More on the Myth of Confidence...

[USMCHokie]

So, to me, this reads as those with confidence toss away negative feedback easily.

 

Actually, I think this is a skill in itself, independent of confidence and independent of dating or any particular field. I'll call it resilience, for lack of a better term, and it is a skill like any other skill that is essential to building that self-worth. If you've seen the new Batman movies, you'll remember the adage: "why do we fall...so we learn how to pick ourselves up."

 

So in order to be socially resilient in the dating context, you still need that external invalidation to knock you down so you can pick yourself back up, right...? When you've been knocked down enough, you learn that you can pick yourself up, but that's it. Getting rejected 100 times in a row doesn't make you more confident that you are desirable. It's hearing yes from a girl that will increase that confidence.

 

I find confidence and resilience to be two completely independent ideas...

[threebyfate]

You didn't reread that post of yours I illustrated.

[USMCHokie]

You didn't reread that post of yours I illustrated.

 

I did, but you didn't provide any amplifying remarks...you just told me to read it. So I did.

[threebyfate]

I did, but you didn't provide any amplifying remarks...you just told me to read it. So I did.

You weren't validated sufficiently during your formative years enough to grow that core of self-worth. During those formative years, our neural-nets are laid, how we manage to self-sooth or validate, what gives us the most satisfying dopamine hits.

 

So since your neural net wasn't mapped to self-validation, you seek it externally to get the dopamine hits.

[USMCHokie]

You weren't validated sufficiently during your formative years enough to grow that core of self-worth. During those formative years, our neural-nets are laid, how we manage to self-sooth or validate, what gives us the most satisfying dopamine hits.

 

So since your neural net wasn't mapped to self-validation, you seek it externally to get the dopamine hits.

 

Yes, indeed; especially when it came to women. And likewise with the Lovable Losers, they seek that same external validation because they can't internally validate themselves. That's the whole point of what I'm saying. The traditional belief that developed adults shouldn't need external validation isn't necessarily true. If you never received it as a child, you will have to get it somehow as an adult to "catch up" with those others who developed that core of self-worth earlier in life.

[threebyfate]

Yes, indeed; especially when it came to women. And likewise with the Lovable Losers, they seek that same external validation because they can't internally validate themselves. That's the whole point of what I'm saying. The traditional belief that developed adults shouldn't need external validation isn't necessarily true. If you never received it as a child, you will have to get it somehow as an adult to "catch up" with those others who developed that core of self-worth earlier in life.

Ever heard of neuroplatisticity? The net effect is that those pathways can be changed but it takes a lot of dedication and hard work, on the part of the individual. This is exactly why no one can change another, unless they wish it to happen.

[threebyfate]

But does that ever change? Being told your the prettiest most special kid in the world by mom and dad quickly becomes irrelevant when you go to school and kids call you out (some kids worse than others).

 

Like it or not, most validation is external when it comes to how attractive you are on the outside.

If that was how your formative years went, then what you learned was that your parents lied to you and that can create some pretty messed up emotional issues, in cognitive dissonance.

[USMCHokie]

Ever heard of neuroplatisticity? The net effect is that those pathways can be changed but it takes a lot of dedication and hard work, on the part of the individual. This is exactly why no one can change another, unless they wish it to happen.

 

It's a bit beyond my level of comprehension, but short of any physiological alteration/manipulation, is it possible to ever permanent remove thoughts and feelings ingrained in one's mind from those formative childhood years? Or are we just hiding those thoughts and hoping they don't surface? Or even worse, introducing chemicals in the body to prevent them from surfacing?

[ThaWholigan]

It's a bit beyond my level of comprehension, but short of any physiological alteration/manipulation, is it possible to ever permanent remove thoughts and feelings ingrained in one's mind from those formative childhood years? Or are we just hiding those thoughts and hoping they don't surface? Or even worse, introducing chemicals in the body to prevent them from surfacing?

I accept them as part of the mass noise that takes place in my head 24/7

[threebyfate]

It's a bit beyond my level of comprehension, but short of any physiological alteration/manipulation, is it possible to ever permanent remove thoughts and feelings ingrained in one's mind from those formative childhood years? Or are we just hiding those thoughts and hoping they don't surface? Or even worse, introducing chemicals in the body to prevent them from surfacing?

You act as if confident people never question themselves which would be so untrue. It's how you process those thoughts that will differ in how you behave. If you're routed to automatically trash yourself when criticism is received, you won't build that solid core. If you're routed to disbelieve every criticism, you once again won't build that solid core since you're delusional. But if you're routed to offset negative thoughts with logic and reasonable optimism, this is fertile territory to build a solid core.

 

I noticed you negated resilience which is a huge behavioural indicator for confidence. It's okay to screw up once in awhile since that's how you learn.

[mickleb]

No.

 

Internal validation = the internal processing of external feedback to achieve a positive assessment of oneself.

Internal invalidation = the internal processing of external feedback to achieve a negative assessment of oneself.

 

Well, I still call it internal feedback, and confidence.

 

No, it's still dependent on external feedback. You can't process information in a vacuum; that is, you can't establish a baseline of confidence from nothing. If you lock a baby alone in a cave with food/water for 18 years, how confident will he be when he is released?

 

Confidence is a feeling, Hokie. We wouldn't say a robot that has finally achieved a skill through practice has 'confidence', would we? If the feeling we call 'confidence' were purely dependent on external feedback, we'd all respond in the same way to such external feedback, wouldn't we? But we're complex individuals and all have difference balances of chemicals in our bodies (some would add 'personalities', 'souls' or even 'spirits') that mean that we all react to external feedback differently. Despite having tons of external validation, some will still feel unconfident. Despite having little to no external validation, others will still feel confident.

 

Actually, I think this is a skill in itself, independent of confidence and independent of dating or any particular field. I'll call it resilience, for lack of a better term, and it is a skill like any other skill that is essential to building that self-worth. If you've seen the new Batman movies, you'll remember the adage: "why do we fall...so we learn how to pick ourselves up."

 

So in order to be socially resilient in the dating context, you still need that external invalidation to knock you down so you can pick yourself back up, right...? When you've been knocked down enough, you learn that you can pick yourself up, but that's it. Getting rejected 100 times in a row doesn't make you more confident that you are desirable. It's hearing yes from a girl that will increase that confidence.

 

I find confidence and resilience to be two completely independent ideas...

 

Well, I just think you're twisting words and nipples in one go, here. Resilience certainly is an aspect of confidence, IMO. Resilience can be a result of not caring. Not just acceptance of survival. And not caring about what others think of you could be classed as 'internal validation'. Some people will care greatly in the same circumstances, others will not - because we all have different internal processes.

 

We're also arguing about two different meanings of the same word, in that one can have confidence in an ability to do something, and one can possess confidence (generally). The latter is usually termed 'self-confidence'. I will agree with you that the feeling that one is able to do something (in particular) will be more dependent on external feedback. Although the example given from the poster who learnt how to shoot hoops shows there is more to it than that. He felt confident he would be able to shoot hoops, which helped him stick with his practice, until he could. With self-confidence, however, the external validation does not have to be there. That's what the term means! One does not rely on validation from others, one gives oneself all the validation one requires.

 

And again, I just want to point out that you're trying to pin down a feeling. We could argue the same for 'love'. Is love dependent on external validation or internal? It's debatable, isn't it? You can't tell someone what their feelings mean, after all, can you? You can only tell them what you think their feelings mean.

Edited August 13, 2012 by mickleb

[USMCHokie]

Confidence is a feeling, Hokie. We wouldn't say a robot that has finally achieved a skill through practice has 'confidence', would we? If the feeling we call 'confidence' were purely dependent on external feedback, we'd all respond in the same way to such external feedback, wouldn't we? But we're complex individuals and all have difference balances of chemicals in our bodies (some would add 'personalities', 'souls' or even 'spirits') that mean that we all react to external feedback differently. Despite having tons of external validation, some will still feel unconfident. Despite having little to no external validation, others will still feel confident.

 

This is interesting, and it might tweak my little theory a bit...can confidence be derived from both feeling and knowledge...where feeling can be internally driven while knowledge must be externally driven? Can you feel "confident" in something without knowing whether it will actually occur?

 

We're also arguing about two different meanings of the same word, in that one can have confidence in an ability to do something, and one can possess confidence (generally). The latter is usually termed 'self-confidence'. I will agree with you that the feeling that one is able to do something (in particular) will be more dependent on external feedback. Although the example given from the poster who learnt how to shoot hoops shows there is more to it than that. He felt confident he would be able to shoot hoops, which helped him stick with his practice, until he could. With self-confidence, however, the external validation does not have to be there. That's what the term means! One does not rely on validation from others, one gives oneself all the validation one requires.

 

If you take self-confidence and confidence (in an ability) as two separate notions, then I'd offer that self-confidence is the collective of all the individual confidences. Some will make up for others. Some might not have incredible "dating confidence," but the confidence in other aspects of their life might make up for that deficiency and give them the collective self-confidence to succeed in dating. Why else would we recommend that people who struggle with dating improve their careers, fitness levels, hobbies, etc.? Because confidence in those other areas contribute to the "overall" confidence you speak of, and that alone can often negate the need for lots of relationship experience/confidence.

 

And again, I just want to point out that you're trying to pin down a feeling. We could argue the same for 'love'. Is love dependent on external validation or internal? It's debatable, isn't it? You can't tell someone what their feelings mean, after all, can you? You can only tell them what you think their feelings mean.

 

Well, emotions are often irrational, so it's difficult to break it down into 1's and 0's. But I'd still like to try, because that's how I tend to view the world myself...

[threebyfate]

You just bounced right back into your comfortable rut.

[USMCHokie]

You just bounced right back into your comfortable rut.

 

I wasn't aware that I ever climbed out of it...

[threebyfate]

I wasn't aware that I ever climbed out of it...

You were just given an explanation which included elements of psychology and neuro-psychology.

[USMCHokie]

You were just given an explanation which included elements of psychology and neuro-psychology.

 

Ok. I only briefly browsed through what you had presented and didn't go through that whole Wiki page. I'll read further into it and report back.

[threebyfate]

Ok. I only briefly browsed through what you had presented and didn't go through that whole Wiki page. I'll read further into it and report back.

Also take a look at neurochemistry and how dopamine reward centers underpin everything human beings do, think, how we act and the heights and depths we stoop, to get our fixes.

[mickleb]

Ooh, lovely, I feel like we're getting somewhere now.

 

This is interesting, and it might tweak my little theory a bit...can confidence be derived from both feeling and knowledge...where feeling can be internally driven while knowledge must be externally driven?

 

Of course it can be derived from both. But you know from reading these boards that what some will think is obvious, others just will not see. So the external feedback that one person gets can mean something completely different to someone else. E.g. if a pretty lady smiles at a guy, some guys will take this as proof/'knowledge' that the girl finds the guy attractive. Others will interpret this same action as the girl feeling sorry for them. How it is processed makes the difference. The external feedback has not changed.

 

Can you feel "confident" in something without knowing whether it will actually occur?

 

Yes. Sometimes, your confidence will be misplaced, and your prediction will be wrong. This may cause you to be less confident with your next prediction but, if you have a lot of self-confidence you may not care, or even notice your error, and go on feeling sure about your predictions. Or, you may think the thing that hasn't happened, will eventually. Sometimes, perhaps many times, you will be right. I think, to a large extent, your confidence depends on how much (or how little) you fear that thing not happening.

 

 

If you take self-confidence and confidence (in an ability) as two separate notions, then I'd offer that self-confidence is the collective of all the individual confidences. Some will make up for others. Some might not have incredible "dating confidence," but the confidence in other aspects of their life might make up for that deficiency and give them the collective self-confidence to succeed in dating. Why else would we recommend that people who struggle with dating improve their careers, fitness levels, hobbies, etc.? Because confidence in those other areas contribute to the "overall" confidence you speak of, and that alone can often negate the need for lots of relationship experience/confidence.

 

I wouldn't say it's as simple as being just a collection of your abilities. Although, confidence in specific areas of one's life can certainly trigger/boost self-confidence, and should always be sought, I think. Now we're coming back to that comfort thing we touched on before. The satisfaction one receives from other areas of one's life might encourage one to care less about, for example, dating. One might feel satisfied enough in life, due to the rewards of these other things, to not seek external validation via dating. This lack of interest, in itself, can be incredibly attractive to others. If you don't care if you receive a text from A or not, A might go to great lengths to get you to care. (Just one trite example.) Additionally, this also links with Wholigan's idea of 'smelling confidence'. We use the term 'smelling fear' don't we? Sensing a lack of fear can be as attractive as the 'smell' of fear can be unattractive. But, I think we're pretty much saying the same thing now.

 

 

Well, emotions are often irrational, so it's difficult to break it down into 1's and 0's. But I'd still like to try, because that's how I tend to view the world myself...

 

That's very manly of you! Whilst I understand your desire to do that, I think to try to quantify everything so scientifically is an impossible challenge. By sharing our feelings, and our interpretations of these, we can look for some 'general understanding' of what these 'irrational responses' mean but we can't prove anything. Isn't it the mystery that keeps our interest, anyway?

[SJC2008]

IMO when women say confidence, walk with purpose, it radiates, it all means the same thing to me:

"I like cocky/arogant men" which is fine date your type. Not everyone has the coolest gait, take me for instance. My arms are long for my height and they swing a lot. I'm flat footed and need to work on my posture. My posture has been bad since I was a kid so it's got nothing to do with my confidence level lol.

 

If a woman's attracted to you, as long as you're not a spineless chicken chit you're in!

Edited August 13, 2012 by SJC2008
Punctuation

[betterdeal]

First definition of confidence as per a quick Lycos Google:

 

The feeling or belief that one can rely on someone or something.

 

Self-confidence is therefore a feeling or belief that you can deal with whatever comes your way*.

 

How do women (and men) detect confidence? We note a person's reactions to events at a microscopic level. It can be done unconsciously or consciously. We are all often unable to articulate what our unconscious mind has picked up, but that doesn't mean it's not registered. Some may argue this incessant checking each other out by a wordless part of the mind is what others call "intuition".

 

Now, we can of course misread signs, and we can miss them too, but the general gist is, we are all good at this. Your belief in your ability to deal with life - maybe even make the most of it - affects you physically: you don't need a defensive (or offensive) posture because you believe things are alright. Your shoulders are therefore relaxed. You make eye contact enough to connect but not like some mad staring competition. You stand up because you believe there's nothing to hide from. And to the millions of serendipitous events that occur every day such as a breeze, or a car honking its horn or a door creaking, or the scent of a nice perfume, you are more likely to act inquisitively, and others will pick that up, mostly unconsciously, wordlessly.

 

You opened by saying confidence is an internal construct - it most certainly is - and it leads us to act (consciously and unconsciously) in different ways than if we are anxious or scared as our default setting. We are all set up to notice this in each other.

 

It's interesting that you saw action as being the preserve of this internal construct, and inaction our default behaviour: it isn't. We are all a bit of both; we rest, we play.

 

* Let's exclude catastrophes such as a volcano erupting because catastrophes rarely ever happen.

[RedRobin]

IMO when women say confidence, walk with purpose, it radiates, it all means the same thing to me:

"I like cocky/arogant men" which is fine date your type. Not everyone has the coolest gait, take me for instance. My arms are long for my height and they swing a lot. I'm flat footed and need to work on my posture. My posture has been bad since I was a kid so it's got nothing to do with my confidence level lol.

 

If a woman's attracted to you, as long as you're not a spineless chicken chit you're in!

 

Hmm... long arms huh?

 

The better to wrap around her with... Sorry... I discovered awhile back that I have a thing for men with a long 'reach'.

 

Note: This is an example of spinning something that you may think is unattractive and turning it into something positive.

 

About the gait and posture. Ballet, dude. Or some other dance lessons.

 

Works wonders. Seriously.

[2.50 a gallon]

USMCHokie

 

Being as you are a man of ones and naughts, I doubt that you will ever understand that there are some of us, such as myself, who do not need external validation to complete a goal. Quite simply we see something we want in life and go out and get it. And it this confidence in myself that from my earliest days, gave me an edge up in the pursuit of women.

 

And it was not the looks and glances they gave me, but going back to my high school days women were approaching me. True, part of it was that I had learned to dance, but that does not explain the come ons that I got from the gals from other high schools, who had no idea that I knew how to dance.

 

I was a short skinny kid, way too small to play in the sports that I wanted to play in, i. e. football and basketball. So my way of competing was to boink girls from other schools, especially it they had boyfriends.

[USMCHokie]

USMCHokie

 

Being as you are a man of ones and naughts, I doubt that you will ever understand that there are some of us, such as myself, who do not need external validation to complete a goal. Quite simply we see something we want in life and go out and get it. And it this confidence in myself that from my earliest days, gave me an edge up in the pursuit of women.

 

And it was not the looks and glances they gave me, but going back to my high school days women were approaching me. True, part of it was that I had learned to dance, but that does not explain the come ons that I got from the gals from other high schools, who had no idea that I knew how to dance.

 

I was a short skinny kid, way too small to play in the sports that I wanted to play in, i. e. football and basketball. So my way of competing was to boink girls from other schools, especially it they had boyfriends.

 

I've bolded all instances of external validation for your convenience. What if in every bolded phrase above, the opposite had happened during your high school days? What if a woman never approached you. What if you never had sex. Those are ALL instances of external validation that gave you that "confidence" to believe that women are attracted to you and will want to sleep with you. You seem to take those experiences for granted.

[USMCHokie]

Self-confidence is therefore a feeling or belief that you can deal with whatever comes your way*.

 

Alright, I can buy this...if you define confidence as a belief in the likelihood of something, then you can stretch self-confidence to be the belief in the likelihood that you will overcome a certain adversity. Sure.

 

It's interesting that you saw action as being the preserve of this internal construct, and inaction our default behaviour: it isn't. We are all a bit of both; we rest, we play.

 

I found this to be the most interesting part of your post, and something I had not yet considered. What is our natural state...? Is it action or inaction? Or is it both, as you suggest? And does it vary for each individual, or do all humans share the same tendency?

[GG2W]

From your answer to 2.50, what he posted is beyond your comprehension.

 

His quote, "some of us . . . do not need external validation to complete a goal . . . we go get it".

 

He said nothing about not needing external validation in his dating life, in fact in a previous post he basically said the learning experience was by trial and error.

 

And yet your reply to him was all about how much he used external validation in his dating life.

 

He is correct you will probably never understand.

 

He is not an alpha. He is not a leader> If anything he is lobo. He just lives his life the way he wants to and doesn't give a sh=t what anybody else thinks. And it is this confidence that is part of his personality that women find attractive

 

I have a friend who likes to read in trees. When he wants to read something, and he is an avid reader, he goes down to a park, climbs up into a tree and proceeds to do his reading. Quite often somebody who does not know him will notice and sometimes make rude remarks about him being in a tree. One could say when it comes to external validation, he receives the total opposite. And yet his persists

 

The point is when you say nothing is ever accomplished in a bubble, without external validation, you are totally wrong. There are a great many who do not need being stroked.

 

But people like yourself, who need this validation, can not and probably will never understand those who do not have this need.