

I do believe something is broken in us when we make a choice to have an affair. For some, it can be fixed (it's not some inherent character flaw).

 

I was in a similar position as you. After I discovered my wife's affair (we had been together for 19 years), I truly felt broken on many levels. I made the choice to have my own "balance" affair. Ultimately, it was a wrong choice and it was made from a broken place. I don't believe that I had a character flaw; I was previously one of the most honorable people in my circle and anyone would say the same. But something inside me had snapped. After I disclosed my A to my W, she felt awful that she had done this to me. I didn't put the blame on her but on her own, she knew.

 

I don't like to blameshift. My choice to have an A was my own. It was also wrong to make such a choice and something inside me was broken to have made such an irrational choice. But did I have a "character flaw?" I don't think so. This was situational, not some chronic problem. Did my wife contribute to me being broken? Oh hell yeah.

 

I don't know your story but if you are still involved in an affair, it is wrong and you should extricate yourself from it. You need to make healthy choices and this stems from a broken place. Some people stay broken, some people heal. I think it is clear that your husband broke you. But now YOU have a choice. Start making lots of consecutive honorable decisions of which you can be proud and you'll see that there is no character flaw but a return to who you were before you were broken.

 

My $.02 anyway. Good luck.