joystickd Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 So you never went to school...? How did you learn to read...? And write...? How did you know you were doing those things correctly...? And being in a relationship is inherently a form of external validation. If shows that you are desirable to the other gender. You are no different from anyone else. Damn you are so desperate to rationalize external validation to the point of twisting our words. We don't care about but that is way not to place such an big emphasis on it. I focus on me and think I am the prize so that makes me not so desperate to seek validation from women in the sense of me doing things for them to like me. It encourages you not to try so damn hard. It encourages you to keep your dick in your pocket. 1
Author USMCHokie Posted August 12, 2012 Author Posted August 12, 2012 Damn you are so desperate to rationalize external validation to the point of twisting our words. We don't care about but that is way not to place such an big emphasis on it. I focus on me and think I am the prize so that makes me not so desperate to seek validation from women in the sense of me doing things for them to like me. It encourages you not to try so damn hard. It encourages you to keep your dick in your pocket. I could make the same statement about you being so dense as to not recognize the importance of external validation for humans in a society for the sake of your pride. I feel that most of the argument I receive against the external validation bit comes from a place of pride, where folks don't want to admit to it. The best thing they can come up with is, "oh, I don't do that..." or "I don't need external validation..." And when I present examples of when you clearly received external validation in your life, I am accused of "twisting words"...? You probably received sufficient positive external validation in your formative years as a child to establish a foundation of self-esteem and worth, but many may not have. You can't empathize with those individuals because you might not remember what it was like being a kid in the playground wondering where you stood in the world. And for some, they are still lost as adults, wondering if they have a place in the playground amongst the opposite gender. It's just that as adults, they have a much greater capacity to think about it. Also, there is a clear distinction between receiving external validation and actively seeking it. We all need and use external validation, but it's those that never truly received it who rightfully feel that they have to seek it.
Star Gazer Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 You probably received sufficient positive external validation in your formative years as a child to establish a foundation of self-esteem and worth, but many may not have. Nope. I didn't. I was virtually ignored. I found my self-worth by myself.
Star Gazer Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 I don't honestly understand your logic flow. Hobby and employment are separate issues, since employment qualification is a separate issue from confidence as a person. Apples and oranges, where conflating the two is once again, intellectual dishonesty. Yup, and not just intellectual.
joystickd Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 You probably received sufficient positive external validation in your formative years as a child to establish a foundation of self-esteem and worth, but many may not have. You can't empathize with those individuals because you might not remember what it was like being a kid in the playground wondering where you stood in the world. And for some, they are still lost as adults, wondering if they have a place in the playground amongst the opposite gender. It's just that as adults, they have a much greater capacity to think about it. Also, there is a clear distinction between receiving external validation and actively seeking it. We all need and use external validation, but it's those that never truly received it who rightfully feel that they have to seek it. Actually I got beat up a lot on the playground. I got sh*t from teacher's. I regularly got paddled in front of the class in second grade for minor things. I got put in the closet and spit on by a teacher in the fourth grade. Middle school no girl liked me or want to sit near me or stand near me in the lunch line. High school I eventually got seen as some person that would maybe blow up the school. I went to college at an HBCU and basically got rejections like "no one want you lame ass mother f****r" and variations of that. So I spent most of my childhood up until my mid 20s wondering where I stood in the world. Even when I got out of college I was so desperate to find women that liked me that I had a thing with a married woman that damaged me even more. She did thing and I reacted to them and she spent so much time attempting to make me look like a crazy person. This mindset I have gained in the last four years because I accepted I had some role in the interactions of my late years and decided not to let the past have an effect on my future anymore with the addition of some counseling.
joystickd Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 Fixed it for you. Which women? The ones he was sleeping with or the woman he was cheating on or both? I think they are all flawed. I feel sorry for all of them that they think this guy is a prize. It was your example. I'm not the one promoting cheating as 'success'. Baloney. I've called women out on their poor behavior many times. You have double standards... which I thoroughly enjoy poking at you about. Um. That's kind of a contradiction, isn't it? My male friends are obviously 'tolerating' me... But nice try.... How do I have double standards?
joystickd Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 Actually I got beat up a lot on the playground. I got sh*t from teacher's. I regularly got paddled in front of the class in second grade for minor things. I got put in the closet and spit on by a teacher in the fourth grade. Middle school no girl liked me or want to sit near me or stand near me in the lunch line. High school I eventually got seen as some person that would maybe blow up the school. I went to college at an HBCU and basically got rejections like "no one want you lame ass mother f****r" and variations of that. So I spent most of my childhood up until my mid 20s wondering where I stood in the world. Even when I got out of college I was so desperate to find women that liked me that I had a thing with a married woman that damaged me even more. She did thing and I reacted to them and she spent so much time attempting to make me look like a crazy person. This mindset I have gained in the last four years because I accepted I had some role in the interactions of my late years and decided not to let the past have an effect on my future anymore with the addition of some counseling. There are nights I have nightmares about some of this stuff. I remember getting punched in the face in the 4th grade by a 5th grader that was 13 and then getting dragged across the gym floor and everyone looking not helping me. I understand perfectly but I am not going to be all nice and offer a kind word. Hell no one ever offered that to me and that was what helped me.
Dafa Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) Nope. I didn't. I was virtually ignored. I found my self-worth by myself. Good for you. And your point is what? Is it the "if i can do it, everyone else can" argument? Just curious. Edited August 17, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
ThaWholigan Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 I could make the same statement about you being so dense as to not recognize the importance of external validation for humans in a society for the sake of your pride. I feel that most of the argument I receive against the external validation bit comes from a place of pride, where folks don't want to admit to it. The best thing they can come up with is, "oh, I don't do that..." or "I don't need external validation..." And when I present examples of when you clearly received external validation in your life, I am accused of "twisting words"...? You probably received sufficient positive external validation in your formative years as a child to establish a foundation of self-esteem and worth, but many may not have. You can't empathize with those individuals because you might not remember what it was like being a kid in the playground wondering where you stood in the world. And for some, they are still lost as adults, wondering if they have a place in the playground amongst the opposite gender. It's just that as adults, they have a much greater capacity to think about it. Also, there is a clear distinction between receiving external validation and actively seeking it. We all need and use external validation, but it's those that never truly received it who rightfully feel that they have to seek it. This is where you lose me with the whole external validation theory to be honest. I can certainly empathize with those individuals because I had experienced a similar level of ostracism in my school days up until a certain point. However, what I cannot empathize with is the unwillingness to progress, and the ease with which they seem comfortable to complain, or tell themselves that nothing will work, or even discourage others in the same situation by forecasting the same dooming fate they have bestowed upon themselves. It is true that to a large extent we respond to external feedback, but tying it to external validation is a loose concept to me, and one that allows an individual ,who doesn't necessarily receive as much as some others, to dwell in failure and never have belief in themselves to be worthy individuals and succeed in areas that require social participation and relationships with others. I understand that you are attempting to find solidarity with those who struggle, and I often do the same, but I always try to gee them up and progress past their current position which is causing them problems. I also give them advice, both practical and impractical, in order that they may successfully navigate the areas with which they struggle. This is why I cannot really embrace your theory fully, even though it makes sense, as it allows people to believe that their future success is beyond their control because they "don't receive any external validation", and it also downplays the tenacity of those who have succeeded despite being in the same position as those who believe they haven't received external validation.
betterdeal Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 Women aren't necessarily attracted by "confidence." "Confidence" is merely an internal construct that creates a bias for action, and it's the results from a man's tendency to act that women perceive to be an attraction to "confidence." So, if you believe this to be true, are you going to act on it?
joystickd Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 This is where you lose me with the whole external validation theory to be honest. I can certainly empathize with those individuals because I had experienced a similar level of ostracism in my school days up until a certain point. However, what I cannot empathize with is the unwillingness to progress, and the ease with which they seem comfortable to complain, or tell themselves that nothing will work, or even discourage others in the same situation by forecasting the same dooming fate they have bestowed upon themselves. It is true that to a large extent we respond to external feedback, but tying it to external validation is a loose concept to me, and one that allows an individual ,who doesn't necessarily receive as much as some others, to dwell in failure and never have belief in themselves to be worthy individuals and succeed in areas that require social participation and relationships with others. I understand that you are attempting to find solidarity with those who struggle, and I often do the same, but I always try to gee them up and progress past their current position which is causing them problems. I also give them advice, both practical and impractical, in order that they may successfully navigate the areas with which they struggle. This is why I cannot really embrace your theory fully, even though it makes sense, as it allows people to believe that their future success is beyond their control because they "don't receive any external validation", and it also downplays the tenacity of those who have succeeded despite being in the same position as those who believe they haven't received external validation. I agree with this 100%
Author USMCHokie Posted August 12, 2012 Author Posted August 12, 2012 However, what I cannot empathize with is the unwillingness to progress, and the ease with which they seem comfortable to complain, or tell themselves that nothing will work, or even discourage others in the same situation by forecasting the same dooming fate they have bestowed upon themselves. Nowhere have I ever stated that we should not put in our own effort to progress and become better individuals. All my theory says is that people inherently must use external validation (and invalidation) to assess that progress. You use external feedback throughout your life to assess how well you are doing in a multitude of different areas besides dating. It does NOT address what you do with that external feedback, whether you take active steps towards improvement or sit in a puddle of your own sorrow. It's like the kid on the playground who gets picked last in dodgeball. He can self-sympathize and do nothing, and he'll continue to get picked last in dodgeball. Or he can get in better shape and learn how to throw a dodgeball. But how will he know he has gotten better at dodgeball? Getting picked first on the playground is certainly one way. Similarly in dating, let's say you're a guy who can't get a date. Based on that external invalidation, you decide you need to take steps to improve yourself. You get a haircut and some clean clothes...work out and improve your fitness...work on your approach to women. You did all of these things in response to external invalidation. Now you ask a woman out and she says yes. Congratulations, external validation has just shown you that you are on the right track. Keep it up! External validation is simply a metric used to assess your own personal progress. Some people improve just to get that rush of good feelings from being validated, and that's their perogative. Meanwhile, others do it to truly improve themselves. That's great, but how do you know you've actually improved? That's right, external validation. You might not be seeking it, but you damn well are using it, unless you live in a cave. It is true that to a large extent we respond to external feedback, but tying it to external validation is a loose concept to me... I find external feedback synonymous with external validation/invalidation: External validation = positive external feedback External invalidation = negative external feedback ...and one that allows an individual ,who doesn't necessarily receive as much as some others, to dwell in failure and never have belief in themselves to be worthy individuals and succeed in areas that require social participation and relationships with others. It might encourage this behavior of inaction, but my original intent has always been to rebuff those who think they are completely beyond external validation and to explain why the ones who don't get the attention feel the way they do. Those that have received validation through their life find it hard to understand what it's like to be an adult without having had that validation. The more fortunate ones tend to take things for granted and make assumptions of feelings based on their own experiences and perspective. I understand that you are attempting to find solidarity with those who struggle, and I often do the same, but I always try to gee them up and progress past their current position which is causing them problems. I also give them advice, both practical and impractical, in order that they may successfully navigate the areas with which they struggle. This is why I cannot really embrace your theory fully, even though it makes sense, as it allows people to believe that their future success is beyond their control because they "don't receive any external validation", and it also downplays the tenacity of those who have succeeded despite being in the same position as those who believe they haven't received external validation. It is not beyond their control at all. They just assume it so. The fortunate individuals have succeeded because of the effort they put in and received the external validation to prove it to themselves. Likewise, the less fortunate have to put in that same effort to succeed.
Badsingularity Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 I just think you need to get a little confidence. 1
Bristolius Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 I find external feedback synonymous with external validation/invalidation: External validation = positive external feedback External invalidation = negative external feedback How do you calculate the disapproval of a ridiculous idiot.
Author USMCHokie Posted August 12, 2012 Author Posted August 12, 2012 How do you calculate the disapproval of a ridiculous idiot. That would most likely fall into external invalidation, i.e., negative external feedback, since disapproval clearly has a negative connotation.
Bristolius Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 That would most likely fall into external invalidation, i.e., negative external feedback, since disapproval clearly has a negative connotation. You couldn't feel good about being judged negatively even when the criteria are stupid? Many of us are happy to be on the **** lists of certain people.
Author USMCHokie Posted August 12, 2012 Author Posted August 12, 2012 You couldn't feel good about being judged negatively even when the criteria are stupid? What you do to internally process the feedback is solely up to you. Some people have an established foundation of self-worth which makes it easy for them to give certain negative feedback a low value and toss it away as negligible; while others don't have that foundation and link their self-worth very closely to any and all external feedback, both positive and negative. In dating, you can either process a rejection as nothing more than that and move on, asking others out; or you can process it as a reason to improve yourself to be more desirable for the next woman; or you can process it as the end of the world and give up on dating altogether. It's totally up to you. 1
threebyfate Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 That would most likely fall into external invalidation, i.e., negative external feedback, since disapproval clearly has a negative connotation.So if no one gave you positive feedback and ten idiots gave you negative feedback, this would mean that you would use the feedback of the ten idiots to define self?
Author USMCHokie Posted August 12, 2012 Author Posted August 12, 2012 So if no one gave you positive feedback and ten idiots gave you negative feedback, this would mean that you would use the feedback of the ten idiots to define self? How old am I in this scenario?
threebyfate Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 How old am I in this scenario?No idea how old you are right now.
Author USMCHokie Posted August 12, 2012 Author Posted August 12, 2012 No idea how old you are right now. Ok. I'm 28 right now. At this stage of my life, my internal processes are pretty well established, so receiving negative feedback from 10 idiots would be assessed by the following. I'd assess the credibility of each idiot and determine the relative worth of his feedback. If that idiot's credibility reaches a certain threshold, I'd evaluate the feedback itself, based on my own personal experience and the reasoning of said feedback, and then assess it's worth to me. If I feel it's worthwhile enough, I'll store it. If not, I'll dump what I feel should be dumped and keep what is worth storing. Now if I were a 12 year old kid in school, I doubt I'd have the capacity to go through such a process. That's why you have kids who think their sh*t don't stink and you have kids who are f*cked up. They are significantly more impressionable and moldable by external feedback.
threebyfate Posted August 12, 2012 Posted August 12, 2012 Ok. I'm 28 right now. At this stage of my life, my internal processes are pretty well established, so receiving negative feedback from 10 idiots would be assessed by the following. I'd assess the credibility of each idiot and determine the relative worth of his feedback. If that idiot's credibility reaches a certain threshold, I'd evaluate the feedback itself, based on my own personal experience and the reasoning of said feedback, and then assess it's worth to me. If I feel it's worthwhile enough, I'll store it. If not, I'll dump what I feel should be dumped and keep what is worth storing. Now if I were a 12 year old kid in school, I doubt I'd have the capacity to go through such a process. That's why you have kids who think their sh*t don't stink and you have kids who are f*cked up. They are significantly more impressionable and moldable by external feedback.Hokie, reread what you just wrote. It's incredibly significant to your psyche.
Author USMCHokie Posted August 12, 2012 Author Posted August 12, 2012 You just hate to acknowledge that YOU are one of the reasons you have trouble with dating Eh, I have a ladyfriend. I just find the discussion of this topic particularly interesting.
mickleb Posted August 13, 2012 Posted August 13, 2012 I find external feedback synonymous with external validation/invalidation: External validation = positive external feedback External invalidation = negative external feedback So internal validation = internal feedback (i.e. confidence) and internal invalidation = negative internal feedback (i.e. lack of confidence)? Some people have an established foundation of self-worth which makes it easy for them to give certain negative feedback a low value and toss it away as negligible; while others don't have that foundation and link their self-worth very closely to any and all external feedback, both positive and negative. See, the established foundation of self-worth you mention here is what I call 'confidence'. So, to me, this reads as those with confidence toss away negative feedback easily. Isn't this why it's suggested we gain confidence before attempting to be successful at dating? 'Establishing a foundation of self-worth', as you call it, is NOT dependent on external feedback, it's dependent on internal feedback. Are we back at square one, or have I still missed something?
Author USMCHokie Posted August 13, 2012 Author Posted August 13, 2012 So internal validation = internal feedback (i.e. confidence) and internal invalidation = negative internal feedback (i.e. lack of confidence)? No. Internal validation = the internal processing of external feedback to achieve a positive assessment of oneself. Internal invalidation = the internal processing of external feedback to achieve a negative assessment of oneself. See, the established foundation of self-worth you mention here is what I call 'confidence'. So, to me, this reads as those with confidence toss away negative feedback easily. Isn't this why it's suggested we gain confidence before attempting to be successful at dating? 'Establishing a foundation of self-worth', as you call it, is NOT dependent on external feedback, it's dependent on internal feedback. Are we back at square one, or have I still missed something? No, it's still dependent on external feedback. You can't process information in a vacuum; that is, you can't establish a baseline of confidence from nothing. If you lock a baby alone in a cave with food/water for 18 years, how confident will he be when he is released? I'm of the belief that true confidence in any field is gained only when we've experienced externally verified success in that field. Another loosely related example: martial arts. If you take one student who studies a martial art on his own from books and videos and take another student who studies a martial art at a dojo under the tutelege of an instructor, who is likely to become the better student? Who will be more genuinely confident in his abilities?
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