Choices.

[LFH]

On the infidelity forum a response given was "maybe you are one of the ones who's life won't get better if you stay with you spouse. Some marriages are like that. Some people aren't able to reconcile, and even if they say in their marriage, things won't be any better...

From everything you have written, it sounds like you need to start living your life for yourself and start doing what's right for you. You've done your best to give other happiness, now what about you? After all these years, don't you deserve some peace of mind?"

(I hope she doesn't mind that I took that out of the thread it was on to start mine here)

 

I think that is wonderful and amazing and beautiful advice.

I wish more people lived that, because no matter what side you are on...it's so true.

 

This is the reason some people end up HAVING affairs. This is the AFTERMATH of some affairs. If you aren't happy, if you hate your choices, you need to do something to change it. It's the crux of life.

 

Living your life for someone else, focusing everything on someone else is never going to leave you feeling satisfied or with a sense of self worth or happiness. If you are in an affair and feel like you are wasting your life waiting for them, it isn't worth it. If you are trying to reconcile, and you hate every minute of it and secretly wish you could smother them in their sleep, and it's not getting better... then it's not worth it, no matter what the pay off is. If you are married and you don't want to be there, then make a change. Why is this so hard for so many people to understand?

Life needs to be what you make it. If you aren't happy with your choices, you aren't making the right choices. Life is short.

 

Someone said on a different thread yesterday "This is your life, how are you going to live these years while you are waiting..." and I think this is the most important question you could be asked. It's the question every one of us should ask ourselves every day no matter what our relationship status is, who we are involved with, what choices we have made.

 

What do I do to make my life happy, meaningful and worthwhile? Am I doing it? If I'm not, why not. When am I going to start? If this was all there was is it enough? Am I happy with the life I've had and am I pleased with what I've accomplished, the things I've done. If tomorrow there were no more choices, of course you'd be sad that life was ending but would you REGRET or feel like you'd wasted your time?

If you do, then maybe up until now you weren't asking yourself the right questions.

 

In the end, that's what's important, right?

 

I've been asked a lot why I am happy and content in my EMA and why I do it. These are the reasons that I am involved with my MM. Because being with him makes me happier than living my life without him. I do think he could be living a happier life, but those are his choices to make and I can't force him to live his life differently, the only choices I own are the ones I make. I'm comfortable with what I've chosen.

 

Just something to think about and discuss.

What choices have you made in your relationships, your affairs, or even your marraige if any of the BS's would like to participate, and are you happy with them? And if not.. why not?

This would be a great thread to get some responses from the WS's as well.

[TaraMaiden]

It's all very well making choices to ensure your own happiness, long-term contentment and peace of mind - but it's important to remember that our choices - like ripples in a pond - resonate and affect others.

 

The whole point of choice it to make a good one.

The whole point of mindful, skilful choice - is to make a good one that creates as little collateral damage as possible.

 

'Choosing' either makes us compassionate - or selfish.

 

Our love for life, for ourself and for others, is only compassionate, if we balance it out with the essential quality of Wisdom.

[mercy]

It's all very well making choices to ensure your own happiness, long-term contentment and peace of mind - but it's important to remember that our choices - like ripples in a pond - resonate and affect others.

 

The whole point of choice it to make a good one.

The whole point of mindful, skilful choice - is to make a good one that creates as little collateral damage as possible.

 

'Choosing' either makes us compassionate - or selfish.

 

Our love for life, for ourself and for others, is only compassionate, if we balance it out with the essential quality of Wisdom.

 

OMG, my Sufi teacher posts on LS!

 

This is exactly what he spoke to me about yesterday. I mean verbatim!

 

Years ago I made the wrong choices, said the wrong things, it rippled affected like you wouldn't believe. I think sometimes (believe) that had I not made the choices I had h wouldn't have made the choices he made. The ripple effect is devastating to live with.

 

Then we both had to live with the choices the other had made. Such a sad time.

[LFH]

Tara, far as my choices being selfish, I never said they weren't. I said at the end of the day, you have to be willing to live with your choices. That means you have to LOOK at your choices.

 

If you read my post and don't just jump on the "Omg a happy cheater, lets bash her!" bandwagon, the underlying theme is that for most people, the choices I've made won't be the right ones. I think people that aren't happy in their marriage shoudn't stay. I don't think people should seek out affairs, because frankly, they're too damn messy...

 

But if you do... then you live with the consequences. You own your choice.

Make sure it's the one you want to be living with. I don't think people should settle. I think people should stop living for everyone else at the expense of themselves. That's my opinion.

Edited August 7, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Owl]

Interesting thread. I like the idea.

 

It raises a question in my own mind though...are we talking about "choices"...or are we talking about "compromises"?

 

We always need to learn to compromise in any relationship...indeed, in any interaction with another human being.

 

The real difficulty that comes in is "how MUCH do we compromise", and "what is the point where I'm compromising too much?".

 

I compromise daily in my interactions with my wife. She does the same with me. The arguments or hurt feelings can tend to come in when one or the other of us feels that we're compromising too much.

 

How much is too much? How much is too little?

 

Is there a difference between a compromise and a choice?

 

Hopefully this is in line with what you intended with this thread...no intent at all to T/J, and apologies if it is.

[LFH]

Interesting thread. I like the idea.

 

It raises a question in my own mind though...are we talking about "choices"...or are we talking about "compromises"?

 

We always need to learn to compromise in any relationship...indeed, in any interaction with another human being.

 

The real difficulty that comes in is "how MUCH do we compromise", and "what is the point where I'm compromising too much?".

 

I compromise daily in my interactions with my wife. She does the same with me. The arguments or hurt feelings can tend to come in when one or the other of us feels that we're compromising too much.

 

How much is too much? How much is too little?

 

Is there a difference between a compromise and a choice?

 

Hopefully this is in line with what you intended with this thread...no intent at all to T/J, and apologies if it is.

 

This is exactly what i had in mind with the thread... because I think there IS a difference between making a choice and making a compromise.

 

I agree that all relationships involve compromise, but is it a compromise if you are filled with pain and resentment over it? No, then living with that becomes a choice.

 

I think the line between compromise and choice is going to be different with every relationship. To keep things from getting too muddy I'll use a non-affair analogy here.

I might compromise on something in my relationship with my mom, well.. because she's my mom, but in a relationship with a friend, I'd make the choice to not compromise on the same thing, because if it was anyone but my mom I'd not tolerate it. That becomes a choice. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but hopefully it's clear.

 

The same can be said for all relationships, love affairs, marriages, parent/child, sibling and professional relationships. We can't have it our way all the time, but the big picture should always be something we are happy to live with.

[durentu]

love is only for the brave. The weak cannot love, the coward cannot love.

 

In so many cases, trouble follows where the couple has no idea what love is. So, they generally think it's what the movies show or a strong twitch in the groin, or an intense sense of pity. All of these are not love at all.

 

And then, people suffer trying to keep their non-definition of love alive.

 

Love is the mutual admiration and celebration of character. How does one develop and invest in themselves in life?

 

What is sexiness? confidence. Where does that confidence come from? Strong character.

 

Where does love come from? strength. Where does that strength come from? By investing and shaping ourselves in our own image.

 

Honestly, can one love a whiner? or does love come more easily for someone who can solve their own problems and make plans for the future? To build a life together?

[Summer Breeze]

What I feel may be settling someone else may feel is compromising.

 

I think you're right LFH. We need to look at our choices with some mixture of compassion and selfishness (Tara Maiden's wording and I love it). We need to be comfortable with the decisions and choices we make.

 

Interesting thread.

[durentu]

I should also say that many people believe that love is compromise. This is not strictly true.

 

Some people think that love is a compromise of one's own principles. IT IS NOT. One should NEVER compromise one's own principles, especially in matters of love. You can compromise in decision or the action or consequences, but not on one's own principles.

 

To compromise one's principles is to become a slave. Thus, so many people become 'slaves to love'. This suffering is completely unnecessary.

[woinlove]

Tara, far as my choices being selfish, I never said they weren't. I said at the end of the day, you have to be willing to live with your choices. That means you have to LOOK at your choices.

 

If you read my post and don't just jump on the "Omg a happy cheater, lets bash her!" bandwagon, the underlying theme is that for most people, the choices I've made won't be the right ones. I think people that aren't happy in their marriage shoudn't stay. I don't think people should seek out affairs, because frankly, they're too damn messy...

 

But if you do... then you live with the consequences. You own your choice.

Make sure it's the one you want to be living with. I don't think people should settle. I think people should stop living for everyone else at the expense of themselves. That's my opinion.

 

I don't see how being in an A is not settling if you don't think people should seek out affairs because you think they are too messy.

 

I do agree with the premise that people should make choices that make them happy. For me that ties into what Tara said, because I've learned part of what I need to be happy is to feel that I am a positive connection in other people's lives and, in particular, that I am not a harmful connection.

 

I am happily married and I have no problem encouraging others to be open to finding someone special (and available!) to openly share your life with. I think there is tremendous joy in a long and happy marriage and I'd encourage anyone who is interested to strive for that too. So, I don't understand you saying you are happy in an A, but don't think others should seek out affairs. Shouldn't others be happy like you too? Or is there something special about you? Or perhaps, you haven't found true happiness, but just okay for now and think others should find something better?

Edited August 7, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[mercy]

What I feel may be settling someone else may feel is compromising.

 

I think you're right LFH. We need to look at our choices with some mixture of compassion and selfishness (Tara Maiden's wording and I love it). We need to be comfortable with the decisions and choices we make.

 

Interesting thread.

 

We need to remove the selfishness from our choices, no?

[jwi71]

 

Is there a difference between a compromise and a choice?

 

 

Compromise is a subset of choice but still a choice whereas a choice need not be compromise. From that I think that all compromise is choice - albeit a subset.

 

For example, in an A we have three possible outcomes (vastly oversimplified but I'm lazy)

 

1) Marriage to WS

2) An A with the WS

3) Not having WS

 

The choice is between 1-3. Compromise is the minimally acceptable choice.

Many OW/OM may choose 1 on their own volition but frequently compromise and accept option 2.

 

Therefore, all compromise is choice. There is no difference between the two - just one "degrees".

 

My .02

[UpwardForward]

The movie: "The Making Of An American Quilt" 1995, was wonderfully colorful and nice. Intertwining of generations of several women's lives and their choices.

 

IMO, serving and compromising within a M is where the fulfillment lies, and there is the blessing.

 

Probably it isn't until one gets to the other side of the A, that they realize the waste.

 

If the outsider still feels they were the rescuer, then this is not realistic.

[LFH]

I don't see how being in an A is not settling if you don't think people should seek out affairs because you think they are too messy.

 

I do agree with the premise that people should make choices that make them happy. For me that ties into what Tara said, because I've learned part of what I need to be happy is to feel that I am a positive connection in other people's lives and, in particular, that I am not a harmful connection.

 

I am happily married and I have no problem encouraging others to be open to finding someone special (and available!) to openly share your life with. I think there is tremendous joy in a long and happy marriage and I'd encourage anyone who is interested to strive for that too. So, I don't understand you saying you are happy in an A, but don't think others should seek out affairs. Shouldn't others be happy like you too? Or is there something special about you? Or perhaps, you haven't found true happiness, but just okay for now and think others should find something better?

You'd think I'd stop trying to explain things but I feel compelled to answer *sigh*

I am happy in MY affair, because of this I do not feel like I am settling, other people may or may not. IF they feel like they are settling and they are not happy with it, then they shouldn't do it. Trying to twist my words isn't going to change my stance. Are you a defense attorney? You're attempt to restructure what someone says would make you a good one!

We need to remove the selfishness from our choices, no?

Why? Why do people see selfishness as a bad thing? If you are ONLY selfish in all you do then I can see where that might be an issue,but the definition of selfishness is "Devoted to or caring for oneself." That's a positive quality.

 

Compromise is a subset of choice but still a choice whereas a choice need not be compromise. From that I think that all compromise is choice - albeit a subset.

 

For example, in an A we have three possible outcomes (vastly oversimplified but I'm lazy)

 

1) Marriage to WS

2) An A with the WS

3) Not having WS

 

The choice is between 1-3. Compromise is the minimally acceptable choice.

Many OW/OM may choose 1 on their own volition but frequently compromise and accept option 2.

 

Therefore, all compromise is choice. There is no difference between the two - just one "degrees".

 

My .02

I think you are trying to make things more complicated than needed.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing.

 

It's cool to be good with your choices. Here's the deal. If you make a good choice, you usually don't have to work hard defend it.

I don't have to defend them, I am cool with my choices. I just don't like when people try to twist my words to further their agendas.

The movie: "The Making Of An American Quilt" 1995, was wonderfully colorful and nice. Intertwining of generations of several women's lives and their choices.

 

IMO, serving and compromising within a M is where the fulfillment lies, and there is the blessing.

 

Probably it isn't until one gets to the other side of the A, that they realize the waste.

 

If the outsider still feels they were the rescuer, then this is not realistic.

Ah.. see, for you, your choice is that marriage is a prize.

It's not to everyone, so you won't understand my reasoning any more than I will understand yours.

 

The purpose of my post was simply to say to be happy. To be honest with yourself about your intents and purpose and be prepared to deal with whatever the consequences may be and to discuss why that's important.

[mercy]

 

Why? Why do people see selfishness as a bad thing? If you are ONLY selfish in all you do then I can see where that might be an issue,but the definition of selfishness is "Devoted to or caring for oneself." That's a positive quality.

 

 

 

It's how I was raised. In my experience any selfish choice I have made has had negative consequences for me and others.

 

My positive qualities come from me looking at my choices and asking myself how will this negatively affect others. When I remove self I open myself to love.

 

I told my h I didn't want to be married anymore (years ago), he did everything to change my mind, begged pleaded, cried. It was my choice after all. But it wasn't a divorce I wanted, it was change, something in me not him. Though it was him I lashed out at. Well, I got change all right. He chose to have an affair. I have to live with those choices. Selfish of me really.

Edited August 7, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[UpwardForward]

 

Ah.. see, for you, your choice is that marriage is a prize.

It's not to everyone, so you won't understand my reasoning any more than I will understand yours.

 

The purpose of my post was simply to say to be happy. To be honest with yourself about your intents and purpose and be prepared to deal with whatever the consequences may be and to discuss why that's important.

 

No. M should not be the 'prize'.

 

It is something that should be entered into very carefully. After that it is the work that is blessed in this sanctified union.

 

Probably it isn't until one is emotionally removed from a circumstance, that they are able to see it for what it was or wasn't - or more clearly.

 

Attaching oneself to one who isn't theirs for the taking, is not doing anyone a favor.

 

Happiness outside of righteousness can be a selfish false illusion.

[woinlove]

You'd think I'd stop trying to explain things but I feel compelled to answer *sigh*

I am happy in MY affair, because of this I do not feel like I am settling, other people may or may not. IF they feel like they are settling and they are not happy with it, then they shouldn't do it. Trying to twist my words isn't going to change my stance. Are you a defense attorney? You're attempt to restructure what someone says would make you a good one!

 

I don't have to defend them, I am cool with my choices. I just don't like when people try to twist my words to further their agendas.

 

I'm not trying to twist your words, I am trying to understand them, which is why I asked what you meant by this and how you reconcile it with being happy in an affair:

 

I don't think people should seek out affairs, because frankly, they're too damn messy...

 

Why shouldn't people who think similar to you seek out affairs in the hope of finding the happiness you found? I would not advice them to seek out affairs, because I don't like dishonesty and I don't believe affairs bring true happiness. But that is me. You say your A brings you happiness, so, in your opinion, why shouldn't others seek out affairs?

 

I'm in an open M and would not recommend an open M to most people, but I can list specific attributes and desires and if someone has those, then, yes, certainly, I would recommend that they look for a like-minded partner and consider an open M. For two people who love each other and want to share their lives together, who have good communication skills, value honesty, and who are polyamorous or simply do not want monogamy, then I would definitely recommend that they thoroughly discuss non-traditional styles of M, including open M, with each other before marrying. Why? Because I know an open M can bring happiness to some people, even if it is not for most people. It also aligns with my own values and principles, and I think it can be an authentic and rewarding lifestyle. I say all this knowing some people disagree strongly, and that is fine.

 

I wonder if you feel somewhat conflicted about happiness in affairs. Otherwise, why not recommend some people actively seek out affairs for possible happiness.

 

One important thing about choices, is being honest with ourselves about our choices. When statements appear contradictory, that can be a sign to look a bit closer and see if we really are being true to ourselves. Internal contradictions seem par for the course in many affairs and I think that limits the capacity for happiness.

[LFH]

I'm not trying to twist your words, I am trying to understand them, which is why I asked what you meant by this and how you reconcile it with being happy in an affair:

 

 

 

Why shouldn't people who think similar to you seek out affairs in the hope of finding the happiness you found? I would not advice them to seek out affairs, because I don't like dishonesty and I don't believe affairs bring true happiness. But that is me. You say your A brings you happiness, so, in your opinion, why shouldn't others seek out affairs?

 

I'm in an open M and would not recommend an open M to most people, but I can list specific attributes and desires and if someone has those, then, yes, certainly, I would recommend that they look for a like-minded partner and consider an open M. For two people who love each other and want to share their lives together, who have good communication skills, value honesty, and who are polyamorous or simply do not want monogamy, then I would definitely recommend that they thoroughly discuss non-traditional styles of M, including open M, with each other before marrying. Why? Because I know an open M can bring happiness to some people, even if it is not for most people. It also aligns with my own values and principles, and I think it can be an authentic and rewarding lifestyle. I say all this knowing some people disagree strongly, and that is fine.

 

I wonder if you feel somewhat conflicted about happiness in affairs. Otherwise, why not recommend some people actively seek out affairs for possible happiness.

 

One important thing about choices, is being honest with ourselves about our choices. When statements appear contradictory, that can be a sign to look a bit closer and see if we really are being true to ourselves. Internal contradictions seem par for the course in many affairs and I think that limits the capacity for happiness.

 

 

Nope.. I'm not conflicted. I just don't want other people to be.

 

I didn't pick a guy and say HEY! He's married, I'm so going to **** him and fall in love.

 

I happened to develop a friendship with someone, who was married, and it turned into more. I wouldn't have gone out of my way looking for it.

 

It happens that having him as a part of my life, makes my life better in every way than it was without him.

 

So that's my choice.

 

A happily ever fairy tale with 2.5 kids and a storybook wedding wasn't in my cards, I've known that for a long time, so not getting those with him isn't a compromise to me.

 

My choice is..

This is the man I want in my life.

He's married.

Do I still want him in my life. The answer is yes.

 

It's not rocket science.

 

Maybe I need a thread to talk about my relationship instead of the issues that go around it because it seems as if everyone has a ton of questions... and I can't make you understand them this way,

[woinlove]

Nope.. I'm not conflicted. I just don't want other people to be.

 

I didn't pick a guy and say HEY! He's married, I'm so going to **** him and fall in love.

 

I happened to develop a friendship with someone, who was married, and it turned into more. I wouldn't have gone out of my way looking for it.

 

It happens that having him as a part of my life, makes my life better in every way than it was without him.

 

So that's my choice.

 

A happily ever fairy tale with 2.5 kids and a storybook wedding wasn't in my cards, I've known that for a long time, so not getting those with him isn't a compromise to me.

 

My choice is..

This is the man I want in my life.

He's married.

Do I still want him in my life. The answer is yes.

 

It's not rocket science.

 

Maybe I need a thread to talk about my relationship instead of the issues that go around it because it seems as if everyone has a ton of questions... and I can't make you understand them this way,

 

The bolded sounds like a rather passive way to describe the decision of choosing to have a romantic R with a MM.

 

To me, it sounds something like:

 

I wasn't looking for this, I knew he was married, I didn't mean for it to happen, but then I found myself in love with him, now I'm happy, but don't anyone else try this.

 

In talking about choices, I think a lot of insight might be gained by trying to go back in time, to when you noticed an attraction or interest, thought of him being married, and decided to go with it. To say it just happened and you weren't looking for it does not sound like owning one's choices, which is the theme of this thread. I understand you are now choosing to stay in the A, but you also made a decision to start an A, and that is where the real life lessons start. If you think these things just happen to you, you could find yourself in affair after affair after affair.... which would not seem to jive with your advice to others of not seeking out an affair.

[TaraMaiden]

.....

Is everyone REALLY happy with their choices?

 

You make the most skilful choices you can, with the options you have at the time. As is said elsewhere - Choice means change. It means either adhering to the familiar, or going down 'the road less travelled'....

 

So many times I have heard it said "Hindsight is 20/20 vision"... easy, after the event, to see whether the choice made was the most skilful one.

 

and note - most skilful doesn't necessarily entail doing what you want, purely because you want to.....

[Summer Breeze]

It is my belief that our choices in life, should not be selfish and self serving nor should those choices inflict pain on someone else. We should pursue our own personal happiness, nothing wrong with that but true peace and happiness does not come from participating in lies either directly or indirectly.

 

 

In an affair situation, some AP refuse/deny any responsibility for someone's else pain which further illustrates selfishness and disregard for others which probably translates to all facets of their life.

 

When my xH cheated on me I never sat there and said, darn her. She's hurt me. What I said was all to him and it was far more colorful. She owed me nothing. He owed me everything. Every decision I made when I had the choice to stay or go was made because of what he did, not what she did. As an OW I never lied to her and I never did anything that covered up our involvement. He did. I didn't. I don't hold any responsibility for his actions--he does. I fell in love with someone and I made the choice to be involved but I also made some pretty big demands and gave him his choice whether to go forward or not.

 

I own my choice/change to walk away from a cheating H and I own my choice/change to involve myself with someone who was M. I was never involved in an A before and highly doubt I will be again. Being involved with him was a very significant part of my life but it doesn't come close to defining me in the way you've noted.

[Summer Breeze]

I'm sharing my experience in life with other people who either are or have gone through it, and also people who may have questions as to what goes on in an A.

 

H just carried on an A and lied to me, our child, his children from a previous M, and his parents and siblings. He broke vows he made to God and promises he made to me. He lied every second of our lives for just shy of a year and then acted like a 5 year old and tried to lie more when he got caught. I hardly think he is/was in a position to take the moral high ground.

Edited August 7, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Response to deleted post

[William]

Active moderation is going on. Stuff will change or disappear. The alternative is closing the thread for moderator review, which is probably what I should have done. Apologies for that. Carry on.

[Summer Breeze]

maybe it comes down to being able to live with your choice without having to rationalize, justify or explain it to anyone else, especially yourself.

 

I stayed with my husband after his affair because it's what I wanted to to do. Simple as that. Of course, there's a hundred reason that made up that choice, but at the end of the day, I don't feel that it requires any rationalization, justification or explanation.

 

And that is exactly it. We all makes choices as best we can. We have to take in so many variables it's impossible to explain them to anyone else. When you add the heart to the mix it makes it that much worse. Put the gut in for good measure and it's worse again.

 

We make the best choices we can and hopefully we make the right ones most of the times.

[UpwardForward]

maybe it comes down to being able to live with your choice without having to rationalize, justify or explain it to anyone else, especially yourself.

 

I stayed with my husband after his affair because it's what I wanted to to do. Simple as that. Of course, there's a hundred reason that made up that choice, but at the end of the day, I don't feel that it requires any rationalization, justification or explanation.

 

IMO remaining within the already sanctified M unit ('for better or for worse'), is not the same as entering someone else's M.