Trying But Hurting

[belkin2]

I have been with my wife 10 years, married close to 8. We have 2 children, 5 and 4. She has been a stay at home Mom since our first was born.

 

So much to write here...I'll try to stick to relevant points, but it could get long.

 

Like most relationships our dating phase was great. Both had jobs and houses and those responsibilities, but had plenty of time to focus on us. Enjoyed a lot of things together and kicked of a pretty good sex life. From the start she was always a bit timid as she didn't have as much 'experience' as me. I think that made her assume I was into or wanted more kinky type stuff, but that wasn't true. I was quite satisfied with our sex life in terms of what was going on and the frequency.

Sometime in the few months before we got married I recall feeling this drop off in the bedroom and I tried to address it. The foreplay and things with that were not happening. I got the response that it just wasn't her and she didn't know if she could satisfy me sexually and maybe I wasn't the right one for her. I dismissed that. Outside our sex life there is so much to love and admire about her...she was the only person to ever make me feel like I could be married. I figured sex always gets pushed aside by responsibilities when the honeymoon phase is over and wasn't about to call it off because of that.

I can recall never feeling fully satisfied for a long time. Sex most often felt obligatory on her part. I was almost always the one to seek and suggest it. She never climaxed. She wanted kids though and despite some of my own hangups about the subject I agreed.

Once our first was born things started to go down hill in our relationship more than I recognized at the time. We definitely were not communicating well and just went into a just take care of our child and home mode. We were not mean to each other outright and rarely really fought, but we were not connected emotionally and supporting each other. Both of us had different expectations and desires for what that phase of our life with a new born would be like and failed to meet each others ideas and worse..never talked about it.

Our kids are 18 months apart so things were happening fast and a lot became a blur with the sleep deprivation. It certainly wasn't all bad day to day as there was a lot of joy to share. But we didn't do much for our relationship as it should exist outside of kids and by being a stay at home Mom she lost a big part of her identity and struggled with it more than I knew or could help with. Things were changing and not for the better between us.

During this time I played in a band and was out doing late night gigs a few weekend nights a month. For a long time I was able to resist the temptations that came along with being in that environment. Not so much because I was happily married, but because I tried to pride myself on doing the right thing and taking the moral high ground. I eventually failed.

I am not the king of person that is really into sex without love and emotion. My affair did not last particularly long, but it got both physical and emotional for me and I actually started to think I could/should leave my marriage for this person. But I hated myself and came clean to my wife about what was happening. Through some long talks and individual reflection we decided it was worth the fight to work on our marriage and stay together. I broke it off with the OW and prepared for the long road of healing all the wounds of the past and the biggest one I could ever deal to someone.

We did some things together in the coming months to help work on the relationship and learn tools to stay connected and be better partners. We even renewed our vows but I did not agree to counseling. One other important note here is that just before telling my wife of the affair she could sense something was wrong and approached me about it. The conversation lead me to saying I did not feel I was in love with her any more. It hit her pretty hard and one of the reactions and ways she tried to fight back to save us was through our sex life. She started opening up like she never had and strangely enough that continued even after I came clean. I went with it and didn't really question it too much.

After a few months that died down and we started having problems in our sex life again. There were some things happening with our kids that certainly pulled our attention away from focusing on us. And in being faced with those difficult issues and dilemmas I am now learning she feels I did not give her the support she needed. We both reacted and dealt with some of it in different ways and went through different phases of acceptance at different times. I tend to feel like despite some of that we worked well together to make decisions and act as responsible parents trying to do right for our children. Apparently she saw some failure there and that had an impact on our relationship.

This went on for a few years with highs and lows. I tried addressing our lack of intimacy (both before and after the affair) on a few occasions with conversations or writing letters. She tried to give me answers to why she wasn't into it and I tried to make changes, but it never made a difference. Aside from the goodbye/hello peck on the lips we did not touch very much and our sex life was strained...infrequent and not fulfilling.

At the end of 2011 **** was really hitting the fan with some things with our kids and she was struggling individually and finally decided to seek help. I was very supportive of that and I felt the only way for things to change with us were for her to start finding happiness again. Shortly into it we hit a low and after talking through some things I suggested maybe we should separate. This was actually the second time I had done so. I didn't really want to leave, but I was becoming so miserable and depressed in this cycle that I didn't see much of an option and I knew my resulting mood was unhealthy for her and our kids. I would start being quiet and withdrawn and she would walk on egg shells around me wondering what was going on and if she should talk to me or leave me alone. I would hurt from the lack of desire she had for me and for never feeling any passion and emotion through our physical life. She essentially demanded we go to counseling together and I agreed w/out a fight this time.

We have been at it for 6 months. Its been tough and sharing some of this stuff openly in a room with her and a therapist is hard, but sometimes does make me feel better for a bit. I have learned a lot about myself and about her and things she felt along the way that I never knew. Some minor tools and advise have helped make some situations better. Early on because I had suggested separating my wife definitely did not trust my commitment and felt I was ready to run when things got tough and was pissed that I was ready to give up. I have tried to be patient with the process and show that what I really want is a happy life with her and our family. I want to be committed and make her feel safe and for her to rely on me for emotional support. I haven't been perfect, but I feel my effort has been there and I have been quick to accept and admit when I fail and try to learn from it. I am making the changes to be more of what she wants.

Problem is, I am starting to feel I am the one making more effort towards us and no matter what I do its too late and not enough. Our sex life is not improved at all and in a recent open conversation about it she pretty much said she doesn't know if it ever will be.

When we first started doing MC she actually suggested we start trying to be more affectionate towards each other and a little flirty on casual encounters through out the day. I often work from home so passing her in parts of the house or having lunch together is frequent. We did that for a bit, but I soon felt like I had to be the one making that effort. Being the one to initiate and after a while of it not translating to our adult time got very frustrating and I stopped too.

I still experience these bouts of depression about all of this and although a few times I was able to stay upbeat and fight through I again now find myself withdrawn and feeling miserable and its showing at home again. I miss my wife so much and desire a fulfilling physical relationship with her. I want to kiss her with passion and feel it back. I want to be the husband she wants but with the way my heart aches I find it difficult.

The past few MC sessions we had some other things to talk about. We had started by going through a time line of our relationship including the affair and got to about the time things started to go bad after the short good phase that had followed the affair. Next week we are supposed to dig into this cycle which obviously includes our sex life. I have been open and honest with my wife so she shouldn't hear anything I haven't already said, but there are questions I have that I am hoping to get some clarity on.

In those months following my affair when our sex life was good she was really into it. I did not initiate it really. But then when I brought up how all of that had completely vanished she said she didn't really like doing things like oral and just did it for me. That hurt. Then at counseling when talking about the affair she pointed out that we were sexually active during that time of her learning about it and dealing with it and said she thought that was strange. I don't understand that one yet.

I know life changes from those early days when it was easy to crawl in bed with your new partner and explore. I don't expect crazy fireworks in the bedroom 4 days a week. We are not sexless, but it feels damn close.

I royally F'd up a few years ago and much of this now is a result of my inexcusable indiscretion. I know I should have looked for help for us instead of giving up and giving in. I know a lot of people look at that single act and will have no compassion for my feelings and think I probably deserve anything bad I get. But my wife and I decided to try and she wanted to learn to forgive for the sake of the vow she made. She is of the mindset that it did not define me and I take it as a blessing that she has stuck with me and feels that way. Splitting up would have been the easy way out.

But here we are and whether I deserve it or not I want to be happy. I am trying to do right by her now and while I never expect her to forget I do expect that if she truly says she wants to forgive that she is then really working towards that and that means looking at the here and now and actions going forward.

It is hard for me to have hope for that physical relationship when even before the affair it wasn't there. We are sexually incompatible and I really knew it before we got married, but was too ashamed to let that be a reason to call it off. I am starting to believe I should not be ashamed of these feelings. I am not just a 16yr old trying to get laid and sex is and should be a part of a healthy adult relationship. I am extremely attracted to my wife and often feel like I am living with the girl who broke up with me stealing my heart and saying lets be friends. We can raise our kids together and sleep next to each other, but nothing else.

I feel trapped and hopeless. The thought of splitting and what that would do to our kids absolutely crushes me. And like I said...my deepest desire is to have the relationship I want with this woman, not someone else. I may never achieve being the husband she has always wanted, but I continue to try. For what I desire...I don't know that she can. If she just isn't wired to desire anywhere near the same kind of sex life I don't know how you could ever ask someone to change that.

[BetrayedH]

I can't solve your overall problem but I can lend some insight on one thing you mentioned.

 

It is common for a couple to experience a period of "hysterical bonding" after one of the partners is exposed for an affair. I went thru it with my wayward wife and it was powerful stuff. It doesn't last forever and few people seem to understand why the heck it is happening to them. I'll make an attempt to explain as best as I understand it...

 

The betrayed spouse rarely falls out of being in love with their wayward spouse immediately. In the immediate shock of it, they do anything to cling to the marriage and to salvage what is left after they have been blindsided. The world is not what we thought and our best friend and partner in life (the one that is supposed to protect us at all costs) has lied, deceived and betrayed us in the worst possible way. Up is down and right is left. We just want it to stop. Whatever remains in the rubble of the nuke dropped on our marriage has to be put back together. We start picking up pieces. We can't count on our spouse to do it so we try to become superheroes that will save the disaster that has befallen the marriage. We decide that we had some responsibility for our failures in the marriage and those need to be fixed. As well, we feel amazing rejection from our spouse that has gone to someone else. What ensues is a betrayed spouse that opens up sexually to reclaim their spouse (and their ass).

 

On the wayward side, you're probably confused as hell because you think your betrayed spouse will probably never touch your ass again. But if they want sex, you are happy to oblige. And the last thing you would want to do is to say, no thanks. Out of guilt, obligation and probably a desire to fix the marriage, you also open up sexually. Again, this phase is hysterical bonding and it amazed me. By most indicators, it is no real indicator that the marriage will survive or die. Universally, what people are told is to enjoy it while it lasts.

 

But the other effects of your affair last for years and perhaps forever. As a matter of fact, it is common for the anger phase to come much later. As the betrayed spouse gains more personal confidence and feels "safe" that their spouse isn't going to immediately leave at the first sign of trouble, they begin to process their anger. They realize that regardless of the problems in the marriage, they had no part in your choice to cheat and quite frankly, you owed them to do otherwise (either fix the marriage or free them). I'm sure you also know about the mind movies your wife suffers and the triggers that remind her of your affair. She has also lost respect for you. Marriages and connecting sexually are already hard enough without these problems.

 

I'm sorry I don't have solutions for you but at least this may explain her brief and extreme interest in sex after your affair and why it waned thereafter. My wife and I did not reconcile so I really don't know how to do that part.

 

Good luck to you.

[belkin2]

BetrayedH, you make a lot of sense in your assessment of what happens in the aftermath. Thanks for that insight.

 

LadyGrey, thats a tough one to answer. I think...and she has in some conversations agreed that her sex drive just is and never was the same as mine. But specific to our relationship, even before the affair our sex life suffered and declined from where it started for different reasons I think even she is just now sorting out and starting to understand. Part of the confusion though is this is something I have tried to address numerous times over the years and I got different answers and different input as to how we could try to start changing it. Its left me confused to say the least, but I am starting to realize she wasn't able to process it all and understand it.

 

We had a good conversation last night. For her our physical relationship is rooted in being in a healthy emotional state of mind. If/when she sees me distance myself for any reason she loses any desire. Makes sense and I can respect that. That cycle has been going on for a long time. It becomes hard for me to stay feeling connected w/out intimacy and as I pull away it makes it even more impossible for her. I don't know how it started. I would like to think that back in the beginning I didn't just start to pull away from her while things were good, but in some ways (maybe different than the obvious distancing) I must have not been there in an emotional capacity she needed in order to feel desire for our physical relationship.

It just started to feel like she was pulling that stuff away for no reason and I never got a straight answer back then. The cycle started and a lot of damage was done. She told me last night that even before the affair she started to feel like I could and would leave her. I never mentioned or hinted anything like that, but apparently my actions and lack of support and emotional connection she desired said that w/out words. So she felt vulnerable and that caused a lot of the shut down.

 

Some tough pills to swallow. I want to change and I want her to feel safe with me and my commitment. I would like to earn her full respect back. Only time will tell.

[belkin2]

I have been reading a lot of posts on this forum the past few days. Different insight from men and woman on different subjects including experiences with many close parallels to mine has been very enlightening.

 

Not sure why there hasn't been much input to this thread. Perhaps my original post was too long for most to follow ?

I am not trolling and would like to be a part of this community. As I said its been helpful...

 

After our talk last week we tried to get things back on track with cuddling and small physical intimacy steps. I am a night person where she is more of a morning person. Many times if/when she initiates sex it will be in the morning before the kids are awake. Either Sat or Sun we were both awake at an early hour and after reaching to each other for some light contact I decided to caress her more and initiate sex. We had sex. Not sure I specifically pointed this out, but it is extremely rare for us to do anything but the missionary position. Sometimes when we do it in the morning like that it takes longer for me to climax. This time was no different and her upper back was aching from some exercise the previous days. I suggested spooning her which she agreed. She was obviously uncomfortable with this. I hate that sex is usually just about me climaxing. She never does and won't let me do other things to her before or after to get her there. I have asked about this in and out of the bedroom and she has always said it doesn't matter to her. I am starting to find this more disturbing than I ever did. I asked her maybe the next day about how she felt about the sex the day before and she said she was uncomfortable with it.

Through all of this I still find my wife incredibly attractive and have never lost my desire for her. Morning sex is never my first choice as its typically a roll over and do it kind of thing so oral hygiene is an issue forcing us to not kiss. I hate that, but think she may prefer it to be this way so the pressure of making out is not there. When we had talked last week and did start to fool around just a bit I tried to get her to open mouth kiss a little and it turned sour. She stated a lot of her emotional hang ups and issues with me have prevented her from wanting to really make out with me for a long time. So anyway...the morning sex thing...I generally role with it as it may be the only sex going on for a few weeks span.

When we talked at home last week I stated that I was feeling very frustrated and also felt this awkward tension between us. After having family around for a few weeks I was hoping for some intimacy and sex, but how it is approached has become difficult and strained so I didn't initiate. When I said that, she said 'do something about it'. So thats why we did end up kissing a bit before things fizzled. Its also why I tried the next few days to do things a little different.

I was more upbeat and engaged in all the other facets of our life and home with her. We did stuff together as a family and had fun. I took the kids all day one day while she was out of town. Made dinner...continued making progress on some house projects we have going. And at night I tried to initiate things. I am feeling desperate for meaningful sex.

My wife tends to get tired at night and if she sits down on the couch and turns on the TV, thats it. Nothing else is getting done and we will likely not do anything but cuddle a little before she falls asleep. Knowing this one of the nights I asked if we could stay upstairs after we had gotten the kids down. She said no, not right now because she had some things to do. I wanted to try massaging her and progressing from there, but she didn't want to be in the bedroom. So instead of turning away I waited until she came to the living room after doing her things. We sat together and chatted a bit making nice contact, holding hands etc. After a bit I tried to kiss her neck a bit and there was absolutely no sign of any interest in what I was doing.

I stopped and pointed out the obvious and she said now I am trying too much and things need to go slow. So we stayed there for a while still making contact and after a bit she fell asleep. When we went to bed I ended up fuming with frustration and hurt and left after a while to sleep on the couch.

The next day I tried my hardest to pick myself up and carry on w/out showing any of this. When I first saw her I said good morning and touched her back as I passed her. I helped out with morning routine around the house. We had lunch 2gether and she could sense something and asked if I was annoyed with her. I told her I was not annoyed, but I was hurting and even though I don't want it to effect me its impossible to hide and act like nothing is wrong...doing my best though and I know I was not withdrawn as I normally get.

MC was that day. We really opened up to the therapist on what goes on with this cycle and I opened up how dissatisfied I am and have been with our sex life specifically and how it effects me and the cycle of frustration it causes both of us. One big take away for me was that she has some clarity on why our sex life started to wane in the first place. As that initial honeymoon phase died down and we started doing things together a little less and started to not have as much new things to talk about and share with each other she started to feel an emotional gap. In other words, her desire was fueled by all the conversation that comes so easily when you are learning and sharing your lives to that point. There was also a big difference between us that she conceded to that drove a big wedge. I am pretty shy, especially in large group settings full of people I don't know. She used to go out to company happy hours and her old friends get togethers, etc and really enjoyed that. I struggled to be comfortable in those settings. I would go, but it was obvious I wasn't comfortable. She felt that was something we should do together and after a while just stopped doing it and included herself more in the things I liked and gave that up. Resentment is there for that. I never her asked her to give that up, she just had an expectation of how it and I should be and when I didn't meet it she compromised w/out addressing it.

Our session was good overall. Our therapist actually said she sees a lot of progress. The fact that I tried talking to her last week instead of stewing on it...the fact I was finally able to talk about all of this and be rather blunt about things as needed...she sees it as a means to start breaking the cycle which is our goal. She said she is not in the business of saving marriages, but she is not giving up on this one because she sees so much good in it. She provided encouragement in pointing out how we are both there and trying now and how we appear to really care about each other in the way we treat each other and how we talk openly, listen to each other and process what is being said. She wants us to stay the course and continue being there for each other no matter how much it hurts or feels awkward right now. I am not allowed to sleep on the couch even if my skin is crawling laying next to her in bed

So I am trying my hardest to heed that advice. Its tough and I have many mixed emotions. I know this will take time, but given the history it is hard to find faith or hope that things can change to where we have a compatible sex life where we both are happy feeling it is enough and it is fulfilling.

I no longer feel ashamed about my sex drive and my desires for her. The hardest part is pushing them aside and staying positive. I am actually finding myself pretty pissed about some of it.

2 major things I want answers to and will seek next week in MC:

-We both realize and admit our relationship was strained before we had kids. I because of our sex life and I consciously chose to try to bury those feelings and was too ashamed to really stand up for them. She however was already starting to feel like she didn't trust me and respect me and that I was a risk to leave the relationship. How then does she decide its a good idea to proceed with having children? It was ok then of course to have sex almost daily so she could conceive. We both did recognize and talk about how it was somewhat of a chore as it took a few months of trying and thats just how it gets when the task is mainly focused on the goal of conception. I don't really resent the change/influx of sex based on that purpose, but I feel somewhat used in that she didn't care enough to address her negative feelings about us before going to that next phase of kids which we both knew would be difficult and is often straining on any relationship. Let alone I was still occasionally stating my issues with our sex life and nothing I was told really had anything to do with it.

-I understand that hysterical bonding thing now. However, it started when I had only told her I was not in love with her and there started to be some question if our marriage would continue or if we were going to separate. She wanted to fight to save the marriage and immediately turned to the one thing always lacking in the relationship and that I needed the most for our emotional connection. And I mean it came on strong. Every day. Breaking out sexy lingerie...setting up the mood in the bedroom with candles, etc. Flirting, touching throughout the day. Notes and texts to each other and a lot of loving gestures. How did she all of a sudden feel safe enough to do this? feels a bit manipulative although i doubt she was consciously doing that. Nevertheless I want to hear her perspective.

And it is clearer to me now how/why that phase ended. While it was happening we were talking a lot again. Often it was sex first then cuddle and talk about all the things we used to do and love about each other...rekindling the fire...then some more sex. It stopped when those conversations started to dry up again.

I'll never have an endless supply of meaningful intellectual conversation items. Even when things are only kinda decent between us we take time to talk with each other. I don't just listen and go on auto-bob. I hear her and respond and we converse. So I don't know what else I can do to keep her interested enough in our conversation/communication to have that as a positive factor instead of an inhibitor. Sometimes life is just life, my job is boring and not much beyond some small talk is going on and i don't think people generally talk about the same things over and over again.

BTW, I believe there is a major self image thing going on here on her part. I am sure at times my efforts on this diminished as I went through periods of withdrawing from the relationship, but in general over the course of our lives together I have always complimented her on her looks and told her how attractive I find her. In many ways in many settings...not just in sexually tension inducing environments. Simple notes...texts...mentions of it while I hug her from behind while she is in the kitchen. She never really wants to hear it. For a while she would be dismissive of it. Now she is trying to work on that and tries to at least say thanks and accept it. She doesn't like things being about her. I used to be a very romantic guy, but over time trying to be like that with her has become awkward. I assume its because she automatically feels I will expect sex as a result of the gesture.

Thanks to anyone who is hanging in there on these long posts

[LadyGrey]

Any sexual abuse in your wife's background?

 

What kind of childhood did she have? Dysfunctional family?

[giotto]

your story is very similar to mine, but with 4 kids and no affair. After 27 years together, I still don't have an answer. Funny when women tell you they love you but their action point to the opposite. No affection, no intimacy, no sex. Contemplating separation too, because I'm really really tired of all this s***.

[frozensprouts]

I can't begin to address her view of sex before you had an affair...except that perhaps she being honest with you when she says it doesn't matter to her in the same way it does to you...( a few women are like that...sex is nice in as much as it brings emotional closeness, but there's not more to it than that in the physical sense...has she ever mentioned this to her doctor? Perhaps there is a medical reason for this? I don't know)..it does sound as if, from what you say, sex has never been number one on her list of important things in life, and to be fair, she did let ou know this before you married her

 

Does she know what having sex with her means for you? that it's more than just the physical act, but the emotional connection as well? While she may never get the pleasure from sex that you do, perhaps if she understands that to you, sex with her is a way of bonding with her and showing her how much you love and care for her ( one caveat...if you tell her that, you'd better be darned ready to show it in other ways too ...otherwise your words may ring kind of hollow)

 

As for how she views sex with you after her affair...while I can't speak to how she feels personally, I can tell you how I felt after my husband cheated, and maybe it will apply to your wife as well...

 

After he cheated, we did the whole "hysterical bonding " thing too ( not only because we were reconciling, but also because he was leaving for six months to a year less than two months later, so that also led to some hysterical bonding). But after that slowed own, as it always seems to for people, I was left with the idea that he'd had sex with someone else, that the thing that i thought was his way of expressing love he'd done with someone else. ( I know it may sound silly, but for me, sex isn't just something you do with anyone...there has to be something there- from what i understand it's different for guys...sex without a deep emotional attachment is easier for them- but maybe I'm wrong about that). It hurt a lot to think about that- and there's no switch to just turn those thoughts off, and there wasn't the trust there had been before. All in all, for a long time it felt kind of "hollow" ( for lack of a better term). Over time, that has changed. I've learned to trust him again and things are a lot better. But that;s the way it is for us, and I don't know how your wife feels...

 

If she really is the type who views sex as something she can "physically" do without ( like I said, some women are like that) then perhaps try to work on the emotional side of it...work on it being a way to create and maintain an emotional connection (but not the only way to do so) ...you may have to accept that she may never want it as much as you physically, but if you two can work on building the emotional side of it, she may begin to want it more just for the emotional connection it provides. A big thing with that will be her understanding that the sex you had during your affair was not the same as what you want to have with her ( hope i made sense there...if not, I apologize).

 

Like I said, these are just my thoughts, and I could be way way off...but hopefully there was something in there that was helpful to you...

 

It sound like you and your wife really do love and care for each other...hold on to that and work at the rest...I wish you good luck an a long and happy life together

[belkin2]

Any sexual abuse in your wife's background?

 

What kind of childhood did she have? Dysfunctional family?

 

No sexual abuse. Her parents are divorced and her Father was very distant, cold and pretty much not around and part of her life.

Her grandparents and aunt/uncle were involved in her upbringing a lot and she claims she was always getting pressure about teenage sex and get pregnant...basically scared into staying away from it.

[belkin2]

Have you ever asked your wife what she is thinking about or feeling during the act of having sex with you? What is going through her head? It's quite unusual for a person to never be concerned with their own gratification during sex. "It doesn't matter to her" doesn't ring as truthful. There is something else going on with her that she isn't telling you.

 

Also, as to morning oral hygeine--most people handle this particular problem by getting up, going to the bathroom, brushing their teeth and perhaps using a little mouthwash, then hopping back into bed and getting on with things. There's no "rule" saying you can't do that, you know.

 

True, but my wife is very much into things just rolling once initiated. If she were to start touching me and sending the signal for sex in the morning it would not go well if I said stop for 30 seconds so we can go get some mouth wash. Kills the mood/moment for her. I have tried

[belkin2]

I can't begin to address her view of sex before you had an affair...except that perhaps she being honest with you when she says it doesn't matter to her in the same way it does to you...( a few women are like that...sex is nice in as much as it brings emotional closeness, but there's not more to it than that in the physical sense...has she ever mentioned this to her doctor? Perhaps there is a medical reason for this? I don't know)..it does sound as if, from what you say, sex has never been number one on her list of important things in life, and to be fair, she did let ou know this before you married her

 

Does she know what having sex with her means for you? that it's more than just the physical act, but the emotional connection as well? While she may never get the pleasure from sex that you do, perhaps if she understands that to you, sex with her is a way of bonding with her and showing her how much you love and care for her ( one caveat...if you tell her that, you'd better be darned ready to show it in other ways too ...otherwise your words may ring kind of hollow)

 

As for how she views sex with you after her affair...while I can't speak to how she feels personally, I can tell you how I felt after my husband cheated, and maybe it will apply to your wife as well...

 

After he cheated, we did the whole "hysterical bonding " thing too ( not only because we were reconciling, but also because he was leaving for six months to a year less than two months later, so that also led to some hysterical bonding). But after that slowed own, as it always seems to for people, I was left with the idea that he'd had sex with someone else, that the thing that i thought was his way of expressing love he'd done with someone else. ( I know it may sound silly, but for me, sex isn't just something you do with anyone...there has to be something there- from what i understand it's different for guys...sex without a deep emotional attachment is easier for them- but maybe I'm wrong about that). It hurt a lot to think about that- and there's no switch to just turn those thoughts off, and there wasn't the trust there had been before. All in all, for a long time it felt kind of "hollow" ( for lack of a better term). Over time, that has changed. I've learned to trust him again and things are a lot better. But that;s the way it is for us, and I don't know how your wife feels...

 

If she really is the type who views sex as something she can "physically" do without ( like I said, some women are like that) then perhaps try to work on the emotional side of it...work on it being a way to create and maintain an emotional connection (but not the only way to do so) ...you may have to accept that she may never want it as much as you physically, but if you two can work on building the emotional side of it, she may begin to want it more just for the emotional connection it provides. A big thing with that will be her understanding that the sex you had during your affair was not the same as what you want to have with her ( hope i made sense there...if not, I apologize).

 

Like I said, these are just my thoughts, and I could be way way off...but hopefully there was something in there that was helpful to you...

 

It sound like you and your wife really do love and care for each other...hold on to that and work at the rest...I wish you good luck an a long and happy life together

 

 

A lot of great input...thank you! I think she understands what it means to me. I have talked about it both privately and in our MC. But we are going to be working on really defining what intimacy means to both of us more in MC. I am prepared to show her in every way I can in and out of the bedroom. We have made some changes we have both contributed to.

[frozensprouts]

A lot of great input...thank you! I think she understands what it means to me. I have talked about it both privately and in our MC. But we are going to be working on really defining what intimacy means to both of us more in MC. I am prepared to show her in every way I can in and out of the bedroom. We have made some changes we have both contributed to.

 

 

that's good...it sounds like you are both engaged in the process of making your marriage better...you are both trying, and that says a lot about the love and commitment you have for each other

[the ill-made knight]

No sexual abuse. Her parents are divorced and her Father was very distant, cold and pretty much not around and part of her life.

Her grandparents and aunt/uncle were involved in her upbringing a lot and she claims she was always getting pressure about teenage sex and get pregnant...basically scared into staying away from it.

 

This and some other things you have said lead me to believe that your wife just isn't comfortable with her own sexuality. I think maybe that's the main problem in your sex life.

[belkin2]

This and some other things you have said lead me to believe that your wife just isn't comfortable with her own sexuality. I think maybe that's the main problem in your sex life.

 

Yes, I completely agree with this. It is something I plan to bring up in MC. I guess then the question will become whether or not she has any interest in trying to improve that comfort level or not.

There are many factors at play here, but this is definitely one of them.

[belkin2]

Thought I would provide an update here.

End of last week we had gotten things back on a positive path. Nothing has really changed other than getting some more things out on the table and some good dialogue. Had a pretty heavy conversation Thurs night and we were able to turn towards each other at the end of it. She suggested then that we plan on spending Fri night together talking about other matters in our lives and leave the heavy stuff out and also cuddle and whatever and see where it goes.

Friday we did just that. Going to bed she was tired and even though I was not expecting anything she came out and said I know this is tough to not be progressing towards love making, but I want it to be right...maybe in the morning we can. I was cool with that.

 

Sat morning at some point before the kids were up she initiated. No changes there to mention, but that said I was very much happy to be with my wife.

I was gone Sat over night to Sun. Sun night we spent cuddling watching Olympics...all was well.

 

Monday night I went and sat on our bed after we got the kids down to just enjoy a break and some peace for a minute. We hadn't set any plan as to what either of us were doing that night, but she came in and we just started talking about stuff and it was all good. I tried to keep some casual contact, but never made it sexual or anything. I kind of felt like she wasn't reciprocating that much, but she was talkative and all else seemed well so I didn't read too much into it. After about an hour she had mentioned needing a drink and to take care of some laundry so I suggested we head downstairs. I helped with the laundry and when we were done she stayed sitting alone in a chair I couldn't really be with her so I asked if she wanted to sit or lay together. Her reaction was kind of an oh yeah I was just sitting here not really thinking anything about wanting to or not wanting to. So we laid together and she was out by 9:30.

Next morning she had gotten up somewhere in the 5am hour to use the bathroom. She never is able to go back to sleep when that happens (hence why she sometimes initiates morning sex then). After things had been going well for a few days I thought I would reach to her to initiate. She stopped my hand from rubbing her side. Ok, message received. No big deal...still in a patient go with the flow mental state at that time.

However, what i wanted to do different this time was once we were both up for the day I wanted to ask her why she said pushed me away just so we are on the same page...no pressure, no ill feelings for the rejection. When I could I asked her to talk a minute and I embraced her and asked in a non assuming easy going tone why she had done that. She played dumb at first and when I pinpointed how it went down she just said 'oh I was trying to go to sleep'.

I didn't make anything of it and smooched and went about business. Still not mad I just felt there was more to it and instead of guess and building my own theories that could turn negative and build resentment I decided to address it with the intention of simply asking if there was anything more going on and that I was open to her feelings and input and need that in order to support her...and its really what we are trying to do...be able to communicate openly about ANYTHING.

 

She had started doing some chores around the house and was in the bedroom when I approached her. I waited for her to be done and asked if she had a minute. I have no idea why but as I did I put a hand on her and I started to sit on the bed. She kind of snapped and her tone and expression was one of total annoyance and said 'what up?' I was shocked and was like 'whats with the attitude I just wanted to ask a quick question'. She mocked my body language and sitting down and said that it sent a signal to her that either I had something big to say or I was trying to get her to be intimate for a minute when she was starting to get on a roll and had a lot of stuff to do so it was a bad time. I said I didn't want to talk about it now after that and just said love you bye and gave her a hug and kiss and left for work.

 

I brought this up at MC that day. Her reasoning for this reaction was because she felt we had been going over board since the previous heavy discussion the week before with cuddle time and that led to getting behind other responsibilities which built up stress for her. And she felt I had followed her around too much getting in the way and not just dealing with whatever was on my mind the first time and being done.

 

I am pretty crushed by all of this. I have been very cognizant to not be overbearing with touching her or demanding (even constantly asking) for time together. I give her space in our home. Neither Sun or Mon did I even ask for that time so she had plenty of opportunity to address chores or whatever around the house. I would have had no issue helping either.

 

I was pissed at how she treated me and again felt like I can't trust anything she does as she was obviously just being with me Monday to appease me instead of doing what she wanted/needed to.

I expressed my frustration and confusion in MC and it was suggested that I continue to do what I want and follow my feelings and not worry about if she is going to be receptive as it is up to her to follow how she feels and communicate it appropriately.

Since Tues I have felt completely turned off and empty and don't even want to touch her. I have been more physically distant w/out distancing myself emotionally in terms of talking to her and my body language around her. It seems to be what she wants anyway and she even said today she would like to spend time together tonight (we hadn't Tues or Wed) maybe hanging out on the deck and she said she feels pretty good right now.

 

The set backs I have seen the past few months just spell it out for me. She wants a best friend type of relationship. Someone to share the fun family moments with and to enjoy common interests. SOmeone to support her, but w/out anything physical. It makes it so hard to stay positive and stick this out to see if there is any hope for any changes to come towards my side of the table of needs and desires for love in a relationship.

[BetrayedH]

Maybe try reading the book, His Needs, Her Needs by Dr. Harley or The Five Love Languages.

[the ill-made knight]

The set backs I have seen the past few months just spell it out for me. She wants a best friend type of relationship. Someone to share the fun family moments with and to enjoy common interests. SOmeone to support her, but w/out anything physical. It makes it so hard to stay positive and stick this out to see if there is any hope for any changes to come towards my side of the table of needs and desires for love in a relationship.

 

It's starting to sound a lot more like you and your wife are just incompatible on some basic physical level. I hope that this is something the two of you can work out through MC and I would advise you to try to stay positive, but you also need to be very honest with yourself about the situation.

[Marcy33309]

I'm sorry you're having such difficulty.

 

My opinion:

 

I believe that if one partner is not holding up their end of the partnership...then the partnership has no chance of surviving. And why should it? Why should a man have to live a sexless marriage? Touching, affection, foreplay - that stuff is necessary for good mental health and a good life together.

 

Unless there is some physical reason that a wife can't please her man sexually (and even then they should figure something out) and she refuses him the closeness and the release of good sex...then she is breaking the marriage contract.

 

I don't necessarily agree with cheating but I do believe that some women make it impossible for their husbands to be happy with the relationship and of course...same thing goes for some men.

 

Here's the scenario as I see it:

1. Your marriage is boring, sexless (mostly) and overall unfulfilling.

2. Your wife is not holding up her end of the marriage...she's changed from the person you fell in love with.

3. You are desperate for attention and sex and affection.

4. You screw up and you cheat.

5. Your wife finds out you're falling out of love or about the affair and her switch flips back to the ON position and she's suddenly sexual and affectionate again.

6. Then she flips the switch back off...goes back to being who she really is and suddenly you're a big cheater and you have to kiss her ass forever?

 

No...she flipped that switch on because she knows exactly what she did to drive you away. She turned it back on to show you what you'll be missing if you leave her...and then she reverted right back to failing to keep her end of the marriage up and running.

 

That's a bunch of crap as far as I'm concerned.

 

How about the partner who is screwing up the marriage because he or she thinks marriage is a ticket to laziness has to beg for the fogiveness for awhile?

 

Cheating breaks the rules...but so does being sexless and selfish.

 

I'd never tell anyone what to do with their lives. But if I were going through this...for all this time...and trying as hard as you are...pfffff...I'd pull out.

Maybe not forever...but I'd certainly part ways for awhile.

 

I'd stop being a kiss-ass and live for my own happiness.

Being alone is scary...divorce is scary. It's expensive too. But I'll tell ya what...it beats living in a miserable marriage.

At least being free allows a person to find a partner that loves them AND wants them sexually.

 

You have my sympathy but with all this cuddling and counseling and letting her beat you up emotionally, you're losing my respect.

 

Stop paying for your sins of cheating and start taking back your life.

[belkin2]

I'm sorry you're having such difficulty.

 

My opinion:

 

I believe that if one partner is not holding up their end of the partnership...then the partnership has no chance of surviving. And why should it? Why should a man have to live a sexless marriage? Touching, affection, foreplay - that stuff is necessary for good mental health and a good life together.

 

Unless there is some physical reason that a wife can't please her man sexually (and even then they should figure something out) and she refuses him the closeness and the release of good sex...then she is breaking the marriage contract.

 

I don't necessarily agree with cheating but I do believe that some women make it impossible for their husbands to be happy with the relationship and of course...same thing goes for some men.

 

Here's the scenario as I see it:

1. Your marriage is boring, sexless (mostly) and overall unfulfilling.

2. Your wife is not holding up her end of the marriage...she's changed from the person you fell in love with.

3. You are desperate for attention and sex and affection.

4. You screw up and you cheat.

5. Your wife finds out you're falling out of love or about the affair and her switch flips back to the ON position and she's suddenly sexual and affectionate again.

6. Then she flips the switch back off...goes back to being who she really is and suddenly you're a big cheater and you have to kiss her ass forever?

 

No...she flipped that switch on because she knows exactly what she did to drive you away. She turned it back on to show you what you'll be missing if you leave her...and then she reverted right back to failing to keep her end of the marriage up and running.

 

That's a bunch of crap as far as I'm concerned.

 

How about the partner who is screwing up the marriage because he or she thinks marriage is a ticket to laziness has to beg for the fogiveness for awhile?

 

Cheating breaks the rules...but so does being sexless and selfish.

 

I'd never tell anyone what to do with their lives. But if I were going through this...for all this time...and trying as hard as you are...pfffff...I'd pull out.

Maybe not forever...but I'd certainly part ways for awhile.

 

I'd stop being a kiss-ass and live for my own happiness.

Being alone is scary...divorce is scary. It's expensive too. But I'll tell ya what...it beats living in a miserable marriage.

At least being free allows a person to find a partner that loves them AND wants them sexually.

 

You have my sympathy but with all this cuddling and counseling and letting her beat you up emotionally, you're losing my respect.

 

Stop paying for your sins of cheating and start taking back your life.

 

Some interesting perspective here. Thank you for the comments.

 

I will say that as much as I have seen much of this as black and white as depicted in much of what you say...it is more complex than that and I am only recently starting to truly understand and appreciate that. My wife and I have had an interesting relationship all these years in that we rarely ever have fought and for the most part on the surface have been 'nice' to each other. The problem is that there has been a lot of things ignored or brushed under the rug when we should have been facing the conflicts and dealing with them. We have both been guilty and I believe it is part of the reason she stayed when the affair happened although at that time she still didn't have a clear idea of why the sexual part of our relationship has been an issue over the years.

It has been with her therapy that she has been able to get some clarity to things, but that doesn't mean its a light switch to just turn it back on and everything is ok in the bedroom.

 

Last week when it hit the fan again and she lashed out at me and later in MC made comments about the cuddle/intimacy time taking over all else I was rather crushed. That night I told her I wanted space in the house and would not be spending time with her...not given a silent treatment, but doing my own thing and would appreciate respect for that. Over the next few days we were backed off from the cuddling and contact, but I did not distance myself as I typically had done in the past. I think it was maybe Thurs that she asked if we could spend time together talking and she stated she felt pretty good about things and was taking it day by day. Conversation was good that night and we shared with each other openly. Not too much about stuff going on with us.

 

In bed that night she started kissing me a bit. Now mind you...if I haven't clearly stated this...it has been a very long time since she really made out with me and did anything more than closed mouth kissing. While it didn't go beyond that she did have more feeling behind it. After a few minutes she commented how the evening was good and she felt comfortable with that but still wanted to take it slow and doesn't want to feel any pressure to go further. I told her I would follow her lead.

 

The next day she asked me to clarify that comment as to whether I meant just then or in general because she has always complained that things got to a point she had to be the one to initiate (rejection made me stop asking). I had decided that day that we should just take sex off the table completely and approach things like we are back in the dating phase as best we could under the current circumstances of our lives (ie kids and many more responsibilities). I feel like this is giving much more to her needs, but at the same time as much as I want to make love to my wife and it is the source of so much of my issues with the marriage...I am left feeling vulnerable to my feelings being kicked around and quite honestly I don't know how to do it any more and my confidence is shot which leads to awkwardness I hate feeling.

 

My thinking here is that the expectation and pressure of having to get to sex is not healthy. It needs to just happen. We need to rediscover and relearn how to do some of this stuff together. My hope is that we can work on it both physically and verbally and comfortably get to a place where it feels right and we both feel the desire and passion to really be there with and for each other. There are going to be some tough and uncomfortable discussions along the way. I want to learn how to touch my wife again and I am not willing to simply let it be what it has in terms of almost every type of foreplay and oral being off limits all the time. I need her to understand she needs to open her mind and think outside the box a bit. That doesn't mean I am going to force her to like or do something she just isn't into, but just saying no and not looking for solutions is no longer acceptable. For example the kissing...I know she doesn't like just sitting there french kissing for 2 minutes as she feels its dirty, but I have told her before that I like it in short bursts as we are kissing. She seemed to be ok with that, but it all stopped again and she has said she hasn't been comfortable doing that with me. And we have had conversations about oral before where she has said she would rather give than receive. Well she hasn't given in a long time...and as far as receiving I want her to really understand how much I enjoy it and how it helps to get her really going, etc. Part of her issue is she doesn't want to kiss me afterwards (although half the time she doesn't even want to do the kissing pecks once we are having intercourse). I want to be able to give sometimes so I am going to try to get her to first honestly answer if it feels good to her. If the answer is yes, but with some exceptions we need to work around those exceptions for ways it can happen some of the time. Maybe the kissing is off limits after that happens. Maybe we keep something next to the bed to get the scent off my face. Sorry to be kinda graphic here, but I am kinda done being reserved about this stuff and heck its a forum where no one knows me

 

I see the resolve she has to deal with some difficult issues with our kids where she has to put a lot of thought and energy and research into things. The first idea or attempt doesn't always work and she never gives up. This needs to translate into us and our love life.

 

I don't know what will change and if it will last, but I do know right now we are both trying to do things different and want to work things out. Progress in our sexuality is anything but fast so I have to renew my patience and resolve every day. I want this with her and there is a lot of history and a lot of great things in our lives we stand to lose. Its w/out a doubt worth the time and effort and we have only been doing MC for about 6 months. Our old ways of trying to deal with stuff got us no where so I have to give it honest time and effort before I throw in the towel.

 

The last few days didn't go as I would have liked, but again I am trying to be patient. We are going back to the start, but its not like it was back then where both had time and were interested/willing to be kissing and messing around EVERY night. We did a camp out with the kids in our yard Sat night and I asked if she wanted to lay on the hammock after they went to sleep. We did but we just cuddled and talked a little. She got tired pretty quick and we didn't do anything. Same on Sun night...I asked if she wanted to spend time together and after we did some massaging to each other she said something about laying on the couch and I told her I wanted to kiss and fool around. She said we should do it tomorrow cuz she was tired from not sleeping well outside on the camp out.

So we shall see what happens tonight. I would like more consistency really 'working' on this, but pushing it only sets us back.

Sorry for being long winded. Getting this all out does help so I appreciate those who read and/or comment!

Edited August 20, 2012 by belkin2

[Titanwolf]

You and your wife should seriously read this. Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity

[belkin2]

You and your wife should seriously read this. Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity

 

 

I read that page and I just don't see much that correlates to my situation.

[Titanwolf]

I read that page and I just don't see much that correlates to my situation.

 

It could explain the lack of intimacy.

[belkin2]

Maybe the first 3 bullets could apply, but nothing beyond that and those 3 points don't explain anything.

She is a stay at home Mom with little kids. Much of our time outside of me working is spent together with the family. When she goes out with friends I know its legit. I would know the signs and none are present.

I sometimes feel it is as simple as she just doesn't care about it or get anything out of it. She is not in touch with her sexuality and has no interest and none of her thoughts in a given day go towards it.

Here is an analogy. I don't like baseball. Find it boring and I have zero interest in it. I am exposed to it here and there by people discussing it or commercials or flipping past a game. If someone tries to strike up a conversation about it I know nothing and can't contribute and have no interest in it outside of trying to at least make polite small talk about it as a nice social gesture. I don't see how that will ever change.

On some sick level I have wanted her to have an affair. At least it would show me she thinks about sex and has some desire (although misplaced) to be with someone. Then we could work on getting it back where it belongs.

My wife loves me and shows me by trying to care for me where/when appropriate and supports me. She typically shows a genuine interest in being with me and sharing our lives together where we have common interests. She wants to raise our kids together and have a happy family filled with memories and positive and productive life lessons for our kids. I appreciate that and there is a lot of value in her moral compass.

To me thats all the icing on the cake when we take care of our relationship which should include respect, love, compassion and a safe place we can share ourselves emotionally and physically. The latter has become a tangled mess.

[Marcy33309]

Pfff forget reading about infidelity...tell your wife to read this book...

 

I read it and it has become my bible when it comes to my relationship.

 

Women need to stop being so hung up on themselves and stop treating men like puppets and children.

 

Wives owe their husbands love, sex, affection and emotional support. If they don't give it..then they deserve what they get.

[belkin2]

Been about a month since I posted in this thread so I thought I would provide an update.

 

First off, I should probably say that my days are not as dark as they were when I started this thread. We have gotten through a few tough rounds of counseling and had some ups and downs at home, but we seem to have settled into a place where we are both comfortable with the daily affection and time we spend together communicating and supporting each other about things going in our lives. Lots of changes with kids going to school and a few other things so we have been busy, but going through it all together and I feel much more positive on a daily basis.

Not a lot has changed with our sex life. It kind of started to be a weekend thing a few weeks in a row. We really have not worked on anything in terms of trying to figure out how to approach it differently and we haven't been getting physical w/out leading to sex or even talking about it like I thought she had been suggesting we do. To some extent I have been waiting to get to it in therapy as I think it will be more productive there and our therapist suggested bigger topics might be better discussed there. So I have been holding back a bit and trying to be patient. There are a lot of things we are both working on together or somewhat individually so for the past 2 weeks at least there has been no discussion at MC at all about it.

I think we have had sex 3 times since the last real blow up about everything. She was different each time in a good way. I was not able to initiate, but once we got going she was much more open and into it. Very easy for me to tell the difference. The day after one of those times I did try to bring it up and I wanted to let her know that a change I wanted to see was letting us sometimes focus on her and her being ok with that...meaning I want to bring her to climax. She didn't really want to have dialogue about it so I didn't push.

The last time I had either made some advances or said something about sex and we were hanging out, talking and touching, but after a while I could tell she was getting tired so I was ready to just forget about it. She said something about getting to it cuz it was getting late and I responded that I knew she was not there physically at that point and was not into her just doing it for me, which I knew at that point it was for the most part. So we refrained and it happened the next day on her initiating it.

This past weekend she wasn't feeling great and she also started having some spotting issues that raised concern so sex was off the table.

So this week has been a little more difficult again. She did say within a day or two of the initial spotting that she intended to get into the Dr asap if it continued. It did and she did try to contact her Drs office but had some issues getting through. She ended up getting her period a week early after a few days of that going on. We discussed it all a bit and I kind of encouraged her to still see the Dr and just make sure everything is ok. I tried to get it through to her that I wanted to make sure she took the same approach to her own health that she does to our son's because she is relentless when it comes to him, which has been great given the garbage we face with the medical community these days. I get the feeling she is taking it serious and not just waiting around. But I'll admit its a tricky subject. First and foremost it is a concern for her health...just as any concern I would have for any health condition she would face. But tied to it is our sex life, which has been on fragile ground for a long time.

This is where I feel having a much healthier and open sex life would really benefit us. There are alternatives to vaginal sex, but not even taking it that far I would love for us to be able to make out and simply be sexual and flirty with each other. Be able to talk about it and miss it together. Sometimes just simply knowing she wants it with me is enough, but as it stands because of the history here I have to wonder if its not a relief that she can't for physical reasons. I don't like having that little doubt, but I can't shake it.

Not sure I will, but I have the ability to ask to talk about this in MC next week. Our therapist typically opens the door to anything we want to talk about at the beginning.

I appreciate the progress we have made and the past few times we have had sex I have felt like it was a lot more mutual love making like I desire so I remain hopeful. Trying to stay focused on the affection we have been showing each other and see what happens if/when (god willing) her period runs its course and things return to normal.